Althouse: At the Ice Break Café...

March 9, 2020

At the Ice Break Café...

7D1CA1BE-A832-4829-B9A9-8EC4D951B6A5_1_201_a

... you can talk about whatever you want.

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184 comments:

traditionalguy said...: Has ICE broken up your sanctuary Lake.; 3/9/20, 8:39 PM
rehajm said...: Now even the horses are juicing. Another sport down...; 3/9/20, 8:41 PM
Achilles said...: Downtown Seattle is post apocalyptic.

This is so silly.; 3/9/20, 8:46 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: Putin shows that he is still relevant. Not in the silly ways that the D's have asserted, like "meddling" in the elections via Facebook memes and creating social media controversies. That was always ridiculous. But this price war with the Saudis shows Putin is willing to endure years of pain of low oil prices to get whatever it is he wants. And that isnt clear. Putting US frackers out of business is one goal, and he probably will shut down some production. But the unintended effects might be more significant. Iran suffers, and so does Venezuela, both Russian client states.; 3/9/20, 8:57 PM
narciso said...: No thats reading in backwards, salman is targeting putin and the frackers, putin rexquires at least 35-40 per barrel oil; 3/9/20, 9:00 PM
etbass said...: The media is starved for stuff to fill the 24 hour endless news cycle. There really is not enough to fill it up so you have repetition, repetition. And they generate news where there is none and they exaggerate news when there is little. And then there is the political angle. All in all, it would be better if we just had an hour of network news each day like in the days of old. Then only one hour would be dreadful rather than the whole day.; 3/9/20, 9:02 PM
mockturtle said...: When we lived on the Pend Oreille River in NE WA I had to keep pushing ice floes away from our dock during breakup so it wouldn't get torn from its moorings. I had a hefty stick for the purpose. We saw several nice docks floating by and some may have gone over the Box Canyon Dam. The PO River flows north into Canada and there are two dams, the Box Canyon and the Boundary Dam. I did a lot of kayaking there and was careful to keep my kayak secured to the dock when I wasn't using it. In summer, speedboat wakes would jostle it severely although the dog and I enjoyed the ride.; 3/9/20, 9:02 PM
mockturtle said...: Etbass, you should be watching hockey or college basketball. Gonzaga is playing.; 3/9/20, 9:04 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: All reports say this is Putin's doing. Cant believe the Saudis would choose this, and in fact it seems they wanted to cut production to keep prices where they were.; 3/9/20, 9:04 PM
narciso said...: Putin wanted the production cut, just to stabilize his economy; 3/9/20, 9:06 PM
mockturtle said...: Narciso, I've never quite understood why anyone would trust Turkey, much less allow them to join NATO. Am I naive to think that we are obliged to come to Turkey's defense in the event they are attacked?; 3/9/20, 9:07 PM
narciso said...: No they crossed into syrian territory first, and they have let their syrians through as extortion.; 3/9/20, 9:09 PM
Ken B said...: Mockturtle
Once upon a time Turkey was a very different country than it is now. California was once the great shining example, once Woody Allen was funny.; 3/9/20, 9:10 PM
narciso said...: Yes he was till 1975, probably bananas was his apex.; 3/9/20, 9:11 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: This is only one source but is consistent with everything else:

Analysts said that Russia's refusal to cut production amounted to a slap to US shale oil producers, many of which need higher oil prices to survive.

"Russia has been dropping hints that the real target is the US shale oil producers, because it is fed up with cutting output and just leaving them with space," analysts at energy consulting firm FGE wrote in a note to clients Sunday. "Such an attack may be doomed to failure unless prices remain low for a long time."

Got a direct line to Vlad with better info? Or do you dismiss all these reports as more Russia bad propaganda?; 3/9/20, 9:12 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: One look at a map tells you why Turkey was invited to join NATO in 1952. It's in a very strategic position if one's goal is to contain the Soviet Union.

Why NATO is still around is another question...; 3/9/20, 9:12 PM
mockturtle said...: Ken B: Turkey has been a thorn in the side of Europe throughout history. At least since the fall of Constantinople.; 3/9/20, 9:13 PM
mockturtle said...: Automatic_Wing. I know. At the time it seemed a good idea and yes, NATO has outlived its usefulness. IMO, Islam is a bigger threat than Russia.; 3/9/20, 9:19 PM
narciso said...: And let us not forget gulens network allowed erdogan to first purge the military of secular officers; 3/9/20, 9:21 PM
narciso said...: In both world wars they were antagonist, in the first they were outright, in the second they soft pedaled it, the cicero spy ring, after the war they were the ratline in the east to the middle east.; 3/9/20, 9:24 PM
Mark said...: The corona is here in Arlington.

The guy who has it works in one of the Amazon HQ buildings or close to it.; 3/9/20, 9:24 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: So on Feb 18 I sold my 401 k portfolio holdings so I could but into cheaper "admiral" class shares at Vanguard but after selling, couldn't figure out how to immediately buy the new ones. So I waited, more out of laziness than any market foresight, and I still haven't bought anything. Sitting on 80% cash in that retirement account. The only question is: when do I buy in again? I am thinking end of April.; 3/9/20, 9:25 PM
Andrew said...: Did anyone watch Biden's rally (if you can call it that) in Detroit? He spoke for around 10 minutes. He looked and sounded awful. He was interrupted by protesters, and was clearly frustrated. His speech is basically the same stump speech he's given numerous times. He slurred his words repeatedly. It was sad and pathetic. I can't imagine anyone, no matter how loyal a Democrat, having any hope or enthusiasm after watching that event. I don't even see how Biden can campaign for another eight months. I think the Dems really are screwed this year.; 3/9/20, 9:26 PM
D 2 said...: I disagree etbass, but not unkindly.

The issue is as you say with the inane repeating of nothingness and speculation and vacuous la la la every 10 minutes on the television, and I say that as someone who watches very limited amounts of television news in the last 20 yrs, and even before that, going back to OJ. I think I remember my turn away from tv as a source being the OJ car chase thing. It was ridiculous to me. But the habits of my youth waned slowly until 9/11 and then dropped far more quickly. Eventually you find yourself scuttling like a crab on the endless desolate beaches of the internet until you find a few sites that tell you in a frame what the television might have done for people in the 60s.

The tv news people aren’t starved. The issue is the shrinking nature of what the tv folks consider newsworthy. It’s possible to tell 1000 stories a day. This blog, and many other internet sites, do a job of finding what interests them, often pulled from various news sources. People are finding stories. Some days it can be more focused on the politics but there’s likely a 3:2 ratio or so where arts, human interest, health get a post.

I firmly believe this is better than ABC. Badly Drawn Boy sang, at the end of the old ways, and beginning of the new

And I ......... remember doing nothing on the night, Sinatra died
And the night, Jeff Buckley died, And the night, Kurt Cobain died
And the night, John Lennon died
I remember I stayed up to watch the news with everyone
And that was a lot of nights, and that was a lot of lives; 3/9/20, 9:27 PM
Calypso Facto said...: "Now even the horses are juicing. Another sport down..."

And why, exactly, do we have a Federal agency that polices horse juicing?!?; 3/9/20, 9:28 PM
Mark said...: Nog, Rom and Quark crash land in Roswell.

Hilarity ensues.; 3/9/20, 9:35 PM
DanTheMan said...: >>Sitting on 80% cash in that retirement account. The only question is: when do I buy in again? I am thinking end of April.

I bought today, even though I think the market is still moving lower. You really can't time the market, but this looks like a panic and a buying opportunity.; 3/9/20, 9:38 PM
Mark said...: It was Joan Collins in Classic, but I fell asleep before Kirk stopped McCoy from saving her from being killed.

Some kind of payback from the other day when McCoy did nothing to save Kirok's wife's life.; 3/9/20, 9:38 PM
Mark said...: NATO is not obsolete.

Putin and the Soviets would storm into Poland and the Baltics in a moment if NATO weren't around.; 3/9/20, 9:40 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Imagine if the media counted out the number of people killed each day in auto accidents, or by the regular flu virus.

one. at. a. time.

Yes - the corona virus is deadly but the perspective is causing the panic.; 3/9/20, 9:44 PM
narciso said...: I dont think it would be that easy with poland, consider how the ukraine campaign has gone pre 2017.; 3/9/20, 9:45 PM
narciso said...: The baltics might be a different story.; 3/9/20, 9:46 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: "I bought today, even though I think the market is still moving lower. You really can't time the market, but this looks like a panic and a buying opportunity."

Good call. Dow futures were down 400, and now are up 500 after Trump hinted this evening that he wants Congress to pass a payroll tax break. 900 point swing on a maybe. Markets likely up to start tomorrow, but sharp swings likely for a while.; 3/9/20, 9:47 PM
Ken B said...: Narcisco
I like Take the Money and Run.; 3/9/20, 9:49 PM
Drago said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/9/20, 9:50 PM
Drago said...: Mark: "Putin and the Soviets would storm into Poland and the Baltics in a moment if NATO weren't around."

With what specific military forces that happen to be non-US forces would NATO do this with?

Apart from the Brits, there is effectively zero military capability available from NATO "allies".

Not a single German sub can put to sea. The Germans have about 12 operational & "combat capable" tactical aircraft available so dont expect much from them. There are thousands of unfilled officer billets and they dont even have enough bullets to go around.

Yeah, NATO is a real "threat" alright.....not.

And the Germans have the "mostest" of them all.

The Finns had to rush thru emergency military funds just last year because someone finally reminded them of what happened in WW2. They had forgotten you see...; 3/9/20, 9:51 PM
Achilles said...: mockturtle said...
Narciso, I've never quite understood why anyone would trust Turkey, much less allow them to join NATO. Am I naive to think that we are obliged to come to Turkey's defense in the event they are attacked?

Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan and much of the ME have changed massively over the last several decades.

Turkey only changed very recently. It is still clinging to fantasies of being a modern country.

Afghanistan had modern cities with universities and airports in the 1970's.

Driving past the Kandahar Airport on the way out to go drag some goofball in a mud hut away from the chickens and goats sleeping under his bed is insane.

It made sense when it made sense. Not anymore. NATO is completely worthless and anachronistic.

Our treaties need to be bilateral.; 3/9/20, 9:53 PM
effinayright said...: Mark said...
NATO is not obsolete.

Putin and the Soviets would storm into Poland and the Baltics in a moment if NATO weren't around.

****************

Oh really? What would they gain by doing that?

Be specific. Try to frame your response in 21st century terms. You know, eliminating farmland, natural resources, and the other old reasons...

Then tell us how countries with high IT sectors would continue to willingly function under Russian rule, which is much, much weaker than the old USSR.

Then tell us how Russia could afford to keep hundreds of thousands of troops there, when Russia is already a relatively impoverished country.

Explain why the old USSR couldn't hold onto Afghanistan, but could cower Poland and the Baltics, countries much more advanced than the sister-fucking towel heads.

Come on! Give it a go!; 3/9/20, 9:56 PM
Mark said...: Charles Napier, the hippie Adam on The Way to Eden, gets a call back for DS9 when Nog and Rom and Quark (and Odo) are captured in Roswell.; 3/9/20, 9:58 PM
Achilles said...: Mark said...
NATO is not obsolete.

Putin and the Soviets would storm into Poland and the Baltics in a moment if NATO weren't around.

oh my goodness.

Russia has trouble invading half of Georgia.

What they did in Crimea happened because they have 90+% popular support there and they didn't have to invade.

30$ a barrel oil will make even that level of commitment a pipe dream.

I do think we should have a bilateral agreement with Poland though and some of their neighbors.

We don't have troops in Germany to protect Germany by the way. At least not the way people think.; 3/9/20, 9:58 PM
narciso said...: He was also the treacherous murdoch in rambo 2; 3/9/20, 9:59 PM
Mark said...: I've always thought that Megan Gallagher should have been in more things.; 3/9/20, 10:05 PM
narciso said...: She was more so in the 90s; 3/9/20, 10:07 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: We traveled across two states with six children for spring break and while en route some of our family members said they weren’t going to come see us because they are “social distancing” and “avoiding gatherings.” There are no cases where we live and even if there were it’s not like we’re going to make out with them or something for the couple of hours they were going to come have dinner with us at our Air BnB. I’m going to be pissed about that for some time.; 3/9/20, 10:08 PM
FullMoon said...: Did anyone watch Biden's rally (if you can call it that) in Detroit? He spoke for around 10 minutes. He looked and sounded awful.

I did, because it was linked by someone last night. First, he comes out too early, standing behind a preacher(?0 giving a prelude to an introductory speech, who is not aware Biden is behind him. Then Biden stats kinda normal but rehearsed . After he flubs the "re-elected/Donald Trump" thing he really goes downhill. He is worn out..

If anyone watches it, you will notice how he yells"FOLKS!" inappropriately. Weird.; 3/9/20, 10:08 PM
D. said...: >NATO is not obsolete.

Putin and the Soviets would storm into Poland and the Baltics in a moment if NATO weren't around.<

OK Boomer; 3/9/20, 10:09 PM
FullMoon said...: I’m going to be pissed about that for some time.

Don't be angry. They are frightened. So much doom and gloom , information and mis-information. Young grocery cashier told me her twitter is full of claims N.Korea sent infected people to U.S. to spread virus.

One of the peripherals works at hospital auxiliary. People canceling appointments all day.

Commuter traffic in a.m. and p.m. eerily free-flowing do to lack of traffic.

Cruise ship supposed to dock at San Francisco turned away, allowed to dock at Oakland.

It is like the classic twilight zone episode when power failure has neighborhood thinking war (or aliens?) have come.; 3/9/20, 10:16 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: "I’m going to be pissed about that for some time."

Similar deal. We're having family in from NYC, parents and other siblings from midwest, one college kid from the southeast, etc this weekend for a long-planned event that is also at a public place. Now the air travelers are uncertain. My folks are 78 and 83, so I do worry about exposure from whatever may be in the NYC subway or on college campuses. I suspect we will all take the usual precautions and make the best of it.; 3/9/20, 10:24 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: Cruise ship supposed to dock at San Francisco turned away, allowed to dock at Oakland.

How does Oakland feel about that? Too disease-ridden for the human feces-covered sidewalks of San Fran, but A-OK for Oakland!; 3/9/20, 10:27 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: I understand that people are scared, and forgive them for it. What I have a hard time forgiving is how illogical and irrational the fear is, and how their illogic is more important to them than their family.

When people stop driving unnecessarily, drinking, and having casual sex, then I’ll believe that they are actually interested in avoiding behaviors which are statistically relevant to their safety.; 3/9/20, 10:31 PM
narciso said...: The argument is its closer to travis afb unlike san francisco which is closer to alaweda (as chekhov put it); 3/9/20, 10:32 PM
stephen cooper said...: I am in a good mood tonight so I am going to just say what needs to be said.

Think about how old you were the first time you really wanted to pray for someone to be healed.

Were you young, were you old, were you middle aged?

Now think about this.

No matter who you are, God will heal anyone you want God to heal.

Trust me on that.

There is nothing easier than praying to God to heal someone.

All you need is to have love in your heart, God answers the prayers of those who have love in their hearts.

You may think I am wrong, well maybe I - maybe "I" am wrong ....

but God does not care if I am right or wrong, God is going to listen to you if you have love in your heart, whether I am right or wrong.

Proverbs 8, Ephesians 1 to 3.

Saint Elizabeth of the Trinity said it again and again, it is so easy to be heard in prayer by God because God wants us to want what God wants ..... and God loves everybody we love.

I am in a good mood tonight, so I am gonna tell you --- maybe I am right maybe I am wrong in what I just said.
but .... even if I am someone you are right not to respect ...... God loves everybody I love.
AND THAT IS TRUE FOR YOU TOO !!!!!!!

Magna est veritas et praevalebit !!!!!; 3/9/20, 10:34 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: We’re traveling at some trouble and expense from Texas to New Jersey next weekend for a bat mitzvah + reception that’s been planned for a year — but the mother is still wringing her hands about whether she is going to hold it or postpone it. It’s a week and a half away.

Can we just all decide that we’re going to take sensible precautions and act like rational human beings? The hysteria is far worse than the very limited scope of the disease.; 3/9/20, 10:35 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Mark:

NATO is not obsolete.

Putin and the Soviets would storm into Poland and the Baltics in a moment if NATO weren't around.

Oh boy. What "Soviets?" And what possible advantage would Russia gain by launching a costly military endeavor against Poland that would galvanize world opinion against it? NATO was created to counter a threat that doesn't exit anymore. I'm not sure how much more obsolete than that you can get.; 3/9/20, 10:39 PM
J. Farmer said...: @I Have Misplaced My Pants:

Can we just all decide that we’re going to take sensible precautions and act like rational human beings? The hysteria is far worse than the very limited scope of the disease.

That's what everyone I know keeps saying. What is the "hysteria" you are seeing? Avoiding large gatherings is a "sensible precaution."; 3/9/20, 10:42 PM
narciso said...: Putin doesnt much care about public opinion, but there is little upside in invading poland, specially since the regime is sympatico in at least a few points.; 3/9/20, 10:42 PM
mockturtle said...: How does Oakland feel about that? Too disease-ridden for the human feces-covered sidewalks of San Fran, but A-OK for Oakland!

First, they lose their football team. Now they're getting the virus patients that SF refuses. No respect for Oakland.; 3/9/20, 10:42 PM
FullMoon said...: Blogger BarrySanders20 said...

Cruise ship supposed to dock at San Francisco turned away, allowed to dock at Oakland.

How does Oakland feel about that? Too disease-ridden for the human feces-covered sidewalks of San Fran, but A-OK for Oakland!

Pretty sure Oakland feels superior too the hysterical weenies running S.F.; 3/9/20, 10:44 PM
J. Farmer said...: When people stop driving unnecessarily, drinking, and having casual sex, then I’ll believe that they are actually interested in avoiding behaviors which are statistically relevant to their safety.

Social distancing isn't just about not getting sick. It's about not spreading it if you do happen to be infected.; 3/9/20, 10:44 PM
J. Farmer said...: @narciso:

Putin doesnt much care about public opinion, but there is little upside in invading poland, specially since the regime is sympatico in at least a few points.

What I meant by "world opinion" is that such an action by Russia would certainly spark a counter reaction, and this would have to be factored into any prospective benefit of an invasion, which I don't see anyway.

One simple way to illustrate the imbalance in power between the US and Russia is to ask where the conflicts between Russia and the US are. On the Mexican border? The Canadian border? No, they're on the Russian border.; 3/9/20, 10:47 PM
narciso said...: when all you have are hammers; 3/9/20, 10:48 PM
FullMoon said...: Avoiding large gatherings is a "sensible precaution."

Yeah, and many of the people preparing to hunker down are waiting in long lines with a bunch of strangers for Costco to open so they can rush in and congregate around the toilet paper pallets..and breathe all over each other.; 3/9/20, 10:51 PM
Gahrie said...: NATO was created to counter a threat that doesn't exit anymore.

Until fairly recently I still supported NATO. While I agree the chances of Russia invading Europe are very slim, I thought that NATO was still useful as a prepositioning of American troops if needed in a crisis, and frankly to prevent a German dominated Europe. I still think we should keep American troops forward positioned, but I now think they should be in the UK or Israel. Continental Europe resents us, and will soon have some very serious problems to deal with.; 3/9/20, 10:51 PM
Achilles said...: J. Farmer said...

That's what everyone I know keeps saying. What is the "hysteria" you are seeing? Avoiding large gatherings is a "sensible precaution."

Downtown Seattle is post apocalyptic.

Schools are closing.

Colleges are going completely online. Buy stock in coursera. They are better at online courses than the University of Washington and cost about a 100th as much per course.

Businesses took the week off.

30$ a barrel oil.

Jay Inslee has decided he is going to try to force the state to self quarantine. He is a complete idiot though.; 3/9/20, 10:52 PM
FullMoon said...: When people stop driving unnecessarily, drinking, and having casual sex, then I’ll believe that they are actually interested in avoiding behaviors which are statistically relevant to their safety.

C'mon, man! You think they are using fear of death as an excuse to avoid being with you guys for a couple of hours. You seem all right to me, but I don't really know you. What have you done to deserve such dis respect? Be honest now...; 3/9/20, 10:54 PM
Achilles said...: Gahrie said...

Continental Europe resents us, and will soon have some very serious problems to deal with.

We should move our troops to countries that take their borders seriously.; 3/9/20, 10:55 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Gahrie:

While I agree the chances of Russia invading Europe are very slim, I thought that NATO was still useful as a prepositioning of American troops if needed in a crisis, and frankly to prevent a German dominated Europe.

A couple things: we already have a German dominated Europe. It's called the EU. Also, we can station troops in other countries without having a mutual defense treaty.; 3/9/20, 10:56 PM
FullMoon said...: Jay Inslee has decided he is going to try to force the state to self quarantine. He is a complete idiot though.

Well, If (according to Drudge) Italy can quarantine the whole country, a moron can certainly do his best to stay competetive..; 3/9/20, 10:56 PM
Gahrie said...: One simple way to illustrate the imbalance in power between the US and Russia is to ask where the conflicts between Russia and the US are. On the Mexican border? The Canadian border? No, they're on the Russian border.

The scariest thing about Russia is that they are a former Superpower regulated to a Second World economy and if oil continues to drop, perhaps a Third World economy. My suspicion is that Russian corruption and inefficiency is as bad as Soviet corruption and inefficiency was, and that their nuclear weapons are inoperable. Events on their aircraft carrier seem to suggest this.; 3/9/20, 10:57 PM
J. Farmer said...: Anytime I hear people making the "media hysteria" argument to dismiss the threat, I always have the same response. The media can be hyping and sensationalizing and it can be a serious threat.; 3/9/20, 10:58 PM
narciso said...: Yes they are about a month behind the mark, italy is. Washington probably two weekd behind.; 3/9/20, 10:59 PM
Gahrie said...: A couple things: we already have a German dominated Europe. It's called the EU. Also, we can station troops in other countries without having a mutual defense treaty.

We could. However I have no problem with having such treaties with our allies, especially Israel, the U.K. and Japan.; 3/9/20, 10:59 PM
J. Farmer said...: OT: how do you think the US-Taliban deal would have gone down on these pages had it been negotiated by the Obama administration?; 3/9/20, 11:00 PM
Gahrie said...: We should move our troops to countries that take their borders seriously.

As I said, the U.K. or Israel.; 3/9/20, 11:00 PM
narciso said...: Give me an example the main stream media got right in the last three years.; 3/9/20, 11:01 PM
FullMoon said...: The Russians got to him:
Liberal California Governor Praises Trump And Pence For Response To Coronavirus (VIDEO); 3/9/20, 11:01 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Gahrie:

We could. However I have no problem with having such treaties with our allies, especially Israel, the U.K. and Japan.

Agree with you on UK and Japan but not on Israel. They are not really an ally in the traditional sense. We have no mutual defense pact with Israel, and they have never contributed troops to American military operations.; 3/9/20, 11:01 PM
FullMoon said...: OT: how do you think the US-Taliban deal would have gone down on these pages had it been negotiated by the Obama administration?

Knowing absolutely nothing about it, I can guarantee that we don't trust them , and they don't trust us..; 3/9/20, 11:02 PM
Gahrie said...: OT: how do you think the US-Taliban deal would have gone down on these pages had it been negotiated by the Obama administration?

Obama would have been savaged. But it would have been the right the thing to do.

As far as I can tell, the only solution to Afghanistan (and Western civilization has been looking for one for several hundred years) is to build a huge wall around the country and let them prey on each other.; 3/9/20, 11:02 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Gahrie:

Obama would have been savaged. But it would have been the right the thing to do.

Agree with the first but not the second. I never thought a deal with the Taliban made any sense, and we didn't need it in the first place. We could've simply withdrawn. The deal isn't worth the paper it's written on, because all parties seem to recognize that it's merely a face-saving effort by the US to pretend it's not withdrawing ignobly.; 3/9/20, 11:06 PM
Gahrie said...: We have no mutual defense pact with Israel, and they have never contributed troops to American military operations.

Their military is usually a little pre-occupied...., and they have offered in the past and been turned down.

Look, I'm still pissed about the USS Liberty. I think Israel still owes us a full accounting and a proper apology. But, unlike you, I believe supporting and befriending Israel is in our interests as a nation.; 3/9/20, 11:07 PM
Gahrie said...: The deal isn't worth the paper it's written on, because all parties seem to recognize that it's merely a face-saving effort by the US to pretend it's not withdrawing ignobly.

Face saving matters there and in many parts of the world.; 3/9/20, 11:08 PM
Arashi said...: If you wish insight on Afghanistan, you have to look no further than the writings of Alfred Thayer Mahan. He was most insigtful on a great many things regarding world strategies and what to avoid.; 3/9/20, 11:08 PM
FullMoon said...: Cool, calm, collected
Pelosi pops Trump: "Civilization as we know it is at stake"; 3/9/20, 11:09 PM
Gahrie said...: The deal isn't worth the paper it's written on, because all parties seem to recognize that it's merely a face-saving effort by the US to pretend it's not withdrawing ignobly.

One of the reasons that North Korea is still a problem today is the fact that we never signed one of those pieces of paper.; 3/9/20, 11:10 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Gahrie:

But, unlike you, I believe supporting and befriending Israel is in our interests as a nation.

Pedantic point, but I would never use the verb "befriend" to describe international relations. Also, while it is obvious that a US partnership is extremely important to Israel, I don't really see what great benefit we get from it. I think the US-Israel alliance is better understood in cultural terms than national interest terms.; 3/9/20, 11:11 PM
Drago said...: Gahrie: "As far as I can tell, the only solution to Afghanistan (and Western civilization has been looking for one for several hundred years) is to build a huge wall around the country and let them prey on each other."

The problem with that is the national boundaries were set by the 1 Brit and it split 2 large peoples that inhabit both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Now, if you said you wanted to build walls around those tribal areas, you might find more takers...; 3/9/20, 11:11 PM
Arashi said...: As for Ms. Pelosi - it is a wonder that she can manage at all considering the levels of botox, alcohol and senility that she embraces. That, coupled with a very dark soul make her a terrible work indeed.; 3/9/20, 11:12 PM
Narayanan said...: Not only is NATO obsolete, Europe too is obsolete. Europe is irrelevant at this point for Western Civilization.
Putin Russia probably want to let bygones be bygones but Europe holding grudge?
All the Marxist are in Europe and USA.; 3/9/20, 11:12 PM
J. Farmer said...: Face saving matters there and in many parts of the world.

That is just a variant of the "credibility" argument, which I think is highly overrated.

One of the reasons that North Korea is still a problem today is the fact that we never signed one of those pieces of paper.

We've signed several of those pieces of paper. The Clinton administration negotiated the Agreed Framework, the Bush administration blew it up in 2002 and spent three years negotiating a watered-down version of the Agreed Framework through the Six-Party Talks. The fundamental flaw in American strategic thinking is that we sill believe denuclearization of the peninsula is the goal. I think that is ludicrous. It was the same reason efforts to negotiate with Iran kept hitting a brick wall because the US has a position that is untenable to the Iranian side: no native nuclear enrichment.; 3/9/20, 11:15 PM
Churchy LaFemme: said...: Pedantic point, but I would never use the verb "befriend" to describe international relations. Also, while it is obvious that a US partnership is extremely important to Israel, I don't really see what great benefit we get from it. I think the US-Israel alliance is better understood in cultural terms than national interest terms.

Isn't that almost the definition of befriend then?; 3/9/20, 11:15 PM
narciso said...: That line from those slasher film, the killer is calling from inside the house, maybe 5 years ago they required a base o
In afghanistan and iraq; 3/9/20, 11:16 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Narayanan:

Not only is NATO obsolete, Europe too is obsolete. Europe is irrelevant at this point for Western Civilization.

Honest question, what does it mean to say that Europe "is obsolete" and "irrelevant at this point for Western Civilization?"; 3/9/20, 11:17 PM
J. Farmer said...: Isn't that almost the definition of befriend then?

Well, I admitted it was a pedantic point, but I am speaking more in the Charles de Gaulle notion of, "No nation has friends only interests."; 3/9/20, 11:18 PM
Narayanan said...: What is good source of information about Liberty incident?; 3/9/20, 11:18 PM
Arashi said...: One overlooked item as regards Israel, is that they actually get to test out some of our weapons systems in actual real world scenarios. Thus we get real data that can be sued to make said weapons systems better. It is a bit cold hearted I admit, but it is one of the benefits we looked forward to when I was in the Navy. We did wish to have an accounting for the Liberty, but the weapons testing was a net good as far as we were concerned.; 3/9/20, 11:19 PM
Narayanan said...: I mean They don't have the wits for survival.; 3/9/20, 11:21 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Narayanan:

I mean They don't have the wits for survival.

If that's the case, we're going right down with them. All of Europe's worst ideas about human egalitarianism and free movement of goods and people are shared by American elites.; 3/9/20, 11:28 PM
Narayanan said...: @ J. Farmer said.
_____&&&&&
Did it not come out recently that the Pentagon have been lying to Congress? And Americans.

The story did not stick around for long!; 3/9/20, 11:29 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Narayanan:

Did it not come out recently that the Pentagon have been lying to Congress? And Americans.

The story did not stick around for long!

True, but I also think that's a reflection of how cynical an outlook Americans have on Afghanistan. Nobody cares and nobody pays attention. I was taken to task by Achilles for white knighting over a couple of recent deaths in Afghanistan. Personally, I find it unconscionable to send young American service members over to die fighting in a war that the American people long ago abandoned.; 3/9/20, 11:32 PM
Inga said...: “An annual intelligence report that has been postponed without explanation by President Donald Trump’s administration warns that the U.S. remains unprepared for a global pandemic, two senior government officials who have reviewed a draft of the report tell TIME.

The office of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) was scheduled to deliver the Worldwide Threat Assessment to the House Intelligence Committee on Feb. 12 and the hearing has not been rescheduled, according to staffers and members of the House and Senate intelligence committees. The DNI’s office declined requests for a comment on the status of the report. Democratic staffers say they do not expect the report to be released any time soon.

The final draft of the report remains classified but the two officials who have read it say it contains warnings similar to those in the last installment, which was published on January 29, 2019. The 2019 report warns on page 29 that, “The United States will remain vulnerable to the next flu pandemic or large-scale outbreak of a contagious disease that could lead to massive rates of death and disability, severely affect the world economy, strain international resources, and increase calls on the United States for support.”‘

Time.com; 3/9/20, 11:33 PM
narciso said...: You dont want to anything about them when theyre in this country or europe, in fact you give excuses for what they do,; 3/9/20, 11:34 PM
Narayanan said...: USA has slight breathing space now if Trump get reelected and Brexit is not botched.

Marxism is culmination outgrowth of Continental philosophy.; 3/9/20, 11:35 PM
J. Farmer said...: You dont want to anything about them when theyre in this country or europe, in fact you give excuses for what they do,

Huh?; 3/9/20, 11:35 PM
narciso said...: The solution is to vote in a marxist revolutionary, whose organizers make no bones about their course of action.; 3/9/20, 11:41 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Narayanan:

USA has slight breathing space now if Trump get reelected and Brexit is not botched.

Marxism is culmination outgrowth of Continental philosophy.

If the US has any breathing space at all, I agree it's slight. I don't see much in "Marxism" in explaining Europe's current predicament. The elites of Europe are broadly in agreement with the elites of the US. That is, a combination of extreme social liberalism and state-capitalism. Free movement of people and capital across international borders has long been a hobby horse of libertarians.; 3/9/20, 11:41 PM
Narayanan said...: to send young American service members over to die fighting in a war that the American people long ago abandoned.
_____&&&&&&
Were American people even consulted about the war?
Problem is right there. Close parallel for USA wars in ME would be Wilson committing war last century.; 3/9/20, 11:43 PM
J. Farmer said...: The solution is to vote in a marxist revolutionary, whose organizers make no bones about their course of action.

As opposed to voting in Trump, who says he wants immigrants to come in the "largest numbers ever." Demographics will do much worse damage to this country than a "marxist revolutionary" who would face significant institutional opposition. If there is one person the Establishment hates more than Donald Trump, it's Bernie Sanders.; 3/9/20, 11:43 PM
narciso said...: Well legal immigration would be a start that would go back to 1980,; 3/9/20, 11:46 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Narayanan:

Were American people even consulted about the war?
Problem is right there. Close parallel for USA wars in ME would be Wilson committing war last century.

I am not sure how American people would be consulted, since we don't decide national policy by referendum. I don't know how much of a problem that is. I was opposed to the Afghanistan War, but it was hugely popular at the time, because the country was full of blood lust over 9/11. It has since been used as a campaign issue. Obama stupidly declared Afghanistan the "good war" and committed to a futile troop surge, all in an attempt to counter accusations of being "soft on terror."; 3/9/20, 11:47 PM
FullMoon said...: The 2019 report warns on page 29 that, “The United States will remain vulnerable to the next flu pandemic or large-scale outbreak of a contagious disease that could lead to massive rates of death and disability, severely affect the world economy, strain international resources, and increase calls on the United States for support.”‘

So, the unprepared rest of the world will suffer massive death and disability and then increase expectations of the United States to support them. Good thing Trump has been encouraging the rest of the world to man up and pay their fair share.

The current virus, which has shut down other countries has not and will not result in massive death and disability here. In order for deaths to be "massive," corona gonna have to out perform the usual flu numbers. Of course, to make it seem massive, no doubt other flu deaths will be attributed to corona..; 3/9/20, 11:49 PM
J. Farmer said...: Well legal immigration would be a start that would go back to 1980,

Again, not exactly sure what you're saying in this sentence. But I would much rather prefer the immigration we had after the Johnson–Reed Act passed in 1924. Legal immigration hasn't exactly been a boon to South Florida.; 3/9/20, 11:50 PM
Birkel said...: Here, Smug, let me help you:

"...I don't see much in "Marxism" in explaining Europe's current predicament. The elites of Europe are broadly in agreement with the elites of the US. That is, a combination of extreme social liberalism and state-capitalism."

Shorter version:

"...Marxism... state-capitalism."

Hope that helps.; 3/9/20, 11:51 PM
J. Farmer said...: @FullMoon:

The current virus, which has shut down other countries has not and will not result in massive death and disability here. In order for deaths to be "massive," corona gonna have to out perform the usual flu numbers. Of course, to make it seem massive, no doubt other flu deaths will be attributed to corona..

Again, getting sick and dying is not the only concern here. If a large amount of people get infected and new ICU or other critical care beds, healthcare resources could seize up very quickly.; 3/9/20, 11:51 PM
J. Farmer said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/9/20, 11:52 PM
Birkel said...: You see, capitalism is a word created by Marx when he described his labor theory of value.

And you admit Europe has an economy you would describe with Marxist language as controlled by the state.

Does that help?; 3/9/20, 11:53 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Birkel:

Shorter version:

"...Marxism... state-capitalism."

Hope that helps.

Okay. But then you would have to conclude that every country on earth is Marxist, since every country practices state-capitalism.; 3/9/20, 11:54 PM
narciso said...: Hey maybe they should have focused on that? Instead of this idiotic russia business, Also a little less focusing on gun violence and climate chsmge from the cdc.; 3/9/20, 11:54 PM
Quaestor said...: State capitalism is a convenient fiction.; 3/9/20, 11:56 PM
mockturtle said...: My sister suggested we all chip in and send Congress on a long cruise.; 3/9/20, 11:56 PM
narciso said...: Same with the fda reports that circumscribrd testing regimes; 3/9/20, 11:56 PM
narciso said...: Heh, it might be good to scuttle it on the way out of port.; 3/9/20, 11:57 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Quaestor:

State capitalism is a convenient fiction.

What, in your estimation, is the inconvenient truth?; 3/9/20, 11:58 PM
narciso said...: How many countries have state dominance of health care systems again, which is the yltimate system of contrl.; 3/9/20, 11:59 PM
J. Farmer said...: My sister suggested we all chip in and send Congress on a long cruise.

Congress is one of those very peculiar institutions. Everybody jokes about its perennial low approval ratings and the amount of reelections. One of the reasons is that while people tend to have a negative view of Congress as a whole, they tend to rate their own representatives positively.; 3/10/20, 12:00 AM
narciso said...: Ultimate system of control,; 3/10/20, 12:00 AM
Birkel said...: I am for free markets and free people.

One cannot, in good faith, make the argument that establishing rules to establish fair play and avoid real market failures (e.g. tragedy of the commons and other game theoretical failures) would mean state control of business. I would prefer fewer rules (Thanks Trump!) and decentralized rule making (Yay, federalism!) but that is a different argument.

You have a failing when it comes to understanding these matters. You fall for the Leftist Collectivist nomenclature that confuses your thinking. Nothing wrong with that. It's common and no reason to Smug.; 3/10/20, 12:01 AM
walter said...: Smug points out darkness, advocates for more...because doomed anyways.
Smart!; 3/10/20, 12:02 AM
J. Farmer said...: @narciso:

How many countries have state dominance of health care systems again, which is the yltimate system of contrl.

They all do. Do you know of a counterexample? The country that is often singled out for its exemplary healthcare system is Singapore, which also has a state-dominated healthcare system.; 3/10/20, 12:02 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Birkel:

You have a failing when it comes to understanding these matters. You fall for the Leftist Collectivist nomenclature that confuses your thinking. Nothing wrong with that. It's common and no reason to Smug.

Me disagreeing with you is not a sign that I have failed to understand the matters. "Free markets and free people' is also Reason magazine's motto, and they basically support open borders.

But I tell you what, being for "free people and free minds," try winning an election on that agenda. The most libertarian candidate in the race in 2016 was Rand Paul, and he went nowhere. Trump bucked GOP convention by promising to protect Social Security and Medicare and rejecting Ryan's voucherization scheme.; 3/10/20, 12:07 AM
J. Farmer said...: @walter:

Smug points out darkness, advocates for more...because doomed anyways.
Smart!

First, only Birkel can use "smug" as a proper noun, so stay in your line. As for the rest of your comment, I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. My suggestion: spend more time on clarity of writing and less on futile attempts to sound clever.; 3/10/20, 12:09 AM
narciso said...: We could return to system as existed before 1928, thats as free as your likely to get, the more state dominance the less freedom,; 3/10/20, 12:11 AM
Birkel said...: Reason forgot theirs. They forgot that the theory they advocate would lead - in theory - to a worldwide equality of living. That means US standards down significantly and ROW standards up marginally, if at all. IOW, those people are fools.

I'm not advocating for the ROW. So you can leave that hobbyhorse elsewhere.

You don't even understand what I'm saying enough to disagree intelligently. It's ok. You fell back to the nomenclature you understand because that is the hammer you have. Again, you are confused enough that you cannot even distinguish why you think you're disagreeing with me.; 3/10/20, 12:14 AM
Nichevo said...: J. Farmer said...
@Gahrie:

While I agree the chances of Russia invading Europe are very slim, I thought that NATO was still useful as a prepositioning of American troops if needed in a crisis, and frankly to prevent a German dominated Europe.

A couple things: we already have a German dominated Europe. It's called the EU. Also, we can station troops in other countries without having a mutual defense treaty.

3/9/20, 10:56 PM

we can station troops in other countries without having a mutual defense treaty.

Not to joke about calling such forces invaders, but it smacks of the foreign meddling you a)decry and b)wish to hamper our ability to do if we choose. I thought you didn't want troops or commitments (maybe you thread some needle here) in precisely those countries we didn't have equal treaties with, which would be few.; 3/10/20, 12:14 AM
Gahrie said...: I find it unconscionable to send young American service members over to die fighting in a war that the American people long ago abandoned.

That's a little harsh. They haven't abandoned it, they just forgot about it.; 3/10/20, 12:14 AM
narciso said...: But you want the government to intervene as as much as possible because they know best,; 3/10/20, 12:15 AM
walter said...: Smug indeed.
I assure you I will give your suggestions appropriate consideration.; 3/10/20, 12:16 AM
Ralph L said...: they have never contributed troops to American military operations.

Japan only did in 1941-5.

My Dad was in the Aegean during the Six day war and was privy to USN comms during the Liberty incident. He was not a fan of Israel for decades.; 3/10/20, 12:16 AM
J. Farmer said...: @narciso:

But you want the government to intervene as as much as possible because they know best,

That has never been my position, and I have never said anything remotely like that. My point has always been that using big abstract terms (though occasionally unavoidable) is not a very good way of accurate describing the way the world works.

I believe in the same system they have everywhere: the mixed economy. Precisely what mix is up for each individual society to determine and continue to determine as they progress.; 3/10/20, 12:19 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Nichevo:

Not to joke about calling such forces invaders, but it smacks of the foreign meddling you a)decry and b)wish to hamper our ability to do if we choose. I thought you didn't want troops or commitments (maybe you thread some needle here) in precisely those countries we didn't have equal treaties with, which would be few.

I made that point in response to Gahrie saying that "a prepositioning of American troops if needed in a crisis" was one benefit of NATO. I merely pointed out that if we wanted that, we don't need NATO to do it.; 3/10/20, 12:23 AM
narciso said...: That wasnt our experience for nearly a century and a half, woodrow wilson who came closest to impose american apartheid put us on the path we're on.; 3/10/20, 12:24 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Ralph L:

Japan only did in 1941-5.

The Japanese Self-Defense Force was present in Iraq between 2004 and 2006. And Japan has specific limitations on its military capacity as an outcome of WWII.; 3/10/20, 12:25 AM
narciso said...: Its a joke marvin, lighten up.; 3/10/20, 12:26 AM
walter said...: Berno don't want no supplemental insurance option per Singaporeans.; 3/10/20, 12:27 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Birkel:

You don't even understand what I'm saying enough to disagree intelligently

I understand your position quite well. I know a lot of libertarian types. My question to them, as to you, is how do you get there? You're describing a society that has never really existed. And as I have said repeatedly, I don't see much benefit in talking about big abstract ideas since it always come down to individual cases.; 3/10/20, 12:28 AM
Nichevo said...: Blogger J. Farmer said...
@Gahrie:

But, unlike you, I believe supporting and befriending Israel is in our interests as a nation.

Pedantic point, but I would never use the verb "befriend" to describe international relations. Also, while it is obvious that a US partnership is extremely important to Israel, I don't really see what great benefit we get from it. I think the US-Israel alliance is better understood in cultural terms than national interest terms.

3/9/20, 11:11 PM

To the degree that there is a US-Israeli special relationship which is mutually beneficial and exceeds the duration, kind and degree of current China-Israel or Russia-Israel cooperation, Israel, but also the US, and unequivocally the US, net benefit more from the US-I relationship than if the key linkage were R-I or C-I.

Did I lose you? Israel is better inside our tent pissing out than outside our tent pissing in. For all we know, the delay in Chinese AWACS capabilities occasioned by Israel laboring to provide, then denying them at our behest, the Phalcon radar array system, after formally being encouraged to promote their defense tech internationally, could have avoided some unforeseen conflict in the South China Sea. Taiwan, HK, Spratlys, Korea, maybe Hainan Island at the time of the EP-3E incident.

China would advance on the US considerably if Israel and China had the tech and political interchange that we do. One reason that doesn't happen is special relationships, or as sometimes known, friendships and cultural commonality.; 3/10/20, 12:30 AM
J. Farmer said...: That wasnt our experience for nearly a century and a half, woodrow wilson who came closest to impose american apartheid put us on the path we're on.

Do you understand how starting a sentence with "that" without an antecedent can be confusing. What wasn't"our experience for nearly a century and a half?"

Its a joke marvin, lighten up.

Oh, sorry. Your scintillating humor must've gone right over my head.; 3/10/20, 12:30 AM
Yancey Ward said...: "So on Feb 18 I sold my 401 k portfolio holdings so I could but into cheaper "admiral" class shares at Vanguard but after selling, couldn't figure out how to immediately buy the new ones. So I waited, more out of laziness than any market foresight, and I still haven't bought anything. Sitting on 80% cash in that retirement account. The only question is: when do I buy in again? I am thinking end of April."

I wrote a comment last night about my retirement accounts that was similar to this. Because I took health insurance in December, I had to show at least a poverty level income to qualify for the Obamacare subsidies. When I contacted my old company's plan administrator, I found out that I couldn't set up an SEPP since I no longer worked there, so I rolled the entire amount over into an IRA and a Roth IRA in the first week of February (I had some after-tax money in the 401K that went into the Roth). Since the IRAs are completely self-directed, I no longer had to depend on funds of funds, but I had given any thought about what to do with what is a large sum of money, so I just decided to put it into a intermediate term bond ETF until I could make more concrete decisions. Of course, being a procrastinator, I still hadn't done anything by last night- a good decision because since the fund gained 4%+ since I bought it.

Given that bonds have run so far so fast, I sold it all this morning, and started buying some energy stocks. Just a small allocation at this point, but $30/bbl oil isn't sustainable, and if it drops more and the energy stocks with it, I will just buy more. I allocated about 5% today, and the market keeps falling, I will continue to allocate it where I see the value. I don't need this money for a long time, if ever- but I think there are opportunities presenting themselves in this panic.; 3/10/20, 12:31 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Nichevo:

One reason that doesn't happen is special relationships, or as sometimes known, friendships and cultural commonality.

The last sentence from my comment you copied: "I think the US-Israel alliance is better understood in cultural terms than national interest terms."; 3/10/20, 12:32 AM
J. Farmer said...: p.s. Though many strategists do support a close partnership with Israel because the country's power projection capabilities in the region. The US-Israel relationship didn't really start getting close until after the Six Day War, but you could also point out the rise of the evangelical voting bloc in the 70s. Evangelicals tend to be more pro-Israel than most Israelis, but of course they have theological motives that most Israelis would reject.; 3/10/20, 12:35 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: “One overlooked item as regards Israel, is that they actually get to test out some of our weapons systems in actual real world scenarios. Thus we get real data that can be sued to make said weapons systems better. It is a bit cold hearted I admit, but it is one of the benefits we looked forward to when I was in the Navy.”

Maybe as important is that there is quite a bit of codevelopment. We start with armaments, throw them to the Israelis, and they very quickly wring the bugs out. Our Phalanx system, active laser defenses, PATRIOT system, UAVs, etc all have had significant Israeli improvements.

When I was working as a patent attorney for a large electronics company, we had development centers around the world (London, Germany, Moscow, St Petersburg, Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Tel Aviv, etc). The Russians would brilliantly send me a new equation. I would have to tell them that equations weren’t patentable, so send me a use of the equation, which they found hard. The Israelis though were almost scary. If we needed a product yesterday, we asked the Israeli development center and we would get in done amazingly quickly. Unfortunately, there would be almost no documentation, and it would be usually cobbled together. But it would work, and it would be fast. I solved the documentation problem by emphasizing the money that they would make ($2500 to file, $1500 when issued).

If nothing else we really really want Israeli engineers work with us on our armaments. Better than anyone else in the world, if we throw it to them, they will make it work. Something that the Russians and Chinese don’t have (my experience is that the Chinese were good methodical hardware engineers, though not that inventive, but only second rate with software - which is where Indians excelled). (Sorry about all the national stereotypes, but over time, they were striking).; 3/10/20, 12:38 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Bruce Hayden:

If nothing else we really really want Israeli engineers work with us on our armaments.

Why wouldn't they? Israel needs the US much more than the US needs Israel. And most of our special relationship with Israel consists of sending them an obscene amount of corporate welfare and defending them against any international opposition to the occupation. For the life of me, I cannot understand why people say insane things like there should be "no daylight" between the US and Israel.; 3/10/20, 12:46 AM
Etienne said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/10/20, 3:16 AM
rhhardin said...: God To Flood Earth with Hand Sanitizer
https://babylonbee.com/news; 3/10/20, 4:34 AM
Rusty said...: "I made that point in response to Gahrie saying that "a prepositioning of American troops if needed in a crisis" was one benefit of NATO. I merely pointed out that if we wanted that, we don't need NATO to do it."
The need for NATO was more of a logistical concern than any expectation that the concerned countries could put up any sort of fight.
As an example the lead in for the first Iraq war took longer than the actual war itself. You'll notice that no country in Europe fielded a special built anti tank aircraft.; 3/10/20, 6:08 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: @Farmer - no doubt tat you are right, that Israel needs the US more than we need them, at least in the material world.

I do disagree though that it is a occupation, because that implies subjugation of a population. That is extremely pejorative terminology. Do we (non indigenous Americans) “occupy” the United States? Do the Russians “occupy” the Crimea? Sure, they probably constitute a majority there, but that was mostly due to the Soviet Russification efforts. Populations move, and countries are defeated, taken over by their enemies. This has been the driving force behind our history for four millennia. Nothing unique there to Israel.

For the better than three millennium, the strip along the Mediterranean from Gaza up through Syria has changed hands dozens of times. Sometimes it consisted of independent states, but more often than not, it was a part of larger empires. Earlier, it was on the Fertile Crescent between kingdoms in Egypt and Iraq. Later, it was controlled by bigger, more distant powers like Persia, Rome, Turkey, and for a brief time Great Britain.

Just over a century ago, the area was under Turkish rule for four hundred years, and then for most of the next 30 years, subject effectively to British control. Much of the rest of the century, for much of the country, 70 years, it has been Israeli. Then, in a bit over 20 years, the rest of the country was acquired defensively as a result of wars on them. Almost a half century since then, which means that the entirety of the country has been owned by Israel longer than anyone since the Turks. Indeed, it could be argued that the disputed territories were only controlled by the Palestinians (and not even them - but Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt) for a mere 20 years, with the next half century belonging to Israel. Why then are these parts of Israel considered “occupied”?

For the most part, the former Muslim residents of these parts of Israel left voluntarily, during the civil war that resulted in the formal founding of Israel. They weren’t actually forced out, but vacated the land at the behest of the Arab countries waging war on the newly created Israel. Those who remained were mostly allowed to live in peace, and vote in Israeli elections. They were far better treated than the Jews who lived in the surrounding countries.; 3/10/20, 6:24 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Looking at the coronavirus map at the Johns Hopkins website, there is something strange going on with the reported numbers for Russia. Only 20 reported cases and 0 deaths. Yet there are massive numbers of infections on Russia's eastern and southern borders. Unless Russia has found a magical way to halt the virus at its borders, looks like that are cooking the numbers.; 3/10/20, 6:36 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Bruce Hayden:

I do disagree though that it is a occupation, because that implies subjugation of a population. That is extremely pejorative terminology.

Occupation neither implies nor requires subjugation of a population, and I disagree that the term is "extremely pejorative." Iraq, for example, was occupied following the war, an occupation which ended when sovereignty was restored to Iraq. The fact of the matter is that Israel exercises a high degree of control over a population that have no ability to participate in Israeli government. If Israel really wishes to claim the occupied territories as their own, then its residents would become citizens of Israel. But Israel cannot countenance that, since it would mean the demographic end to Israel as a Jewish state. And so its options are to keep the people in a state of permanent occupation or offer them some form of a fig leaf, rump state.; 3/10/20, 6:41 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Sorry. Meant western border.; 3/10/20, 6:41 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Fun fact:

China has 80,000 confirmed cases of the virus in a population of 1.4 billion.

This equates to an infection rate of 0.01%; 3/10/20, 6:50 AM
Fernandinande said...: "Free markets and free people' is also Reason magazine's motto, and they basically support open borders.

Not all libertarians do. I sure don't.

I know a lot of libertarian types. My question to them, as to you, is how do you get there? You're describing a society that has never really existed.

Sure it existed: the U.S. from it's founding until about 1913, certainly 1920. The general well-being of US residents was far above the rest of the world's population, including Europe.

They got there by violent revolution.; 3/10/20, 7:04 AM
Lincolntf said...: Another fun fact, for those who find pandemics that target the elderly humorous, Italy, as of yesterday, had 9,172 confirmed infections, 463 of them have died. I'm not gonna bust out a calculator, but that's about a 5% mortality rate. What a knee-slapper.; 3/10/20, 7:04 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: “ For the life of me, I cannot understand why people say insane things like there should be "no daylight" between the US and Israel.”

I completely agree there. For the most part our national interests coincide. But not completely. For example, there is strong evidence that Jeffrey Epstein was Massad, or at least Massad linked, running a honey pot intelligence operation here in the US at the behest of the Israelis. Massad is apparently very much a family operation, and the father, Robert Maxwell, of his GF and partner, Ghislaine Maxwell, was very clearly Massad. A friend, a former Israeli intelligence officer, was back in Israel this summer and pretty much confirmed it. Maxwell’s name is apparently listed on a plaque along with other Massad operatives who died in their service.

What guess is that our CIA, and possibly FBI, knew about the operation, but probably for their own reasons provided some protection. At least some people in our government was. And if the CIA knew, likely British intelligence knew - probably more likely than the FBI. But if they did, then why did they let both Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew get caught up in it? Possibly for their own, bureaucratic reasons. My theory is that the ultimate reason that Epstein was finally arrested and charged with multiple serious felonies is first that Trump didn’t like Epstein, from the past, when he threw him out of one of his properties, and second, by that point, knew that the CIA was run by a bunch of self serving traitorous scum, such as former Director Brennan, who was one of the primary architects of the Russian Collusion hoax investigation launched against him. So when they likely asked him to intervene on Epstein’s behalf, for national security reasons, he likely responded “hell no”, and informed the DOJ to redouble their efforts. Protecting Epstein’s routine rape and exploitation of underaged girls was not going to happen on his watch, and esp if the CIA asked him to.

In any case, a honey pot (using underaged girls for extra blackmail potential) run in the US, under our noses, likely by Israeli’s Mossad, was primarily aimed, by its location, at compromising Americans, though an international cast of deviants was obviously dragged in. And that cast of deviants went all the way to the top, given how often Clinton flew with Epstein, and that even his wife, the Crooked One, flew with him at least once. She who is supposedly the one behind Biden’s recent surge, and the subversion of Bernie’s campaign. Latest rumors are that it was Clinton people who were passing out promises of cabinet posts to the other candidates, in order to get them to drop out and back Biden.; 3/10/20, 7:09 AM
Jersey Fled said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/10/20, 7:13 AM
Lincolntf said...: Confirmed cases outside of China tripled last week. The measures being taken in Italy are probably going to become more common than not.; 3/10/20, 7:15 AM
Jersey Fled said...: I get the infection rate of Italy as 9,172÷60,400,000=0.02%; 3/10/20, 7:19 AM
Lincolntf said...: Yes, everybody knows that the infection rate is "low" (though not low compared to the 0.0000% infection rate in all of world history until last December.) The mortality rate and the possibility of victims being reinfected make the coronavirus something very much worth stopping.; 3/10/20, 7:21 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: @Farmer - Muslim Arabs who remained behind, in what is now present day Israel, are citizens, and do get to vote. Indeed, at their rate of population growth, there has been a worry that they may make Israel a Muslim majority country over the next half century, which could be inconvenient for the only Jewish state in the world.

But of the rest, the original 750k Palestinian refugees have grown to roughly 5 million over the last half century. Of that number, it appears that roughly 15% (750k) are registered in the West Bank portion of Israel, and of those, only maybe 200k actually live there. The remaining 85% are registered live elsewhere, mostly in the surrounding countries (Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt (Gaza)). That the 96% (including the 500k registered, but not living in the West Bank) don’t have voting, etc, rights is on those other countries, not Israel.

And, no, the 200k Palestinians refugees actually living in Israel at the present time, would not adversely affect the demographics of Israel. You are talking about the 4.8 million who don’t, and anymore really don’t have any real claim to live there. We are mostly talking the children, grandchildren, and now even great grandchildren of people who mostly voluntarily emigrated from present day Israel.; 3/10/20, 7:36 AM
Ralph L said...: Aren't a lot of Palestinians living in the Persian Gulf as domestic servants and low-skilled workers?; 3/10/20, 7:48 AM
Jersey Fled said...: U.S. numbers are 755 cases divided by 330 million population = .0002%

It's still very early in the process here, but we have a better public health system than China, and have been taking preventive measures since the beginning, so I'm guessing both the infection rate and death rate will be lower than China.

Incidentally, the death rate in China is about 6% of those confirmed infected. So the death rate for the overall Chinese population is .06 times .001 equals .00006%

Another way to look at the death rate for China is that 94% of those confirmed infected have recovered.

The numbers are:

Total cases that have come to resolution equals 3024 deaths plus 47,741 recoveries = 50,765 cases that have come to resolution.

Recovery rate = 47,741÷50,765=94%; 3/10/20, 7:50 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Bruce Hayden:

The population of the occupied territory is about five million. That is more than half the population of Israel. But you are quite correct in identifying a huge problem with the Israel-Palestine conflict. The Israelis will not give in on the right of return, and the Palestinians will not accept an undivided Jerusalem. So the problem is vexed. One of the reasons I think the US should stay out of trying to broker a deal.; 3/10/20, 7:51 AM
Jersey Fled said...: The possibility of reinfection for corona or any individual virus is essentially 0%. You have built an immunity.; 3/10/20, 7:52 AM
I Callahan said...: The fact of the matter is that Israel exercises a high degree of control over a population that have no ability to participate in Israeli government.

This just isn’t true, as was pointed out several comments prior to yours. If apes finish Arabs can vote and work in Israel, and have the same rights as other Israelis.; 3/10/20, 7:56 AM
I Callahan said...: Spell check. “If apes finish” is supposed to be “Palestinians”.; 3/10/20, 8:00 AM
J. Farmer said...: @I Callahan:

This just isn’t true, as was pointed out several comments prior to yours. If apes finish Arabs can vote and work in Israel, and have the same rights as other Israelis.

I am talking about the population of the occupied territories, not the population of Israel.; 3/10/20, 8:02 AM
Ralph L said...: Callahan must be cancelled.; 3/10/20, 8:04 AM
tim maguire said...: BarrySanders20, lucky break for you. As I don't see nay reason why there wouldn't be a full recovery within 6-8 months (probably less), you're in a good position to make a killing.; 3/10/20, 8:11 AM
tim maguire said...: I Callahan said...
Spell check. “If apes finish” is supposed to be “Palestinians”.

You spell checker is racist.; 3/10/20, 8:12 AM
Maillard Reactionary said...: The road to Enlightenment is still between two trees, but it's closed until next winter when the lake freezes again.; 3/10/20, 8:38 AM
Maillard Reactionary said...: Due to a software design error, I Callahan's spell checker substituted "apes finish" for what should have been "Finnish apes". Does that soothe everyone's hurt feelings now?; 3/10/20, 8:39 AM
Birkel said...: Smug,
You go right back to the libertarian description because it's all you have. And you pretend you can understand my position?

Smug^2 or maybe even cubed.; 3/10/20, 8:57 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Inga posts leftwing leaks to TIME. Adam Schitt.

more Schitt-esque-lies.

John Noonan
@noonanjo
·
Mar 9
The Global Health Security Index found in October that the US was the "best prepared" to deal with a pandemic.
https://ghsindex.org; 3/10/20, 9:13 AM
mockturtle said...: Jersey Fled claims: The possibility of reinfection for corona or any individual virus is essentially 0%. You have built an immunity.

Totally false.; 3/10/20, 9:26 AM
Mark said...: Unless Russia has found a magical way to halt the virus at its borders, looks like that are cooking the numbers.

And they say there are no more Soviets.; 3/10/20, 10:21 AM