The Florida Election should be called in favor of Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis in that large numbers of new ballots showed up out of nowhere, and many ballots are missing or forged. An honest vote count is no longer possible-ballots massively infected. Must go with Election Night!— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 12, 2018
This is very close to the argument the lawyers for George W. Bush made, repeatedly and sternly, after the 2000 election. I remember it drove me crazy at the time. I'd voted for Al Gore, and I kept hoping the count would come out my way. But I must say that, unlike a lot of people who wanted Gore, once the Supreme Court gave the opinion that shut down further recounting, I accepted the result and regarded George W. Bush as the legitimately elected President of the United States. It has always bothered me that other people didn't do that.
Anyway, of course the side that's sitting on the higher total is going to insist we've gone far enough, but one of the strongest arguments against recounting is that conditions are such that the recount will be less accurate than the first count, and at least the first count was done before it was known how many votes the erstwhile loser needed to find to flip the result. In the 2000 election, there were punch cards with incompletely punched holes and the handling of the ballots seemed as though it could change the degree of detachment of the "chads." That created a tremendous amount of anxiety about human tampering that made the machine's first reading of the cards feel superior (except to the extent that one simply wanted, as I did, the other candidate to win).
So Trump is making a strong argument, stoking worries that human beings are tampering and interfering and a changed result will be a less accurate result. Of course, that's the argument of choice for the side that won the first count. It's hard to believe anyone who's hoping for a flip will stand down.
Posts
156 comments:
"stoking worries that human beings are tampering and interfering and a changed result will be a less accurate result"
He's not stoking. It seems to be happening. They are finding "only Democrat" votes all over the place. Funny how that is the only way it ever happens.
So Trump is making a strong argument, stoking worries that human beings are tampering and interfering and a changed result will be a less accurate result.
There are "worries that human beings are tampering and interfering" because that is what all the evidence suggests is going on. Why else defy a court order?
If it's okay with you, Althouse, that Democrat officials can pick and choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, how about me. Do I get to pick and choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, too? Or is it the position of a Wisconsonite that such privilege only extends to Democrats?
"So Trump is making a strong argument, stoking worries that human beings are tampering and interfering and a changed result will be a less accurate result."
Those aren't "human beings", those are Florida Democrats. Their touch is corruption.
No fair! You changed the outcome my measuring it!
The fact that in these situations recounting seems to always heavily favor Democrats doesn't speak well of the legitimacy of the process. That plus the history of that Broward county election official should do more than raise of few skepitical eyebrows.
"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin
In 2000 the quants made strong arguments that a manual recount would be less accurate than a machine recount. Once Bush won the machine recount, anything after that would simply introduce more error. There was no way to improve the accuracy of the election after that. There were lots of ways to degrade the accuracy of the election, and the Gore team chose one of them -- to only recount in heavily democratic districts.
Interesting that he kept his powder dry until now. Anyone who assumes there is no plan or weighed intent hasn't been paying attention the last few years.
Trump is right--after so much handling, a reliable recount is physically impossible. But it makes me uncomfortable to have the president making that argument on twitter. Rick Scott can and should fight for every inch, but the sitting president should not get involved except to issue vague hopes that democracy will prevail.
As in 2000, certain FL counties aren't following the state election laws. Then, the FL Supremes tried to change the laws and standards after the election, which from the US Constitution must be set by the state legislature.
How about just following the law? There is an automatic recount if the outcome is within a certain percent. That is the case here.
I didn't like Bush or Gore, and the election felt like a big meh to me. It's funny, the treatment Bush received in Florida pushed me more to his side.
"Blogger Once written, twice... said...
How about just following the law? There is an automatic recount if the outcome is within a certain percent. That is the case here"
Coming from a Democrat, in this particular situation, that is comedy gold my friend.
"...stoking worries that human beings are tampering and interfering and a changed result will be a less accurate result."
A judge has already said that Broward violated the constitution and election law. Furthermore, Broward has a long and storied history of this kind of crap.
These are legit concerns. Stoke away Mr. President.
@ Bagoh - yesterday in another thread:
"Why do missing votes only show up in close races where it's the Democrat that needs them, and then mysteriously over-represent Democrat votes. If votes were legitimately lost and then found occasionally, it would happen in all kinds of races, close or not, and they would not always help the Democrats."
I don't understand why the Atty/Gen of FL isn't down there putting election officials under oath and questioning them. If you have to, for fairness sake, ask all the other people participating the same questions.
You only need a few to flip. If there is flipping to be done.
-XC
Trump is not making a "strong argument". Strong arguments are supported with facts. Trump is supporting his argument with baseless assertions (or to call it what it is, lies)
Freder, we have an affidavit from a Broward election employee who saw other staff filling out ballots. The employee reported it, and was instantly fired and told not to come back.
Is that the sort of facts you wish Trump had added to his tweet?
Interesting that he kept his powder dry until now.
He's letting them have plenty of rope.
How about following the law. Manufacturing ballots under cover of darkness is illegal.
I mean, given that there are at least these two true stories:
1. At least 20 invalid ballots were deliberately injected into the valid ballot total.
2. Democrats refused entry to third party and Republican poll watchers while damaged ballots were recreated.
I see no way a recount can be trusted to be as accurate or more accurate than the previous count. Which may also mean the previous count isn't accurate, but at least it is inaccurate in a way that doesn't have someone's thumb on the scale.
All ballots have a chain of custody. Any break in that chain automatically removes accuracy. If I had to guess, there are multiple breaks in the security of ballots, and gross incompetence by election workers. All of these should automatically nullify any votes and those that were disenfranchised might pay a little attention to those that collect their votes.
@tim maguire, because it’s Trump’s party, and he’s going to fight fof people in his party.
Matthew - the "20" number is a diversion.
They manufactured thousands of ballots.
Cheating is OK when you're fighting evil Trump.
Right, but we can prove the 20, and it is a Fact, which defeats the "there are no facts!" argument. We can infer more, and once the investigation is finalized we may prove it. But, I can say without fear of being wrong that the vote count is being tampered with.
Recounts are required by Florida law for margins this close. Why don't we ... you know, follow the law? THAT was Bush's argument in 2000 -- that we'd followed the law, done the recounts mandated by law (or allowed by it) and that it was extralegal for the Democrats to initiate a third recount not provided for.
Matthew- yes - the vote count was tampered with.
Mike: Was it within the recount threshold BEFORE Broward ignored multiple laws and deadlines?
Bush actually won by more votes, after the media and hoards of "we'll prove it Gore really won!" went digging for months. They came up short and the story died.
The media still pimped the impressions that shaped a lot of Bush-hate.
I seem to remember something in the Bush v. Gore decision where the Supreme court insisted that the decision can not be used as precedent under normal rules of Stare Decisis. What will the courts do?
In my own opinion when there are irregularities like this, they should be decided against the perceived interest of those in charge of administering the voting district, when there is either negligence or outright malfeasance that can be traced to those administering the district. Will this disenfranchise some legitimately cast ballots, probably. But every illegitimately cast ballot disenfranchises someone who did vote legitimately and voted for the other guys. And the local administers are the ones in control so have to most ability to affect the election.
Recounts are required by Florida law for margins this close.
Satan's trick was getting the margin that close. And by Satan, I mean the lying cheating Democrat scum election officials.
Trump is not making a strong argument, he is making a strongman argument that procedures should not be followed. Although I disagreed with Althouse she used to be on the side of law but Trump’s thuggishness seems to have infected her. She and the conservative commenters also seem to only be listening to tainted prejudiced information sources as to what is going on. To say I am disappointed is an understatement. Trump’s constant lies has infected the conservative side so much they have their own set of fantasy facts that support whatever they want to believe.
One more thing that liberals are doing without thinking about the consequences. I don't know if there was voter fraud - how could I know from this distance? But I do know that it looks real bad. 538 had a whole article on how weird these new ballots look - without mentioning a single word about fraud. Half the country knows that it looks real bad, and is angry and frustrated about their helplessness.
The other half _should_ be trying to clear this up. They should be agreeing that it looks bad, and insisting that there needs to be clarity in order for these new votes to count. They should be agreeing that the burden of proof is on them.
If Gillum and Scott cared about this country, they would be saying right now that they hold to their concessions unless there is clear proof that this was done honestly.
But that half of the country wants the result more than they care about the consequences. They aren't thinking about the damage this causes. You can't have a democracy where people don't trust the ones who count the votes.
Gary: You know the WaPo and Broward County have both acknowledged they mixed invalid with valid ballots and have no other explanation besides "Whoops!" Would you say that Broward County is prejudiced against itself?
Let me just put this out there:
If a less than 1% difference triggers a recount, and the recount results in a change of .5%, you have a fundamentally flawed voting process.
Think about that for a second: a .5% change in voting totals would represent that 1/200 votes is counted wrong.
It's the year 2018 and we have regulated banking systems handling millions or billions of transactions/votes everyday with amazing audit trails, confirmations/checks, and nearly unmeasurable rates of error. We call this "daily life"
Yet in our most sacred of responsibilities we consider UP TO 1% margin of error to be normal?
....
If nothing else when a recount is triggered you should immediately make changes in the staff and oversight personnel and those changes should not be known as to who is going where. A voting process should be unified within a state with consistent practices applied so that personnel and oversight can be moved in and out with little disruption or need to get up to speed.
I'm embarrassed right now for our country.
Post-election voting by democrat vote counters has been very effective. Republicans complain, but the results speak for themselves. Why would democrats ever stop the practice? Why wouldn't you get even more brazen?
There are currently 7 House races 'too close to call'. All the seats are currently held by republicans. I think we know how this shakes out.
I've never heard of a republican losing in election night, then having 'found votes' carry them to victory.
It is ironic that Trump’s argument is being made on Veterans’ Day that late arriving military votes not be counted.
"Trump is making a strong argument"
Now you've done it, offending LLRs everywhere.
Jess said...
All ballots have a chain of custody. Any break in that chain automatically removes accuracy. If I had to guess, there are multiple breaks in the security of ballots, and gross malfeasance by election workers.
Fixed it for you.
"I didn't like Bush or Gore, and the election felt like a big meh to me. It's funny, the treatment Bush received in Florida pushed me more to his side."
That's because you're a right-wing hack and troll, @Bimbo. Bush and Cheney lied the country into Iraq War II, and a million dead. Weapons of Mass Destruction were their evil lies, and war profiteering.
Freder, we have an affidavit from a Broward election employee who saw other staff filling out ballots. The employee reported it, and was instantly fired and told not to come back.
Do you believe every bit of bullshit you read on the internet? First of all, even if you believe this, the incident was from 2016, not this year. It also occurred on October 31, 2016, which was nine days before the election. And yet with all this fuckery, Trump still won Florida
Gary, just so you know, military votes (at least, in every case I've ever heard of) are valid based on their postmark date, unless they're faxed/emailed. So, if they're receiving them after the deadline and they were not postmarked before the deadline, then... that just sucks, but a deadline is a deadline. It would be like if I showed up at my polling place today and asked for a ballot.
Now, if what is happening is valid votes that were received before the deadline and postmarked before the deadline are not being counted, then people in Broward County should be losing their jobs over this. So: Is it valid votes that are not being counted, or invalid votes?
"that half of the country wants the result more than they care about the consequences"
Right. Process doesn't matter. Rules don't matter. Law doesn't matter. Only tools that advance Dem power matter.
BAMN is the prog MO.
Freder best me to it. I’m glad I read all the comments before adding my own.
I am a partisan, who can ants the Republicans to win and n Florida. But Trump’s typical trashtalking Tweet isn’t particularly strong, and it isn’t even much of an argument, as those things go. It is a taunt, and a mere regurgitation of right-wing news.
If there is a good, strong, legally-based argument I’d be interested in reading about it. Trump added nothing in this instance. If Brit Hume or Jonah Goldberg or Matthew Continetti had issued this same Tweet, Althouse would not have blogged it. Obviously, the President’s words are more newsworthy just because of who he is. But the President’s arguments are not stronger because of who he is.
"Recounts are required by Florida law for margins this close. Why don't we ... you know, follow the law? THAT was Bush's argument in 2000 -- that we'd followed the law, done the recounts mandated by law (or allowed by it) and that it was extralegal for the Democrats to initiate a third recount not provided for."
The problem with a recount is that they really don't know what they are recounting - GIGO (Garbage In/Garbage Out). The chain of custody for a number of ballots was lost tge first day. Over and under votes were turned into valid votes without supervision, or indeed, Republican participation. (And in 2000 it very much looked like over-votes were created by election workers pushing a pin through the Gore hole in stacks of ballots). Plus, there is evidence that physical ballots were voted by Dem election workers. How is recounting going to help, with the underlying ballet pool appearing to have been tampered with, possibly massively? All it would do is count the on hand, many of which may be fraudulent. We don't know how many, just that there were fraudulent ballots added to the stack of valid ballets, and no way to separate them at this point.
I remember it drove me crazy at the time. I'd voted for Al Gore, and I kept hoping the count would come out my way.
It does seem like "Back to the Future" in Broward County.
TreeJoe said..
If nothing else when a recount is triggered you should immediately make changes in the staff and oversight personnel and those changes should not be known as to who is going where. A voting process should be unified within a state with consistent practices applied so that personnel and oversight can be moved in and out with little disruption or need to get up to speed.
TreeJoe? WHAT would be the Point of having a recount then?
When you do a recount, it is Imperative that recounting be ONLY done by Democrats, In SECRET; and ONLY in those counties where democrats are in control; otherwise, it's just a waste of time
Big Mike, he's the president of everybody
Freder, one can make a strong legal argument without reference to any facts at all. It is strong if it is legally sound. It's about the reasoning process, not the underlying facts, which are mostly not in dispute in this case anyway.
Bush and Cheney lied the country into Iraq War II
The idea that Saddam Hussein had WMD and was trying to increase his WMD capability was part of the National Intelligence Estimate since at least 1998. Yes the intelligence was wrong, but that doesn't mean it was part of some deceitful plot by Bush and Cheney. Even Bob Woodward in his book noted that Bush was very adamant on making sure the intelligence community backed up this assessment before going in. He was on the side of Colin Powell who also wanted as much certainty as possible.
Qwinn,
"We." Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Sheeesh.
Gary said...
"It is ironic that Trump’s argument is being made on Veterans’ Day that late arriving military votes not be counted."
Gary, why am I so confident that you just received that talking point in an e-mail from your handler?
Poor Trumpit - don't you need to get out with your antifa mask and your *break glass* hammer?
Election Worker Chelsey Smith Signs Sworn Legal Statement Alleging Broward County Elections Staff Were Filling In Ballots
T V D said...
The idea that Saddam Hussein had WMD and was trying to increase his WMD capability was part of the National Intelligence Estimate since at least 1998. Yes the intelligence was wrong, but that doesn't mean it was part of some deceitful plot by Bush and Cheney. Even Bob Woodward in his book noted that Bush was very adamant on making sure the intelligence community backed up this assessment before going in. He was on the side of Colin Powell who also wanted as much certainty as possible.
Shall we roll the tape of all the big-league democrats on board with that same Iraq intelligence assessment...
"Yes the intelligence was wrong,"
-- Saddam DID have some WMD. But they were mostly gas weapons/munitions, and nowhere near the scale of what either the media reported or what the administration actually claimed. There were no nuclear WMDs (the that the media harped on about dirty bombs, etc.), and not the high scale, large biological weapons that the government thought. Knowing the scale of the weapons he had, which we found out after going in, it is clear that his own hubris was a huge part of his downfall.
Empty ballot boxes found in rent-a-car trunk at airport.
Proof that National Democrats are involved in the fraud. Time to bring the FBI in.
Does it strain credulity for you, Ann, that re-counts always turn out in favor of Democrats? It does for me. One would anticipate that Republicans would win a few recounts -- especially in the case of Al Franken.
Trump’s constant lies has infected the conservative side so much they have their own set of fantasy facts that support whatever they want to believe.
Haha!, Good one! Titania worthy.
Matthew @ 10:11
Excellent. Gary probably won't answer.
In Washington state we have had many recounts.
Democrats ALWAYS have more votes afterwards.
This is not statistically possible if the process is fair.
Democrats are trying to steal the election in Florida. In other news, a bear shit in the woods.
It is funny Althouse brings up the Florida recount when Al Gore sent his lawyers to "review" the ballots of overseas soldiers and get as many disqualified for mismatched signatures and technicalities.
There are indeed sides and no, Democrats will not stand down. They have proven over and over they will do anything to get power over other people.
It is a common tactic of cowards to avoid the truth.
It is Veterans day and I am filled with sadness. So many people say they appreciate our service but it is a sham.
There are a huge number of Americans who are not worthy of the freedom they are given and other people died for.
They would sell that freedom merely so they don't have to feel anxious.
Freder: What's your point? The same people who tried to commit fraud in 2016 and fired an employee for reporting it are still in charge and failing to comply with the law in regards to being transparent about their recount. Why does it matter that it was before the election? Are you seriously arguing that because they didn't succeed in 2016, they can be trusted now?
Democrats ALWAYS have more votes afterwards.
This is not statistically possible if the process is fair.
Even if the first assertion is true, and I noticed you did not provide any evidence to support your assertion, why is the second true?
Aren't county election boards bipartisan?
Knowing the scale of the weapons he had, which we found out after going in, it is clear that his own hubris was a huge part of his downfall.
Honestly, I could see Saddam knowingly encouraging this idea. If other actors in the region think he has significant WMD capability, or at least think it is possibility, that gives him more bargaining power. In order for threats to work you must convince the threatened of two things, you have the capability of carrying out your threat, and you have the willingness to do so. Saddam's previous actions of the last several decades demonstrated his willingness, he just wanted to flush out the perceived capability side.
It makes me think of the scene in Big Fish where they rob the bank, and the teller takes them in to the vault and shows them there's no money. I just imagine Saddam telling the UN: Don't tell anyone, please?
Freder Frederson said...
Freder, we have an affidavit from a Broward election employee who saw other staff filling out ballots. The employee reported it, and was instantly fired and told not to come back.
Do you believe every bit of bullshit you read on the internet? First of all, even if you believe this, the incident was from 2016, not this year. It also occurred on October 31, 2016, which was nine days before the election. And yet with all this fuckery, Trump still won Florida
Democrats: There is no voter fraud!
Everyone else: We saw you filling out fake ballots.
Democrats: That was 2016. We totally didn't do that in 2018! Ignore those videos of truckloads of ballots.
Freder follows the big media lie: "You can't prove it."
Democracy dies in darkness.
If I throw one poisoned M&M in a big bowl, who is going to eat out of that bowl?
Once there is a taint in the chain of custody of ballots, who believes the count is true except Partisans for that party?
The 'fix' is simple: throw away all the ballots from Broward and Palm Beach Counties until the elected officials PROVE beyond a doubt that all the votes are legitimate.
The onus for committing a crime is to prove one committed a crime.
The onus on an accountant and an election official is you MUST be able to prove your work to any outside examination.
And if the people of Broward County and Palm Beach hate getting their votes thrown away, maybe they need to vote in better officials who aren't afraid to show their work.
The solution is, those counties that chose not to declare the number of ballots cast within 30 minutes of the close of the polls, have the number of cast ballots froze at what ever the last declared ballot count was.
Yes thousands of votes dont get recorded. Its a shame. The Voters of the counties have it in their power to elect a competent election official. They are not sure they can do the recount by the constitutional required time limit. Do not extend the time. throw all those votes out.
The final solution in Florida is the House of Representatives votes on which candidate gets forwarded to the certified result. Judges need to stay out of this, the House of Representatives need to let the counties know they are stepping in if deadlines get ignored. It is the politicians that have to constitutional power to act.
CNN is calling Rubio Putin's puppet.
What a sad joke CNN is.
Charles CW Cooke responds to CNN:
So, it’s Putin’s dream when our elections don’t run smoothly, but also Putin’s dream when people point out that our elections don’t run smoothly. That’s a rather convenient position.
Also from CW Cooke
I’ve yet to see a single national reporter/figure do anything but embarrass themself on this topic, unlike the local press here in Florida, which has been fair and informative and entirely non-partisan.
Aren't county election boards bipartisan?
You should get your own Netflix comedy special.
Even if the first assertion is true, and I noticed you did not provide any evidence to support your assertion, why is the second true?
Tough luck Feder it is true.
I've looked. You prove me wrong. Show all of those recounts where Republicans gained enough votes to overturn the election night call.
Its funny how you remember what you thought going back to Gore/Bush 2000. As a Nader voter I was agog at how quickly the democrats and their handmaidens in the press tossed aside all of the rules and procedures for handling ballots that were in place BEFORE the vote, just like now. Some things never change, eh?
Blogger Achilles said...
It is Veterans day and I am filled with sadness. So many people say they appreciate our service but it is a sham.
You didn't serve a purpose other than to be a brother to your unit, which there is no higher calling. That's gotta be enough. Plus, we are a capitalist free market entrepreneurial Juggernaut that hates to lose or tie.
The mission was fubar and only caused more death and destruction. Detachment from civilians is what you get with a professional army that doesn't draft from the full cross-section of society.
Freder Frederson said...
Democrats ALWAYS have more votes afterwards.
This is not statistically possible if the process is fair.
Even if the first assertion is true, and I noticed you did not provide any evidence to support your assertion, why is the second true?
It takes a special combination of mendacity and stupidity to type a response like this.
You just hope that if you keep pushing people will stop noticing what you are doing.
This is who all the cowards are supporting when they don't want to feel anxious.
Howard said...
You didn't serve a purpose other than to be a brother to your unit, which there is no higher calling. That's gotta be enough. Plus, we are a capitalist free market entrepreneurial Juggernaut that hates to lose or tie.
The mission was fubar and only caused more death and destruction. Detachment from civilians is what you get with a professional army that doesn't draft from the full cross-section of society.
I can accept that people don't want to fight.
Many can't. It is not their job. It is my job. Our job.
What I can't accept is people not taking responsibility for what they ask us to do.
People are on this thread bitching about Bush lying us into Iraq. People who voted for Obama and Hillary.
Obama and Hillary started more wars and got more people killed than Bush. And now they are on the same side as the neocons.
Fuck these people. Seriously fuck off.
The revised history of the Gore v Bush very much irritates me.
Technically SCOTUS stopped the state wide recount. In Part because the recount was not using the same standard across the entire state. Equal Protection.
The biggest revising of history is the Florida Supreme Court ordered the State wide recount that neither candidate wanted. The Florida Supreme Court was not acting as an appellet court and deciding a dispute between two parties. They declared from on high a state wide recount. The Florida Constitution offers no role for the Supreme court to involve themselves.
SCOTUS Stayed the lower court (Florida Supreme Court) and required the court to get back to SCOTUS with an explanation of where they found their jurisdiction to support their Judicial order.
Yes the courts were messing with the election, not SCOTUS
The Democrat shit storm that was the Kavanaugh confirmation, repeatedly used the 2000 SCOTUS ruling as an example of the politicization of SCOTUS. A lie, repeated by the Democrats and the media, without let up for 18 years now.
If you say anything CNN doesn't like - YOU ARE PUTIN'S PUPPET.
Democrats, run by the crooked Broward and Palm Beach county folks, are trying to do what they did in 2000 - count votes in their districts until their canddiates are winning and then stop. Even worse, the Broward county folks, who are both corrupt and incompetent, refused to say how many ballots they had, have been busted faking ballots, couned votes by non-citizens and counted "new" ballots, and refused to allow observers from the campaigns- all in violation of the Florida law and court orders. How these folks are allowed to continue is insane. They need to be locked up immediately.
Chuck said...
Freder best me to it. I’m glad I read all the comments before adding my own.
I am a partisan, who can ants the Republicans to win and n Florida. But Trump’s typical trashtalking Tweet isn’t particularly strong, and it isn’t even much of an argument, as those things go. It is a taunt, and a mere regurgitation of right-wing news.
You are more honest when you post under the other name.
Politically, the Florida legislature must not have been able to do anything. Now is the time to appoint a Special Prosecutor to deal with election fraud.
GRW3
I welcome someone explaining the constitutional role of the Florida House of Representative in the final say to certifying the vote count. My understanding is they are the firewall to a fair election. A political solution so the voters can judge accordingly at the ballot box. Judicial interference separates the voters from their power.
How about just following the law? There is an automatic recount if the outcome is within a certain percent. That is the case here"
Since local Dems already broke the law [by, for example, refusing to report the number of uncounted ballots] following the law is no longer an option.
Blogger Achilles said...
What I can't accept is people not taking responsibility for what they ask us to do.
Yes. My votes for Obozo were in direct response for the guilt for voting Bush in twice. That turned out to be just as fucked up. Just be happy you are only labeled a ptsd psycho-killer rather than a babykiller like the Vietnam guys.
From the NYT archives, 11/12/2001
"The comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots solidifies George W. Bush's legal claim on the White House because it concludes that he would have won under the ground rules prescribed by the Democrats."
and
"Had the analysis concluded that under every conceivable circumstance, Mr. Gore would have triumphed under a statewide recount, or that there had been fraud or other mischief, the Democrats would have had reason to speak out today. But it found that even if the Supreme Court had not stepped in to block a statewide manual recount, Mr. Bush would have won."
If you find this inconvenient, the archive is a short search away. Check for yourself.
Just be happy you are only labeled a ptsd psycho-killer rather than a babykiller like the Vietnam guys.
Back in the day, I got to be called a babykiller even though I served in the Navy in the North Atlantic.
Ballot procedures have not been observed that the most charitable take, the ballots found at the fort Lauderdale airport avis good grief.
If the counties are done adding votes, then the machine recount this week will show the same totals posted at the deadline Saturday, give or take around 200-400 votes. The counties are supposed to be done adding votes at this point except for overseas ballots which in an election this size will not be more 2000 votes total for the entire state, and almost surely under a 1000.
However, I think it probable the two recalcitrant counties will add votes to their machine recounts and the two together will show at least 50,000 new ballots that they didn't show in their tallies from Saturday. This, of course, will be fraud, but here is the problem Scott will face- the county officials are in charge of all the ballots, including all the unvoted ones. Good luck proving fraud unless someone steps forward as a whistleblower. That was the problem since late Tuesday night- by not reporting a total vote number, the county officials were free to make up whatever number they wanted to between then and now.
When you look at the way the elections are run, the only thing that seems to prevent fraud is the honesty of the officials in each of the counties in Florida. That was why the election night report of total vote was so important- it provides a self-reported value that limits dishonesty. You explain to me any other reason for not reporting that number at 7:30 p.m. on Tuesday. There isn't an honest one.
I've just witnessed a bunch of liberals in my office arguing strenuously that "the rules are the rules and you can't change them after the fact!"
The context was hockey.
When it comes to elections, these same people would insist changing the rules after an election to "make sure every vote (for Democrats) is counted!"
Consistency and intellectual honesty are clearly not required to be a liberal.
The public was supposed to know, at 7:30 p.m. on Tuesday exactly how many of the ballots each county in Florida used in the vote. We know this number for 65 out of 67 counties, and we knew it on Tuesday evening if you knew where to look for it. Even now we don't know that number for Palm Beach and Broward County- they have yet to account for their ballot totals- this is why I expect to see their tallies be the only ones in the state to show more than 1000 vote increase in total vote from Saturday's deadline- were they planning to not add significant numbers, they would have finally supplied the required number before the deadline Saturday.
There won't be a whistleblower in 2018 because the one from 2016 was fired.
Freder thinks that supports his position.
Howard said...
Blogger Achilles said...
What I can't accept is people not taking responsibility for what they ask us to do.
Yes. My votes for Obozo were in direct response for the guilt for voting Bush in twice. That turned out to be just as fucked up. Just be happy you are only labeled a ptsd psycho-killer rather than a babykiller like the Vietnam guys.
I never personally killed a baby. But they did die in the vicinity.
Drone strikes on vehicles were particularly nasty. People crawling away from vehicles burning to death are the norm. Families seem to like vehicles.
I hated drone strikes on vehicles.
They were Obama's favorite activity.
I have been called a baby killer by the same fucking shitheads that are trying to steal elections now. People like Synema in Arizona who actually said it was ok to join our enemies.
We did our best to do the right thing. Some of us died because of the choices that were made to avoid civilian casualties. Whatever.
I don't mind being called a baby killer. Shit happened and happens.
What I do mind is the utter hypocrisy and cowardice of the average American citizen today.
Everyone has their fucking hand out. They want their SS. They want their medicare. they want their reparations. They want their fucking mocha.
Mostly it is that they don't want to take responsibility for anything.
They should be shipped to Afghanistan where people didn't die for their freedom until they respect it.
Then we need to put people who try to steal elections in jail. Because that is better than they deserve.
My votes for Obozo were in direct response for the guilt for voting Bush in twice.
@Howard, you actually think Gore or Kerry would have been better presidents than Dubya? Not hardly!
If you wanted Obamacare to be implemented successfully then I hope you voted for Romney in 2012.
Stoking worries?
Confirmation. Again.
Big Mike said...
My votes for Obozo were in direct response for the guilt for voting Bush in twice.
@Howard, you actually think Gore or Kerry would have been better presidents than Dubya? Not hardly!
If you wanted Obamacare to be implemented successfully then I hope you voted for Romney in 2012.
Romney is and was a piece of crap. Gore. Kerry. Bush. Clinton. McCain. Dole. Obama. Clinton.
What. The. Fuck.
Both party's leaders should be put on a spit and roasted over a low fire.
Trump better start getting to work on putting all of these dirt bags in jail.
First, it would have been just deserts if Souter had cast the deciding vote costing Bush-II the Presidency. The Souter nomination was the dirtiest deal #FakeCon George Bush ever pulled us.
Second, how can anyone believe that mumbo-jumbo about SCOTUS justices "reading the Constitution and coming to an objective decision based on its meaning" after Bush v. Gore?
The Liberals all voted to help Gore, and the Conservatives all voted to help Bush. Objectively, the conservatives had the better case, of course. At least their ruling was "tethered to the Constitution". The 4 liberals just ignored election law and everything else to give Gore the win.
I know this is a crazy idea, but how about we just follow the law. Not let the lawyers play law games, but follow the clear, simple law. If the law says there are deadline, then there are deadlines. No acts of god preventing it then follow the law, period. Isn't there a reason we have laws, or are they just suggestions? Why are Democrats always wanting to ignore the law? It's their standard position of nearly every issue.
executive orders
immigration
voting
free speech
2nd Amendment
IRS screwing conservative groups
racial discrimination on campus
Title 9 abuse without due process
and on and on.
All this Florida crap just shows - once again - how fucking stupid the Republicans are.
How many elections do the Democrats steal before they stop making jokes about "dead people in Chicago" voting and start using their political power to reduce electoral fraud?
How many illegals voted in Florida? How many Democrats double voted in say Florida and NY? How many Dems used the mail ballots to vote twice?
(eaglebeak)
The obvious problem with the "recount" is that it seems to be a new count--the "hey, look what I just found in my car" count.
I think the same issue obtained in 2000.
If you can just keep counting ... and counting ... and counting--there's a problem, in Florida at least. Even if you call it a recount, it's still a problem. Certainly in Florida.
In Florida, when you see a box marked "Provisional Ballots" in the trunk, it means "If We Need Them Ballots." In big cities in the North (NYC, Boston, Chicago), the SOP would be that just before closing, the local Dem chieftain would call the polling place and asked the Dem poll workers, "how many do we need?" Maybe the poll workers weren't supposed to know--but they did.
Then the Dems would vote the names of the dead, or those who had moved, or those who simply hadn't voted, up to the level of what they needed.
The only difference in Florida seems to be that they were cruder about it and it dragged on so long it got weird. Weirder.
The Democrats have made it clear they are guided by one rule only:
"Just win, baby. Just win"
The Republicans need to assume the Democrats will ALWAYS cheat - and take counter-measures.
Democrats steal another election in New Mexico.
Fuck this.
Remember them:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/11/soros-tied-hillary-alumni-group-helping-to-organize-volunteers-for-florida-recount/
If you want the Democrats to stop counting votes, the Republicans just have to announce that they found a bunch of uncounted military votes.
It's the statistical noise from close elections. You guys are just jacking off to conspiracy porn.
This was the group behind dr. Christine ford.
Rules for all or rules for none.
Choose wisely, leftists.
Ann's idea of a strong argument for Trump is just another lie, one of the dozens he utters every day -- "large numbers of new ballots showed up out of nowhere, and many ballots are missing or forged" -- nothing but a lie. Ann is too bored to notice that the actual people involved, Scott and DeSantis, have neglected to bring fraud charges. Nor was the provisional ballots box filled with provisional ballots. Ann must be still musing about the flavor of Bill Clinton's cum.
There is an automatic recount if the outcome is within a certain percent. That is the case here.
Yeah. Let's just completely ignore the hows, whens or whys tens of thousands of ballots just happened to show up - out of nowhere - in order to push the number into that recount percentage.
Let's not pay any attention to that.
By strong argument, I mean that it has power to move minds.
Howard said...
It's the statistical noise from close elections. You guys are just jacking off to conspiracy porn.
Every single close race magically swings one direction.
If you have any understanding of statistics you know at least one of these would break the other way.
There has never been an election where a republican magically found several thousand "provisional" ballots days after an election and taken a seat from a democrat.
But democrats do it every election.
Statistical noise.
Laughable.
Ann Althouse said...
By strong argument, I mean that it has power to move minds.
What would it take to make you care?
How egregious do the democrats have to be?
Kyrsten Synema declared the "winner."
On veterans day.
Against a veteran who legitimately won the election.
When we were over in Afghanistan we saw blatantly evil shit. Child rape is the national pass time there. During the Obama administration we were counseled constantly on respect and understanding of the locals.
We had a chaplan rat on a bunch of us because we made disparaging comments about the locals.
People got fired in several different cases. The pressure came from the top. None of this was unit level. Everyone just covering their ass.
Then people started getting fired for shooting people.
Then by the last deployment we were just catching and releasing taliban shitbags. We knew within a ten meter grid where all of the real leaders were. We could have killed them at any time. We could have ended the Taliban in a month.
You all voted for Obama. Clinton. Bush. All of them.
I voted for one Bush once. In 2004 John Kerry was such a piece of shit I was actually motivated to vote. There is no vote I regret more.
I went into the army shortly after that because I wanted to help particularly the women and children in Iraq. Then Afghanistan.
Individuals are ok. They can be sincere. Sometimes.
But people back here. You are just ridiculous. The more of you there are the more ridiculous you are. Who the fuck votes for a piece of shit like Synema? Who can accept a system that lets her find thousands of votes days after the election?
Fuck this shit.
Ann, by that reasoning, you'd regard the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a strong argument.
Marco Rubio
Verified account @marcorubio
Nov 10
Marco Rubio Retweeted Doug Hanks
Miami Dade is a county Democrats win big. But you don’t see anyone freaking out about their election department. Because so far they have processed more ballots than #BrowardCounty elections dept & did so in a timely, competent & law abiding way.
You don't mean erstwhile; you mean ostensible.
Marco Rubio
Verified account @marcorubio
"Why all the lies from left about GOP trying to stop votes from being counted? To distract from lawlessness."
Trying to stop ballot creation fraud by democrats is the dead of night is .... racist.
Marco Rubio
Verified account @marcorubio
Nov 9
"If a “Red County” did what #BrowardCounty & #PalmBeachCounty are doing, they would march in the streets & confront Republicans about it in restaurants
But because it’s happening in a “Blue County” they create increasingly novel & creative arguments to justify it."
Why do we continue to count "votes" until the Democrat wins, and THEN stop. Why don't we stop when the law says we do? Waiting to see how many votes are needed to change the outcome seems like a strange standard - a strange one-way standard. Are we still counting any races where the Democrat was ahead? Does anyone think the Dems would be still counting if they won on election day? None of what they say about counting every vote would matter suddenly.
"If a “Red County” did what #BrowardCounty & #PalmBeachCounty are doing, they would march in the streets & confront Republicans about it in restaurants
The problem is that red counties are more competently run, whereas blue counties are mostly urban blue hells with just the right mix of corruption and incompetence that they can at least try to get away with claiming "polling problems" and "breakdowns" and other such "unexpected" events, to give themselves the opportunity to find just enough new ballots to offset any small R edge in the original count.
No minds are being moved or even open to such movement. The Dems would not accept any argument that did not leave them the winners. The Republicans would accept any outcome that looked legal and fair. That's not what the Dems are looking for.
What is so magical about the vote count on election night? In most states the results reported by the press aren't even an official count, even when they are phoned in to a state election office. In many states where voting by mail is allowed, it simply isn't possible to do the full count until several days after election day.
The press wants to report a winner on election night, and usually the winner doesn't change even if the vote totals do, but we're getting nothing but "projected" winners on election night.
It's not the delay. It's what the delay is designed to accomplish. They could have done it on time, like all the other counties, but they chose to wait and see if they needed more votes. If the Dems had enough votes to win, why would they delay it? Answer: They wouldn't.
What is so magical about the vote count on election night?
It is not just about the vote count on election night. It is about which ballots are counted. If a precinct keeps, 'discovering' new batches of ballots days and days after election night, that looks very suspect. Especially when there has been a history of irregularities in that district. Also, if someone is doing something they shouldn't, recurring votes gives that person or group a chance to look at the outcome and decide if there is plausible path to falsify votes. If an election was a complete blow out and the only way one could turn an election was to add literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of votes that might appear too risky for them to do so. But if the election were closer and they saw by adding perhaps tens of thousands of votes they could change the election then that path looks more plausible and thus an open avenue to cheat.
Just a reminder. I pointed out that a Broward County election employee filed an affidavit that she saw election officials filling out ballots in 2016, reported it, and was immediately fired.
Freder responds that this means nothing because it happened in 2016 (never mind that they deliberately made sure there was no one to blow the whistle in 2018), that it happened before the election (as if fake ballots created before the election are okay), and that Trump won anyway so who cares?
Every leftie here has taken the same tone of utter dismissal. No, worse, they're acting as if their response is so obviously reasonable that Republicans are evil and liars for even pointing it out. Chuck thanks Freder for his incisive rebuttal.
Think about that. Think what our lefties' standard for judging a conservative complaint to be valid and reasonable must be, if even THAT doesn't come close to qualifying according to them.
I lived in Broward County for 5 years. It was not a third world country. If it's been taken over by crooks since 2009 when I left, I'm sorry to hear it.
The first thing to do is to remove ALL the existing election personnel from the recount process. Not just Snipes, because you don't know who (if anyone) has been involved in improper actions.
Then, you bring in a new group, with Republicans and Democrats teamed. Their first job is to determine which ballots are valid -- most important: is there a chain of custody? Then, does the ballot count from each voting location match the records of how many people voted there? Presumably those who know more than I do about the voting process in Broward County will identify other issues.
Then, unless the bipartisan team determines that there are not enough clearly valid ballots to change the results of the initial count, the team recounts, but only the VALID ballots.
Given the history in Broward and Palm Beach Counties...
Like I said, statistical artifact conspiracy porn.
Recounts typically don’t swing enough votes to change the winner. Out of 4,687 statewide general elections between 2000 and 2015, just 27 were followed by recounts, according to data compiled by FairVote, a nonpartisan group that researches elections and promotes electoral reform. Just three of those 27 recounts resulted in a change in the outcome, all leading to wins for Democrats: Al Franken’s win in Minnesota’s 2008 U.S. Senate race, Thomas M. Salmon’s win in Vermont’s 2006 auditor election and Christine Gregoire’s win in Washington’s 2004 gubernatorial race.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/recounts-rarely-reverse-election-results/
“It's the statistical noise from close elections. You guys are just jacking off to conspiracy porn.”
They’re addicted to conspiracy theory and day by day, week, by week, they distance themselves from reality. What sad pathetic creatures, in the grips of Trump Cultism.
In Washington state we have had many recounts.
Democrats ALWAYS have more votes afterwards.
And as pointed out by Howard, only one recount in Washington resulted in a change of outcome.
So I guess you are technically correct (although even if Washington had an inordinate number of recounts, less than .5% doesn't seem like a lot).
and Minnesota, why franken was available to vote for Obamacare, and was subsequently expendible
This kind of Democrat behavior has been going on for a long time.
Chicago Mayor Daley used to hold off counting his cities votes till the rest of the state came in, then he knew how many votes he needed.
In 1960 and 1968, the Texas Democrats held off counting the votes in the Rio Grande Counties, again so they knew how many votes they had to "find".
The Democrats CONSTANTLY fight against any attempt to reduce voter fraud - because they just want to win - by any means necessary.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
They’re addicted to conspiracy theory and day by day, week, by week, they distance themselves from reality.
Says the person who spent the last two years pushing conspiracy theories.
Like I said, statistical artifact conspiracy porn.
Note the changing standard from "Dems always pick up votes" to "Dems have to win". Changing the outcome isn't necessary to highlight the statistical improbability. So either Howard's too stupid to understand that or he's actively trying to obscure the facts.
Which is easier to do?
Finding votes D
Or
lose/misplace votes R.
Sinema wins. Blue Wave!
Rick: out of 4000+ elections: 27 recounts, 3 changes of outcome... all dem. That's the true fake news that got u so verklempt.
Sinema wins. Blue Wave!
Good that you're happy. Sinema hates you!
“Good that you're happy. Sinema hates you!”
I doubt it. I’m from Wisconsin. Woo Hoo, Walker lost!
Howard said...
out of 4000+ elections: 27 recounts, 3 changes of outcome... all dem.
Three in all that time and now we might have three in one year. Statistical improbabilities are adding up.
Don't bother responding we already know you support Castro level voting margins so long as Team Blue wins.
Okay Rick. Don't let me disabuse you of your vocal fry soap opera view of the world. There, there, Daddy will make it all bedder.
The left is Castro. And Che and Hugo.
Yick.
There, there, Daddy will make it all bedder.
It's revealing a guy with such a naive view of the world he makes the same idiotic comment to everyone he disagrees with as if they all believe the same thing. It should be harder to define a standard and break it in a single comment but you manage it routinely.
Congratulations.
About the size of it:
https://libertyunyielding.com/2018/11/12/blue-wave-destroys-moderate-republicans/
“Kyrsten Synema declared the "winner."
On Veterans Day”
What did Trump do on Veterans Day to honor Veterans? What did he do in France, make a fool out of himself.
And if it weren't for one of those 3, Obamacare wouldn't have passed. But let's pretend it's all trivial.
Like Macron did celebrating Marshal petain, it was on McCain's watch that many veterans died in halls without treatment
Freder Frederson said...
In Washington state we have had many recounts.
Democrats ALWAYS have more votes afterwards.
And as pointed out by Howard, only one recount in Washington resulted in a change of outcome.
Slade Gordon was also a victim of Democrat bullshit. He was in the lead but King county reported late and surprise! had just enough votes to put Cantwell in the lead.
King county is just smarter about keeping their people under control than broward county.
There were 2 recounts when Rossi lost. Democrats didn't win after the first recall though they got closer.
They had to have a third recount to find the right number of votes.
So again you are a liar. That is three recounts where the democrat came out on top and with more votes than they started with in Washington state.
Every close election swings one way.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
“Kyrsten Synema declared the "winner."
On Veterans Day”
What did Trump do on Veterans Day to honor Veterans? What did he do in France, make a fool out of himself.
At least he wasn't openly cheering for the fucking taliban and al quaeda
Synema is a piece of shit and so is anyone who supported her.
So... Christina Ford won Broward? Dems want Venezuela. When do they want it? Now!.
Bill Ayers was just a guy in the neighborhood.
On Instapundit there's a satirical post from someone calling himself "Snake Plissken," reminding us of the legend that on every Election Day the Recount Fairy distributes "lost" ballots to all the needy Democrats.
Gore attempted to steal the 2000 election.
Any other conclusion is not supported by the New York Time's exhaustive review of the actual election results. Al Gore tried to steal the 2000 election. To hell with him.
One thing about the Wisconsin election. The Democrats lost thousands more voters in Milwaukee County, voters, not votes. The black community there continued to move away from the Democrats by not voting. I don't know where Evers' margin came from but it wasn't Milwaukee city or Milwaukee county. Walker had about 2,000 fewer voters than Trump had in 2016 but Evers had about 25,000 fewer voters than Hillary had. And Hillary had thousands fewer than Obama. The absentee (early voting) ballots are included in these totals as far as I can tell. When city voters become middle class and move to suburbs or outer city they begin to vote Republican or independent. This has always happened and it is seems it is still happening in Milwaukee City / County. If the black community is moving from the Democrats, this phenomenon is worth study. I'm sure they want jobs, not mobs and I'm sure Evers won't deliver on jobs.
Anyone know how much "noise" there is in a count of votes? It seems like it ought to be close to zero. If so, recounts should have very close to the original numbers. If there is a lot of noise, and an election is close, simply the act of the recount can flip the election. Do it again, and it flips the other way. For the instances when the count is "in the noise," I think it makes sense to go with the original count. If it isn't "in the noise," there is no reason to recount.
Also, it does seem like election laws ought to be tightened up. "Found" ballots should not be counted after a certain period. And, please, can we get voter ID? These elections are often too close, allowing small amounts of fraud to flip an election, and I don't trust Democrats, especially Al Franken.
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