She told me she wasn’t yet over the release of her last album, “Rebel Heart,” in 2015, which sold less than her others. The songs had leaked online several months early, far from perfection. “There are no words to describe how devastated I was,” she said. “It took me a while to recover, and put such a bad taste in my mouth I wasn’t really interested in making music.” She added, “I felt raped.”
It's a long article. Some nice photos too. I just want to pick out this bit about Harvey Weinstein:
“Harvey crossed lines and boundaries and was incredibly sexually flirtatious and forward with me when we were working together; he was married at the time, and I certainly wasn’t interested,” she said. She added: “I was aware that he did the same with a lot of other women that I knew in the business. And we were all, ‘Harvey gets to do that because he’s got so much power and he’s so successful and his movies do so well and everybody wants to work with him, so you have to put up with it.’ So that was it. So when it happened, I was really like, ‘Finally.’ I wasn’t cheering from the rafters because I’m never going to cheer for someone’s demise. I don’t think that’s good karma anyway. But it was good that somebody who had been abusing his power for so many years was called out and held accountable.”
And this about Donald Trump, who has claimed "She called and wanted to go out with him, that I can tell you." (Don't let the "him" confuse you. That was back when Trump would call up reporters and identify himself as "John Miller," Trump's publicist.)
What she remembered was talking to him on the phone in Florida. “I did a Versace campaign with Steven Meisel at his house in Palm Beach,” she said. He kept calling to talk to her. “He kept going: ‘Hey, is everything O.K.? Finding yourself comfortable? Are the beds comfortable? Is everything good? Are you happy?’ ”
She said that Trump had a weak character but that this wasn’t a surprise for an alpha male. “They’re overcompensating for how insecure they feel — a man who is secure with himself, a human who is secure with themselves, doesn’t have to go around bullying people all the time.” What about alpha women, I asked? “It’s the same,” she said. “It’s good to be strong, but again, it’s always about, where’s that strength coming from? What are your intentions? What is the context that you’re using your strength in? Are you abusing your power? Women can also abuse their power. And if that’s also backed up by a lack of intelligence, emotional or intellectual, a lack of life experience, a lack of compassion, then it’s really a bad mixture.”
ADDED: Instagramming in response to Grigoriadis's chiding about the metaphorical use of "rape," Madonna says: "It makes me feel raped. And yes I'm allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19." She has other complaints as well:
Madonna's career has sadly been in a long steady decline for at least the past two decades. Her last great album was 2001's Music. Confessions on a Dance Floor was a welcome reprieve but not that substantial, and every album she has released since has sold half as much as the previous album. The only area of pop music where Madonna continues to reign supreme is in live performance, where Madonna continues to hold numerous concert records, mostly related to gross sales, mostly related to her outlandishly high ticket prices (which fans are still willing to pay).
Why can't Madonna age gracefully? Why is she always running for Ms. Perpetually? It seems futile, and it's insulting to younger women. She should give up the beauty contest and run for political office.
Signs of a metaphor 1. feeling of false identity 2. resistance to it, as interpretative machinery turns on, giving 3. richness of the word, a pregnancy.
There will be infinite ways to feel raped if being a victim is a status sought.
I don't think there are many creatures in this world more pampered and comforted than Madonna. Her life exists over the top of a world full of cruelty and want she will never feel or come within a mile of.
She should give up the beauty contest and run for political office.
You're not the first person to entertain that idea, actually. I give you Roger Ebert's 1991 review of Madonna's Truth or Dare documentary:
"Madonna has kept her act fresh by adopting a long series of public star personas, yet, backstage, people don't relate to her as a star, but as the boss. Her charisma comes not through glitter but through power, and there is never any doubt about exactly who is in charge.
We get the feeling that if show biz ever loses its appeal for her, she could be successful in business or even politics: She's a hard-headed organizer, a taskmaster, disciplined and clear-headed."
I do think that Madonna's armchair psychologizing is probably essentially correct. I would guess that Trump was operating from some very profound personal insecurity. But then again, so is most of the population. Trump's just happens to be coupled with an insanely outsized personality. It's also interesting how among Trump's alpha-male machismo he is able to embody so many feminine traits. He is absurdly vain, has an OCD-like squeamishness to germs, and loves gossip and tabloids. If Andrew Sullivan weren't so hysterically averse to Trump, he could write the think piece on how Trump was the first gay president.
I'm always glad to see a Weinstein Company title on DVD openings. A sign of a quality flick.
Agreed. Like Caravaggio and Sinatra, Harvey Weinstein's exquisitely refined aesthetics and astoundingly boorish coarseness were improbably, miraculously joined in a single being.
Of course the Media cocksuckers let you hear the "John Miller" tape. Or at least have run it against trial-grade voice recognition software. They don't--and they haven't? How do you like that? Surprising.
As Siouxsie says. 'Madonna got a lot of mileage out of a little talent.'
Siouxsie, who I love, is giving the standard punk critique of Madonna. It's not very original, as Madonna herself has made it. She has conceded that she is not especially talented at singing or dancing but that those are simply means to another end. Madonna, a lot like Trump, is primarily interested in getting people talking about and thinking about Madonna.
And let's not forget, Siouxise herself got her start groupieing the Sex Pistols as part of the Bromley Contingent.
I was one of her original fans. The first time I ever heard one of her songs was at a Christmas party when I was in the 10th grade. It didn't get much radio airplay- I think I heard on the radio maybe twice, but I bought the 45 when I finally found it a few months later. The first album Madonna wasn't released until about 1/2 year later, and I bought it the first month. I haven't found anything she has done in the last decade interesting, which is sad.
I'm a man in his 60s. My observation is that there are lot of women (right away let me recognize this does not describe all women) who were pretty enough in their teens and 20s that they never had to try to be interactive with the opposite sex. Men would come on to them, just because of their looks. (And I don't mean "Marilyn Monroe glamour" for whom beauty was a be-all-and-end-all with make-up and cleavage and etc. -- just lots of attractive young women.) But these women as they get into their 60s lose their looks in ways that cannot be ignored. Things sag. Wrinkles appear. Hair turns gray. Even women who never thought that their self-worth depended on their looks find that they can't ignore the fact that they look older. And if they are single, then the loss of looks changes their social interactions. They want to attract the attention of men, and they have never learned any social skills to be attractive to men, because in their teens and 20s men were attracted to them only because of their (now deteriorating) looks. So this change in social interactions magnifies the perceived loss in looks. And statements like "the older Madonna" or "the 60 year old singer" sting in a way that is hard for the rest of us to understand. Mick Jagger has aged too and he can't possibly be unaware. But he never counted (consciously or unconsciously) on his looks to be attractive. So age has not withered his "coolness" and he is comfortable in his own sagging skin.
This is the chick whose kids don't want to live with..right?
A teenage son who preferred to stay with his father. An exceptionally common occurrence. Madonna got exceptionally bad legal advice in attempting to fight custody in court and thus guaranteeing a public dispute. Barring extenuating circumstances, family courts invariably allow older children (he was 15/16 at the time) to choose their custodial parent.
The oddest thing about 21 century Show biz is no becomes a "Has-been". They just hang around forever and just fade away at 80. We'll be hearing about Madonna in 2034.
She always seemed like a smart lady who got the most from her talent. I never "got her" although she was good in "Dick Tracy". The Comment about Trump seemed weird. His business was running hotels, resorts and real estate. Of course, he wanted to make sure a high profile celebrity was happy.
Mick Jagger has aged too and he can't possibly be unaware. But he never counted (consciously or unconsciously) on his looks to be attractive. So age has not withered his "coolness" and he is comfortable in his own sagging skin.
Plus the general fact that men tend to be attracted to youth and beauty and women to power and status. That is why a bloated mess like Trump can get a knockout like Melania. Compared that to the amount of men who were turned on by Rosie O'Donnell because of her nine-figure net worth and her power position in the entertainment industry.
I suppose being a beautiful girl and a star athlete are similar. Once you lose your physical talents due to old age - you adjust or you don't. Everyone goes through it, but most of aren't that good looking (me excepted) or weren't very athletic, so losing it wasn't that bad.
It gets down to character. Something people never talk about. I always liked Doris Day and Deanna Durbin, because they got to certain age, and then just left. Forever. Others, like Bob Hope, hang on too long. Everyone needs to get off the stage.
"So age has not withered his "coolness" and he is comfortable in his own sagging skin."
that's hard for me to understand. Jagger always looked like an ugly, skinny monkey. His appeal to women was a mystery. But then "what do women want?" is a riddle for the ages.
"hey were are all whores but what the hell we wanted to famous and rich so we let Harvey have at us" . What a deep and intellectual piece on madonna. Pure rag magazine material.
I have to admit I was a huge Madonna fan growing up in the 90s. I was too young to be an original fan, but my mother was, and both of my sisters were avid MTV watchers. I first remember putting a face to the name in the summer of 1990, when I was eight and watching Dick Tracy in the theater with my father. A few months later, in September 1990, I was watching the MTV Video Music Awards with my sisters and was absolutely enthralled when Madonna pantomimed Vogue while in Elizabethan drag. A few months after that, in March 1991, I was watching the Oscars with my mother, and Madonna performed Sooner or Later, also from the Dick Tracy soundtrack. I was hooked.
Incidentally, in Steve Pond's book The Big Show: High Times and Dirty Dealings Backstage at the Academy Awards, he recounts how literally seconds before that performance, a stage hand missed a cue and screwed up a mic stand placement. Madonna apparently launched into an extremely explicit tirade and manhandled the stagehand right up until the moment she was to begin. Whatever you think of her talent (or lack thereof) that is a true diva professional.
replying to J Farmer at 6:58, and then to rocean at 7:00.
J Farmer exactly right. Except my point was to expand the observation beyond the rich and famous. So a man who is good at playing bridge might attract female attention in his 20s because he's good at bridge. And then in his 60s he is still good at bridge, so he doesn't think "How is any woman ever going to find me attractive?" Whereas a woman who is good at playing bridge might attract male attention in her 20s not because of her bridge playing but because she is pretty, and all she has to do is sit quietly and be pretty and men will introduce themselves, and they might later learn that she is good at bridge, but the initial attraction was her prettiness. Then in her 60s she thinks, "How is any man ever going to find me attractive?"
rocean. I agree that being a beautiful girl and a star athlete are similar. But as a male star athlete ages and loses his athletic abilities, he can fall back on being rich and famous (see J Farmer). A beautiful girl has no similar "social capital" (unless she has used her youthful years to make herself attractive in other ways (I guess money always works, but I think there is an asymmetry between men and women in that regard).
Here you can listen to Ann and Bob Write discuss "Madonna turning 50" a decade ago (08/21/2008). Despite only a brief discussion near the end of a 60+ minute video, it is titled "Like a Prayer."
It's the fundamental answer to the "why women aren't funny" question that always gets drowned out in feminist outrage. Women are not funny, because they do not have to be funny. Men, on the other hand, with the exception of the small percentage of the truly good looking, have to make themselves interesting to women, or they are screwed. Or, more precisely, not screwed. Norah Vincent came to this realization during the research for her gimmicky book Self-Made Man. Women cannot begin to imagine the amount of humiliation and rejection men put themselves through in the pursuit of women.
Madonna used “raped” correctly. It is a violent stealing of another’s stuff, such as her royalties. It happens to the weak whether they be man, woman or child. Rape is a traditional conquest ceremony of the strong. Ask Ginghis Khan’s losers or Nanking, China’s men women and children invaded by Japs.
I’m pretty much to the place where the only female I listen to about her travails is my daughter. Usually my advice is to Man Up. I guess I’m lucky I was the one to raise her.....
I believe Madonna is overrating herself and/or totally failing to understand Trump's call. Trump has always called people back directly to ask or argue or harangue.
I knew a woman who worked as a reporter in Trenton, NJ (state capital), who wrote an uncomplimentary article about some Trump project. One day she realized with a shock, as she picked up her ringing phone, that The Donald himself was on the other end, complaining about her article and insisting on explaining to her in detail why she was wrong.
She was NOT a Trump fan in any way, but was somewhat surprised that he called her himself and seemed to want to explain it all to her.
And it wasn't because he wanted a date with her or felt insecure. He just makes a lot of his own phone calls.
Why does a man's willingness to explore his strengths, to go for it, to have some fun and see what's possible always have to be some kind of hidden failing, a weakness, a bad thing. This is how great things happen for a person, how progress is made, and it's also exactly how Madonna got to where she has been, yet when Trump does it far better and with more vigor and success it's got to be attacked.
Trump is just a man, a certain kind of necessary man, not a broken one, but a rare and special one, and lately I see him also as a very lucky man, as I think he is starting to see himself. I certainly did not always think this of him, but I'm led by evidence. Madonna's disdain, which is now all too common, is just jealousy, which is especially hard to swallow for people who imagine themselves as superior to most people. And there are lots of those - virtually everyone who is rich or famous.
ADDED: Instagramming in response to Grigoriadis's chiding about the metaphorical use of "rape," Madonna says: "It makes me feel raped. And yes I'm allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19." She has other complaints as well:
I grew up 20 miles from where she grew up. We're close enough to being the same age.
Same place in time, same culture.
She was the chick that showed up at Friday night parties all sassy, begging for attention. We called them "titless" because the make-up, hair, dress, and attitude were supposed to distract you from noticing they were flat chested. In high school, tits ruled.
If Madonna had the ciccones, she would call Trump and apologize and ask his advice on getting into politics. She should also apologize to her brother. Sean Penn took one for the team.
She spent most of her career as a sexual vulgarian. That she would find fault with Trump, who is a piker next to her in that arena, makes her look daft.
About the only area where I admire her is her adoption of children from really poor African nations.
The patriarchy was invented by a creature that probably resembled a shrew. Quite a long time ago, probably on the order of a hundred million years, if not more. I know these people generally take a dim view of biology, but it doesn’t go away, regardless of ones feelings. Our essential nature is hard-coded, in spite of the contortions we have to implement in software to permit survival in the changed environments we create for ourselves. It would be nice if we had an ideology that respected the animal.
It must be very hard for someone like Madonna who has been to such heights based in sex appeal and youthful timing to lose both - to lose everything your fame and success is tied to, and then to see others succeed though more substantial, lasting, and cerebral talents.
She's got some fans who will follow her to the grave. Sinatra lost it at the end , but people showed up for his shows and paid top dollar for the privilege. I don't think Mick will be able to move like Jagger for much longer, but he will still want to strut and people will still pay money to see him do wheelies with his walker.....Madonna has her talents as a singer and performer. I presume they have diminished with age, but her fans, who are themselves diminished with age, will continue to show up. She won't die broke or forgotten.....Whatever her musical talents, she was always flaky when it came to sex, religion, and politics, but there was a time when people paid more attention to the gibberish.
She's worth several hundred million dollars. Life has many compensations if you're worth a few hundred million dollars. She'll find some way to carry on with diminished fame and sex appeal.
Lady Madonna, children at your feet Wonder how you manage to make ends meet Who finds the money when you pay the rent? Did you think that money was heaven sent?
Friday night arrives without a suitcase Sunday morning creeping like a nun Monday's child has learned to tie his bootlace See how they run
I remember watching Madonna's performance documentary Truth or Dare (1992?) and getting the impression that she was not even remotely a decent person. Ruthlessly controlling and selfish. You wouldn't want to be in a lifeboat with that woman. Her music was/is quite good.
“To say that I was disappointed in the article would be an understatement,” Madonna wrote. “It seems. You can’t fix society and its endless need to diminish, disparage or degrade that which they know is good. Especially strong independent women.”
Oh geez. I feel bad for the women here who have to endure this telegraphing of weakness.
Dear Strong Independent Madonna, You won't find strong independent men whining about how society is diminishing disparaging and degrading them. Either "hear me roar" or be a perennially indignant victim. You can't be both.
The more American women moan about how easily oppressed they are, the more they telegraph that maybe they aren't equal to men afterall.
You are making it worse, you make women look weak.
J. Farmer said... It's also interesting how among Trump's alpha-male machismo he is able to embody so many feminine traits. He is absurdly vain, has an OCD-like squeamishness to germs, and loves gossip and tabloids. If Andrew Sullivan weren't so hysterically averse to Trump, he could write the think piece on how Trump was the first gay president. 6/6/19, 6:35 PM
I’m glad I’m not the only one to make this observation. Pretty sure that the Donald is at the very least bisexual.
J. Farmer said... Madonna's career has sadly been in a long steady decline for at least the past two decades. Her last great album was 2001's Music. Confessions on a Dance Floor was a welcome reprieve but not that substantial, and every album she has released since has sold half as much as the previous album. The only area of pop music where Madonna continues to reign supreme is in live performance, where Madonna continues to hold numerous concert records, mostly related to gross sales, mostly related to her outlandishly high ticket prices (which fans are still willing to pay). 6/6/19, 6:04 PM
You’re absolutely right in your assessment. “Music” is my cut off point as well. Her 90’s output was a particularly high watermark for me, so she can rest on her laurels.
bagoh20:Madonna, Michael Jackson and I are all the same age.
Madonna and Michael Jackson are two of the three artists to have songs on the Billboard Top 40 in the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. Can you guess who the third is? Hint - it's not bagoh20. :)
FWIW, Jackson actually hit the Top 40 in the 70s as a solo artist as well, and in the 60s as part of the Jackson 5.
I’m glad I’m not the only one to make this observation. Pretty sure that the Donald is at the very least bisexual.
Impossible. Unless he murdered all his male partners, somebody would have talked. We don't even hear controversion of the usual stance that he never drinks or drugs. I myself am repelled by filth and (you would presumably have to take my word for this) I'm as het as they come. Of course, I'm not vain or into gossip. But it's presumably possible to have feminine elements, like being thenthitive, as part of one's nature without being teh ghey.
A pack of liars made up stories about Bret Kavanaugh and rape rooms and rape parties. Lying for the greater good is totally cool and worthy of a cat hat.
Clapton and Cher both last hit the Top 40 in '98 ("My Father's Eyes" and "Believe", respectively).
I'll give the answer, since this post is going to drop off the front page soon:
"Weird Al" Yankovic.
The interesting thing is that Yankovic's only had four Top 40 hits in his entire career, he's just spread 'em out across the decades - "Eat It" in '84, "Smells Like Nirvana" in '92, "White & Nerdy" in '06, and "Word Crimes" in '14.
1960's: I Got You Babe (As part of Sonny & Cher) 1965 1970's: (4) including Half Breed 1973 1980's: (2) including If I Could Turn Back Time 1989 (I thought this was much newer than that) 1990's: (3) including Believe 1999 2000's: (2) Including Love Song 2002 2010's: You Haven't Seen the Last of Me 2011
Looking back, you specified Billboard Top 40, and Cher's #1 songs might not have been in that particular list, even though they were number 1's on one of Billboard's charts.
What I love about Althouse comments: read the exchange beween SeanF and Gahrie. They are both providing evidence and specifically defining the issue on which they are making claims. They are (to an extent) disagreeing with each other but without ever calling names or being nasty. Just moving the question forward with documented information. Compare this to the WaPo comments sections, where this almost never happens.
Gahrie:Looking back, you specified Billboard Top 40, and Cher's #1 songs might not have been in that particular list, even though they were number 1's on one of Billboard's charts.
Yeah, when I heard that piece of trivia, it specified Billboard Top 40. According to Wikipedia, since the turn of the century, Cher's had six singles hit top 40 on the US Adult Contemporary charts, and nine singles hit top 40 on the US Dance charts, but only one song ("Song for the Lonely", 2002) that made the "regular" Top 100, maxing out at 85.
"Hit the Top 40" is one of those things that doesn't really tell you anything about an artist's popularity - but as a long time "Weird Al" fan, I find it endlessly amusing.
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81 comments:
I'm always glad to see a Weinstein Company title on DVD openings. A sign of a quality flick.
Madonna's career has sadly been in a long steady decline for at least the past two decades. Her last great album was 2001's Music. Confessions on a Dance Floor was a welcome reprieve but not that substantial, and every album she has released since has sold half as much as the previous album. The only area of pop music where Madonna continues to reign supreme is in live performance, where Madonna continues to hold numerous concert records, mostly related to gross sales, mostly related to her outlandishly high ticket prices (which fans are still willing to pay).
I.A.Richards says all language is metaphorical.
Why can't Madonna age gracefully? Why is she always running for Ms. Perpetually? It seems futile, and it's insulting to younger women. She should give up the beauty contest and run for political office.
If rape is a metaphor, it carries a pregnancy.
Signs of a metaphor
1. feeling of false identity
2. resistance to it, as interpretative machinery turns on, giving
3. richness of the word, a pregnancy.
Feminism is hostile to this.
back when Trump would call up reporters and identify himself as "John Miller," Trump's publicist
Of all Trump's wackjob behavior this is my favorite.
Interesting how many ways people can feel raped.
There will be infinite ways to feel raped if being a victim is a status sought.
I don't think there are many creatures in this world more pampered and comforted than Madonna. Her life exists over the top of a world full of cruelty and want she will never feel or come within a mile of.
@chickelit:
She should give up the beauty contest and run for political office.
You're not the first person to entertain that idea, actually. I give you Roger Ebert's 1991 review of Madonna's Truth or Dare documentary:
"Madonna has kept her act fresh by adopting a long series of public star personas, yet, backstage, people don't relate to her as a star, but as the boss. Her charisma comes not through glitter but through power, and there is never any doubt about exactly who is in charge.
We get the feeling that if show biz ever loses its appeal for her, she could be successful in business or even politics: She's a hard-headed organizer, a taskmaster, disciplined and clear-headed."
Synonym from violated.
“He kept going: ‘Hey, is everything O.K.? Finding yourself comfortable? Are the beds comfortable? Is everything good? Are you happy?’ ”
Wow - what a bully!
Asking her if she is happy. I mean come on.
As Siouxsie says. 'Madonna got a lot of mileage out of a little talent.'
I do think that Madonna's armchair psychologizing is probably essentially correct. I would guess that Trump was operating from some very profound personal insecurity. But then again, so is most of the population. Trump's just happens to be coupled with an insanely outsized personality. It's also interesting how among Trump's alpha-male machismo he is able to embody so many feminine traits. He is absurdly vain, has an OCD-like squeamishness to germs, and loves gossip and tabloids. If Andrew Sullivan weren't so hysterically averse to Trump, he could write the think piece on how Trump was the first gay president.
I'm always glad to see a Weinstein Company title on DVD openings. A sign of a quality flick.
Agreed. Like Caravaggio and Sinatra, Harvey Weinstein's exquisitely refined aesthetics and astoundingly boorish coarseness were improbably, miraculously joined in a single being.
Of course the Media cocksuckers let you hear the "John Miller" tape. Or at least have run it against trial-grade voice recognition software. They don't--and they haven't? How do you like that? Surprising.
If Andrew Sullivan weren't so hysterically averse to Trump, he could write the think piece on how Trump was the first gay president.
ha.
She never delivered on her promise to blow Hildebeast's voters.
She'd rather blow up the Whitehouse.
@BleachBit-and-Hammers:
As Siouxsie says. 'Madonna got a lot of mileage out of a little talent.'
Siouxsie, who I love, is giving the standard punk critique of Madonna. It's not very original, as Madonna herself has made it. She has conceded that she is not especially talented at singing or dancing but that those are simply means to another end. Madonna, a lot like Trump, is primarily interested in getting people talking about and thinking about Madonna.
And let's not forget, Siouxise herself got her start groupieing the Sex Pistols as part of the Bromley Contingent.
I was one of her original fans. The first time I ever heard one of her songs was at a Christmas party when I was in the 10th grade. It didn't get much radio airplay- I think I heard on the radio maybe twice, but I bought the 45 when I finally found it a few months later. The first album Madonna wasn't released until about 1/2 year later, and I bought it the first month. I haven't found anything she has done in the last decade interesting, which is sad.
This is the chick whose kids don't want to live with..right?
I'm a man in his 60s. My observation is that there are lot of women (right away let me recognize this does not describe all women) who were pretty enough in their teens and 20s that they never had to try to be interactive with the opposite sex. Men would come on to them, just because of their looks. (And I don't mean "Marilyn Monroe glamour" for whom beauty was a be-all-and-end-all with make-up and cleavage and etc. -- just lots of attractive young women.) But these women as they get into their 60s lose their looks in ways that cannot be ignored. Things sag. Wrinkles appear. Hair turns gray. Even women who never thought that their self-worth depended on their looks find that they can't ignore the fact that they look older. And if they are single, then the loss of looks changes their social interactions. They want to attract the attention of men, and they have never learned any social skills to be attractive to men, because in their teens and 20s men were attracted to them only because of their (now deteriorating) looks. So this change in social interactions magnifies the perceived loss in looks. And statements like "the older Madonna" or "the 60 year old singer" sting in a way that is hard for the rest of us to understand. Mick Jagger has aged too and he can't possibly be unaware. But he never counted (consciously or unconsciously) on his looks to be attractive. So age has not withered his "coolness" and he is comfortable in his own sagging skin.
Metaphorical rape is always followed the pregnant pause.
@Gahrie:
This is the chick whose kids don't want to live with..right?
A teenage son who preferred to stay with his father. An exceptionally common occurrence. Madonna got exceptionally bad legal advice in attempting to fight custody in court and thus guaranteeing a public dispute. Barring extenuating circumstances, family courts invariably allow older children (he was 15/16 at the time) to choose their custodial parent.
The oddest thing about 21 century Show biz is no becomes a "Has-been". They just hang around forever and just fade away at 80. We'll be hearing about Madonna in 2034.
She always seemed like a smart lady who got the most from her talent. I never "got her" although she was good in "Dick Tracy". The Comment about Trump seemed weird. His business was running hotels, resorts and real estate. Of course, he wanted to make sure a high profile celebrity was happy.
@h:
Mick Jagger has aged too and he can't possibly be unaware. But he never counted (consciously or unconsciously) on his looks to be attractive. So age has not withered his "coolness" and he is comfortable in his own sagging skin.
Plus the general fact that men tend to be attracted to youth and beauty and women to power and status. That is why a bloated mess like Trump can get a knockout like Melania. Compared that to the amount of men who were turned on by Rosie O'Donnell because of her nine-figure net worth and her power position in the entertainment industry.
@rcocean:
Of course, he wanted to make sure a high profile celebrity was happy.
Madonna desperately wants to insert herself into the zeitgeist. If these are the crumbs she has to reach for, so be it.
I suppose being a beautiful girl and a star athlete are similar. Once you lose your physical talents due to old age - you adjust or you don't. Everyone goes through it, but most of aren't that good looking (me excepted) or weren't very athletic, so losing it wasn't that bad.
It gets down to character. Something people never talk about. I always liked Doris Day and Deanna Durbin, because they got to certain age, and then just left. Forever. Others, like Bob Hope, hang on too long. Everyone needs to get off the stage.
"So age has not withered his "coolness" and he is comfortable in his own sagging skin."
that's hard for me to understand. Jagger always looked like an ugly, skinny monkey. His appeal to women was a mystery. But then "what do women want?" is a riddle for the ages.
"hey were are all whores but what the hell we wanted to famous and rich so we let Harvey have at us" . What a deep and intellectual piece on madonna. Pure rag magazine material.
I have to admit I was a huge Madonna fan growing up in the 90s. I was too young to be an original fan, but my mother was, and both of my sisters were avid MTV watchers. I first remember putting a face to the name in the summer of 1990, when I was eight and watching Dick Tracy in the theater with my father. A few months later, in September 1990, I was watching the MTV Video Music Awards with my sisters and was absolutely enthralled when Madonna pantomimed Vogue while in Elizabethan drag. A few months after that, in March 1991, I was watching the Oscars with my mother, and Madonna performed Sooner or Later, also from the Dick Tracy soundtrack. I was hooked.
Incidentally, in Steve Pond's book The Big Show: High Times and Dirty Dealings Backstage at the Academy Awards, he recounts how literally seconds before that performance, a stage hand missed a cue and screwed up a mic stand placement. Madonna apparently launched into an extremely explicit tirade and manhandled the stagehand right up until the moment she was to begin. Whatever you think of her talent (or lack thereof) that is a true diva professional.
replying to J Farmer at 6:58, and then to rocean at 7:00.
J Farmer exactly right. Except my point was to expand the observation beyond the rich and famous. So a man who is good at playing bridge might attract female attention in his 20s because he's good at bridge. And then in his 60s he is still good at bridge, so he doesn't think "How is any woman ever going to find me attractive?" Whereas a woman who is good at playing bridge might attract male attention in her 20s not because of her bridge playing but because she is pretty, and all she has to do is sit quietly and be pretty and men will introduce themselves, and they might later learn that she is good at bridge, but the initial attraction was her prettiness. Then in her 60s she thinks, "How is any man ever going to find me attractive?"
rocean. I agree that being a beautiful girl and a star athlete are similar. But as a male star athlete ages and loses his athletic abilities, he can fall back on being rich and famous (see J Farmer). A beautiful girl has no similar "social capital" (unless she has used her youthful years to make herself attractive in other ways (I guess money always works, but I think there is an asymmetry between men and women in that regard).
Throwback Thursday...
Here you can listen to Ann and Bob Write discuss "Madonna turning 50" a decade ago (08/21/2008). Despite only a brief discussion near the end of a 60+ minute video, it is titled "Like a Prayer."
@H:
It's the fundamental answer to the "why women aren't funny" question that always gets drowned out in feminist outrage. Women are not funny, because they do not have to be funny. Men, on the other hand, with the exception of the small percentage of the truly good looking, have to make themselves interesting to women, or they are screwed. Or, more precisely, not screwed. Norah Vincent came to this realization during the research for her gimmicky book Self-Made Man. Women cannot begin to imagine the amount of humiliation and rejection men put themselves through in the pursuit of women.
Madonna used “raped” correctly. It is a violent stealing of another’s stuff, such as her royalties. It happens to the weak whether they be man, woman or child. Rape is a traditional conquest ceremony of the strong. Ask Ginghis Khan’s losers or Nanking, China’s men women and children invaded by Japs.
I’m pretty much to the place where the only female I listen to about her travails is my daughter. Usually my advice is to Man Up. I guess I’m lucky I was the one to raise her.....
she was create-raped, and that nascent album wasnt really music
...she should have aborted that cacophonous jumble of sound
(eaglebeak)
I believe Madonna is overrating herself and/or totally failing to understand Trump's call. Trump has always called people back directly to ask or argue or harangue.
I knew a woman who worked as a reporter in Trenton, NJ (state capital), who wrote an uncomplimentary article about some Trump project. One day she realized with a shock, as she picked up her ringing phone, that The Donald himself was on the other end, complaining about her article and insisting on explaining to her in detail why she was wrong.
She was NOT a Trump fan in any way, but was somewhat surprised that he called her himself and seemed to want to explain it all to her.
And it wasn't because he wanted a date with her or felt insecure. He just makes a lot of his own phone calls.
Why does a man's willingness to explore his strengths, to go for it, to have some fun and see what's possible always have to be some kind of hidden failing, a weakness, a bad thing. This is how great things happen for a person, how progress is made, and it's also exactly how Madonna got to where she has been, yet when Trump does it far better and with more vigor and success it's got to be attacked.
Trump is just a man, a certain kind of necessary man, not a broken one, but a rare and special one, and lately I see him also as a very lucky man, as I think he is starting to see himself. I certainly did not always think this of him, but I'm led by evidence. Madonna's disdain, which is now all too common, is just jealousy, which is especially hard to swallow for people who imagine themselves as superior to most people. And there are lots of those - virtually everyone who is rich or famous.
ADDED: Instagramming in response to Grigoriadis's chiding about the metaphorical use of "rape," Madonna says: "It makes me feel raped. And yes I'm allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19." She has other complaints as well:
Ughs all around
I grew up 20 miles from where she grew up. We're close enough to being the same age.
Same place in time, same culture.
She was the chick that showed up at Friday night parties all sassy, begging for attention. We called them "titless" because the make-up, hair, dress, and attitude were supposed to distract you from noticing they were flat chested. In high school, tits ruled.
If Madonna had the ciccones, she would call Trump and apologize and ask his advice on getting into politics. She should also apologize to her brother. Sean Penn took one for the team.
Madonna wrote: And I say—-DEATH TO THE PATRIARCHY woven deep into the fabric of Society.
And being born a male and thus part of the "patriarchy". I wish her an early (and very ugly) death as well. FOAD
Yes- & Siouxsie hated being called punk.
Madonna is an asshole. Mostly.
She spent most of her career as a sexual vulgarian. That she would find fault with Trump, who is a piker next to her in that arena, makes her look daft.
About the only area where I admire her is her adoption of children from really poor African nations.
The patriarchy was invented by a creature that probably resembled a shrew.
Quite a long time ago, probably on the order of a hundred million years, if not more.
I know these people generally take a dim view of biology, but it doesn’t go away, regardless of ones feelings.
Our essential nature is hard-coded, in spite of the contortions we have to implement in software to permit survival in the changed environments we create for ourselves.
It would be nice if we had an ideology that respected the animal.
maybe the Patriarchy tamed that shrew
Joan Jett and Susanna Hoffs were my favorite uh subjects of study during my early teens. Never Madonna. Still not. Oh well.
It must be very hard for someone like Madonna who has been to such heights based in sex appeal and youthful timing to lose both - to lose everything your fame and success is tied to, and then to see others succeed though more substantial, lasting, and cerebral talents.
I didn’t say that shrew was a boy or girl.
Maybe it was the girl shrew that came up with it.
Madonna, Michael Jackson and I are all the same age. 1958 was a special year - I hear that there were two suns and the moon was tie dyed.
She's got some fans who will follow her to the grave. Sinatra lost it at the end , but people showed up for his shows and paid top dollar for the privilege. I don't think Mick will be able to move like Jagger for much longer, but he will still want to strut and people will still pay money to see him do wheelies with his walker.....Madonna has her talents as a singer and performer. I presume they have diminished with age, but her fans, who are themselves diminished with age, will continue to show up. She won't die broke or forgotten.....Whatever her musical talents, she was always flaky when it came to sex, religion, and politics, but there was a time when people paid more attention to the gibberish.
Usually someone who was raped uses that term literally.
She's worth several hundred million dollars. Life has many compensations if you're worth a few hundred million dollars. She'll find some way to carry on with diminished fame and sex appeal.
I miss her Euro accent.
Gave her such gravitas.
It's great that she attributes the journo lady being a deceitful bitch to Teh Patriarchy. So brave, lol.
McDonna
"Billions and Billions Sold"
Madonna is an asshole. Mostly.
I'd like Laslo's opinion.
"Madonna desperately wants to insert herself into the zeitgeist. If these are the crumbs she has to reach for, so be it."
God bless Trump. Lending relevance and purpose to all these aimless souls.
Lady Madonna, children at your feet
Wonder how you manage to make ends meet
Who finds the money when you pay the rent?
Did you think that money was heaven sent?
Friday night arrives without a suitcase
Sunday morning creeping like a nun
Monday's child has learned to tie his bootlace
See how they run
I remember watching Madonna's performance documentary Truth or Dare (1992?) and getting the impression that she was not even remotely a decent person. Ruthlessly controlling and selfish. You wouldn't want to be in a lifeboat with that woman. Her music was/is quite good.
“To say that I was disappointed in the article would be an understatement,” Madonna wrote. “It seems. You can’t fix society and its endless need to diminish, disparage or degrade that which they know is good. Especially strong independent women.”
Oh geez. I feel bad for the women here who have to endure this telegraphing of weakness.
Dear Strong Independent Madonna,
You won't find strong independent men whining about how society is diminishing disparaging and degrading them. Either "hear me roar" or be a perennially indignant victim. You can't be both.
The more American women moan about how easily oppressed they are, the more they telegraph that maybe they aren't equal to men afterall.
You are making it worse, you make women look weak.
J. Farmer said...
It's also interesting how among Trump's alpha-male machismo he is able to embody so many feminine traits. He is absurdly vain, has an OCD-like squeamishness to germs, and loves gossip and tabloids. If Andrew Sullivan weren't so hysterically averse to Trump, he could write the think piece on how Trump was the first gay president.
6/6/19, 6:35 PM
I’m glad I’m not the only one to make this observation. Pretty sure that the Donald is at the very least bisexual.
J. Farmer said...
Madonna's career has sadly been in a long steady decline for at least the past two decades. Her last great album was 2001's Music. Confessions on a Dance Floor was a welcome reprieve but not that substantial, and every album she has released since has sold half as much as the previous album. The only area of pop music where Madonna continues to reign supreme is in live performance, where Madonna continues to hold numerous concert records, mostly related to gross sales, mostly related to her outlandishly high ticket prices (which fans are still willing to pay).
6/6/19, 6:04 PM
You’re absolutely right in your assessment. “Music” is my cut off point as well. Her 90’s output was a particularly high watermark for me, so she can rest on her laurels.
bagoh20: Madonna, Michael Jackson and I are all the same age.
Madonna and Michael Jackson are two of the three artists to have songs on the Billboard Top 40 in the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. Can you guess who the third is? Hint - it's not bagoh20. :)
FWIW, Jackson actually hit the Top 40 in the 70s as a solo artist as well, and in the 60s as part of the Jackson 5.
I’m glad I’m not the only one to make this observation. Pretty sure that the Donald is at the very least bisexual.
Impossible. Unless he murdered all his male partners, somebody would have talked. We don't even hear controversion of the usual stance that he never drinks or drugs. I myself am repelled by filth and (you would presumably have to take my word for this) I'm as het as they come. Of course, I'm not vain or into gossip. But it's presumably possible to have feminine elements, like being thenthitive, as part of one's nature without being teh ghey.
And it would be "at most" bisexual because he has five children by three wives.
I'm allowed to because.....
You are not allowed to because....
And now we want to enforce this nonsense by law.
Some animals are more equal than others. Thomas Jefferson weeps.
Madonna giving a coke bottle blow job is cool.
Finding a old remote audio tape with Trump saying 'grab em by the pussy" is too much.
Bill Clinton and his sexual deviancy and force - all cool.
The governor of Virginia in black face standing next to a Klan costume in high school - or was that college? - A-ok!
The lieutenant governor of Virginia accused of rape by a women who is also a democrat = IGNORE!
and on and on....
Can you guess who the third is?
Eric Clapton or Cher.
A pack of liars made up stories about Bret Kavanaugh and rape rooms and rape parties. Lying for the greater good is totally cool and worthy of a cat hat.
Mmmm Susanna Hoffs.
The words "rape" and "racist" have no meaning anymore.
Thanks, liberals.
The patriarchy made Madonna what she is, so she should be grateful.
Gahrie: Eric Clapton or Cher.
Clapton and Cher both last hit the Top 40 in '98 ("My Father's Eyes" and "Believe", respectively).
I'll give the answer, since this post is going to drop off the front page soon:
"Weird Al" Yankovic.
The interesting thing is that Yankovic's only had four Top 40 hits in his entire career, he's just spread 'em out across the decades - "Eat It" in '84, "Smells Like Nirvana" in '92, "White & Nerdy" in '06, and "Word Crimes" in '14.
Cher: Billboard #1's
1960's: I Got You Babe (As part of Sonny & Cher) 1965
1970's: (4) including Half Breed 1973
1980's: (2) including If I Could Turn Back Time 1989 (I thought this was much newer than that)
1990's: (3) including Believe 1999
2000's: (2) Including Love Song 2002
2010's: You Haven't Seen the Last of Me 2011
Looking back, you specified Billboard Top 40, and Cher's #1 songs might not have been in that particular list, even though they were number 1's on one of Billboard's charts.
What I love about Althouse comments: read the exchange beween SeanF and Gahrie. They are both providing evidence and specifically defining the issue on which they are making claims. They are (to an extent) disagreeing with each other but without ever calling names or being nasty. Just moving the question forward with documented information. Compare this to the WaPo comments sections, where this almost never happens.
Gahrie: Looking back, you specified Billboard Top 40, and Cher's #1 songs might not have been in that particular list, even though they were number 1's on one of Billboard's charts.
Yeah, when I heard that piece of trivia, it specified Billboard Top 40. According to Wikipedia, since the turn of the century, Cher's had six singles hit top 40 on the US Adult Contemporary charts, and nine singles hit top 40 on the US Dance charts, but only one song ("Song for the Lonely", 2002) that made the "regular" Top 100, maxing out at 85.
"Hit the Top 40" is one of those things that doesn't really tell you anything about an artist's popularity - but as a long time "Weird Al" fan, I find it endlessly amusing.
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