The NYT reports:
"We are not satisfied with the conclusions of the medical examiner,” said [Epstein's] lawyers, who had hired a private pathologist to observe the autopsy, in a statement. “We will have a more complete response in the coming days.”....
His suicide followed an apparent attempt to kill himself in late July, and came 12 days after prison staff had recommended he be removed from suicide watch and returned to the wing in which he had been housed before.
I wonder what Epstein said to his lawyers about the July incident. It was either, yes, I tried to kill myself or somebody — who? — attacked me.
The conspiracy theories surrounding Mr. Epstein’s death were fueled in part by a paucity of information from Bureau of Prison officials since his body was discovered....
On Monday, the federal judge in Mr. Epstein’s case, Richard M. Berman, noted the unanswered questions about the July incident. “It has never been definitively explained what the B.O.P. concluded,” Judge Berman wrote in a letter to the warden of the Metropolitan Correctional Center on Monday.
Given the lack of explanation, the high-profile nature of Mr. Epstein’s crimes and the disgraced financier’s ties to a number of prominent people, wild theories about his death spread across social media from people of disparate ideologies....
Dr. Sampson, the medical examiner, said on Sunday night that her office had conducted an autopsy of Mr. Epstein but declined to release a determination about the cause of death. A city official said at the time that she wanted more information from law enforcement before releasing her determination....
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64 comments:
Incompetence that allows a conspiracy to work, in a compromise.
in the olden days, when an officer had screwed up; when he got back to his office after being informed of the Authorities displeasure, He'd find that Someone had conveniently left his service revolver on his desk. I'd say that IF Jeff committed suicide, it was That sort of suicide
Epstein's dead. His lawyers can claim he said anything and how likely would it be to dispute it. With that in mind, they could suggest a murder by Trump aligned individuals. If they aren't agreeing with the ME report; I doubt these still living lawyers will want to start blaming people that could really get to Epstein in prison.
we're 'supposed to' think that; SINCE it was a suicide, everything's hunky dory.
There was No Conspiracy, just a guy that decided to end his life in a maximum security jail
What's that? He wasn't IN a maximum security jail?
What's that? NO ONE was watching him?
What's that? They gave him the wrong sheets?
What's that? They removed his roommate, and left him alone for THREE HOURS?
What's that? People were concerned about what he'd testify? NO NEED TO WORRY, NOW!
You can stand on my shoulders and whiz on my head but don’t try to tell me it’s raining.
12% of the people chose "I don't know and I don't care". That's funny to me
I think at the very least the guards may have been paid off so he could commit suicide.
After his last easy stint in jail, I'm not sure I believe he would give up hope so easily.
Late-term abortion through neglect. Perhaps a self-abortion. He was certainly no longer viable in his appointed role, social progress too far.
could suggest a murder by Trump aligned individuals
Epstein expected to be released under prosecutorial discretion and State-established ethics. He must have been surprised when the Trump administration decided to investigate allegations of pedophilia and human trafficking. He was no longer viable and a liability to his wealthy, elite, foreign and domestic patrons, and they would have been well-advised to have planned to relieve him of his burden. He either self-aborted for peace-of-mind or was Gaddafied for the sake of social progress.
I voted for it's a mystery. It probably always will be.
Whatever the official story is, that is probably not what happened. Or, to put it another way, why would anyone believe the official story?
He probably killed himself, but if Russiagate has shown one thing, it's that the deep state is willing and able to carry out long term conspiracies. Put me in the don't know column.
I started at something like 99-1 in favor of government incompetence. But... as the sheer AMOUNT of incompetence started to add up, that has been eroding. It's like when someone in a one hour police procedural says "yes, all the evidence points in one direction. ALL the evidence should NEVER point in one direction," or when Poirot said "there are too many clues in this room."
I'm now closer to 70-30 in favor of government incompetence.
Derbyshire says incompetence owing to the affirmative action Peter principle - you get hired at your level of incompetence if you're black, which apparently management was.
No management skills needed.
I wonder what Epstein said to his lawyers about the July incident. It was either, yes, I tried to kill myself or somebody — who? — attacked me.
I've wondered about that as well. If the first "suicide" attempt was a botched murder you think Epstein and his lawyers would make a huge deal about it. It looks like they didn't, which makes me think it was either a real suicide attempt or a fake one on Epstein's part to get transferred to a better facility.
His death is still a mystery to me, but I'm now leaning towards the theory that it was a suicide and he was allowed to do in it part because the federal prison system is such a mess and in part because there wasn't a strong enough motivation to keep him alive.
If they do come up with murder and an ironclad explanation of who, what, when, why, and how, I will believe that; otherwise it will remain a mystery!
I'm sure it was suicide. It will be interesting to see how Comey will commit suicide.
"We are not satisfied with the conclusions of the medical examiner"
And why not?
If you believe the guards were "asleep" and the video monitors turned off, why would you trust the medical examiner?
Bad poll. You've broken out "conspiracy" into two categories, splitting 49%.
Where were you the night Epstein was killed? :)
..either a real suicide attempt or a fake one on Epstein's part to get transferred to a better facility..
""Incompetence"" results in second attempt ""success""
Sure. I always believe the guy who got his job by knowing someone with connections.
It looks like a case of Assisted Suicide. So that would be okay.
Hope his lawyers got paid upfront.
An option is missing.
- i believe he killed himself AND that there is some kind of conspiracy
I mentioned in a previous post, you can motivate yourself to take certain information with you to the grave. This can be arranged by others making it easier to accomplish...like putting a loaded pistol with one round in front of someone saying you'll save us a lot of paperwork...
He knew what he had to do. He may have even trained for it. Spooks and assets do.
Repeating my comments last night:
“Well, that’s settled. The coroner has officially ruled that Epstein committed suicide. And NO ONE could possibly doubt the official ruling. Of course not.”
I think that the verdict there was preordained. There are essentially two alternative explanations here, either bureaucratic incompetence or a criminal conspiracy. A bureaucracy will pick the bureaucratic incompetence alternative every day, if given half a choice. The possibility of a criminal conspiracy will have the FBI (ha) nosing around everyone’s financials, interrogating everyone, checking phone calls, etc. No one on the inside wants that. With bureaucratic incompetence, they can put a lot of the blame on insufficient funding. If Congress had sufficiently funded the agency, then everyone wouldn’t be working double shifts, while others just don’t show up. And more money is supposed to solve any bureaucratic problem. Never let a good crisis go to waste, and that means that we can pretty well guarantee that the BoP’s incompetence (or criminality) will be leveraged into a request for more money. A lot more money.
And with 35k employees, and well over a century of existence, the BoP is a big, old, bureaucracy.
Conspiracy theories?i have not heard any, only quesadillas doubts. Not the same at all.
Google exercise: Abe Reles.
I wondered about that, how come there were no other suicide attempts on that block or even that whole prison?
I am not stuck on murder, instead of suicide. But I want some experts to have looked at the coroner‘s report. Hyoid bone was broken, and in CSI, etc, that means murder, by strangulation, not suicide. Dr K, I think, pointed out that the incidence of broken hyoid bones with suicides starts rising in your sixties, when you are Epstein’s age. Which is why I think we need a lot more detail.
Adding to the conspiracy theory doubts about Epstein’s death, his body was quickly released to an associate as soon as the autopsy was complete. Any bets on whether it was cremated that day?
Bruce Hayden said, "Adding to the conspiracy theory doubts about Epstein’s death, his body was quickly released to an associate as soon as the autopsy was complete."
No family? Parents, spouse, children, sisters and brothers?
He has a brother, but he was a coconspirator with epstein, reminds of how they handled the burial of juan gabriel, the mexican crooner, they had him cremated.
The people who coordinated the CIA, FBI, State Dept, MSM, IRS, and more!! could never manage to kill a single guy in a federally controlled jail cell.
We all know that.
/sarc
If I'm not mistaken, the DOJ inspector General is separately investigating. I think that's aimed at how the institutional procedures failed, rather than the cause of death, but it may still be enlightening.
"We are not satisfied with the conclusions of the medical examiner,” said [Epstein's] lawyers, who had hired a private pathologist to observe the autopsy, in a statement.
Nor should any honest person be satisfied. Everyone associated with this travesty, from the guards for Epstein’s cell all the way up the chain of command to Acting Director Hugh Hurwitz need to have their finances investigated in great detail, and all —ALL! — should be required to submit to polygraph investigations.
I believe in trust, but verify. Let that other examiner do their thing.
It's of some interest that the FBI turned up to examine the island property weeks after Epstein was arrested and attempted "suicide." It reminds me of the FBI behavior in Benghazi.
Asked why it took three weeks for the military to help the FBI get into Benghazi, Little said the Pentagon was willing to consider requests for support, but directed questions of timing to the State Department and FBI. He said not to “read too much” into time delays
No, don't read "too much" Just enough time to be sure any evidence was gone.
It looks like a case of Assisted Suicide.
Thw correct term is "Insisted Suicide."
Whose body did they examine? Was it Epstein's?
Whatever they think happened, people will continue to follow the conspiracy theories - just for the macabre amusement value.
The government has done a lot to erode confidence in their motivations. Previously they had eroded confidence in their competence. This is a difficult dilemma. I think the DOJ and the NY officials owe us a huge amount of transparency to earn back our confidence.
Right now there is an avalanche of coincidental events that were necessary for Epstein to commit suicide (See Gibbs rule 39, there are no coincidences) , and there is a very strong argument against him having the motive to do it BEFORE trial. Too many questions.
The only thing that will satisfy me are transcripts of statements from every person involved in the MCC, from Warden, to supervisors to guards as well as any individuals who witnessed or communicated with Epstein. (Gibbs rule 35, always watch the watchers) I also think the ME needs to publish the entirety of the autopsy. (Gibbs rule 3(1) Don't beleive what you are told, double check) Only solid proof of a complete collapse of MCC competence will sway me on the fact that it was suicide. I want to see full mea culpas and rolling heads at MCC. If not then they are tacitly admitting that they didn't really screw up.
Well assisted suicide is still suicide, isn't it?
I don't have an emotional stake in whether Epstein was offed or offed himself. I find it highly convenient and highly suspicious.
Dr. Sampson, the Medical Examiner, should answer questions at a press conference about her findings.
I should note that two past famous autopsies. (1) JFK's autopsy is a fucking, scattered mess. But I don't wanna open up that can of worm. (2) The famous pathologist, Dr. Thomas Noguchi, did the RFK autopsy and found that the killshot was point blank, upward trajectory and BEHIND the ear, which seems kinda odd since Sirhan was firing in front 3-6 feet while RFK was marching towards Sirhan.
Has pathologist Dr. Baden chimed in? He's kinda wacky too. Has Dr. Cyril Wecht chimed in? He's a wacky pathologist too.
Another curious thing is how adamant NYT has been in opposition to any conspiracy theory. Now, they don't have to repeat the stories and they can report the facts, but the coverage has been much stronger than that. The article about the coroner's report is: "This is a conclusive finding of suicide and removes all doubt whatsoever." Much stronger than they would have in similar circumstances I think. They also had an op ed trying to argue that the conspiracy theories were an exclusively right wing phenomonon.
I just read a book about the Boston Tea Party. About 150 people took part in it. In the 1830's some Boston paper revealed the names of about sixty of those who participated. The other names are lost to history. We do not know if Samuel Adams or John Hancock took an active part in the planning of the event, although circumstances suggest that they did. Conspiracies exist and some of them are successful.
I predict that the authorities will present a plausible explanation of how the events went down. I predict that a substantial number of people will find flaws and contradictions in that explanation.
Mrs. Wilson and some of her associates conspired to keep the American public and the Congress from learning that her husband had suffered a massive stroke. The conspiracy was successful.....FDR and the American press conspired to keep the American public from learning that the President was a paraplegic. The conspiracy was successful.
The mastermind of the benghazi attack was nabbed last june only the mail covered it, because he was aupposed to have bought it in 2013, conveniently.
Dr. Thomas Noguchi, did the RFK autopsy
Noguchi was a publicity hound. A surgery resident I knew quite well was in the OR at Good Samaritan Hospital when they brought Kennedy in for surgery. When they moved him from the gurney to the OR table, a bullet fell out of his clothes. Carl picked up the bullet, walked outside to the Secret Service and asked, "Anybody want this bullet?"
True story, never made the papers.
I was going to say, why not just watch the video, but remembered the camera "Malfunctioned".
I think it likely he killed himself, but I am troubled by the pathologist's determination as a stand-alone document. The broken bones in the neck should have been enough to leave open the cause of death until a full criminal investigation is completed. Now, perhaps that investigation has mostly been completed and the medical examiner is privy to those details (for example, the ME has seen video proof that no one entered Epstein's cell during that time frame), but that isn't in public evidence and isn't used in this report to justify a ruling of suicide. If the ME isn't privy to the details of the investigation being conducted by the DoJ, then the ME is clearly jumping the gun here by making a conclusion this definitive.
Major memory-holing butt covering.
Blogger tcrosse said...
“Whose body did they examine? Was it Epstein's?”
Surprisingly, this is an issue, and r at least another conspiracy theory. Supposedly, people have taken a picture of “Epstein” taken as they were taking his body out of MCC and it was mostly covered, and used facial recognition software to compare it against photos of him, and determined that there was a high likelihood that it wasn’t he. Both the slope of the forehead and the shape of the nose supposedly don’t match.
This was from a good friend of mine, who follows Q a bit - Q who appears to have maybe warned about Epstein’s death a couple days before it happened. Wonder why Q has a following? Because of things like that, where his cryptic statements are later interpreted as having been prophetic about Deep State corruption.
The science is saddled..
This case makes me curious about the protocol in a situation where a prisoner is found dead in a cell. Is there a formal process to freeze the scene and photograph it? Or, do you call the ME and bundle the body off ASAP?
12% of the people chose "I don't know and I don't care".
Guilty as charged.
No sense in getting wrapped around the wheel on something that's never going to be settled.
We weren't born yesterday and most of us remember being lied to by the government and by the media countless times. In fact, they have lied to us so many times it's quite impossible to believe them if/when they are telling the truth. I shall always remember Nixon's famous, "This is not an invasion of Cambodia". Sorry but my cynicism is honed to a sharp point by now.
You left off, he committed suicide but there's something off about how he was enabled to commit suicide.
They feed theories by withholding facts. Did the broken bone that was supposed to have occurred a couple weeks prior show any signs of healing? It takes six weeks for a. bone to heal, 2 weeks is enough time to show signs of it.
It’s like with the birth cirtificate thing. Withhold the facts, let wild conspiracy theories spread, and nobody will believe the truth any longer if it were printed on the front page.
“In wartime, the truth is so precious it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies” - Winston Churchill (Well, something like that.)
This is a kind of war.
They govern by withholding facts.
This is a kind of war.
Yes, and it's always been said that the first casualty of war is truth.
On Aug. 9, lawyers crowded into the plastic chairs in the meeting room with Mr. Epstein as the world was riveted by news that a court had released a cache of previously sealed documents, providing disturbing details about the sex trafficking accusations against him.
A few hours later, on the overnight shift,
Now they are just taunting us. It’s almost as if the timing was worked out by military planners in a war room. Not a lot of news about the contents of those much anticipated documents.
The above is the NYT to which I maintain a subscription so I can cut and paste the good stuff for you lot.
Hack D news only discuss any Trump connection. Never discuss that Trump threw the guy out of his resort.
Any connections to the Clintons are ignored.
The Epstein lawyers do not believe that he killed himself. He was in "good spirits" the last time they saw him. The pediphile told them that he was attacked by his muscular cellmate earlier. Too many convenient excuses and a rush to declare the death a suicide keeps the conspiracy alive. Besides, Bill Barr is in charge and that is a blaring alarm.
Bill Barr is in charge and that is a blaring alarm.
gadfly is absolutely, positively certain that Bill Clinton never went near Epstein's island and that this is all Trump's fault.
"Any connections to the Clintons are ignored.”
It’s amazing how the timing of Epstein’s death worked so perfectly to smother the story of the implicated Democrats, including Clinton. Yeah, that’s how an evil Republican would plan it.
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