September 10, 2019

"We asked 2020 candidates how they would wield presidential power. Here is what they said."

A NYT extravaganza.

I tried to read some of that but it's a tough slog through the verbiage. The questions are long and carefully framed, but you're not adequately rewarded for understanding the questions because the answers are not written to make the distinctions clear.

My son John blogged this by choosing just one question and only 2 answers to it.

The one question John chose was:
1. Presidential War Powers

In recent years, the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel has claimed that the Constitution authorizes the president, as commander in chief, to order the military to attack other countries without congressional permission if the president determines that this would be anticipatory self-defense or otherwise serve the interests of the United States — at least where the nature, scope and duration of the anticipated hostilities are “limited,” like airstrikes against Libyan government forces in 2011 and Syrian government forces in 2017 and 2018.

Do you agree with the O.L.C.’s reasoning? Under what circumstances other than a literally imminent threat to the United States, if any, does the Constitution permit a president to order an attack on another country without prior Congressional authorization? What about bombing Iranian or North Korean nuclear facilities?
You have to work just to understand the question, and I admire the NYT for framing the questions with such precision. But the candidates can't give straight answers — especially the ones who are and will probably continue to be members of Congress. The 2 answers John picked out are from Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg — neither of whom is currently a member of Congress. John seems to see a distinct difference between the 2 answers.

I'll edit it down to try to make the difference obvious. Biden says: "Only in the most exigent circumstances would I use force without extensive consultation with Congress." He excludes "[a]ny initiation of the use of force against Iran or North Korea – unless in response to an imminent attack" from the "exigent circumstances" that allow the President to act alone.

Buttigieg — who generates more text — says he "will take swift and decisive action to protect the nation when necessary." He excludes attacking North Korea or Iran unless there's "a threat that is truly imminent." He says he'll respect the limitations imposed by the War Powers Resolution and "explore legislation" that goes even further in limiting the President.

What's the difference? All I see is Buttigieg going out of his way to talk about the War Powers Resolution. He'd "respect" it. I don't even know if that means he thinks Congress has the constitutional power to restrict the President like that or if he's just saying he'd voluntarily follow it to the extent that he sees fit. Remember how Obama respected the War Powers Resolution?

ADDED: In answer to that last question, Meade texts me a link to "Obama 86’d the War Powers Resolution/Eighty-six — that’s how many days have passed without President Barack Obama seeking congressional approval for his actions in Iraq, despite a decades-old law that forbids presidents from waiting so long to get lawmakers’ sign-off on military engagements. Nevertheless, Obama says he doesn’t need Congress’s go-ahead, and that’s just fine with most of Capitol Hill" (Foreign Policy). That's from September 2014.

From 2011, I have a blog post, "Obama's Libya adventure does not fit the War Powers Resolution... and can only be supported by the most extreme view of presidential power."

91 comments:

rehajm said...

They omitted a number of Democratic candidates but added TWO Republicans, and omitted the current President ( I get we get to see him in action but still, no equal time). Do the Republicans have more support than the Democrats that were omitted? What are the rules here? I know one of them is what's best for Democrats and what hurts Trump...

chuck said...

like airstrikes against Libyan government forces in 2011 and Syrian government forces in 2017 and 2018.

Whoa, yellow card. The two events were vastly different in scope and intent. I smell political BS.

Nonapod said...

This is all interesting in theory. But in practice I imagine that a President Biden or Buttigieg would do more or less whatever they wanted to with regards to military action and the media would praise them either way. As we've seen, it doesn't really matter too much what a Dem candidate says during a campaign with regards to such things. It's not like they'd ever really be held to task for a broken campaign promise by the media it if they become president. But maybe I'm being far too cynical.

Seeing Red said...

Phone and pen.

John Althouse Cohen said...

Buttigieg says: "I am concerned that the Executive Branch has stretched the President’s unilateral war-making authority too far." He says OLC's reasoning "strays from our Constitution’s design," and "lacks criteria for determining which 'national interests' qualify, as well as any identifiable limiting principles on what constitutes 'war.'”

Biden expresses nothing but support for OLC's reasoning.

That's a big difference.

Ironclad said...

Oh Lord - I read this blog every day but we seem to have one contributor trying to take it down. Sad.

Bay Area Guy said...

"We asked 2020 candidates how they would wield presidential power. Here is what they said."

1. More free stuff!
2. Socialism for all
3. Ban cars
4. Ban cheeseburgers
5. Green New Deal
6. High Taxes
7. OrangeMan Bad
8. White people bad

Ken B said...

FFS Fen, you are making it tough for those of us who think your shit canning was capricious and mistaken to continue to think that.
Calm down.
*Listen to what even your defenders are telling you.*
Don’t post for a day or three.
Come back, maybe under a new name.

rehajm said...

We asked 2020 candidates how they would wield presidential power.

I'm ready for a Republican who will answer Against Democrats, like a broadsword.

Michael K said...

All this seems to be directed at a president who wants to get out of Afghanistan (and leave the wimmen and chillun) and who has not attacked anybody but a few terrorists in Syria.

mockturtle said...

This is OT but has everyone else seen this? Mueller helped cover up Saudi involvement in 9/11

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Oh boy- More NY opinion.

NY and CA rule our deplorable lives.

susan.h said...

Talking about sock puppets, is Fen trying to pass as a cool looking black guy. I know he's not Denzel Washington in "The Equilizer" but who is he? I picture a chubby white guy who looks more like the late and sorely missed Chris Farley.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

LOL - left-wingers who hate The US Constitution, know it stands in the way of their authoritarian power over us, and want to shred it, sure do like to use it for their BS.

CWJ said...

2020. That's a lot of candidates!

Ken B said...

Mock
I saw it. Interesting, not implausible but short on proof.

Anonymous said...

Fen: I agree, I am. But I'm tired of giving in to Althouse when SHE is out of line, and she has been out of line with me many many times over the last 14 years. It's her turn to compromise, all she has to do is apologize and stop deleting.

I think you're a bit confused about whose blog this is.

MikeR said...

I wonder what relevance the candidates' answers have to what they will be faced with if they ever become President. I wonder if anyone can imagine how impossible it is to get anything done at all, and how that pushes a person in the direction of just doing stuff anyhow.

FrankiM said...

Bolton has been fired, why did Trump choose him in the first place? What a mess this Administration is, thanks Trump voters and supporters.

Ken B said...

Buzzard
You are confusing “ownership” — the actual owner of this service is Google — with power. And power with integrity and credibility. Althouse has spent a lot of time and effort establishing a certain level of those last two. Crucial to maintaining those are moderation decisions that are seen to be consistent with her frequently announced policies and free from personal resentment. That is how good blogs die.

henry said...

Pardon Power is the big one... If you pardon everyone on your last day you can get away with whatever Obama got away with.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

I'm just glad I didn't get deplatformed, or Fenestrated.

doctrev said...

DorAnnu! I've come to bargain!

I'm sorry, I definitely shouldn't encourage large scale blog spamming, but the visual is too funny not to meme about.

At any rate, as I told John Althouse Cohen, the only candidate to come close to delivering what he ran on, without excessive surprises, is... Donald Trump. If you want to seriously analyze the candidates, compare what they say to what they have done. Given the fact Bernie is the only one who brings up Libya, forcing the Democrats to confront their staggering hypocrisy, I'd say Bernie clearly has the best answer- which was obviously written for him.

Francisco D said...

Fen,

Your tantrum is obviously not hitting its intended target.

Chill.

Dave Begley said...

"Buttigieg — who generates more text — says he "will take swift and decisive action to protect the nation when necessary." "

You mean the failed Mayor of South Bend who can't even control crime and run the police force in his small town is going to be swift and decisive and protect the nation?

What a joke.

narciso said...

our host is not the villainous dormammu, Fen, but this is a comedy of errors, I thought the 2008 line up was bad,

narciso said...

yes the first was to empower the largely Qatari controlled rebel factions, like that of bel hadj, the second was a warning against escalating by assad,

The Neon Madman said...

Fen:

You have been politely asked to clean up your behavior or otherwise leave the party.

Next step, obviously, is to throw you out. I would have done it long ago, but our host has more tolerance for bad behavior than I do.

You seem to forget whose blog this is in the first place.

doctrev said...

Yes, Donald Trump does have superlative bargaining powers, but I doubt he has the Time Stone needed to cut a deal with the Taliban on 9/11. You gibbering ten cent per comment troll doll.

Yancey Ward said...

Yes, chuck sees the exact same thing I did- the equating of two vastly different actions of Obama and Trump. I mean, seriously, this is just flat out intellectual dishonesty.

narciso said...

this was the piece that covered some of the overlap with Solomon,


http://narcisoscorner.blogspot.com/2009/06/tangled-web-of-myers.html?view=timeslide

Drago said...

Inga: "Just like Trump bargaining with the Taliban on 9/11."

LOL

Fangirl of the Iran giveaway and Libya debacle and red line collossal screwup disgrees with Trump's foreign policy!

Too funny.

Now Inga has a problem. She believes Bolton to be a war-mongering lunatic (she has said so many times) and now that Trump has fired him its going to be very difficult for the lefties and LLR-lefties to generate a "strange new respect" campaign to rehabilitate Bolton to attack Trump.

The lefties/LLR-lefties are already reeling from the Mattis book which they assumed would attack Trump left and right but instead properly pointed out the mendacity and fecklessness of the obama/biden/Hillary/Kerry regime.

Trump does not want endless wars with no clear goals established and pathways to achieve them. Bolton could have modified his previous endless wars positions to maintain influence in the administration. He did not and thus, he's gone. Time to make way for an advisor who is not for endless foreign wars.

Nothing complicated or surprising about any of this.

Drago said...

Who doesn't forget the obama "bargaining" results with the iranians.

Ok, you can have your no inspection scenario (we have to let you know which facilities the Iranians have identified (LOL-seriously) weeks ahead of time), only go where you want us to go, you get to certify your own compliance, you can still develop your nukes (just pretend to go a little slower) and we will give you $150 Billion to help advance your terrorist causes.

Oh, right. I almost forgot: we will also make a worldwide apology tour to beg forgiveness for being horrible Americans.

And go ahead and kill as many Americans and Israeli's as you'd like. We dems don't care for those folks either....

The "Lightbringer"

Drago said...

Neon Madman: "Next step, obviously, is to throw you out. I would have done it long ago, but our host has more tolerance for bad behavior than I do.

You seem to forget whose blog this is in the first place."

I believe the LLR (He who shall not be named) and Inga precedents speak against that course of action.

Drago said...

Earlier in the Trump Admin--> lefties/LLR-lefties: OMG Trump has hired that madman Bolton!!

Later in the Trump Admin--> lefties/LLR-lefties: OMG Trump has fired the Voice of Reason Who Must Now Be Listened To, Bolton!

rehajm said...

Fen's spamming is going to bump up against an exponential growth problem..

Drago said...

What's the body count now for North African refugees fleeing the "paradise" obama and Hillary created in Libya?

Don't ask Inga. I'll bet she, like Biden, can't even remember who the "last President" was.

Just asking said...

This is OT but has everyone else seen this? Mueller helped cover up Saudi involvement in 9/11

I tend to believe it's possible, but from what I read last night, this was just the accusation made in a court case. Have we seen proof?

Just asking said...

Fen, stop being tiresome. Someone can be familiar with a meme and still not notice the reference immediately when it's out of context. Don't obsess over trivialities.

mockturtle said...

I tend to believe it's possible, but from what I read last night, this was just the accusation made in a court case. Have we seen proof?

We are aware of proof of Saudi involvement, of course. The coverup has yet to be disclosed but I fear it might involve GWB, as well, whose close ties to the Saudis are well recognized.

gilbar said...

how would democrats wield Presidential Power, probably about like they wield Congressional power.
That is, in such a way as to Lose Friends and Influence people
Most Americans Now Have an Unfavorable View of the Democratic Party, A Flip From 2018

ALL THE DEMOCRATS HAVE TO DO IS NOT BE CRAZY — AND THEY CAN'T EVEN DO THAT

Ralph L said...

Mueller strikes me as the type who would dare nothing big without higher authority.

Rob said...

Note that Biden says that except in the most exigent circumstances he wouldn't use force "without extensive consultation with Congress." Extensive consultation means discussing it with Congressional leaders, a far cry from the "prior Congressional authorization" that the NYT says in its question.

Balfegor said...

I don't know whether any of the candidates have taken this position, but I think we habitually seriously underestimate the potential costs of military action in foreign countries. I'm not talking penny-ante stuff like "Iraq cost a trillion dollars (over ten years)" or whatever. I mean that the decision to undertake military action in any foreign country means we're at war, whether Congress declared it or not.

When we sent troops into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden, we violated Pakistan's sovereignty, and it's our good fortune that Pakistan was sufficiently cowed by our awesome military might that they didn't retaliate. When we sent cruise missiles to bomb the Soudan, it's our good fortune that the Soudan had no means of striking back. When Japan deployed troops to "punish" China because some Chinese troops massacred a bunch of Japanese subjects, they probably didn't anticipate that it was going to end with their cities being obliterated in nuclear fire. The "China Incident" (志那事変, now called the Second Sino-Japanese War) was also quite similar to our modern military actions, in that there was never an actual declaration of war, they got bogged down in a nation building exercise to set up a friendly local government staffed by former senior officials of the hostile regime, and victory conditions were never entirely clear. Mattis's resignation -- though carried out quite properly and for entirely appropriate reasons -- reminded me somewhat of the resignation of Hata as Army Minister (bringing down the Yonai cabinet in 1940). Similarly, the efforts to pressure people not to join Trump's administration remind me of Ugaki's failure to form a cabinet in 1937, all reflective of the increasing militarisation of the Japanese government.

Anyhow, that's a digression. My point is just that Congress ought to be voting on the decision to employ force in any circumstances, whether it's firing cruise missiles at the Soudan or launching bombing raids over Libya or giving air support and guns to rebels in Syria. Not saying we shouldn't have done any of those things, just that President shouldn't be making decisions that potentially put the continued existence of the United States at risk all by himself.

narciso said...

well we have the 28 pages, that showed the skeleton of the network, which mueller studiously avoided investigating in tampa in san diego in new jersey, they made such a big fuss about it then crickets,

Balfegor said...

Ah, link above the "nation building exercise" was supposed to link to the wikipedia article for the Reorganized National Government of the Republic of China, which the Japanese set up to govern northern and central China while they fought with Chiang Kai-shek's forces down in the south. Wang Jingwei had previously been Premier of the Republic of China and a rival of Chiang Kai-shek. He agreed to become the president of the Reorganized government. Unfortunately for him, Japanese army commanders were not accustomed to obeying their own civilian government, so they certainly weren't going to pay any heed to a Chinese government.

J2 said...

I'm surprised that for "Use of Military Force Against Americans" no candidate took the opportunity to flesh out the information omitted by the Times. In Oct 2011 Abdulrahman al-Awlak, a 16 year old US citizen was killed in Yemen by drone. There were 8 collateral fatalities.

His father Alman al-Awlaki also a US citizen had been who had not been charged or convicted in a trial, but had been placed on the CIA Kill List had been killed by drone strike in Yemen in Sept 2011.

Ralph L said...

President shouldn't be making decisions that potentially put the continued existence of the United States at risk all by himself.

That's the way it was for decades of Cold War, and Washington can't shake it. Congress sure doesn't want to take any responsibility, yet Senators keep running for President. McCain's ego at least made him take some public stands.

narciso said...

well it's not like you were going to arrest him in the empty quarter, morten storm, the Danish asset, had helped pinpoint the target, we didn't serve a warrant on yamamoto either, we just shot him down over new guinea, when one party as much as declares war, the initiative is to the other party,

bagoh20 said...

Seriously, of what possible value is what any of these people say during a campaign? They will say anything, mostly in an attempt to say nothing.

I won't be surprised if the Democrat nominee denounces socialism, illegal immigration, and the green deal during the general election.

Mark said...

I admire the NYT for framing the questions with such precision

Precision isn't the word I would use. Distorted, slanted - those are better words to use.

Mark said...

Besides, that not a question. It is an assertion, followed by some questions.

If the NYT wanted precision, they could have asked a question without the editorial comment.

Mark said...

In Syria, there was (is) at least an arguable existing threat to U.S. forces in the region.

That was not the case with Libya, which instead was a lesson to terrorists and thugs that if you repudiate terror and play nice, we will still bomb you. It was the equivalent of shooting the enemy after he has surrendered. Thanks Hillary and Obama for destroying any incentive for our enemies to give up.

The bigger example was Bill's adventure in Serbia. Which had absolutely nothing to do with U.S. national security.

Mark said...

The thing about the war power of Congress is that it only takes one side for war to exist. And unless Congress is about to start an illegal offensive war contrary to international law, all a "declaration of war" does is to recognize that a pre-existing state of war exists.

mockturtle said...

Per Balfegor: When Japan deployed troops to "punish" China because some Chinese troops massacred a bunch of Japanese subjects, they probably didn't anticipate that it was going to end with their cities being obliterated in nuclear fire.

I thought the whole 'massacre' was a false flag used to justify Japan's invasion.

Ralph L said...

Thanks Hillary and Obama for destroying any incentive for our enemies to give up.

IIRC, the French & Brits got involved first and failed. BO should have left it at that, but NATO. I wonder if he knew anything about the Suez Crisis.

ga6 said...

What is that saying again?

Oh yes, "Baffle 'em with bullshit".

Sebastian said...

"Do you agree with the O.L.C.’s reasoning?"

Prior question: Do you think OLC reasoning matters?

Answer: of course not. If the president gives an order, the military obeys. If the president makes a decision, Congress can impeach him, but is otherwise powerless. Etc. etc. And Congress is feckless in any case, happy to pass the buck.

What would matter is to have Congress stay in session much longer, and address all crises immediately as they happen, thus pre-empting most presidential military actions.

rehajm said...

We asked 2020 candidates how they would wield presidential power.

Makes it sound like there are 2,020 candidates. I predicted as much, figuring all those wacko leftie celebrities would throw their hat in, figuring if Trump could do it. Somebody must have tackled Barbara Streisand on her way to register...

We will probably have 2,024 next time.

Robert Cook said...

"Note that Biden says that except in the most exigent circumstances he wouldn't use force 'without extensive consultation with Congress.' Extensive consultation means discussing it with Congressional leaders, a far cry from the 'prior Congressional authorization' that the NYT says in its question."

And which is required by the Constitution.

Michael K said...

Extensive consultation means discussing it with Congressional leaders, a far cry from the 'prior Congressional authorization' that the NYT says in its question."

And which is required by the Constitution.


Ask Gaddafi about that Cook. Oh wait....

Robert Cook said...

"Ask Gaddafi about that Cook. Oh wait...."

What's your point?

Michael K said...

What's your point?

You mean you don't get the point that Obama and Hillary attacked a country that had voluntarily given up a nuclear program, with no Congressional authority ? Now the left, which includes you, is bitching about Congressional authority.

The Libya thing, aside from killing some US service members and the ambassador, has poisoned diplomacy for the next 50 years in any attempt to convince a dictator that we will keep our word.

Michael K said...

I see moderation has appeared.

Bilwick said...

"We'll wield power to rob Peter so we shower all the Pauls with free stuff and buy more votes at the next election."--if the Democratic clown car gave an honest answer.

gilbar said...

igna, i know that you're an ignorant slut, and stupid to boot; But news for you
Trump is NOT a democrat. Please TRY to pay attention

Leland said...

Interesting take on Congress limiting the President on the ability to make war. I might have phrased it limiting the Commander and Chief; as it seems clear the War Powers Act was meant to cover the grey Constitutional area of Congress declaring War and the President performing Commander and Chief duties.

What I noticed is that Congress, and the federal judiciary, had no problem the President have extraordinary power under Obama. Yet under Trump, normal duties like enforcement of immigration laws (which is protecting US borders) seems to too much power for a President to wield.

I don't expect any Presidential candidate to be candid. Then again, that's why I no longer listen (or read) them, as much as judge their action.

BTW, love the comments section in the post. Much cleaner and easier to read the responses to the original topic.

gilbar said...

Beta O'Rouke just came out with this:
“Living close to work shouldn't be a luxury for the rich,” the former Texas congressman tweeted Monday. “It's a right for everyone.”

Which, Again shows: ALL THE DEMOCRATS HAVE TO DO IS NOT BE CRAZY — AND THEY CAN'T EVEN DO THAT

Balfegor said...

Re: mockturtle:

I thought the whole 'massacre' was a false flag used to justify Japan's invasion.

No, the Tungchow/Tongzhou massacre really did happen as far as I am aware -- I've never heard that it was a false flag. Even the earlier Marco Polo Bridge incident that precipitated the broader war is not, as far as I am aware, generally believed to have been a false flag incident. But in neither case were the acts directed by Chiang or his government.

You're probably thinking about the 1928 Zhang Zuolin assassination attempt (false flag bombing by Japanese Kwantung Army/Kantou-gun) or the 1931 Liutiaogou Incident (false flag bombing, again, by the Japanese Kwantung Army). The Kwangtung Army officers were right up there with the Nazis and the Soviets as far as fabricating false flag incidents to provide a casus belli.

You might also be thinking about the 1931 Wanpaoshan Incident in Manchuria where a mob of Chinese farmers attacked a bunch of Korean colonists and were then repulsed by Japanese troops, Koreans at that time being subjects of the Emperor of Japan. Koreans back in Korea were so enraged by the actions of the Chinese (at least as reported by the sensationalist press) that they massacred a bunch of Chinese in Korea. Not exactly a false flag operation, but certainly another incident where the Japanese military actively contributed to escalating tensions with China.

All that said, I am sure the Chinese at some point accused the Japanese of having fabricated the Tungchow massacre, given that every time a bunch of civilians was killed, the Chinese accused the Japanese of having been the guilty party, even when the Nationalists were the perpetrators (e.g. the 1938 Yellow River Flood, which killed a million people, or the burning of Changsha, which killed about 30,000 people). That's part of the dynamic when Japanese nationalists deny the Rape of Nanking -- they got accused of 10 atrocities they didn't commit, so therefore they reason that the 1 other atrocity must also be a fabrication (no matter how much contemporary evidence exists that it was perpetrated by Japanese troops, and that the senior leadership of the Imperial Army back on the home islands were aware that there had been a breakdown of discipline during the fall of Nanking, resulting in widespread raping and pillaging).

Anyhow, long way of saying, I'm sure the Chinese at some point accused the Japanese of fabricating the Tungchow massacre, but I don't think the accusation is credible.

Balfegor said...

Re: mockturtle:

I thought the whole 'massacre' was a false flag used to justify Japan's invasion.

No, the Tungchow/Tongzhou massacre really did happen as far as I am aware -- I've never heard that it was a false flag. Even the earlier Marco Polo Bridge incident that precipitated the broader war is not, as far as I am aware, generally believed to have been a false flag incident. But in neither case were the acts directed by Chiang or his government.

You're probably thinking about the 1928 Zhang Zuolin assassination attempt (false flag bombing by Japanese Kwantung Army/Kantou-gun) or the 1931 Liutiaogou Incident (false flag bombing, again, by the Japanese Kwantung Army). The Kwangtung Army officers were right up there with the Nazis and the Soviets as far as fabricating false flag incidents to provide a casus belli.

You might also be thinking about the 1931 Wanpaoshan Incident in Manchuria where a mob of Chinese farmers attacked a bunch of Korean colonists and were then repulsed by Japanese troops, Koreans at that time being subjects of the Emperor of Japan. Koreans back in Korea were so enraged by the actions of the Chinese (at least as reported by the sensationalist press) that they massacred a bunch of Chinese in Korea. Not exactly a false flag operation, but certainly another incident where the Japanese military actively contributed to escalating tensions with China, and there's a massacre involved too.

All that said, I am sure the Chinese at some point accused the Japanese of having fabricated the Tungchow massacre, given that every time a bunch of civilians was killed, the Chinese accused the Japanese of having been the guilty party, even when the Nationalists were the perpetrators (e.g. the 1938 Yellow River Flood, which killed a million people, or the burning of Changsha, which killed about 30,000 people). That's part of the dynamic when Japanese nationalists deny the Rape of Nanking -- they got accused of 10 atrocities they didn't commit, so therefore they reason that the 1 other atrocity must also be a fabrication (no matter how much contemporary evidence exists that it was perpetrated by Japanese troops, and that the senior leadership of the Imperial Army back on the home islands were aware that there had been a breakdown of discipline during the fall of Nanking, resulting in widespread raping and pillaging).

Anyhow, long way of saying, I'm sure the Chinese at some point accused the Japanese of fabricating the Tungchow massacre, but I don't think the accusation is credible.

h said...

Not interested in the Fen stuff; trust Althouse to run her own blog. But perhaps comments on the substance of this are irrelevant at this point. Nevertheless, here's what I wanted to say:

I did object when Obama (and Bush II and Clinton to somewhat lesser extents) replaced legislation with executive/regulatory actions and legislative actions disguised as "prosecutorial discretion". (Remember "I have a phone and a pen"?) And going back as far as I can remember, it appears to me that immigration policy has been nearly completely decoupled from legislative acts. I came to the reluctant conclusion that this trend would continue until a conservative Republican president used the same rationales to ignore or reverse legislative decisions made by a more liberal Democratic congress. (In a similar way I believed, and continue to believe that election fraud will never be addressed unless and until Republicans use electoral fraud to win a number of important elections. Perhaps we are headed in that direction.) On executive power, we are at a point where Democrats could win my vote by standing up, not just against Trump's executive power grabs, but also the principle of executive power grabs, blaming (at least) Obama for similar power grabs. I don't have an NYT subscription but from the quoted parts, it sounds like the Democratic candidates are unwilling to take a principled stand for the supremacy of the legislative branch.

Rabel said...

"...the supremacy of the legislative branch."

Oh, my.

narciso said...

but we know from past practice, they will not abide by said rules,


fascinating precis, about Japanese adventures in china, I thought they only went back to 1931,
Robert elegant's dynasty covered some of that period, yang kuang, the poppy wars treats in the gritty realm of sci fi and fantasy, more like horror,

JackWayne said...

“The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;”

“To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;”

That’s all it says. To the Originalists, tell me how this either limits the President or gives Congress the power to assume war-making powers. To the Living Documentists tell me how the War Powers Act means jack. A lousy process produces lousy results. Finally, in the Federalist Papers, Publius admitted that EVEN AT THAT TIME the declaration of war was a rare event. And Publius is OK with that. And so should YOU be content. Because your Betters know better.

h said...

Replying to Rabel at 5:17 who (if I understand correctly) objects to my use of the phrase "supremacy of the legislative branch".

The constitution clearly regards the legislative branch as the first among equals of the three branches. I'm not sure how to "prove" this. But here's a start: "Congress is not coequal. It is superior. The notion of coequality of the branches is a myth that has been popularized over the past half century, during the rise of the imperial presidency, as a way to boost the executive’s standing in the eyes of the public." https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/congress-supreme-branch-of-government-not-coequal/

Or this: https://www.coursehero.com/file/p664i6p/In-the-republican-form-of-government-the-legislative-branch-tends-to-be-the/

jimbino said...

"...despite a decades-old law that forbids presidents from waiting so long..." in Real English would read "...despite a decades-old law that forbids presidents to wait so long...."

Rabel said...

You are absolutely right, h. I do object and for the reason you stated.

Michael K said...

The constitution clearly regards the legislative branch as the first among equals of the three branches.

It's Article I, although Slow Joe did not know it.

The problem is that Congress has abandoned all of its functions. I blame McCain-Finegold which converted them to 24/7 fundraisers. They have the staffs write all legislation, after which the staffs then move to administration and write the regs or to lobby firms where they write the bills. McCain-Finegold, passed because McCain was humiliated by Keating, has wrecked Congress and mad it a laughing stock.

Sebastian said...

"we are at a point where Democrats could win my vote by standing up, not just against Trump's executive power grabs, but also the principle of executive power grab"

I guess, then, we are at a point where seemingly reasonable people would give their vote to Democrats when they "stand up" for something they will jettison as soon as they gain power.

Not sure why anyone still believes that Democrats have any principles when it comes to the getting and using of power, but that is just data point #4398 illustrating that we are effed as a people--which, I suspect, will come to a head in 2020, when a number of such reasonable people will rationalize a vote for the Dems as standing up against something or other Trump did wrong, only to be umm, disappointed after the fact.

Robert Cook said...

"You mean you don't get the point that Obama and Hillary attacked a country that had voluntarily given up a nuclear program, with no Congressional authority?"

Do you think I supported Obama or Hillary in general, or their actions in Libya, in particular? You obviously have not paid the slightest attention to anything I've ever said. Obama and Hillary are war criminals and murderers, and Hillary's cackling on tv about Qaddafi's bayonet rape/murder was ghastly.

Ralph L said...

wrecked Congress and made it a laughing stock.

It was well on its way years before. Maybe the House banking scandal was the first symptom we saw. When I was working for an Air Staff contractor in the 80's, the single energetic congressman we had to deal with was in the minority--Dick Cheney.

FullMoon said...
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mockturtle said...

Cookie can rightfully be accused of being an idealist and perhaps a socialist but calling him a Democrat is unfounded and downright cruel.

mockturtle said...

Balfegor: Thank you for taking time to answer [in duplicate, yet!] my question regarding this alleged massacre. No, I do not confuse it with other incidents and I'm well aware of the atrocities of the Kuomintang but I have read accounts contrary to yours. It cannot be denied that the Japanese were looking for some reason to invade and perhaps this event was exaggerated.

Gk1 said...

Someone had already pegged this already. None of this blather means anything during campaign season where candidates will say anything just to get elected. I can still remember GW saying we should stay out of foreign wars and do less "nation building" in 2000 and look how that all turned out.

Michael K said...

You obviously have not paid the slightest attention to anything I've ever said.

I have certainly tried to avoid it. You are a lefty and they are lefties.

QED

n.n said...

Democrats riding the double-edged scalpel.

Robert Cook said...

"I have certainly tried to avoid it."

Then you make yourself look foolish by ascribing ideas and attitudes to me I have specifically condemned many times. I thought doctors were supposed to be attentive to detail. You reveal that doctors can be uninformed blowhards as much as anyone else can.

"You are a lefty and they are lefties."

Not by a long shot. They are both loyal servants of the U.S. ruling elites and the military/corporate/finance complex...the same people the Republicans serve.

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Kirk Parker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kirk Parker said...

Dave Begley @ 11:21am,

"... swift and decisive... ""



Balfegor,

I certainly am sympathetic with your desires for Congressional approval, with two major caveats:

1. We must not somehow imbue the constitutional requirement that Congress has the sole power to declare war, with somehow specifying any particular wording of such a declaration. Any AUMF passed in recent decades certainly fulfills the constitutional requirement, even if the phrase "declare war" doesn't appear in them.

2. The declaration has to be high-level enough that we aren't requiring Congress to ratify any operational details... secrecy and surprise still sometimes matter. Note that the War Powers Act, that rare instance of Congress asserting its power as against the executive, explicitly recognizes the occasional need for the executive to act in the moment.