This connects to the Oberlin story we were discussing 2 days ago, when I blogged that I understood the argument that the accusation of racism did not depend entirely on the question whether the suspected shoplifters were guilty. I wrote:
The store clerk seems to have suspected shoplifting not because of the person's race but because he could see 2 wine bottles hidden under his coat, but he "chased the student out onto the street and tackled him," and that's what's racist (in this view). If the chase-and-detain approach is racist, even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism.There's a very long comments thread at that post, and while I haven't read it all, I know many of you resisted what I was saying. I encourage you to continue the conversation here, where the police went wild confronting shoplifters.
ADDED: If I weren't taking this legal issue so seriously, I would be sorely tempted to say now we can replace the question mark in the famous "South Park" mystery....
Phase 1: Collect underpantsPhase 2 is bring a $10 million lawsuit.
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit
Posts
219 comments:
1 – 200 of 219 Newer› Newest»My guess is that family shoplifted before, and the store was sick of it.
Just a hunch.
Chase and detain isn't racist. Arresting shoplifters isn't racist. But what these cops did was stupid and a misuse of authority. That doesn't seem like a hard distinction to make.
He could have avoided it by not stealing. But sure they went overboard, and that should be addressed, but does that mean that small businesses have to accept shoplifting. It’s already hard enough to compete with Amazon, that doesn’t have the shoplifting problem.
I think his kid should be taken away from him though, since he seems to think that an outing with her should include shoplifting.
I think teaching your kid that stealing is acceptable is as bad as any other form of child neglect, and worse than many.
If the chase-and-detain approach is racist...
If everything is racist, nothing is racist.
But I am sure that denizens of the ivory tower who are well insulated from crime have good reason to believe that those exposed to crime are overreacting.
I grew up in a very poor neighborhood. I go back there now and it’s not just poor, but violent and crime-ridden. One of the worst problems with having a low income isn’t the lack of material goods, honestly as a kid I didn’t even notice, it’s the constant exposure to crime and drugs. You need to make the money to get away from those things, not the relative poverty.
"God may help those who help themselves, but this store prosecutes shoplifters."
"Arresting shoplifters isn't racist."
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you? I'm just posing the question hypothetically, not purporting to know what would happen across a broad array of incidents around Oberlin and in Phoenix.
Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black? If it's not true, what would you do to help people gain confidence that they are not being discriminated against. Don't just say everyone should stop committing crimes and anyone who does is responsible for whatever law enforcement rains down upon them. There will always be crime, and part of the rule of law is treating those accused of crime with equal justice and refraining from violations of due process.
Back in the day, people were remorseful and embarrassed when they were caught stealing. Now, if you're black, you try to exploit it for a payoff.
Althouse has led an incredibly protected, sissified existence for 50 years.
Living out her life in the sanitized, perfectly safe, everything guaranteed environment of the campus has done quite a job on the professor's mind.
'Cops Gone Wild!'
A new hit reality show. Better than 'Cops'
But not as good as 'Police Women Gone Wild'
Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black?
No, read the federal crime stats. Blacks are guilty of violent crimes at astounding rates.
A cop who ignores this reality in a big city environment is likely to be murdered.
You don't have any fear, punk. If you did, you wouldn't be talking this way, or acting this way.
accusation of racism
I could tell the criminals were black by the facts that this very minor incident became (in)national news, and that the perp(s) got an unwarranted apology.
I think thieves should be shot on sight, so zero sympathy here.
"Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black?" A big problem.
"If it's not true, what would you do to help people gain confidence that they are not being discriminated against." Get Glenn Loury and John McWhorter to speak around the country to black people, telling them that they are being lied to. Convince decent people of all colors that if they vote for a Democrat, that Democrat needs to be outspoken against race hustlers, not an enabler.
It's sad, and a big problem. But it really isn't my doing. It's theirs.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
No, Ann. Not necessarily. Next?
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist.
Is it?
Confronting repeat shoplifters who happen to be black? Is that racist?
So, Althouse, if you were a cop, you'd ignore the overwhelming evidence that black culture has an epidemic problem with violence and you'd stick your neck out without regard for your own safety?
White people wont even let a black man teach his daughter the family business. That's racism!
White people wont even let a black man wear some drawers. That's racism.
White people wont let a little black girl play with a doll. That's racism.
White people expect black people to actually pay for things in a store. That's racism.
Law enforcement overreacting? That's America. They are lucky the cops didnt blow away a nearby dog just for fun.
If you believe a chase-and-detain policy is racist, aren't you the one bringing in racist assumptions about who does most of the shoplifting?
Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black?
Yes, that is how the left works to put the boot on our neck. First they take a term that everbody agrees is bad and apply it to stuff where there is no such agreement, then they work hard to convince people that oppression is rampant, regardless of the facts by exaggerating isolated incidents.
The important thing is to get the facts out and address incidents as they arise, but the goal is to throw out the whole economic system that has worked so well for everybody. Even our poorest are not poor by world standards of poverty.
Next thing you know you live in a country where any speech that the left hates is “hate speech” and any disagreement with the left is a lie and we have to crawl to the left for permission to fart.
Thus endeth the Enlightenment.
I expect it is uncontroversial to say that some methods of apprehending shoplifters are ok and some methods are not. A general policy of chasing down the shoplifter and stopping them seems reasonable to me and it's hard to imagine how this policy generally applied could be argued to be racist.
Abusing and threatening to shoot a family because one member took something is not reasonable and if there is reason to believe the race of the family played a role in the over-reaction, then it is arguably racist.
Althouse ancestor Cotton Mather wrote: "there was little occasion to prove the witchcraft, it being evident and notorious to all beholders.”
Obviously any business that can’t afford to overlook shoplifting is racist!
I don't know this neighborhood in Phoenix, but here's a phenomenon I encountered frequently back during the bad old days of the crack epidemic in a mixed neighborhood in Brooklyn.
The cops applied maximum force immediately whenever they arrested a black suspect.
They wanted to get it over quickly, because if they didn't a crowd of blacks would gather around them, threatening them, taunting them as racists and making their job much more difficult, and potentially violent.
Black thugs have heard the BS from white liberals that they shouldn't respect the law. They behave accordingly.
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
@Althouse, you taught Con Law and you don’t understand “fighting words”? Shame!
There are two separate issues here:
1. How should people who are suspected of shoplifting be treated? Let them go, confront them and make them return the shoplifted goods and then let them go, call the police and let the police track them down, detain the suspects and call the police? And should there be different appropriate treatment based on whether the suspect is a first-time suspect or a repeat suspect? And finally, was there in this case a decision that there should be different appropriate treatment because the suspect was black not white?
2. Once the police were called, did they over react? And did their reaction seem to be based on race of the suspects?
I believe, but can't prove that a lot of negative interactions between police and blacks is because they are on a negative reinforcement loop (you can start at any point on the loop): blacks have seen evidence that police treat blacks violently; when confronted by a police officer, blacks are more likely to react in a way that anticipates the police will mistreat them; the police observe that blacks when confronted react in a way that seems dangerous to the police officer; police officers are more likely to react in a threatening way when confronting a black suspect. (and then back to blacks have seen evidence that police treat blacks violently).
You can break this downward spiral by encouraging police to temper their natural inclination to treat blacks with suspicion or fear of violence; and/or ou can break this downward spiral by encouraging blacks to temper their natural inclination to treat police with suspicion and fear of violence. The first of these solutions has been and is being tried, especially by the use of body cameras so that police over-reaction can be identified and punished after the fact. The second of these solutions has not been tried, and anyone proposing it is labelled racist.
Just because they are black doesn't make the actions by the police racist. The argument Has to be hey were treated more harshly because of their race. That may or may not be able to be proven, we would need other such situations with members of other races to compare against. If all it takes for an enforcement of the law to be racist is for the perpetrators to be black then how can the law ever be enforced.
What am I missing?
"where the police went wild confronting shoplifters"
Did anyone die?
"Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist."
Depends. For example, if that store has experienced more black shoplifting, a more aggressive approach would be justified as proportional punishment and deterrence."
"Surely, you agree with that, don't you?"
Surely you see how, in view of a rejoinder that you, a former law professor!, should have found obvious, the tone of condescension is inappropriate in this case, don't you?
That said, as conservative I also oppose abuse of authority by law enforcement.
But I suspect the problem for business is not overly zealous law enforcement but overly cautious hesitation to confront actual black crime for fear of being attacked as racist.
The article wasn't too helpful. Maybe if I watched all the videos. But the text focuses on whether they shoplifted. I got that, they shoplifted. What I wanted to see was a clear description of the sequence of events at the arrest. That's what the story is supposed to be about.
The story is not new this morning. New facts this morning. First story that mentions the adults shoplifting. (Quick look at internet. Ah- this is part of the police response. I note the late response and the late delay. The story had made the international news long before this information was released. Time lapse observed and noted.
If the call to the police was put in for adult shoplifting, why was that not reported days ago? Wouldn't that info be in the witness 911 call? We were told a witness, not the store, called the police. I had the impression the store was not involved in the reporting.
Factual Questions:
Did the store, or a unrelated witness call the police?
Did the store report the man shoplifting underwear?
Or was that fact discovered recently by the police, and released for publicity and crisis management reasons?
Had the police been told a adult was a thief before the confrontation by the store? Or is this crisis management after the fact?
Ann says: Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
Allowing black shoplifters to leave passively while pursuing white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Alas it was just a dream...
You want racism? HERE'S RACISM:
The Massachusetts high court ruling says black men are within reason to flee police, and that the act of doing so does not qualify as reason to believe someone is guilty. This move follows the court's decision to throw out a gun conviction for Jimmy Warren, who the court says police didn't have the right to stop in the first place.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/21/494900984/black-men-may-have-cause-to-run-from-police-massachusetts-high-court-says
BLACK men are Now ALLOWED to flee police in Massachusetts, WHITE men are NOT
You Wanted Racism? There you go: BY DEFINITION
Brick and mortar stores are struggling are desperate to gain control over shoplifting.
Yeah it's easy to say every shoplifter should be treated the same, but there are other factors.
-Resisting arrest
-accomplices at the ready to beat up the shop owners
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
Same to you. We just had a 44 million dollar verdict telling us a definition. Go ahead and ignore that at your political peril.
“What I wanted to see was a clear description of the sequence of events at the arrest. “
Ha ha ha ha! Good one. That kind of information is not for the likes of you lot!
Blacks are more likely than other races to evade or resist arrest. That is why Blacks disproportionately get shot by police.
I wrote about the statistics in my blog about Michael Brown, who got shot in Ferguson, Missouri, in 2014.
I can't tell if that was a factor in this particular incident.
However, general discussions of the subject of police treatment of Blacks should include the fact that Blacks evade and resist arrest more.
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
Am I crazy or do I detect a fundamental contradiction here?
Read the article, watched the videos, not enough information. The video of the arrest does not start at the beginning of the police interaction. It’s clear that Dravon steals casually as a matter of course, he’s probably done this hundreds of times before. Can’t judge the police on the evidence provided.
We had a similar instance in the wealthy suburb of Ladue.
The police officer drew her gun rather than a taser and tragedy ensued.
Here in the metaphorical shadow of Ferguson, it’s easy to state that the wages of petty theft should not be paid in blood. OTOH, we prefer that you visit a food bank if you want groceries but have a visceral fear of cash registers.
I believe, but can't prove that a lot of negative interactions between police and blacks is because they are on a negative reinforcement loop
Excellent point. And what action does allowing black shoplifters go do to the feedback loop? It continues the downward spiral.
"Content of their character" is not racist. What does shoplifting say about their character.
Note that at first this story was about how the girl stole a doll. In reality both parent and child stole something. I suspect that was why the perpetrator was resistant to following commands.
I would also be willing to bet that the closest church to that store would have provided all the dolls and underwear needed if they had simply been asked. And provided a character lesson so that the situation never appeared in the first place.
Unfortunately, the young children have no character yet. And their closest role models are not providing good character examples. And so the cycle continues. What actions as a society will provide for a better feedback loop? Certainly not "nod and ignore" shoplifting.
Humperdink said...
Mystified why a guy would steal underwear when Bill Clinton's is available at the local Goodwill store.
You owe me a keyboard!!
The Jurisdiction determines the Jury generosity. That acts as a signal for the remaining white Business owners and Landlords to sell and move. If not, you will become like the Boer Farmers in South Afrika. You will become targeted.
A GIANT difference in the two cases. HUGE.
Ann, you have to look at the facts.
"...and Jay Z is paying their legal bills"
Broader question for me: How does attaching a "famous name" like Jay Z change the legal merits of the case?
Take your child to work day. If successful, this suit will encourage every shoplifter in America to bring a toddler along on their shopping expeditions.
Are the cops supposed to arrest the shoplifters without their guns drawn? Say please?
Phase 2 is bring a $10 million lawsuit.
No, phase 2 is to automatically make an unwarranted accusation of racism...
Interpretive Questions:
What level of force is appropriate when one or two members of the family is suspected of shoplifting a small dollar item? What level of force is appropriate when a witness (not the store) calls in a accusation of a non-violent, small dollar crime? What level of force is appropriate when the store calls in the accusation?
What techniques can help keep everyone safe in a arrest for a non-violent, small dollar accusation, especially when children are in a car or a home?
There is a situation of a white man, in a motel who was suspected of some crime. Video on the internet. I believe he was drunk and innocent without any gun on him. But was shot and killed. He's trying to crawl to the police, he's trying to follow police direction, while the police are yelling and appear to be terrified. Civilian is dead. I believe David French has written on this case. There is a discussion to be had about improving police techniques and discipline towards all civilians in arrest or apprehension situations.
Does racism have to be proved or disproved?
I remind the audience you can’t prove a negative.
How about we just allow the shop owners to beat the shit out of shoplifters instead?
The family is good looking. Perhaps it should be legal for the attractive to shoplift?
Why would Jay Z have to pay the legal bills. Should this be a percentage of recovery type deal? Or is it just such a bad case no one would take otherwise.
If the same thing happened to a white family, would they sue for $10 million?
Would Jay-Z pay their legal bills?
Would we even hear about it?
If not, perhaps racism IS at work here.
"Am I crazy or do I detect a fundamental contradiction here?"
Nope.
Oh, that case was from Arizona. I had forgotten that fact.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/?utm_term=.110d393efe9d
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html
NB: The ticket cashed in here to come in and demand free stuff is the same system enforced by the lawless open border Democrat strategists starting with Obama. Free stuff seekers need only bring a child with them as a prop and the police must stand down. If the police follow the law, they and will be the ones in trouble . Ask Sheriff Arpaio how it worked for him.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist.
You are assuming intent, you can't possibly know what the motive of the cops is. Try to think about all the other reasons why they would confront black criminal activity more aggressively than they deal with latino, asian and white criminality.
You are also ignoring all the BLACK cops who confront black criminals more aggressively than they do other races. Is it racist when they do it?
Here's David French writing on the matter.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/police-murder-daniel-shaver/
This yelling (and suing) by the shoplifters is more deflection to avoid confronting the truth: the shoplifters are thieves.
The cops used whatever protocols they use when apprehending thieves. Apparently, these protocols are also used when arresting white collar criminals (Paul Manafort) and when investigating non-crimes (the John Doe investigation in Wisconsin).
This isn't about racism; it's about trying to change the subject.
"@Althouse, you taught Con Law and you don’t understand “fighting words”? Shame!"
Try to make a cogent point about fighting words so that you are in a position to be told you are wrong. You're not saying anything here but wildly shouting "shame." Utter bullshit on your part. I probably shouldn't give you a personal response, but I am giving you a chance to step up. You will not be able to do this, so I'll say in advance for the other readers that you are so wrong there's no way you can be right, no matter what you say.
OJ made the news yesterday. His still is the most famous case of blacks being awarded reparations by a Jury for past white racism. The next case was wrongful death civil damages and Orange County found the truthful Verdict.
I have no idea if this has any racial aspect.
But the police go at everything like they are under threat, and we go at everything like we are just living our day. And the police seem to often be terrible at respecting the idea that their perceived threat is not the first thing on our mind. We are shocked by their response to us when we are not threatening them. I get they have dangerous jobs, but every interaction with them shouldn't be dangerous for us as citizens. They don't need to put our lives under threat just because they think theirs might be. I know it's tough, but they are professionals.
They shouldn't have gone at this the way they did. "They thought they were armed". Well, that's always what the police think. And this family just thought, we are at home not hurting anybody.
There is a discussion to be had about improving police techniques and discipline towards all civilians in arrest or apprehension situations.
Agree completely. I had an interaction with police in a Baltimore hotel parking lot where I was staying. They were idiots. Blinding me with a flashlight without identifying themselves, very lucky I didn't reach behind my back or I would likely have been shot (although they probably would have missed, having so little range time). Their carry procedures were unsafe too.
But the most disconcerting thing was how twitchy they were. They told to point to where I had seen something across the lot, and when I did, they both almost pulled on me.
Being a Marine you get extensive firearm training. I find cops more scary than a toddler with an AK.
I want to see the written contract between Jay Z and these people and their lawyers.
If it is a PI case, they don't need their fees paid.
Yesterday on the terminal train at Charles de gaulle airport a team of three teens pickpocketed the cash from my partner's purse. A team of 3 plainclothes police nabbed them. No guns used although of course police armed--and bigger than the teens.
"Arresting shoplifters isn't racist."
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.”
“Racist” is in the process of being redefined by the left here in this country for their own political reasons. You are correct that when enough people misuse a word long enough, the new definition may ultimately prevail. But I don’t yet accept their new (mis)definition, and very likely the bulk of the country, who don’t regularly read the NYT, or live close to leftist universities, also don’t accept the new definition of the word being foisted upon us by our self identified betters. I would expect, from the comments here, that most of your commenters here don’t accept the new definition, and, instead believe that the purpose of the word here, as it was at Oberlin, was to cover up and distract from lawbreaking
Hey, a shoplifter carjacked me in his getaway attempt. You never know what a criminal will do.
Perhaps one major reason why Blacks disproportionately evade and resist arrest is that they might be able to turn the incident into a racism accusation if necessary.
They might be able to deflect the focus from their own criminal action onto the racist excessive force of the arrester.
Therefore, evading and resisting arrest has become rather reflexive in many Blacks.
In the Oberlin situation, the three Black shoplifters used both techniques -- evading and resisting the shop's clerk.
Although Blacks comprise only a small minority of the Oberlin students, they apparently have indoctrinated most of the campus with the viewpoint that Blacks are right to evade and resist arrest.
That viewpoint is still considered to be wrong, however, outside of the campus, in the ordinary community.
'...but he "chased the student out onto the street and tackled him," and that's what's racist (in this view). If the chase-and-detain approach is racist, even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism...
...and while I haven't read it all, I know many of you resisted what I was saying.'
Because no case was made for *why* that was any more inherently racist than the first scenario. Sometimes you appear to confuse people not accepting your assumptions, and people not understanding your point.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
Yes. No one disagrees with that. But other people are more interested in examining whether that is actually true, and going on from there. You're more interested in going 'round and 'round about a hypothetical that may not have much purchase in reality - and one suspects that's because you prefer the world view that scenario rests on to the alternatives.
Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black?
Yes, but who's causing this problem? You're really letting you're clueless NWL (nice white lady) freak-flag fly here:
'If it's not true, what would you do to help people gain confidence that they are not being discriminated against.'
Gee, nobody's ever pondered this "community policing" idea before. If only people weren't so racist, they'd try this sort of thing.
'Don't just say everyone should stop committing crimes and anyone who does is responsible for whatever law enforcement rains down upon them.'
I'm pretty sure few people here aren't sympathetic to the notion that state authority (including the police) is prone to behaving like a pack of thugs. Think about the pushback you're getting in that context.
'There will always be crime, and part of the rule of law is treating those accused of crime with equal justice and refraining from violations of due process.'
Beg the question much?
You want to talk about practice?!
Government actors abuse the authority and power. Now. What am I supposed to do about it?
Convene a panel that consists of Mueller and his team, on one side, and the business contacts, and families of those the Mueller team harassed on the other side.
An early morning SWAT raid on a seventy year old man that has spent his entire life leaving the house in a suit? Abuse of power.
This instance? meh. Racism? Nope. Not listening, not caring. The loony left has lied too often. I don't care. You can't cajole me into caring.
I rarely question our hosts motives, because the motives are all hers and she maintains my playground, but my experience with the left on anything, tells me what ever ground I cede to their demands, will never be enough to prove myself worthy. I stopped long ago falling for their demands, no matter how reasonable.
Yesterday, in discussion of the Oberlin verdict, commenters wondered how a young person can believe there are no consequences to theft. Today this little girl shows us how.
Maybe Jay-Z should pay for some vocational training for this gentleman.
Black shoplifting is just reparations on the installment plan. They are allowed to commit petty crimes without consequence.
“Back in the day, people were remorseful and embarrassed when they were caught stealing. Now, if you're black, you try to exploit it for a payoff.”
Sadly true. More sadly, the first step on a road that leads to frontier justice for criminals of any color.
"there was little occasion to prove the witchcraft, it being evident and notorious to all beholders.” - Cotton Mathers
“Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black?” - Althouse
Yeah, Cotton Mathers pretty much shows why people’s beliefs can be a serious problem, but one would have thought that the lesson to be drawn would be that strict rules of evidence should be applied.
Reading Althouse’s comments though, it almost seems like there is some great groundswell on the right supporting the cops’ apparently excessive use of force. I would like to know the whole story, but I have serious doubts that we ever will, with the racism “being evident and notorious to all beholders” and all.
When does the process of putting a dragnet through all of America’s laws and changing those where the meaning of words has been changed by the left begin? Oh, that’s what we are doing now!
To clarify my comment @8:29: When I wrote, "Yes. No one disagrees with that", I meant no one would disagree ceteris paribus. But the ceteris ain't paribus, as many here keep trying to point out.
The new District Attorney in Dallas made a pronouncement a while back that his office would not longer prosecute thefts of less than a $750 dollar value.
The minor uproar that ensued was from conservative talk radio and Dallas shop owners. He has since backtracked to saying only $750 of necessities like food and diapers.
It's turtles all they way down.
The chicken or the egg. I was just reading a book about Wellington's...
Penninsular Campaign.About 30% of Wellington's army was composed of Irish troops. The overwhelming majority of those soldiers sentenced to floggings for theft of officers' belongings were Irish soldiers.....The Irish Catholics were not allowed to hold officer rank. Their language and their land had been stolen from them. They had every reason to resent their English officers and steal from them, and the English officers had every reason to suspect them of theft.......The French army, by way of contrast,had eliminated the use of flogging. That was all to the good, but it should be noted that the French army had a bad reputation for rape and looting....Black shoplifters may, in fact, be treated unfairly, but there is also, in fact, a downside to eliminating all penalties for such a crime.
a
One thing we slouched into was every city of any size claiming to have a "professional police force." Six months the training does not make a professional, and they shouldn't be evaluated by such a standard.
Do any of y'all watch Live PD? It's on almost every afternoon/evening on A&E. From what I have seen, the majority of the citizens the cops interact with are the crazies and druggies. Does that give an officer a jaded view of life?
Gahrie said...
How about we just allow the shop owners to beat the shit out of shoplifters instead?
I know this is sarcasm, making a point, worth making. It carries way too much truth, most won't see. The Oberlin case, the college was willing to negotiate the settlement, with the shop keeper agreeing NOT to call police, instead call the collage to remediate the crime.
You and I, everyone, has the constitutional power to protect ourselves and our property. As a society we agreed to delegate that power to trained professional law enforcement persons. If that delegation of power becomes ineffective, we the people, are going to exercise that power.
Leftis insist on handcuffing police, failing to understand we the people will take up the slack. (the left will not like the outcome)
The police ought to just pass a note saying they have a gun, like bank robbers do to tellers.
The politically most noteworthy aspect of the case is the reaction of the Althouses of America: "Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist." Etc. etc.
Progs successfully use "racism" as a tool in the culture war by exploiting the nice-white-lady inclinations of liberal women. And that's how you get more "racism."
The problem is cultural.
A healthy culture maintains its own order, and policemen are mostly symbolic functionaries. This is why British police were essentially unarmed for over a century.
Note also that other European police customarily went unarmed as well.
No law will cure social disorder, nor will any level of law enforcement. These are lids on boiling pots, meant to prevent too much of a mess. The problem is that the pot is boiling in the first place.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
How about asking if black shoplifters confront those attempting to detain them more aggressively ?
Jesus !
For example.
There are incidents of racial profiling but they are not common and there are apologies,.
when I blogged that I understood the argument that the accusation of racism did not depend entirely on the question whether the suspected shoplifters were guilty.
The key is understanding the facts. In that case the store's agent only apprehended the shoplifter. There's nothing inherently racist about this, it's long been common and used against people of all races. Sure we could have invented facts which would make that event analogous to the current story, for example the employee could have shot him in the head after shouting the N-word 16 times. Would this have proven your position? I don't think so because having to invent the action which links to racism is an admission no linkage exists in reality.
The only evidence cited by those supportive would render all law racist. Blacks disproportionately shoplift and commit murder. If we accept disproportional representation as invalidating laws against theft why would it not also invalidate those against murder? Somalia and Mexico are available to those who think this an appropriate conclusion. Since no one supportive would do this we can conclude even they do not believe the principle they are asserting and can safely reject it.
Jeri Williams is the mother of a popular NBA player who was with the Suns for awhile. I don't think these guys will get lucky in their lawsuit. Phoenix will probably settle, but it won't be for millions.
Do we have one class of citizens to which the laws equally apply to and another that are exempt?
If I am from Central America, can I come into this country without a visa or passport?
If I am a Black student at Oberlin College, can I steal wine from a store?
If I am Hillary Clinton, can I take bribes from foreigners, conduct secret government business on an insecure private server and then delete the emails?
That's the issue! Equal justice under the law.
“But the police go at everything like they are under threat, and we go at everything like we are just living our day. And the police seem to often be terrible at respecting the idea that their perceived threat is not the first thing on our mind. We are shocked by their response to us when we are not threatening them. I get they have dangerous jobs, but every interaction with them shouldn't be dangerous for us as citizens. They don't need to put our lives under threat just because they think theirs might be. I know it's tough, but they are professionals.
They shouldn't have gone at this the way they did. "They thought they were armed". Well, that's always what the police think. And this family just thought, we are at home not hurting anybody.”
This is one of the things that I have to keep in mind when we move back south to the PHX area each fall (we live 2 blocks from the PHX line, so run into PHX PD on a regular basis). Here, in rural MT, there is a gun in pretty much every truck ( though I probably have more, due to issues with my partner about the garage door). And the cops aren’t that twitchy. At least if you don’t look like a tweaker.
In early January, we had the first officer involved shooting this year in the PHX metro area 4 blocks from the house, right on the city line, so don’t know which jurisdiction had up all the crime scene tape. Turned out to have been the end of a high speed chase that started with shoplifting, and ended, maybe 10 miles later, with gun fire on both sides. Except that the perps weren’t just one time shoplifters, but rather armed felons (and, yes, there is a felony that they call “felon in possession”). That was why the cops involved engaged in the high speed pursuit very early that morning - everyone involved on both sides knew that the occupants in the car were going back to prison.
PHX is a big city with big city crime problems. But in its defense, and in defense of law enforcement there, they haven’t lost the fight against crime, and given up, as they seem to have in other big cities across the country - though the purchase of the Maricopa Sheriff’s office by the left last year isn’t going to help things one bit. Instead of working hard to keep crime down, as they had under Sheriff Joe, they now seem more likely to be involved in investigating alleged police overreactions.
When you read a history book, especially a modern history book, the privilege of the nobility comes up. They didn't think the law applied to them, mostly because they were usually the ones with the best ability to enforce the law at the tip of a sword. Even then, there were limits, otherwise you risked open rebellion and the early disintegration of the Christian religion.
Now you have black supremacists who insists that anything short of noble privilege to steal at will is racism. This won't affect states with low minority populations, and the former Confederate states know how to deal with such things. That leaves... hmmm, rich urban centers that are majority minority, or close to it. They will certainly have difficulties, but that's also not my problem.
I actually get Althouse's point, which is that if the police hunt down some suspects over a $5 dollar store theft but not others, that's RACISM. The problem is that when police are told to either let feral minorities loot businesses, or face $10 million lawsuits, eventually a market for vigilante services will grow. And those guys won't just follow shoplifters home, but send a message that chronic thieving can be bad for your children's health.
Guns tend to be overused by US police.
And we all know cases where the police treat ordinary house arrests like assaults on a bunker complex and go in acting like commandos.
Granted the people they confront are too often armed or otherwise dangerous, but this excess force itself serves to escalate the problem.
@Althouse, you taught Con Law and you don’t understand “fighting words”? Shame!
"Con Law" is just a phrase. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
"Don’t understand" is just a phrase. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
"Fighting words" is just a phrase. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
"Shame!" is just a funny. It makes appropriate fun of SJWs like Althouse.
"Do any of y'all watch Live PD? It's on almost every afternoon/evening on A&E. From what I have seen, the majority of the citizens the cops interact with are the crazies and druggies. Does that give an officer a jaded view of life?"
Have you listened to this episode of "The American Life" about "Live PD"? What exactly do you think you are watching there? Reality?
And as wwww points out, Arizona police officers overreact to white people too
Besides that case, there's also the case of a police officer shooting a white woman who was filling phony prescriptions.
Why didn't the cops in that Phoenix incident have their body cams running?
Dave B @ 8:58
!
They wanted to get it over quickly, because if they didn't a crowd of blacks would gather around them, threatening them, taunting them as racists and making their job much more difficult, and potentially violent.
Black thugs have heard the BS from white liberals that they shouldn't respect the law. They behave accordingly.
In that incident that I linked to above, a group of the black thugs doing the shoplifting were surrounded by a group of about 30 leftist woman activists to "protect" them from the police. That is racism of the "acceptable: kind.
North Michigan Avenue has been a jewel of high end stores and cafes for 40 years. Now, I doubt we will visit after dark when we go back because it is over run by black gangs now. Even in daytime, whites are assaulted and the new black Mayor is threatening police.
@Althouse, challenge accepted. Texas v. Johnson, fighting words are "a direct personal insult or an invitation to exchange fisticuffs."
Being called a racist so insults me that I feel constrained to beat the crap out of anyone doing so. If you, Althouse, were to call me a racist to my face I would feel compelled to punch you good and hard in the mouth, overcoming my natural tendency not to hit a woman and also risking that Meade would feel compelled to hit me just as hard and not stop punching -- and as I have often written, Meade looks like the wiry sort of guy that you leave alone in a bar fight.
Not that I've ever been in a bar fight.
Shouting Thomas said:
"Black thugs have heard the BS from white liberals that they shouldn't respect the law. They behave accordingly."
In the Madison public schools the formal policy is to ignore inappropriate behavior by blacks because they commit a disproportionate number of the in-school offenses.
Nobody in The Special People Club never dindu nuffin.
That's interesting--when the story and video first went around the only theft mentioned was the 4 year old stealing a doll. That's how it was framed: 4 year old shoplifts a doll and crazy, racist cops point guns in an innocent mother's face.
How interesting to note that an adult was also shoplifting! How often do shoplifters use the presence of children to facilitate their crimes, do you think?
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" are just words also. The wordsmiths of the legal left have been after that one for years. I see how they want to use them, but they don't own the actual guns.
We keep sending people the message we should all "shop local". Keep the mom and pop stores in business. Patronize local artists. Let them know we support them. Then we tell the shop owners they need to let some of us steal from them. Because if they don't, they're racist. Maybe the cops should just use their tasers immediately. On anybody. When the person goes down, handcuff him. Then conduct the interview. Or give every store owner a taser. No chasing required. Just zap the suspected perp.
@ Buwaya, YES! Guns are over-used by the police in the United States. At minimum they should be subject to the ROE that apply to US Marines in Afghanistan. You can't shoot unless someone shoots at you first.
He could have avoided it by not stealing. But sure they went overboard, and that should be addressed, but does that mean that small businesses have to accept shoplifting.
True enough and reasonable people shouldn't have any problems agreeing with this. The fact that the police went overboard is unrelated to his current/prior shoplifting so I don't see any problem with the lawsuit either.
Ann,
Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black?
Since this was in response to my comment 6/18/19, 7:28 AM:
I am of two minds. Mostly I think you can't do anything but be fair, make sure officers are well-trained, impress on them that a person with a camera could well be recording. I don't think PR initiatives are going to work. No matter how many times police officials say, "We really, really condemn racism" (oh, there's that word), it's not going to have much effect.
But my other mind thinks it might actually be good if black people thought, "I run the risk of being treated worse because the black crime rate is so much higher. My brothers and sisters are imperiling me. They need to fix themselves." But that's not what anyone respectable says. Instead, it's "You run the risk of being mistreated because this society is racist." As in the famous breakup line, "It's not you, it's me." But seeing as how most respectable opinion makers avoid non-vetted black people, it may be just as phony.
Show me the "clean hands" before you get to trial.
The judges who allow this bull shit to proceed are undermining society.
Luckily this takes the focus off the pathetic story of a Dad and his 4yr old simultaneously stealing.
"@Althouse, challenge accepted. Texas v. Johnson, fighting words are "a direct personal insult or an invitation to exchange fisticuffs." Being called a racist so insults me that I feel constrained to beat the crap out of anyone doing so."
And if you do that, in some situation that isn't even the subject of anything I'm writing about here, you will be guilty of assault. You don't have a privilege to beat people up if you get mad.
Also, my post isn't about in-person insults that might lead to street fights, so you're saying something completely irrelevant, but if it were relevant, it would have to do with whether the government could punish the person delivering the insult, and we're not talking about anything like the government trying to punish anyone for using the word "racist." So it's totally irrelevant that there's a narrow exception for the protection of free speech called "fighting words." That has to do with the scope of the defense the OTHER PERSON might have IF he were charged with, say, disorderly conduct for calling someone a racist in some in-person situation. So irrelevant to the subject here, yet you SHAMED me for not bringing it up!
"If you, Althouse, were to call me a racist to my face I would feel compelled to punch you good and hard in the mouth, overcoming my natural tendency not to hit a woman and also risking that Meade would feel compelled to hit me just as hard and not stop punching -- and as I have often written, Meade looks like the wiry sort of guy that you leave alone in a bar fight. Not that I've ever been in a bar fight."
Tough luck for you though when you are arrested for committing a crime. You have no First Amendment defense based on your impulse control problem and the other person's mouthing off to you.
You're just plain wrong, as I knew you would be. How about the apology? If not, shame on YOU!
though the purchase of the Maricopa Sheriff’s office by the left last year isn’t going to help things one bit.
Soros spent $800,000 to elect that sheriff in PHX.
Tucson had a leftist sheriff and his office was staffed by the mother of the psychotic who shot Gabby Giffords. She had suppressed all the complaints about her son from students at Pima JC who were afraid of him. After the shooting that sheriff was the source of much of the libelous statements about Sarah Palin. He was defeated in the next election.
Tucson has less crime and fewer black residents than Phoenix. There is plenty of crime in the south Tucson area but most is Hispanic and a lot domestic violence. Not much directed at other citizens.
From a 2014 Wisconsin State Journal article:
"The overhaul of the district’s discipline policy began in September and was largely driven by a desire to reduce the disparate rate at which black students were being suspended or expelled from school.
Nichelle Nichols, chief academic officer at the Boys & Girls Club of Dane County, said Monday that black students have “suffered” under the current code which has resulted in isolation and segregation in district schools. She said the new direction provides a way for black students to have an equal opportunity to their education.
Though black students represent 20 percent of the district’s student population, they receive about 60 percent of the district’s behavior referrals and suspensions, according to a district report on 2012-13 behavior data. Low-income students make up 48 percent of the district’s student population, but received 85 percent of the district’s suspensions. White students comprise 45 percent of the district’s population and receive 16 percent of the district’s behavior referrals, and 15 percent of suspensions."
How do we know that white criminals who steal candy aren't treated with the same disrespect (sic)?
"When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
Humpty Dumpty was a lawprof. Who knew?
You're more interested in going 'round and 'round about a hypothetical that may not have much purchase in reality - and one suspects that's because you prefer the world view that scenario rests on to the alternatives.
Justice is important, but clicks are far more important. Be sure to use her Amazon portal!
It's like the little girl with the gun in her face, and how to prevent that from happening, is not really the focus.
Don't take your kid on a shoplifting expedition.
Many of us might even consider doing that a form of child abuse.
Are the cops supposed to arrest the shoplifters without their guns drawn? Say please?
When we first moved to Maryland I started working for LP (Loss Prevention) at Macy's. We're the ones behind the cam bubbles in the ceiling. Two relevant stories:
First one was the black mother using her tyke in a baby stroller as a prop to shoplift. She would place items on the stroller and casually roll outside through the doors. It's a common tactic. Our LP manager was a very capable female, but when they stopped the black shoplifter and brought her back to the LP office to wait for police she became aggressive, and she had about 150 pounds on our LP lady. So we were asked to come back and provide muscle, mainly via intimidation. I remember being very aware that I should not touch the shoplifter, that I would likely be falsely charged with racism by people like Althouse and sued into oblivion.
So the police finally arrive, it's a female officer, and the black shoplifter is playing the "I'm on my cellphone I'll be right with you" game and also the "why won't you let me take my baby to the bathroom, you cruel racist bitch" card. Me and the other guy were rendered impotent, we aren't stupid. But the white female police officer simply stepped forward, push her open hand against the shoplifter's throat and shoved her into back wall. Very quickly establishing dominance and signaling that she wouldn't go along with that bullshit.
Second incident was a young black girl trying to return a dress. Her issue got forwarded all the way up to the Store Manager. Turns out she was playing this common "buy an expensive dress for special event and return it next day for full refund" game. And also "you won't give me a refund cause you're racist" game. I got suspicious when she handed me her Drivers License and I noticed one of the letters had been defaced with a needle, making her DL# unreadable. So I walk out of the GM's office toward LP to ask about the ID, and guess who I find near a coat rack on the phone coaching her daughter how to scam the GM? What a wonderful mother... Afterwards, the GM was distraught. White female liberal, and like Althouse, overly sympathetic views about "racism" directed at blacks. I had to talk her down from false shame, explain that "no you really aren't racist" and MLK would turn in his grave at how they had tried to exploit racism for personal gain.
Oh, a common thread here - people think they are being so clever, but everyone has the same idea. Sure, the cops appear jaded and cold, but maybe it's because they've already seen this con attempted 3 times that week?
Why didn't the cops in that Phoenix incident have their body cams running?
I agree because most body cam video shows the complainer is lying. Many, many examples.
"But what these cops did was stupid and a misuse of authority" and similar comments turn my stomach. Guns were drawn because a family of professional shoplifters fled the scene, fled the cops, in a car they culturally appropriated (which if they actually bought, they bought with stolen money), with a driver who had a suspended license and active warrants, refused lawful commands to show their hands and exit the vehicle, and resisted arrest. So much for "Tha rayciss polees wantud a shoot a blak gerl jess fo taken a wun dolla doll!"
Anyone who make excuses for those filthy dindus deserves a bullet up the ass. Keep pushing this shit and you'll get it.
We get into the narrative of 'proportional response': a major downfall of the British justice system which started several decades ago. The problem comes post-incident.
Knowing the facts of the case, should it even need police - with guns! - to go and arrest someone for shoplifting underwear? Why would a cop even be concerned with a traffic stop where someone failed to use their turn signal correctly? Not exactly a crime of the century.
Proportional response always favors criminals. Always.
Althouse has no concern, most Left-leaners don't, with the reaction of the majority.
She thinks the expansion of the definition will be casually accepted.
A poll of the Oberlin jury found them in disagreement.
12 to zero.
The air in that Ivory Tower must be thin.
"Racist" is just a word.
If that's true then why do we have to mask the n-word? I can't even type it out here to argue against using it. A professor recently used it that way in class (last week via Insty?) and all hell broke loose. He will likely lose his job.
What other word has such power? So sorry, but it's hardly "just" a word.
Ann Althouse said...
Why didn't the cops in that Phoenix incident have their body cams running?
They didn't have body cams.
Local media is also reporting that police allege that Dravon Ames acted agressively when confronted and at one point made a move to reach into the center console of his vehicle. Hence the guns coming out.
Althouse believes the police will help her.
The people she is advocating for believe the opposite.
It might be best if Althouse devotes her day to persuasion of those who disagree with her and need help.
"Shoplifting" is just a word. "Borrowing" could be substituted.
Blogger Fen said...
"Racist" is just a word.
If that's true then why do we have to mask the n-word? I can't even type it out here to argue against using it.
6/18/19, 9:37 AM
Pretty sure Althouse doesn't hold with that word. I wouldn't use it in front of my parents, they have class. But if I wanted to use it badly enough, you couldn't stop me. Well, Althouse could, but only here.
Fuck dat kontent a thay caracta booshit! Wee dun tryd dat an it dint werk owt fo uss! inny way, Marten Loother Koon was jess a unka Tom!
In the Daily Mail sidebar, I learned Adam Lambert isnow eschewing antiperspirant.
TMI
"I agree because most body cam video shows the complainer is lying. Many, many examples."
And the vast majority of the complainers can't blush.
Ann Althouse said...Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black? If it's not true, what would you do to help people gain confidence that they are not being discriminated against.
This is where an inconsistency comes in, it seems like, one I'm not sure can be explained away other than through psychology.
For SOME people/groups you say it's vitally important we take seriously, treat with empathy, and do our best to address their belief in some injustice. Even if it's not the case that black people are being discriminated against, or if you don't agree, in this situation the BELIEF that they are is harmful and something we all have a duty to address. Right?
But take some other group, say, men who think paternity/child support laws are unfair and unjust. Even if it's not the case that their treatment is unjust, or if you don't agree, in that situation do you treat their BELIEF as something that should be treated with empathy and that we all have a duty to address?
Well, no--exactly the opposite. You mock them for that belief, belittle the feelings and motivations ("little men, whining about their meager money") and actually congratulate yourself for openly mocking their expressions of emotions related to that belief ("I laugh in your scrunched up crying little face").
Imagine someone saying "these black people complaining about discrimination are wrong: they're not discriminated against and their complaints about their incorrect belief are something we should all mock--I laugh in their faces!"
Some beliefs regarding injustice are important and we all must treat them with respect, even if we think they're wrong. Some beliefs regarding injustice are so ridiculous we must laugh at them and take pride in mocking the people expressing them.
Seems inconsistent! Possibly I just don't get how nice centrist people understand empathy--on the surface there appears to be a strong measure of question-begging involved in deciding who we must care about and who we should mock for their feelings.
a family of professional shoplifters fled the scene, fled the cops, in a car they culturally appropriated (which if they actually bought, they bought with stolen money), with a driver who had a suspended license and active warrants, refused lawful commands to show their hands and exit the vehicle, and resisted arrest.
As usual, we discover that Micheal Brown did not have his hands up, was rushing the officer he had just knocked unconscious, and was not "executed in the street". Imagine that.
In related news, Jussie Smollett is still looking for the two white MAGA Bleach & Noose dudes who assaulted him for "walking while black". SMH.
From the article, sounds like the family has poor legal representation:
Their lawyers were hesitant to admit or deny whether they had stolen anything but said it not have mattered if they'd stolen the whole store - they did not deserve to have guns pointed in their faces when they were unarmed.
There is no way to determine the perp is unarmed until after he is detained. Suspects fleeing the scene and resisting arrest do not get the benefit of doubt. You treat them as an armed threat or you explain to your best friend's wife why her husband is dead.
"Racist" is just a word. It acquires meaning through use. I see how you want to use it, but you don't own it.
Well then, if everyone keeps saying cops are racist, by the imputed definition it becomes true.
If everyone keeps saying black people can’t be racist, the definition changes yet again.
We are a nation of laws such that a diverse and pluralistic people could live together.
There is no society which can be held together through social justice.
@Althouse, no apology. You have written that "'Racist' is just a word" and that we don't own it. But my point is that neither do you own it. You cannot say that it is just a word like any other word and if any of us react strongly to the word then that's just our own "impulse control problem."
Words can hurt. If they didn't, then you wouldn't use them. But people who are hurt will retaliate. Where, along the way, did you forget that?
I watch a lot of what my lady calls "bang bang videos". The ones showing deadly force encounters, usually on surveillance video, or body cams. They show you a world most of us never see, or even imagine. A world where some people are heartless, compassionless psychopaths, who will shoot, stab, or beat you to death without any need for a real reason, but especially if you get in their way or resist them getting what they want. I'm sure cops watch a lot of these, and often cops are the victims in them. These incidents take place in our own cities, and often in the same places we visit daily, but are lucky enough to not be there at the wrong time.
Watching that and learning where and how it happens, a person cannot help but become paranoid about other humans, and especially criminals. Not really "paranoid", but aware. Nobody expects to be killed everyday as much as a cop, whether that fear is justified or not. Every cop knows other cops who have been killed doing exactly what they do every day. Under those conditions, it's hard to keep your only protection undeployed - a firearm and aggressiveness. I wish they could, but it's asking a lot from another person. They have a different reality, one with much more dire consequences than most of us at work. I really dislike the approach these cops took in this case, but I also understand it. You can find dozens of instances of cops in situation just like this where one of the suspects suddenly pulls a gun or knife and tries their best to kill the cop, and often succeeds.
So, that's why this is news... Diversitists, including racists, are conflating color and character, class and individual, and literally throwing the baby out for what is social progress. Diversity breeds adversity.
The N word is just a word, but some people apparently own it.
Big Mike,
Althouse believes the police will help her.
My 9:42am anticipated your response.
She thinks the majority won't respond in ways she might not like.
My 9:37am guesses at her underlying beliefs.
Althouse is an Ivory Tower egghead.
She's never experienced most of the things she guesses at.
"______ is just a word" is probably one of the dumbest observations ever made, and I know about dumb observations, but "dumb" is just a word too.
"I really dislike the approach these cops took in this case... "
You ruined a perfectly good comment with that shit, bag.
You are part of the problem. I seriously hope you get murdered painfully by a dindu nuffin.
Example:
Althouse assumes you (most people?) - who reacts violently - will be found, prosecuted, and convicted.
Real world experience suggests otherwise.
Upon what real world experience is Ann's opinion based?
Nobody expects to be killed everyday as much as a cop, whether that fear is justified or not.
Yup. I catch them at 711 some nights on break, 4-6 of them back near the coffee machines chatting with each other. When I walk up they check me out like I'm a 20 year old college girl in a wet t-shirt. And they always glance to my hands first.
When I've had to approach them on the street, I always keep my hands open and raised slightly in front of me. Looks stupid but so does a closed casket.
"Justice is important, but clicks are far more important. Be sure to use her Amazon portal!"
LOL.
Dave Begley said...
Do we have one class of citizens to which the laws equally apply to and another that are exempt?
Why yes, yes we Do! Any other Questions?
The first two times I read about this incident the only shoplifted item mentioned was the toddler taking a cheap (99 cents) doll. Toddlers sometimes do very wrong things because they are, after all, toddlers and still learning things.
But now I discover that the father also shoplifted, and that the toddler was openly carrying the doll, so that her parents could have -- should have! -- seen it and known that she had picked it up without them paying for it.
Other things we do not know:
(1) What did the arresting officers know about the crime when they surrounded the car? Did they know it was for some underwear and a cheap doll? Or were they not informed of the nature of the crime and thus had to be prepared for any contingency?
(2) What are the experiences of the Phoenix police when making "routine traffic stops" of black men or arrests for minor crimes? Have they uniformly peaceably accepted arrest? Or have such traffic stops and arrests sometimes escalated into violence? I agree with those upthread who say that today's police seem too ready to resort to guns, but their badge is not meant to be a point of aim.
(3) Dollar stores are extremely low margin businesses. The sort of upscale stores Althouse shops at in Madison can afford some light loss to theft; not so your average dollar store.
(4) The track that "Progressives" want to take us down leads inexorably to a two-tiered justice system, where it is "racist" to address criminal acts by black persons but okay to arrest whites, Hispanics, and Asians. Althouse invites us to discuss. Well, my contribution to the discussion is that IT. WON'T. WORK.
"Suspects fleeing the scene and resisting arrest do not get the benefit of doubt."
Police released the adults shoplifting stuff in the last 24 hours. The story has been out for days. We were told that the store did not call in shoplifting. We were told a unrelated witness called it in. We were told the family did not "flee" but had left the store unaware their was any problem.
This is new information. Did the store call the police for an adult stealing underwear or Did a unrelated witness call the police because a 5 year old girl picked up a doll? When did the police discover the adult stealing underwear? WAs this discovered in the last 24 hours, after the police watched the security tape? The sequence of events is significant. The police has a interest in telling the public the adult stole underwear, even if this fact was unrelated to the apprehension or call to the police.
We do not know the sequence of events or the accurate facts in this case.
WWWW
This is beginning to sound like the Travyon Martin affair in the sense that there is lots to this story.
Tom Wolfe predicted all of this in "The Bonfire of the Vanities."
"I really dislike the approach these cops took in this case... "
"You ruined a perfectly good comment with that shit. You are part of the problem. I seriously hope you get murdered painfully by a dindu nuffin."
That approach may have protected the cops, but justified or not it greatly increased the chances of an innocent unarmed person being shot, including bystanders. There were dozens of people in serious danger as soon as those guns came out. I carry one every waking hour of the day, but I understand how dangerous they are when people are scared and situations are tense. If you or your family were the backstop, I bet you would appreciate them having more restraint, which I humbly think was possible. The objective is to safeguard the community, not just the cops. They could have done better and safer.
GWINNETT COUNTY, Ga. - Police are searching for an accused shoplifter who shot and killed a Loss Prevention Officer at Walmart Sunday night.
It happened at the discount retail store on Lawrenceville Highway in Lilburn just after 9 p.m. - Cox Media Group
wwww,
Are you blaming the police for all the Leftists jumping to conclusions without all the facts?
Big Mike said...(4) The track that "Progressives" want to take us down leads inexorably to a two-tiered justice system, where it is "racist" to address criminal acts by black persons but okay to arrest whites, Hispanics, and Asians. Althouse invites us to discuss. Well, my contribution to the discussion is that IT. WON'T. WORK.
Slight correction: "Hispanics" fall under the People Of Color POC designation, so their treatment would have to be the same as that of black persons'. Asian people aren't POC, oddly, so they'd be stuck with the same treatment as white people.
FWIW, the police seem to be claiming the mom stole as well.
Unrelated, Racine, WI off duty cop just killed trying to stop a robbery. Suspect at large
Somehow I get the feeling this is one of those "there's still more to the story, don't rush to judgment too quickly" moments. Sure, if you just watch the video the cops come off as perhaps a bit too overzealous, but ultimately nobody was hurt. The wost that happened was a little girl may have been a bit traumatized. Is that really worth 10 million bucks and the ending of these officers careers? And after all, they actually did committ the crime.
So could their be other, shall we say, mitigating factors explaining these officer's behavoir? Could their be a history with this particular suspect? Could their be other incidents in the area involving other suspects resisting arrest in violent ways? Or do we want to believe that there's no other possible excuse for cops exercising maximum caution in this situation?
In all the talk about Oberlin, do you know how many times I've ever seen accurate reporting on the fact that one student shoplifted while two others were charged for misdemeanor assault on the bakery clerk?
Once.
It's all about shoplifting. And Oberlin trying to protect it's image and prevent police involvement and therefore public reporting.
Sometimes speaking truth to power means calling out the powerful local college for using the charge of racism to try to suppress a small business who didn't act the way they wanted the owners to act.
Why are so many Deplorables attracted to this blog? Every time I drop in here I read more and more comments that are racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist, and generally bigoted.
Ugh. What a horrid comments section. It’s really taken a nose dive in the last two years.
“As usual, we discover that Micheal Brown did not have his hands up, was rushing the officer he had just knocked unconscious, and was not "executed in the street". Imagine that.”
To be fair to the dearly departed, I do not believe that Officer Wilson had been knocked unconscious. Rather Brown had assaulted him in his Tahoe, and at one point tried to take Wilson’s gun away from him. And that assault, and attempt to take Wilson’s firearm, are what turned the encounter from a petty misdemeanor into a violent felony under Missouri law. Multiple violent felonies, since Wilson was a sworn LEO. We have both attempted murder and aggravated assault on a peace officer, at a minimum. Brown advancing on Wilson, with Wilson retreating, multiple times, is shown by the location of spent shell casings, and blood trail.
The interesting fact to me was that Wilson was so controlled in his reactions, after he had left his vehicle in order to keep the violent felon (see above) in sight, until backup arrived. Legally, under MO law, he probably could have shot Brown for attempting to escape, given Brown’s recent commission of violent felonies in the presence of the officer. He didn’t. Rather, he appeared to shoot two rounds (“double tap”) every time that Brown would start advancing on him. First two to the arm, second two to the torso, and the third pair, fatally, to Brown’s lowered head. All separated by movement on both their parts, Brown advancing, and Wilson retreating. Almost textbook, as contrasted to the multiple officer mag dumps that you see in places like NYC. Interesting because in self defense classes, you are taught to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.
the powerful local college for using the charge of racism to try to suppress a small business who didn't act the way they wanted
Yeah, this will not be lost in a black whore... hole (h/t NAACP). Apparently, the strong-arm tactic (e.g. allegations of diversity, rabid even), were not limited to this one business, and Oberlin has a very profitable reputation to uphold. Now, Oberlin has a #MeToo #SheKnew #SheProgressed problem.
Whether some action is right or wrong all depends on how it turns out. This could have turned out very tragic for the cops, for the suspects, or for bystanders, or it could have just turned out sad if they simply got away with the stolen goods. Ideally, we get the bad guys caught, and nobody hurt, and that's what happened. BUT, now we have a lawsuit, with big expenses, risks, and hassles for lots of people, so with that in mind, how does this outcome stack up against other possibilities? One things is for sure, as always, the lawyers win, and the taxpayers pay.
"In the Madison public schools the formal policy is to ignore inappropriate behavior by blacks because they commit a disproportionate number of the in-school offenses."
Seems like a Florida school system tried this a while back. Anyone recall how that turned out?
The only way this makes any sense is if the disproportionate punishment is based solely on skin color. Otherwise there are two inevitable results. First white kids get more severe punishment for the trivial (ha!). Or the KOC (kids of color) don't get punished for infractions. Of course kids learn. So the infractions rise and severity increases.
As night follows day. But those in gated communities who have kids (if they have kids at all) send them to private schools and feel oh so righteous about their fairness.
“Almost textbook, as contrasted to the multiple officer mag dumps that you see in places like NYC”
Let reiterate that, there have been multiple occasions where multiple NYPD officers, with their 12 lb triggers, have expended maybe 50 rounds (roughly 3 magazines) at a suspect, and gotten maybe a couple hits, and maybe hit a bystander too. Wilson, when shooting Brown, shot seven bullets (the first, in his Tahoe, to get the gun back from Brown, the other six in pairs), all striking Brown.
Like I wrote in the previous thread- defamation can be adjudicated. You might think "racist" is just a word that no one owns, but a jury might disagree with you. As such, you might want to be careful using it to describe individuals- very careful.
"They put a gun to my daughter's face."
No doubt this will be proven a big fat lie, but it will still be believed by those who claimed Ryan Lochte was lying about about having a gun to his forehead because it wasn't actually placed directly on and touching his forehead, something he never claimed, something that came from an accepted lie told by Matt Lauer. Lefties hated Lochte because he didn't get the full Warmbier treatment for pulling down a poster in a foreign land.
“A poll of the Oberlin jury found them in disagreement.12 to zero.”
To be fair, I think that there were only 8 on the jury. And, unfortunately for the university, most apparently did not live in the town of Oberlin, but in the surrounding county.
They won't want me on their jury if this case goes to trial- the simple fact is that the family was group of thieves and got caught. At this point, I don't give flying fuck that guns were drawn at their arrest- they weren't shot, were they? As far as I can tell from the details of the story, they weren't even physically assaulted in any unwarranted way. I really don't give shit what color they were, either.
As night follows day. But those in gated communities who have kids (if they have kids at all) send them to private schools and feel oh so righteous about their fairness.
No, some of us (no gates) feel safe. That's why the left, Bernie and Wilhelm, both want to get rid of charter schools.
In Tucson the leftist school district tried to sell a closed school to a developer so a charter could not buy it.
Inga, it's not our fault you're too virtuous and delicate for the truth.
Blogger Yancey Ward said...
“Like I wrote in the previous thread- defamation can be adjudicated. You might think "racist" is just a word that no one owns, but a jury might disagree with you. As such, you might want to be careful using it to describe individuals- very careful.”
Yancey has a good retort to Ann here. Who gets to define the term “racist”? The NYT? The SJWs on the Oberlin campus? Or in Madison? The obvious answer, after the Gibson case, is that a jury of their peers, in that case, drawn from the surrounding county, get to decide.
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist.
Is not confronting black shoplifters racist? Brazen Thieves Steal $8K Worth of Merchandise as Employees Watch
“They won't want me on their jury if this case goes to trial- the simple fact is that the family was group of thieves and got caught. At this point, I don't give flying fuck that guns were drawn at their arrest- they weren't shot, were they? As far as I can tell from the details of the story, they weren't even physically assaulted in any unwarranted way. I really don't give shit what color they were, either”
Me neither, in a civil case. But I expect that it will settle out, with some payout to the aggrieved parties, simply because jury trials are iffy. I was going to say that the odds would be with the plaintiffs, with enough lower income POCs voting to give them a nice payout. Treating it as a lottery prize. But this would be a county level trial, and the county (Maricopa) contains a more middle class demographic, who may be tempted to say “I don’t live in PHX, and this is part of the reason that I don’t, but someone has to maintain law and order there, and I am very glad that it isn’t my job to do it”.
Disgusting decrepit Becky Inga is unhappy about people introducing her to reality. This virtuous Nice White Lady lives as far away from POCs as she can get, but she’s WEALLY WEALLY upset about your racism GUISE.
Ugh. What a horrid comments section. It’s really taken a nose dive in the last two years.
Actually it got worse after the Mueller report because you were left with nothing but the mean girl snarls.
Even your cut-and-paste stuff was more interesting, although you clearly did not understand what you posted.
Is Andy McCarthy someone you still admire?
LOL!
Would you not also agree that it's a problem if people believe law enforcement is different and more harsh when the suspects are black? If it's not true, what would you do to help people gain confidence that they are not being discriminated against.)))
I don't have a comprehensive idea of how to convince most minorities that they are not being treated more harshly by the criminal justice system, other than continuing to work to see that doesn't happen. Because it does. I was able to counter that suspicion pretty effectively when I was a prosecutor but it took a lot of open mindedness, patience and focus on my part; I had to go way outside my innately shy comfort zone and just really pay concerted attention to my victims, lots of eye contact and from-the-gut honesty. To my amazement, it really works. I also tried to never see a defendant as just another number and worked with judges to achieve appropriate sentences---not just the most harsh sentence possible in every case. Treated the defendant's family with basic respect too, if they let me. I believe that we are here to do our best with the people and circumstances that come our way---that there are very few "great" acts; only small acts done with great love.
There are two dollar stores near where I live, one frequented by Blacks, the other not so much. Guess which one is dirtier, is usually in disarray, has more police calls, and will likely go out of business soon? Hint: It's the one in the food desert near the supermarket that had to close because it couldn't keep operating due to all the shoplifting, the one that had almost no shopping carts left at the time it closed.
BTW, if you're reduced shoplifting at the dollar store, do us and yourself a favor and steal a sturdy rope or clothesline, learn to tie a noose, and go climb a tree.
There was a big to do about how nasty Wal-Mart was on my little town's "everyone complain about how crummy our little town is" Facebook page because they called the cops on a young lady shoplifting baby formula. It was a pretty big deal until the cops posted a picture of the inside of her car and mugshots of the other people she was with. They were using the baby formula to cut crank. (Snortable meth)
"If the chase-and-detain approach is racist, even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism."
Statement is completely illogical, a tautology, without an ounce of any support, and requires tons of proof to make anyone other than a truly racist person believe it.
Let's try it another way:
"If the chase-and-detain approach is done by aliens, ... then it is not false to accuse the shopkeeper of being an alien."
"If the chase-and-detain approach is legal, ... then it is not false to accuse the shopkeeper of acting legally."
"If the chase-and-detain approach is a common practice to stop shoplifting, ... then it is not false to accuse the shopkeeper of ignoring the race of shoplifters whom he chases.
In today's society, it's not considered shoplifting but as proactive reparations.
The chase-and-detain approach is the ONLY lawful approach. You can't catch them BEFORE they leave the store, because while they're in the store they could still pay for the items, and therefore wouldn't be stealing, even if they intend to. Imagine the bitching we'd hear if they detain people before they left? There'd be no end to the bitching.
Inga's gonna bitch. That's what Ingas do.
New Report Exposes Milwaukee Public Schools’ Refusal to Sell Unused Property
Missing a tag: using kids as props. That is what you are doing, because otherwise you would notice how different pulling a gun on a child is from apprehending an adult thief.
Marginalized black man thwarted - thwarted! - by machete-wielding 11-year-old racist during home reparations visit flees hospital
"The suspect picked up a cell phone that was not his and was placing it into his pocket as he entered the living room of the home.
The juvenile, who is a star baseball player on several area teams, left the closet and was able to gain access to a machete. He entered the living room behind the intruder, swung the machete, and struck the man in the back of the head.
The man retaliated by kicking the boy in the stomach, causing him to fall against the couch. The boy got up, swung the machete again, missing this time. The intruder then kicked the child in the side of the head and turned to grab several items, including a television and a PlayStation.
At this point, the intruder realized he was bleeding significantly from the machete strike. He dropped the electronics, exited the residence, and all three suspects fled the home."
Confronting black shoplifters much more aggressively than white shoplifters is racist. Surely, you agree with that, don't you?
I missed how we know that this is so. Is there any documentation that white shoplifters in similar circumstances were treated more gently? It seems to me Althouse and others have made leaps of judgment before the facts are clear. Police have no way of knowing whether someone is armed, and when criminal suspects are in a vehicle it is particularly challenging as you cannot see their hands and whether they might be going for a weapon.
young lady shoplifting baby formula
Apparently shoplifting baby formula is common and a big deal, it's stolen for resale, not for the drug nonsense.
In today's society, it's not considered shoplifting but as proactive reparations.
It's undocumented shopping.
Inga dropped in ? Who knew ? At least Ritmo seems to be gone.
Althouse
Didn’t you say the other poster who claimed “racist” could never be “fighting words” prove you wrong? His point is about the subjective element, which is of course rather like the point you claim to be making. He cited a circumstance in which he could be right, which you denied was possible. It’s like you saying, no cat can live to be 25. I need only show one 25 year old cat to refute you. Isn’t that correct?
Before anyone presumes to comment on what cops should or should not do in any particular situation, how they're trained, or what their thought processes may be during an encounter, I'd really like to know if that commenter has attended any of the many "citizens academies" offered by local law enforcement. Or, at minimum, requested and gone on a "ride along" with local law enforcement (who are usually delighted when citizens express interest). Y'know, so as to learn about the "job" from those who are doing it.
Oh, looky here, both Madison city police dept. and the Dane County Sheriff Office offer their versions of that.
I would suggest doing the Dane County one before the other, as its programs seems more robust.
https://danesheriff.com/Events/Citizen-Academy
=> I presume that the "2018" there is a failure to update.... A phone call would confirm if there's a current program running.
https://www.cityofmadison.com/police/jointeam/academy/
When the black Minneapolis cop shot and killed an unarmed white woman who had called them about a possible assault, was that racist?
In my town shoplifters can walk out with anything less than $500. It's a bizarre policy imo. Quite a few years ago my young nephew was out with his father and brothers and the father left the store with two of his sons, but left one still in the store. Not a great dad, in fact a jerk. The son he had left in the store had an item he wanted his father to buy and ran out with the item in hand to get his father. A store clerk ran after my nephew and police were called and my nephew was accused of shop lifting. He was punished even though he claimed he didn't intentionally try to steal. I believed him because he was just stupid. My mother, his grandmother, was absolutely mortified by the episode -- maybe because her father had owned a business and they had to deal with shoplifters/low life people. I told my mother that it was a good thing my nephew had been caught and punished because otherwise he might have gotten the message it was OK to steal. He might have turned out to be a permanent low life.
I agree with the commenters who saw this episode as an example of child abuse. Sure, the stressed out cops shouldn't have lost their cool. But the fact that people are black doesn't make stealing OK.
Don't steal.
“Apparently shoplifting baby formula is common and a big deal, it's stolen for resale, not for the drug nonsense.”
I have heard both stories. But I think that you can tell quite a bit about the neighborhood a Walmart is located in by looking at what is locked up. The Walmart by our house near PHX? Yes. The Walmarts around here in NW MT and N ID? Mostly not.
Still amazed that with our current welfare system, anyone would have to pay for baby formula. Last I knew, it was covered by WIC, as well as EBT. still, there in SW PHX, there is a large Hispanic presence, which seems to mean a lot of illegals there (hot racist, because it is accurate). And not being neighboring CA, AZ may not be as sympathetic to illegals.
Tough luck for you though when you are arrested for committing a crime. You have no First Amendment defense based on your impulse control problem and the other person's mouthing off to you.
Bring back dueling.
It's amusing but predictable how Althouse likes to post these 'racism' items to provoke 'racist' responses, giving her an opportunity to tut-tut her commenters.
I do not believe that Officer Wilson had been knocked unconscious.
You're right. My bad. I think he testified to being "dazed" by the assault. But he was not rendered unconscious, otherwise he would be dead now. Police that get knocked out are usually murdered with their own firearm.
Inga: Why are so many Deplorables attracted to this blog? Every time I drop in here I -
Inga keeps poking her finger in down there, raising it up to her nose and complaining about the smell.
And yet she persists.
I think it's a self-abuse fetish. We should be charging her for the humiliation.
Does that make us - oh nevermind.
giving her an opportunity to tut-tut her commenters.
It's more like an opportunity to write PC-stupider-than-usual stuff, but personally, I think she's just "trolling for dollars" because things like that "Racist" is just a word nonsense are too retarded to be serious.
Racism etc. is in the mind of the diversitist. Don't conflate color and character. Don't conflate sex, gender, and character. Don't judge, sacrifice, and recycle human life by age. Don't indulge color judgments, labels, and judges.
There was a guy, unarmed, with his hands by his side, exiting a convenience shop in Salt Lake City, who was executed by an officer, then memorialized by the DA through a slow progression of disinformation, which was used to exonerate the officer's choice. There was no redistributive change.
Redistributive change is a crime. The question is if the officer in this case overreacted based on the circumstances and trail of evidence.
I haven't paid much attention to the story beyond what's in the headlines. I've been viewing it through the lens of a father whose daughter once tried to walk out of the store with some pencils hidden in her pocket, and I thought the policeman was obviously overreacting. Now that it comes out that the father was shoplifting too, I have to wonder what else is missing from the story.
If implementing basic crime fighting measures is racist and shouldn't be used; then call me a racists, because I won't live in their neighborhoods. I've seen what has happened to Detroit, and its not looking good for Chicago and Baltimore.
I say you’re a murderer, but don’t worry, I think that murder means you forgot to water your flowers.
I say you’re a rapist, but don’t worry, a rapist is just somebody who wrote a bad check once by accident.
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