IN THE COMMENTS: Tim in Vermont says:
“Toxic masculinity” is either sloppy language, or a slur against all men.I've been meaning to write a post about the phrase. There is a big problem with it, because there are basically 2 ways to understand it and one is so offensive that it should probably be avoided, because if you mean the one that I think is okay, you're still likely to be misunderstood and you are — even if only unwittingly — emitting some hate vibes.
The okay meaning sees the adjective "toxic" in "toxic masculinity" like the adjective "red" in "red shoes." It identifies a subcategory — the shoes that are red (as opposed to all the many other shoes) and the masculinity that is toxic (as opposed to all the other masculinity).
The hateful meaning sees the adjective "toxic" in "toxic masculinity" like the adjective "beloved" in "beloved country." You're referring to one thing — one country or masculinity as a single concept — and you're branding it as "beloved" or "toxic."
Let me use a survey to try to understand how you have been reading the term. I have not found the Gillette commercial hateful, and a lot of you have disagreed with me, and I suspect it's because I'm hearing the okay meaning and you're hearing the hateful meaning. (You can watch the commercial at that link.)
Posts
144 comments:
I Want My Wall Along The Mason-Dixon Line. Words and Music to come.
Cool people are everywhere. Assholes are everywhere too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82GH8w9bpfQ
Translation: Once again Althouse yells at the people who dare to disagree with her tears about 'beautiful children'.
The fact that more than 50% of the population who pays attention to this stuff disagree with her does not strike a single note of self examination.
Excuse me. That is not fair. She DID watch it twice and she wept more the second time.
Feminists like Ana Kasparian railing at men about toxic masculinity and criminalizing the idea that men should approach women are worthy of tears of joy in Althouse.
Look well, oh wolves, look well!
Rogan is unintentionally making the point why SJWs are broadcasting this BS 24/7 from every platform (yes, including Gillette ads): everyone in every part of the culture who wants to be seen as "cool" by the likes of Rogan need constant priming on what the latest requirement to be seen as cool is. He explicitly endorses the notion that people with Southern accents used to be uneducated uncool people. But now the are "pockets" of cool people everywhere. Thanks, of course, to the very kind of cultural SJW broadcasting he pretends to question.
Google "Gillette Grid Girls."
And look at their asses.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Gillette+Grid+Girls&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTmJDZm_rfAhUKSK0KHV3HACYQ_AUIDigB&biw=841&bih=562
“Toxic masculinity” is either sloppy language, or a slur against all men. It’s a stupid phrase for a company that is trying to sell to men to use. Imagine Subaru coming out with an ad that mocks SJWs.
Personally though, I am more upset that now they are using the razor money to the tune of a million dollars a year to subsidize these groups, groups that apparently use terms like “toxic masculinity”
Imagine if they talked about the “Democrat Party”.
Is this what 'cool' sounds like?
From Gillette’s Cavalcade of Sports, from Being Sharp and Looking Sharp, from Gillette’s Friday Night Fights, Gillette has become today’s Soy Boys.
Enjoy the memories,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cyy_rziuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4RIp2-YOH8
If ya wanna sing along, here’s an orchestra that’ll help ya out,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaSTSdksGlU
And Howard Cosell, live at ringside, nasally calls it,
“Down goes Gillette”
“Down goes Gillette”
“Down goes Gillette”
I'm starting a new line of men's products under the "Toxic Male" brand. There will be Virulent Cologne, Noxious After Shave, and Pestilent Deodorant in the initial offering.
Althouse's poster boys for anti-Gillette sentiments.
When are the going to change the name of the Patriots to the Patricias? Put’s a whole new spin on the name “The Pats”
“It’s the Pats!”
We could do this with more football teams too, the Chargers could change their symbol from a lightening bolt to a credit card. Imagine if the Chargers were meeting the Bills! “The Bills are due!”
“Cool people are everywhere. Assholes are everywhere too.”
I think someone once called that the wheat and the tares growing together.
I guess Gillette doesn't target the Islamic community because those guys don't shave much. Besides that woman who got banned from Twitter, have you heard of any feminists or SJWs who take them on.
1:11+
"nobody wants to be lectured to. We are tired of that."
Hang on -the democratics are in full lecture you 24/7 mode.
A lot of shits and fucks without much to show for it. Guys hanging out theater.
They need a babe to walk by.
Probably the perfect presentation would involve a naked-like babe in the background completely ignored as they talk shits and fucks.
The left suck power through the forbidden straw of "American's are mostly racists, misogynists, homophobic, Islamophobic, xenophobic, ..."
This is their key to power. Making people believe that "the other" is that bad. Only the pure virtuous socialist democratics care.
Trump and his supporters, even his mild supporters - are all deplorable racist haters who beat kids up at barbecue. We need saving by the cult of lefty donor mega corporation.
Anyone else getting Gillette mixed up with the American Psychological Association?
"Translation: Once again Althouse yells at the people who dare to disagree with her tears about 'beautiful children'."
I'm not hiring you as my translator.
I like Joe Rogan and put this up because I thought it was well done. It's a different reaction to the Gillette commercial than I had, but I had no feeling that I was somehow "yelling" at him. He's yelling, but it's his style and I get it.
Yes sir, the South is gonna change. Everything's gonna be put on electricity and run on a payin' basis. Out with the old spiritual mumbo jumbo, the superstitions and the backward ways. We're gonna see a brave new world where they run everybody a wire and hook us all up to a grid. Yessir, a veritable Age of Rogan, like the one they had in France, not a moment too soon.
Women have no idea what it is like to be lectured 24/7 like this. Just take a minute and imagine that the culture was treating your sex, and by extension, you personally as it is currently treating men. All day long depictions of stupid, mean, ignorant, selfish, women who men only grudgingly tolerate if they do at all. Women in general being openly called "toxic" by nature. Seriously, take a moment and just imagine how that would be, and what the reaction would be. Would there be some pushback against a corporation who seemed to endorse that? I bet there would be marches in the streets, calls for legislation to limit speech, and general gnashing of teeth. Now imagine those same men further criticized you now for not accepting and agreeing with their fully negative depictions of you.
Am I the only one to find your poll options unintelligible?
Toxic Masculinity... cause nobody calls a Feminist when the shit hits the fan!
This male bashing only mildly irritates me personally, because its effects on someone my age are minimal, while still unfair. The truely evil part of it is how it is affecting younger men trying to find their footing, their place, and to flesh out their duty and obligations to those around them while looking for the validation and acceptance that all humans need to be healthy, happy and valuable to their world. Young men are only hearing what is wrong with them by nature, and getting little encouragement to try and be better. Messages composed like the Gillette one do not encourage men to rise to a higher calling, they just turn you off. This was a fail.
I'm not hiring you as my translator.
'Rants at Rogan ranting against ad' would perhaps have been a more accurate phrase.
Plus, this is spin on your part. If you thought it was 'well done', you wouldn't have implied that he weirdly shifts gears onto a totally different topic in a mere three minutes. That is a deft criticism of his focus and mental discipline, as well as strongly implying that he really doesn't have a lot of 'meat' to his argument. Translation: I am right and Rogan is wrong.
But I will let the commenters decide how accurate my translations are. I work for them.
I never thought of Nurse Ratched as a character that people would want to emulate, but that's who a lot of people sound like in our culture today.
Let's not call it masculinity. Call it aggression.
☝️
"Toxic Masculinity" and "Black Lives Matter" must have come out of the same PR shop. Both have no defined meaning but are used to shut down rational conversation.
I don't think the phrase "toxic masculinity" is really usable in a generic advertising sense. In a personal conversation or an op-ed it will have context. In an ad it's supposed to be a shorthand reference that everyone reads the same way. Which is not the case.
It's not really a question of foreground and background. The ad equivocates between the hateful and non-hateful meanings. Consider those men anxiously examining themselves in the mirror: we're obviously not meant to take them for rapists or wife-beaters or whatever, but in that case what is it they're supposed to be asking themselves? Fellas, don't think you can weasel out of the collective guilt just by not doing the toxic things yourself!
We also get, as is usual at times of peak moral panic, much lumping together of the highly objectionable with the unobjectionable (the guy taking off after the attractive woman on the street with the apparent intention of chatting her up) and the mildly objectionable (the two little boys scuffling).
Crybaby conservatism
Get real, Althouse. The commercial isn’t meant to impress men. It’s just dues for the SJW circle jerk. Nothing more or less.
I was watching something on TV, and an ad came on for a tool that screens job applicants. It was like magic, all of the white males were screened. out and “ding ding ding” a beautiful young brunette comes into focus! It’s like magic! Imagine how much fun it will be having this babe decorate your office with her presence! Of course the girl wasn’t blonde, because we know blondes aren’t smart enough to do jobs like this.
This is the kind of shit we see 24X7. There is a real thing called “intertextualism” that means that every text you read is affected in some way by multiple other texts that you have read. The Gillette ad draws in the baggage of so many Twitter harpies I am not going to name check, because that only encourages them, but there is a lot of misandry out there. Which is different than misogyny. As I understand it, a misogynist is somebody who differs with the aims of feminism in any way. A misandrist is somebody who really does find men “toxic."
Blogger WintersTale said...
Crybaby conservatism
Gaslighting.
There are now "cool people everywhere".
By "cool" I think Rogan means tolerant.
Which explains why identity politics for the left is so important right now.
If people with shared "traditional values" are increasingly reaching across racial and other lines because of increasing tolerance and understanding, how else does the left keep their base constituencies in line except to divide them along identity/grievance lines?
Boycotts are how the game is played. I am sure that Gillette was threatened with the “Uber treatment” if they didn’t come across, and so boycotts are the only real response we have.
“Toxic masculinity” is either sloppy language, or a slur against all men.
Inclusive OR. If it were not a slur against men they would call it "toxic behavior" or the more mundane and more correct "bad behavior".
I have not found the Gillette commercial hateful
I agree. I think the commercial is very reactionary and conservative. The beginning of the commercial shows men and boys behaving badly. The middle shows men to be complacent. "Boys will be boys."
The end of the commercial shows men to coming to the rescue. Good men not government, feminist or corporations.
The ad is saying it is time to return to the old days of imposed morality and to get away from the "if it feels good do it" philosophy.
"Gaslighting."
If you say so.
The ad isn't really targeting men with an overabundance of toxicity to their masculinity - as voters such men go to Trump generally (Weinstein and many other exceptions).
It's targeting men more thoughtful men, to encourage them to step up more, run interference for the targetted victims, and encouraging women to expect more from men. That's my initial impression anyway, and good job. Great message for young men. There's nothing in it that treats all masculinity as "toxic". Well, if you're a crybaby.
Ha! Thanks! The problem is that once you ring a bell with a phrase like “toxic masculinity” it can’t be un-rung. Tell me a Democrat is going to sit through a rant by somebody, no matter how otherwise anodyne, when the term “Democrat Party” appears early on. It’s an invitation to tune it out.
Althouse said..."Ihave not found the Gillette commercial hateful, and a lot of you have disagreed with me, and I suspect it's because I'm hearing the okay meaning and you're hearing the hateful meaning."
Gee, I wonder which way is meant by the people using the phrase?
Crybaby conservatism
For decades, the Left have enjoyed the culture war in the one sided fight it is because the Right never decided to show.
Now the Right is showing up, showing up the Left as the hypocrites and vile liars that they are...and the Left is gob smacked. They now lack entirely the ability to debate these issues (See Althouse: she never debated these issues, she insisted on evidence and legal parsing to uphold her opinions)
Thus we have Exhibit XX above, who pithily tries to shame any criticism of the aims of the Feminist Director of this ad offensive to men.
So if I used the term Feminist Crybaby when women complain about 'mansplaining' or 'manspreading' or the myths of wage gaps, do you think Winters Tale would accept this as a valid critique.
Of course not.
You no longer are able to launch attacks and declare victory, Winter Tale. Now you need to prove a better argument.
And if the polling of this ad is any indication, you better work VERY hard to do so.
There's nothing in it that treats all masculinity as "toxic". Well, if you're a crybaby.
I guess it depends on whether you have a solid grasp of English and the rules of its grammar. See the update to the post. That’s why I say you are either gaslighting, or you are a hopeless moron. I took the high road and said you were gaslighting.
The ambiguity in the phrase "toxic masculinity" is completely intentional. It allows the people who use the phrase to have it both ways. If anyone complains, they say, "I'm just talking about those behaviors by men which are causing problems, what's wrong with that?" Then they go on using it to mean that it's the men that are the problem, not the behaviors.
"there are basically 2 ways to understand it and one is so offensive that it should probably be avoided, because if you mean the one that I think is okay, you're still likely to be misunderstood and you are — even if only unwittingly — emitting some hate vibes."
No. There is only one way. The term is only used by people who wittingly emit hate vibes. At times they use just-an-adjective head fakes for plausible deniability, but even then their meaning is clear.
Feminists used to be against essentialism. Of course, like anything else, the critique turned out to be just a tool, easily discarded when essentializing men as toxic became handy.
Playing word games to suggest that tm could have a "good" meaning--we're just calling attention to some bad things some men do, see? why do y'all get so worked up?--adds to the toxic effects of the toxicity claims.
I agree. I think the commercial is very reactionary and conservative. The beginning of the commercial shows men and boys behaving badly. The middle shows men to be complacent. "Boys will be boys."
What bad behavior was that?
Was it kids play fighting in ways that don't hurt?
Was it attractive men approaching attractive women? (HORRORS!)
Was it a television show showing a man violating norms by goosing a maid and people laughing at the violation of norms?
Was it a boss talking over a subordinate; a subordinate who was also pulling down six figures. If she, in her custom suit and her expensively coifed hair is the face of oppression, than the debate over feminism is over. If anything. Ms. Snowflake is treated BETTER than the men because the boss will likely not curse at HER to her face.
So please...what particularly was 'bad' about this behavior?
"The problem is that once you ring a bell with a phrase like “toxic masculinity” it can’t be un-rung. Tell me a Democrat is going to sit through a rant by somebody, no matter how otherwise anodyne, when the term “Democrat Party” appears early on. It’s an invitation to tune it out."
There is a negative or toxic side to all ideologies. People have to able to more or less objectively look at themselves, their beliefs, their tribes and realize some of that stuff isn't good. There is a tendency for others to take advantage, paint everyone that way, globalize our worst side. But if anyone wants to evolve or change they have to be able to see themselves with greater honesty.
A lot of men are up for that challenge now. Things are changing in a big way. Two steps forward, one step back.
You are kidding yourself if you believe anyone who uses the term, and especially those involved in inventing it, means it as anything other than a slur against all men and all things masculine.
The better question would be:
Define what actions/traits are masculine and.....What part of masculinity do they NOT consider toxic?
I will bet that those who use the term TOXIC masculinity are considering all things masculine as being toxic and would not be able to give any "good" masculine traits.
The tell that they mean all masculinity is toxic is that the phrase “boys will be boys” triggers them. It suggests that after millions of years of evolution, and by the way, female sexual selection of males, boys are not simple blank slates onto which any political agenda can be written.
This really struck home for me when I was talking to a family member who is an actual Marxist who claimed that I was wrong when I said that man is not perfectible. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t bring that up to bring “Cultural Marxism” into the discussion either, it’s a true thing that happened last. week.
I know that I like that Althouse writes about whatever she wants, but one day I hope. she writes about what is problematic about “boys bill be boys.” I never read it to excuse, for example, the kinds of behaviors that Bill Clinton engages in. That would be more “Democrats will be Democrats."
The term is never used in the ad. Maybe it's not a great term, I'm not sure. Something better might be found.
What bad behavior was that?
Was it kids play fighting in ways that don't hurt?
Was it attractive men approaching attractive women? (HORRORS!)
Was it a television show showing a man violating norms by goosing a maid and people laughing at the violation of norms?
Was it a boss talking over a subordinate; a subordinate who was also pulling down six figures. If she, in her custom suit and her expensively coifed hair is the face of oppression, than the debate over feminism is over. If anything. Ms. Snowflake is treated BETTER than the men because the boss will likely not curse at HER to her face.
So please...what particularly was 'bad' about this behavior?
As I said, this ad isn't for people who think this way - it's gonna be a long time for some people to change, if ever. It's a great ad targeting people who are already thinking about these issues. It's not for people who are dug in.
I liked the commercial that showed a dad's reaction to his son's trophy that said 'participant' when his team had won. He tore off the label and wrote 'champion'. I'm quite sure that women are behind the 'participant' practice. Self-esteem over merit.
Kia Commercial
But if anyone wants to evolve or change they have to be able to see themselves with greater honesty.
My suggestion to you then is to go talk to members of your own party who participated in a thirty year conspiracy of silence on the actions of Bill Clinton. Go ahead, say it: “Bill Clinton committed forcible rape beyond a reasonable doubt.”
You guys work on your credibility. Harvey Weinstein, close friend of the Clintons, known to all of Hollywood, it seems, huge Democrat donor, you work on what is wrong with your party, you acknowldedge that you have a Senator, Bob Menendez who has been accused by underage girls, victims of sex trafficking, and who still sits in the Senate, you deal with that stuff, then get back to us.
Meahwhile Gillette. can go fuck themselves, And I used to spend a fair amount of money on their products.
Althouse is in error.
"Toxic masculinity" is virtue signaling marker for radical feminist, victimhood identity politics social justice warrioring.
There can be no benign meaning to the phrase in 2019, any more than a german National Socialist using "Judenrat" in 1934. "We're just calling out toxic elements in the Jewish identity! Why are you so defensive?"
/Godwinned
Where is the movement to rein in "toxic femininity"?
What would be great is if some Kansas City fans taunted the “Pats” and Gillette during the game.
There is a negative or toxic side to all ideologies. People have to able to more or less objectively look at themselves, their beliefs, their tribes and realize some of that stuff isn't good. There is a tendency for others to take advantage, paint everyone that way, globalize our worst side. But if anyone wants to evolve or change they have to be able to see themselves with greater honesty.
A lot of men are up for that challenge now.
I wonder when our feminists in the media will start running photographs of abortion so that people on the left can take a look in a mirror and ask hard questions of themselves.
My suggestion to you then is to go talk to members of your own party who participated in a thirty year conspiracy of silence on the actions of Bill Clinton.
Here comes the crybaby. "Gillette can go fuck themselves" tearfully. Always fighting the last war. I mentioned Weinstein before you did. I think you might be the one who doesn't have the capacity for self-examination. But many of you aren't really being invited to the discussion table where the grownups on all sides are trying to figure this out for the general welfare - you aren't ready.
”A lot of people say ‘What’s that?’ It’s Pat!"
Couldn’t say it, could you. Still in the conspiracy of silence on Bill Clinton.
"I wonder when our feminists in the media will start running photographs of abortion..."
You can work on these issues productively without solving abortion differences. If we can't move forward until abortion is settled we're all gonna stay retarded for a very long time.
"Still in the conspiracy of silence on Bill Clinton."
Your fights are in the past. Your arguments are anachronisms. Can't get anywhere with you for sure.
Right, you can’t say it. All you can do is wish us into the grave. It’s gonna be a while, and by the time we are gone, you are going to either have learned some things in life or you are dirt stupid.
Can't say what? And yes, a lot of attitudes and ideologies you may just as well throw them in the grave. They're over.
Over half way through #Januhairy...
But many of you aren't really being invited to the discussion table where the grownups on all sides are trying to figure this out for the general welfare - you aren't ready.
You might say we're deplorable.
"You might say we're deplorable."
Say what you want. Some people just aren't ready to talk about how we go forward from here with people on the opposite side. That's just the way it is.
Guys don't mind the phrase. It's not seen as hate so much as women acting like women. What do you expect, is the male attitude. It's just part of the challenge, if you're up for that sort of thing, or for bemusement if you're not.
“Bill Clinton is beyond reasonable doubt a forcible rapist.”
“Bob Menendez D - NJ is very likely, as children involved have alleged to the FBI, a participant in child sex trafficking”
“Hillary Clinton knew all about Harvey Weinstein”
I agree that the kinds of behaviors described above are abhorrant, and you know what? Conservatives have been against this stuff for a long time. Where have you been for the last 30 years that you think it’s us who need to “evolve”?
“The fact that more than 50% of the population who pays attention to this stuff disagree with her does not strike a single note of self examination.”
And just how do you come to this conclusion? Just because more than 50% of people here disagree with Althouse’s take doesn’t mean that more than 50% of people who don’t read right leaning blogs disagree with her take. You people here don’t represent more than 50% of the American populace, more like around 35%.
and encouraging women to expect more from men.
Just exactly what should men expect from women today? Or are we even allowed to expect anything at all?
Think about 30 years of public appearances by Bill Clinton without once worrying that he would be asked about any of it. It’s not us who need to evolve.
Say what you want. Some people just aren't ready to talk about how we go forward from here with people on the opposite side. That's just the way it is.
How do you talk to someone who insists that everything about you is evil and all of the world's problems are your fault?
Toxic masculinity is a diversity class or color judgment similar to White privilege, Jew privilege, racism, sexism, genderism, etc.
See, Inga has evolved from her “You don’t know what I think about Bill Clinton” stance, so there’s a little bit of progress from your side.
So the ad is going to played during the Souper Bowl.
Tweet by Somesuch head:'
sally campbell @sallyc70
An exclamation mark...AN EXCLAMATION MARK...
It’s flabbergasting to me how such an incredibly stupid and vile man can run the USA...😢😱😫😡
Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump
My warmest condolences and sympathies to the victims and families of the terrible Las Vegas shooting. God bless you!
2
10:08 AM - Oct 2, 2017
The poll leaves out an important option: "I'm offended by the ad's racist content."
You can work on these issues productively without solving abortion differences.
Translation: Abortion will continue to be off limits for debate because my side is ideological extremists and I don't want to admit this.
And yes, I have listened and seen the phrase 'toxic masculinity' in that ad several times now, so you are either someone with a short memory or a liar.
Watch it again.
One does not put Ana Kasparian into an ad when one wants to reach both sides of the aisle, any more than a Republican would put David Duke in an ad to reach out to minorities.
"How do you talk to someone who insists that everything about you is evil and all of the world's problems are your fault?"
Crybaby conservatism. Can't talk to you now.
And just how do you come to this conclusion? Just because more than 50% of people here disagree with Althouse’s take doesn’t mean that more than 50% of people who don’t read right leaning blogs disagree with her take. You people here don’t represent more than 50% of the American populace, more like around 35%.
I am not going by the commentariat here at all. I can simply look at the HUGE majority of down votes and comments on the Gillette ad itself. I think that is more representative of the populous. But thanks for playing.
I can also look at the media, who, despite being in the Democrat's tank, are sighing and shaking their heads over how inept this ad was and easily foreseeably bad.
Oh dear lord. Crybaby conservatism.
There is no talking to soy boys. Don't even bother.
"And yes, I have listened and seen the phrase 'toxic masculinity' in that ad several times now, so you are either someone with a short memory or a liar.
Watch it again."
Just listened again - closely - this time I heard it. But to you I'm a liar or "short memory". You're someone who assumes the worst of your opponents - that's a very common failing among a lot of people on all sides. It means to me, you aren't fit to be at the grownup table discussing these things.
“Crybaby conservatism.”
I’ve been seeing a wave of crybabyism in the new Men’s Movement for several years now. Whining and crying and overreacting to the fact that the old ways are no longer acceptable and won’t be tolerated, especially by the younger generation. So have your conniption fits, cry and stomp your manly feet, no one cares anymore, unless they fall into that 35%.
George Grady: The ambiguity in the phrase "toxic masculinity" is completely intentional. It allows the people who use the phrase to have it both ways. If anyone complains, they say, "I'm just talking about those behaviors by men which are causing problems, what's wrong with that?" Then they go on using it to mean that it's the men that are the problem, not the behaviors.
Precisely. See "motte and bailey".
"I can simply look at the HUGE majority of down votes and comments on the Gillette ad itself. I think that is more representative of the populous."
Science. You libs with your feelies.
We exist as "sin eaters” for liberals.
They project their darkest emotions and guilt on us. They project onto us their sellout of feminism for the past 30 years.
They project onto us their love for authoritarianism. "I have a pen and a phone!” “Che is so hot, especially just after he shoots a dissident in the head personally with a pistol at his garden wall before breakfast!”
They project onto us their adoration for ruling families like the Kennedys. “If Mary Jo were still with us, she would appreciate Ted Kennedy’s steadfast support for abortion!”
And now we are lectured that we are the ones who need to hear this shit.
overreacting to the fact that the old ways are no longer acceptable and won’t be tolerated. - Inga
“What you can do to a woman against her will has changed.” - Bill Clinton
The “old ways” have been unacceptable to us for a long time Inga.
“I am not going by the commentariat here at all. I can simply look at the HUGE majority of down votes and comments on the Gillette ad itself. I think that is more representative of the populous. But thanks for playing.”
I guess it never occurred to you that most people don’t care enough about ads like the Gillette ad and it’s mild rebuke to comment on the video. It’s the crybabies who overreacted who are commenting. There are people out there who don’t get excited over such things.
"We exist as "sin eaters” for liberals.
They project their darkest emotions and guilt on us. They project onto us their sellout of feminism for the past 30 years.
They project onto us their love for authoritarianism."
Man, where you gonna hear such bullshite! Boo hoo boo hoo!!! Waaaahhh! Grow the fuck up.
Or bother to down vote or even watch the ad on YouTube.
What we don’t like is being told by the perpetrators of this shit that we are the ones who need to change.
Man, where you gonna hear such bullshite!
“Reject. first, ask rhetorical questions later.” It’s a style of argument originated by Aristotle, I think.
What I do notice is that you have no counter arguments.
No counterarguments to your nonsense! Ha. No that's for sure not. I'll berate your foolishness all day long though.
"What we don’t like is being told by the perpetrators of this shit that we are the ones who need to change."
And I'm telling you no one thinks you are. No one's asking you to. That's the way it goes, you aren't invited.
But don't think for a moment you represent ALL conservative commentators on Althouse. Many, yes, but not all.
It’s OK, you showed yourself to be not very bright with the original “toxic masculinity” comment, so I don’t expect you to understand any arguments that aren’t spoon fed to you by some mugging late night host or through some meme. But I will say that I have eliminated the “gaslighting” possibility for you.
I think today's prize for "most comically earnest struggle-sessioner" should go to WintersTale.
Toxic masculinity = motte & bailey
On the poll; I normally hear the "okay" meaning, but the commercial has a problem with its title, which suggests only the "hateful" meaning. "Is this the best a man can get?" suggests that all men are currently no better than toxic masculinity. I also find the argument that men should always call out other men for poor behavior the moral equivalent of "slut shaming". There's a time and a place for things. And a manager reaching out and touching your shoulder in a meeting to demonstrate "this person" is not a sexual act.
I had to quit using Gillette razors early last year. I donated several unopened packages of them to charity. I guess as my beard has gradually turned white, it has also turned into steel wool so that the triple blade clogs up and the flexible head glides right over the top of the whiskers. It was if I hadn't shaved at all. I tried other brands, which were better but not much.
So, instead of figuring out why their products don't work anymore, they lecture us like naughty ten year old schoolboys. And boy, as Rogan says, are we tired of that. But, I'm actually glad this happened because in the comments, people mentioned Merkur razors which are like the old double edge razors. That's exactly what I've been trying to find.
@ Winter's Tale
it's gonna be a long time for some people to change,
Pray tell...what exactly...and I do mean exactly is the change that you expect to see?
2017:
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/kim-gehrig-wants-show-female-directors/1425543
Gehrig is acutely aware of the barriers facing female directors, especially as a mother of two children.
"As a director, the hours you’re supposed to work and the relentlessness of the role are very hard with children," she says. "Everyone talks about equality, but I’m a real believer that women, particularly with children, need more help not equal help."
Returning from maternity leave for the second time, Gehrig says she worried, "‘Shit, I’m going to be irrelevant soon, I’ve got to get some work.’ It’s a fickle business and you have to keep making work."
--
Seems the husband/father/donor is quite difficult to find.
Rogan is a comedian. Ranting is one of the things he do.
I mentioned this last time and several comments have included the more formal term of "motte & bailey argument." To accept that "toxic masculinity" is a benign term requires that you believe the person speaking is using the term in good faith. There is no good faith to be had. This "motte & bailey" has become so standard among this group that to expect good faith is the height of stupidity. There is no doubt to give benefit of the doubt. They mean what they say and they say they hate men.
For goodness sake, we had a supposedly serious person argue that the First Lady should be stripped of her Secret Service protection and, by extension, should be killed because she is an orthodox Christian. We are not playing games anymore. This is for real.
Pray tell...what exactly...and I do mean exactly
I don't know "exactly" what will happen. I don't know about the perfectability of humankind either, but we're generally moving forward. We treat each other better, have more tolerance, less racism, sexism, speciesism. Sometimes we go backwards but not for long.
Will we survive long enough to benefit?
(Obviously, not the First Lady but the Second Lady. Not that it makes it even a tiny bit better.)
"I’ve been seeing a wave of crybabyism in the new Men’s Movement for several years now"
Men don't belong to ,"the mens movement".
Beta males do.
Less ... speciesism.
It’s Trumpit! I should have known! Well played.
There are some videos of interviewers asking women "what are women better at than men?" The women have plenty of examples, ow even answer "everything". Then they asks "what are men better at than women?" Silence and rolling eyes, or "nothing" is the answer. Men have no problem telling you what women are superior at, and they are important things, but many women today are too tightly wrapped in the falsities of feminist dogma to even tell the truth as they know it in their hearts.
The commercial assumes:
1) Men are more boorish than ever and it's a serious problem.
2) Men are supporting that behavior or not resisting it.
3) Men will respond favorably to being told how to act decently by people assuming the above is who they are.
Gillette is not going to enjoy the results. Just dumb. Do you think anyone really considered how men would react? Maybe not all men, but is advertising supposed to reduce your market?
bagoh20 conflating the Gillette video with unspecified something else entirely that he he has seen or his brother has told him about to demonstrate how the Gillette video is dumb.
Lib feelies though.
What the scolds on the left don't realize is you just can't keep blaming people for things they didn't do. Like this ad.
Because at some point, people are going to simply not give a damn what they say - or worse, do - because they're going to be blamed anyways.
That's pretty much where I'm at.
You know what else is dumb? Having no argument to make, but blabing anyway. Why are you here? Don't you have neighbor's fence to piss on?
Me: Pray tell...what exactly...and I do mean exactly is the change that you expect to see?
Winter's Tale said: I don't know "exactly" what will happen.
Well, that non answer wasn't even close to what I asked.
What do YOU expect to see? What changes do you WANT to see? Surely you have SOME sort of changes in mind.
Will we survive long enough to benefit?
Benefit from what?
The strong, useful and capable will survive. I expect that the beta soy boys, feminanzi's who have inflated ideas of their own self worth and SJW who talk a big game, won't.
Your fights are in the past. Your arguments are anachronisms. Can't get anywhere with you for sure.
Says the person who's blaming Trump for Obama getting us stuck in Syria.
At least you're consistent with your idiocy.
Why are you here?
To use you for my mirth and to argue with your betters.
@ Bagho....There are some videos of interviewers asking women "what are women better at than men?"
I got into "trouble" with my daughter when her son, (my grandson) asked me when we were playing at the playground's jungle gym (I guess you can still call it that).
He asked me if boys were stronger than girls and I said. "Pretty much. Most boys are stronger than most girls and most men are stronger than most women. Some girls can be stronger but in general boys are stronger than girls."
My daughter (later) was...how could I say that!! in a shocked voice.
Well. Because it is scientifically true. DO you want me to LIE to my Grandson? Are you stronger than your husband? (clue...she is not) Men are in general built differently than women and have more upper body and grip strength. Why do you want to make "name of grandson" feel less than he is?
That didn't go over so well. Tuff shit. The truth is the truth.
Blogger WintersTale said...
"Pray tell...what exactly...and I do mean exactly
I don't know "exactly" what will happen. I don't know about the perfectability of humankind either, but we're generally moving forward. We treat each other better, have more tolerance, less racism, sexism, speciesism. Sometimes we go backwards but not for long.
Will we survive long enough to benefit?"
You can thank capitalism and enlightened classic liberlism for that since the default situation is poverty and misery.
Will we survive? depaends on how far you want to push progressivism.
WintersTale: bagoh20 conflating the Gillette video with unspecified something else entirely...
No, he gave an accurate and specific description of the commercial in question after a short remark on the more general nature of the problem. Apparently comprehending adult level expository prose, even at so minimal level of abstraction, poses an insurmountable cognitive difficulty for you.
Doesn't surprise me, though - judging from what you've produced here, you've never dealt in any thinking more rigorous and exact than that required to parrot the vague bromides of remedial sociology classes (from which you're apparently an escapee.)
Blogger Dust Bunny Queen said...
DO you want me to LIE to my Grandson?
--
Just wants you to be factually inaccurate but morally correct.
For progress..
No, he gave an accurate and specific description of the commercial in question after a short remark on the more general nature of the problem. Apparently comprehending adult level expository prose, even at so minimal level of abstraction, poses an insurmountable cognitive difficulty for you.
Okay.
Says the person who's blaming Trump for Obama getting us stuck in Syria.
Obama got the troops into Syria. Trump got them killed.
Althouse:
can you provide behavioral examples that fall under what you consider the "okay" meaning of "toxic masculinity"? And similarly, can you provide corresponding examples of "toxic femininity"?
“You people here don’t represent more than 50% of the American populace, more like around 35%.”
Good Lord, that’s ignorant. A united and militant 35% of any nation’s population, especially when that 35% is from the producing classes, can make the other 65% dance to their tune any day of the week.
Lol. "Full Moon" probably couldn't be reached for comment. He pretends to be a hard-core feminist female identity activist every chance he gets. A funny stance for a college-dropout, let alone a cheap contractor. And yet, he does it every time!
Paco Wove asks can you provide behavioral examples that fall under what you consider the "okay" meaning of "toxic masculinity"?
Seriously. What IS the toxic in toxic masculinity.
I don't mean criminal actions like rape or battery. Or actions that everyone agrees are rude...such as grabbing people's (women's or men's) body parts without permission. Unwanted touching.
There are a lot of rude and unacceptable actions that are not exclusive to men or to women. There are plenty of actions that are common to both men and women. What are the ones that are exclusive to men???
So...what exactly are the toxic masculinity traits that we should all be aghast over. Wait! I need to find my fainting couch for this.
There is a specific reason that the SJWs believe they can just attach an adjective 'toxic' to masculinity and have fellow travelers, weak thinkers and suckers think it is not an insult to all men. Their construction is this: Masculinity is a continuum. It starts at zero and gets progressively more toxic. But we're not against all masculinity, just strong masculinity. It's just that the more feminine, the better.
Think about that: the more masculine, the more toxic (the silly alternative is that there are some regions of masculinity that are toxic, and as you move from less masculine to more masculine you go in and out of toxicity).
No. All such word control must be rejected. There is a reason SJWs choose to control the wording. The goal is: 'toxic masculinity' is how we will say 'aberrant behavior' from now on.
Reminds me of how the word 'deniers' is chosen (stimulating Nazi concentration camp groupthink) to 'innocently' describe those skeptical of putting our future into the hands of climate control models.
Inga gobbled out:
I guess it never occurred to you that most people don’t care enough about ads like the Gillette ad and it’s mild rebuke to comment on the video. It’s the crybabies who overreacted who are commenting. There are people out there who don’t get excited over such things.
Actually, since I am not a talking point NPC, I am willing to countenance that argument with some additional evidence.
At this point, there is so much 'buzz' about that ad, arguing that no 'normal' people gave it a look as you assert, puts the balance of likelihood on my interpretation.
Since I am willing to acknowledge that it's POSSIBLE that it is only YouTube MouthBreathers who did the voting, are you willing to concede that no matter who is voting, that it looks very bad for Gillette?
Because while Althouse works very hard to see only the Great Reasons for the words "Toxic Masculinity" from the same ladies of 'Men must Die' and 'Why isn't it okay to hate men?', the great unwashed masses who hear about the commercial, hear about the hate, have already had their lenses ground by that meme: This is a hateful ad.
Contrarians are going to disagree. The majority will have their thoughts, particularly the flashing 'Toxic Masculinity' beep moved a little bit more against Feminism...and likely Gillette.
Live by the douchy rumor, die by the douchy rumor.
over in overdose. It implies all masculinity is bad, but more is worse.
Althouse should google “Motte and bailey argument “.
WintersTale wrote...But don't think for a moment you represent ALL conservative commentators on Althouse. Many, yes, but not all.
Anyone else get a whiff of the dear departed Chuck from that one?
bagoh20 said: "Do you think anyone really considered how men would react? Maybe not all men, but is advertising supposed to reduce your market?"
It's the same as all media: they're trying to reach the audience that can be moulded by advertising, by language, by image. Gillette is bonding to the gullible, and figuring it will work for them in the long run.
You can work on these issues productively without solving abortion differences.
Did you notice that Brett Kavanaugh was called a rapist at his confirmation hearing?
I wonder if that had anything to do with abortion politics.
Hey, did you notice that nobody paid attention when a woman said Bill Clinton raped her?
I wonder if that had anything to do with abortion politics.
The worst was when leftists called Kavanaugh a "cry baby." And look at all the "cry baby" rhetoric on this thread.
Feminist to manly man: "Be more sensitive! You're toxic."
Feminist to girlie man: "Cry baby! Cry baby!"
Let's face it, feminists don't like men, regardless of what they say or do.
And of course you don't like babies. That's why abortion is a thing, you hate the needy and the helpless.
And our Inga is the textbook feminist. Althouse would have to invent her character if she didn't already exist.
"Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist."
Bad link to the previous post. It is: https://althouse.blogspot.com/2019/01/these-strong-claimscultural-marxism-sjw.%E2%80%A6
It should be: https://althouse.blogspot.com/2019/01/these-strong-claimscultural-marxism-sjw.html
Problem is, people who use the term 'toxic masculinity' think there is no other kind. The label is inherently perjorative.
"Anyone else get a whiff of the dear departed Chuck from that one?"
I got a wiff of teenage desperation
Ann, how is it not racist that every man who is bad in the ad is white and every many who is good is a racial minority?
Not to mention that statistically, that's a practically Stalinist rewriting of the realities of sexual harassment, let alone sexual violence, if one dares to consider the statistical truth.
There is a negative or toxic side to all ideologies. People have to able to more or less objectively look at themselves, their beliefs, their tribes and realize some of that stuff isn't good. There is a tendency for others to take advantage, paint everyone that way, globalize our worst side. But if anyone wants to evolve or change they have to be able to see themselves with greater honesty.
WT, what you said here is right and good.
Let me also add that some ideologies are way worse than other ideologies. Nazism, Communism, slavery, to name a few. Communism murdered the most, because it was the nicest-sounding ideology, and many (clueless) liberals didn't want to pay attention to what was really going on.
Nazism and slavery were awful ideologies that are obviously awful. They are awful precisely because they take a significant portion of human beings and define them as non-persons. This is not a trivial thing. It's an evil fucking thing.
Feminism is killing innocent people, little babies, in the same fashion. You don't want to believe it or think about it, fine. You can read it in The New York Times in 2049. But let me point out that an ideology that champions one part of humanity--women--and doesn't give a shit about anybody who doesn't fit in that category, is very likely going to run into the same sorts of moral blind spots that white people in the South had in the 19th century, or Germans had in the 20th century.
I would urge you to reject the feminist label and start thinking of yourself as a humanist. You might start by watching the documentary, The Red Pill. The artist who made it, Cassie Jaye, started off as a feminist and by the end of her film-making, she became a humanist.
Why did she become a humanist? Maybe because she realized that this rag-tag group of male complainers sounded an awful lot like a male version of feminists.
You can watch the trailer for her movie here. It's an eye-opening experience.
So Winters Tale is a Leftist female.
Cataloguing that so I can properly discount future contributions.
And that is how you make an ambivalent statement, just like toxic masculinity.
"...you aren't ready."...
Back to the indoctrination center for you.
WintersTale said...
Crybaby conservatism
Asshole leftism.
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