"In 418, after Emperor Honorius demanded action when people calling themselves Pelagians rioted in Rome, Pope Zosimus declared Pelagianism heretical. For those in power, a doctrine that persuaded the mass of ordinary Christians that they were unworthy, powerless supplicants, both temporally and spiritually, was useful.... But Pelagius has had the last laugh, in the liberal, humanist culture of western Europe today. Generally, we believe in free will, in the perfectibility of mankind, in the ability of people to make the right choices, do good, and to make things better ... Many contemporary clerics in Christian churches in the West could fairly be called Pelagians...."
From
"How Pelagius’s philosophy of free will shaped European culture/Like the rebel theologian, we believe in the perfectibility of mankind, the ability of people to make the right choices, do good and make things better" (New Statesman America).
ADDED: The question of free will is important, but I'm interested in the form of fat-shaming in the 5th century. Here's a picture of the "huge, bloated Alpine dog, weighed down with Scottish oats":
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in the perfectibility of mankind,
Yes, we have spent the past century or so working on that problem, and no more than a couple three or four hundred million violent deaths!
Thurber said the Alpine St. Bernards ate any skiiers they found and celebrated afterwards with brandy.
Free will gives man total responsability. God’s choice proclaimed by Paul is still Christianity. God chose to sacrifice his Son Jesus. There is no free will in that Atonement, thank God..
"Generally, we believe in free will, in the perfectibility of mankind, in the ability of people to make the right choices, do good, and to make things better"
Which one of these things is not like the others?
I am not sure who believes in the perfectability of man, but those people are wrong.
Limited resources and unlimited wants and needs - that I believe.
Our Elites are all Pelagians, without a doubt. And alas they found their perfection with their mini-skirts half a century ago. Every year since the Sixties had been a self congratulation of their achieving that Haughty Perfection: free of bad habits and questionable practices.
Those of us who came after (and having slightly more humility) are less agog at their self analysis.
Augustine 1, Pelagius 0
"Generally, we believe in free will, in the perfectibility of mankind, in the ability of people to make the right choices, do good, and to make things better ... Many contemporary clerics in Christian churches in the West could fairly be called Pelagians."
In other words, they are close to secular humanists, the second type of atheism in John Gray's book on Seven Types of Atheism. He calls secular humanism a "sacred relic" and raises a question or two about the "perfectibility of mankind."
Augustine wrote a letter, and you wouldn't believe what happened next.
The portraitist subtracted 20 pounds from his subject. It was a well-know technique of flattery.
@all comments above ...
How does Augustine square with freewill and self-government which I believe is the American experiment?
"It was a well-know technique of flattery."
I could certainly use some help to make me look flatter.
Is losing weight part of the perfectibility of man? Gluttony used to be considered a cardinal sin. We have since perfected our beliefs and now know that fat shaming is the real sin.......One of the early Church fathers (Tertullian?) claimed that one of the pleasures that the elect in heaven enjoyed was watching the torments of the damned. That seems rather ghastly and unChristian, but he was a Church father, so what do I know. I do think, however, that it would be really neat if God with impartiality and wisdom kept score and that, at the end, we could know how everyone scored.......I've taken the liberty of preparing a power point demonstration of how God with an economy of effort could reward me for my moral grandeur and visit a just punishment on some of those venal models and movie stars who were guilty of fat shaming,
"Augustine’s ally Saint Jerome abused Pelagius intemperately as a 'huge, bloated Alpine dog, weighed down with Scottish oats."
The Beatles were bigger than Saints Augustine and Jerome.
"'I Dig a Pygmy', by Charles Hawtrey and the Deaf Aids... Phase One, in which Doris gets her oats!"
@Narayanan The balance of powers in the constitution seems intended to counter the depravity of mankind. Rather than being based on an optimistic view of human potential, the balance of powers strikes me as quite the opposite.
Aspersions from that era were much more colorful that those of modern times. Rabelais was, of course, a master but Luther's remarks about the Pope were also classic. I'd like to see more creativity with insults today.
Well, actually, Pelagius had his revenge quite some time ago. In the reaction against the Reformers of various stripes (Jansenius, Luther, Calvin), all of whom harkened back to a fairly-hard line Augustinian view of justification, the Catholic Church "softened" its views & became, very quietly, Semi-Pelagian. On the Protestant side, in the reaction against Calvinism that later informed the Methodism of the Wesley Brothers, semi-Pelagianism comes into play via the influence of Arminianism.
A wonderful book on the Catholic Church's slide into semi-Pelagianism after the Jansenist controversy is Leslek Kolakowski's God Owes Us Nothing.
Since, as I believe, Augustine was spot-on about theology, how is it that the RCC, who claims him, has veered so far from his teachings?
Scottish Oats -- It's the right thing to do, and a delicious way to do it.
Young Hegelian answers my question while I was still typing it! ;-)
This can't go well, any attempt by AA at theology, ever. Of course, any intelligent and honest discussion of Pelagianism would include some accurate description of what it is -- and what it is not is the concept of free will, which Augustine taught extensively and has been central to Catholic doctrine since the beginning.
I'm with Narayanan Subramanian: for those of you reacting to the quoted piece's lefty author: Are you really embracing Augustine's rigid predestination vs Pelagius's doctrine of free will and individual responsibility. Certainly, Augustine was a guiding light (via Calvin) for some of America's founders (e.g. Cotton Mather and his ilk), but his contemporary heirs are mostly the controlling busybodies on the left. Perhaps you are; some of you all are scary.
Unknown said...
"@Narayanan The balance of powers in the constitution seems intended to counter the depravity of mankind."
"But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions."
https://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm
On the Protestant side, in the reaction against Calvinism that later informed the Methodism of the Wesley Brothers, semi-Pelagianism comes into play via the influence of Arminianism.
Yes. It is fascinating to read ongoing correspondence between Wesley and the great evangelist, George Whitefield, on these matters. While friends, they disagreed strongly about justification. Any time Pelagianism creeps in, God's sovereignty seeps out.
As multiple people have already correctly pointed out, the possession of free will in no way implies the ability and willingness to make good choices, let alone to make the best choice.
Modern "Elites" are semi-Pelegian, they believe that they "make good choices". The rest of us? We make "bad choices", which is why the EU is ruled by "the elite", not by vulgar democracy. Which is why 5 left-wing "Justices" get to use a "Living Constitution" to force their beliefs on the rest of us.
The US Founding Fathers were not idiots, and therefore were not Pelegian. They set up rival branches, with the ability to "check and balance" each other, and specifically limited the Federal Gov't powers to those powers that were explicitly granted it, all to restrain powerful people exercising the free will.
@mockturle,
Since, as I believe, Augustine was spot-on about theology
Because Augustine was one Church Father among many, and, while pre-eminent in the West, he was not so in the East. The process of "softening up" the hard-line interpretation of Augustine's views on justification was ongoing even among the medieval scholastics. Thomas, while hard-line enough, "softens" from Augustine.
You see Augustine as "spot-on" because you emphasize the same aspects of his theory of justification as did the Reformers. Needless to say, the RCC had condemned some of those hard-line teachings (e.g. double predestination) hundreds of years before Calvin. The RCC had always tap danced around the "Calvinist" side of Augustine. By the time of the Jansenist controversy, it, with the help of the Jesuits such as Luis De Molina, made the "softening" more or less official.
If you think that Augustine supports the Calvinist TULIP, well, okay. But the there's not a point of the TULIP that the RCC agrees with. Not one.
The modern Elect (excuse me Elite) seem like the very model of Augustinianism. There are the Elect and the Preterite, the woke and the deplorable, the saved and the unsaved, the Democrats and the Republicans, the rulers and the ruled. Manichean dualism all the way.
But the there's not a point of the TULIP that the RCC agrees with. Not one.
And I would say that is because the Church [RCC] wants control in their own hands, not in God's. BTW, I am not a hard-core Calvinist but I do believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation. We simply cannot save ourselves.
The modern Elect (excuse me Elite) seem like the very model of Augustinianism
The modern elites believe that God, not humanity, is the source of evil, that humanity can create paradise on its own and thus has no use for God, and especially has no use for Christ on the Cross, that there is no such thing as "sin," and that truth is relative. All of which are anti-Augustinian.
I do believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation. We simply cannot save ourselves.
The Holy Catholic Church believes that too. Always has.
You know, mockturtle, this anti-Catholic side of you has always been quite unattractive and unbecoming of you.
We simply cannot save ourselves.
The RCC never thought we could. Nor did Pelagius, BTW.
The Church believes in the mystery of the Atonement, with the foremost Catholic theologian on the subject being St. Anselm. But, the Catholic Church also believes that Jesus Christ died for all men, not just the elect, and that God's grace co-operates with the free human will in the on-going human process of individual salvation.
I think your admiration for Calvin blinds you to just how strange & well, fucking weird, his doctrines of justification are in the history of Christian theology.
The modern elites believe that God, not humanity, is the source of evil, that humanity can create paradise on its own and thus has no use for God, and especially has no use for Christ on the Cross, that there is no such thing as "sin," and that truth is relative. All of which are anti-Augustinian.
But that's just doctrine, scratch the surface and they're hard core Puritans.
@mockturtle,
Also, there is a concomitant "softening" in Lutheran theology, too. The later Luther of the Table Talks is fairly close to Calvin in his views on justification. But, in the later 16th C Articles of Concord, Phillippe Melancthon deliberately purges out some of the Calvinism that snuck in, and in the process, swings Lutheran doctrine on justification much closer back to the RCC's interpretation than Calvin's.
Mark sez: You know, mockturtle, this anti-Catholic side of you has always been quite unattractive and unbecoming of you.
Well, Mark, you just keep playing with your beads, praying to saints and worshipping the Queen of Heaven and don't be concerned with my lack of comeliness. ;-)
The Althouse comment section on theological posts is a great demonstration of the extreme improbability of a Christian theocratic takeover of the US (contra the fever dreams of the left who see Christians as an undifferentiated mass). It's wonderful the see the Catholics, the magisterial Protestants, and the second great awakening types all start throwing elbows.
The Althouse comment section on theological posts is a great demonstration of the extreme improbability of a Christian theocratic takeover of the US (contra the fever dreams of the left who see Christians as an undifferentiated mass). It's wonderful the see the Catholics, the magisterial Protestants, and the second great awakening types all start throwing elbows.
It was never God's plan to install a theocratic state [until after the Second Coming]. Rather like His muddling of the languages after the tower of Babel, diversification prevents political power from overriding the spiritual power of the true church.
With most fatties, the robes and loose clothing hide the weight.
This guy seems to be no different. Plus, artists were paid to make the subjects look as good as possible.
A good place to start a Christian theological discussion is to ask what God's purpose was in the incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In post-Christian Europe that seems to be regarded as silly.
@Ficta,
It's wonderful the see the Catholics, the magisterial Protestants, and the second great awakening types all start throwing elbows.
Just make sure what's on the agenda before accepting any invitations from us here to come over for a "barbecue". And if the song that's playing when you show up is "C'mon, Baby, Light My Fire" --- RUN!!!!!!
If you believe in the perfectability of mankind, you are not part of the reality-based community.
Of course people can make right choices.
And if we just limit their choices, coerce them enough, apply enough pressure, punish wrong thinking, ostracize the obstreperous, and gulagize the vocal, then we'll finally achieve heaven* on earth.
*For certain measures of heaven.
I have no idea what the perfected man would be, but I bet it includes seeing yourself as perfected, which most of us would conclude makes you far less than perfect. You just can't win at being perfect. I should know if anyone does.
Everytime we get a "perfected man" they end up being a real motherfucker, and that ain't perfect.
Ficta said...
"I'm with Narayanan Subramanian: for those of you reacting to the quoted piece's lefty author: Are you really embracing Augustine's rigid predestination vs Pelagius's doctrine of free will and individual responsibility."
Well. I've studied Boethius so I'm not conflicted on this point.
BTW, I don't know if Augustine's the best guy to be around for "fat shaming". Tradition has it he was quite the lard-ass in his later years.
Generally, we believe in free will,
Generally, people believe in their own magical wonderfulness.
@mockturtle & various
***Any time Pelagianism creeps in, God's sovereignty seeps out.***
Am I correct to take God's sovereignty = who gets admission into heaven.
Along same line for USA immigration, sovereignty etc.
Pelagianism = open border?
Please enlighten me on this.
@rusty,
Well. I've studied Boethius so I'm not conflicted on this point.
But, St. Thomas says in the Summa that according to Boethius, the argument from authority is the weakest form of argument.**
**That passage in the Summa is considered one of the finest examples of a Scholastic knee-slapper.
How to square 1A & 2A freedom based on freewill with sweeping and immoderate "depravity of mankind".
How come nobody lists most potent check of all ... Electorate throw the bums out?
@NS,
How to square 1A & 2A freedom based on freewill with sweeping and immoderate "depravity of mankind".
It can be done, as the histories of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, Scotland, & Switzerland show.
Remember, the political leadership themselves are not immune to the "Total Depravity" that afflicts mankind, & they must live lives of complete moral probity as befits one of the elect. All must live up to a moral code beyond the reach of any politician to change.
There is a strain of "But, Who Watches the Watchmen?" in much Reform theory of the state, & that strain can easily support First & Second Amendment privileges for the populace.
Pelagius was a Sith Lord, right?
Uber drivers are perfected men because Nietzsche.
Beware pelagic preditors
After it's thrown, the rock thinks it's free. Predestination or free will?
I wonder what Saint Jerome thought about high-fructose corn syrup? Those low-carb people can be quite sanctimonious.
The class of people that is worse than these religious idiots/child molesters are hunters and trappers. All of whom are sociopathic sadists. They get their jollies murdering wildlife of all kinds. They will lie that it's for food. Don't believe them! It is psychosexual sadism at its sickest. I have no doubt that they masturbate when a broadhead arrow kills a majestic elk, and they relive it while watching their homemade snuff film. It's high time that this evil is outlawed.
Trumpit.
How long did you let your mother suffer before you got her medical help?
Rusty: cut it out you know damn well that trumpits mother begged the doctors to kill her because of her cancer pain and to get away from her crazy children
"How long did you let your mother suffer before you got her medical help?"
Rusty, My mother was murdered in a Santa Monica hospital on 4-15-12 by doctors and nurses. It was by intentional morphine overdose. Please contact the SMPD to reopen the file of her case that the police refused to investigate at all because it took place in a hospital. The detectives are pigs. I'm sure that with your clout, and your redneck banana fides, the police will finally get going on the case.
Howard, Your comment is deplorable and so are you. You're the big pain in the ass.
In general, the Left has almost no understanding of Christianity in general and particularly the smorgasbord of Protestant faiths.
Julian the Apostate believed that all he need do is not jail the feuding and rioting Christians to let them destroy themselves.
This really is in stark contrast to Maggie Atwood and her ridiculous take on Christianity. It speaks heavily to how insular and enemy creating Feminism is as a doctrine...though oddly friendly to Islam these days...because when we think Feminism, we HAVE to think principles /s
After it's thrown, the rock thinks it's free.
When a whale jumps completely out of the water it is said to have "free willy".
Man is not perfectable. Only a fool would think so.
When a whale jumps completely out of the water it is said to have "free willy".
LOL! :-D
Free Will makes you the responsible party in the transaction. That works the best in Democratic community. But it leaves your listeners without Christ's grace from your Christian teaching. Maybe that is the goal. Now go out there and fight harder to make responsible decisions. No easy and light yokes for you.
Mockturtle, including a wink-and-a-smile doesn't excuse you from continuing in your purposeful misunderstanding of the communion of saints and Mary's unique role.
Since it never hurts to review: the saints (even Mary!) have no power of their own. We pray for their intercession; that is, we ask them to pray for us. They're already in heaven, so they're better able to put in a good word for us with the Boss. Have you never paid attention to the words of the Hail, Mary? "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."
Since God is outside of time, there is no contradiction between God's omniscience and free will. (Just because God knows what we will choose to do doesn't mean He's causing us to make that choice.) I'm with TradGuy that free will makes us the responsible party, but I don't see how that leaves us without Christ's grace. Grace is freely given to all who have made the choice to ask for it. In some cases, grace is bestowed when others have asked for it, like when a baby is baptized.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I Timothy 2:5.
Pelagius was absolutely addicted to Scottish oats, there was nothing he could do. Of all people, surely Augustine could understand that.
Trumpit said...
"How long did you let your mother suffer before you got her medical help?"
Rusty, My mother was murdered in a Santa Monica hospital on 4-15-12 by doctors and nurses. It was by intentional morphine overdose. Please contact the SMPD to reopen the file of her case that the police refused to investigate at all because it took place in a hospital. The detectives are pigs. I'm sure that with your clout, and your redneck banana fides, the police will finally get going on the case.
Waited too long ,huh.
You were afraid of her, weren't you.
Mockturtle quoted, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Yes! That's why we ask the members of the communion of saints for their prayers. Have you ever prayed for anyone? Has anyone ever prayed for you? By what reason are the souls in heaven deprived of their ability to pray for others? They have no need to pray for themselves any longer since they are in perfect union with God.
Sorry, Joan, but I'm not buying it.
Thanks, mockturtle. I figured it wouldn't hurt to try. Here's a nice PDF with the references to scripture supporting the communion of saints.
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