Later, before leaving on a trip to Montana, he was asked what the consequences would be if Saudi Arabia’s culpability was established.
“Well, it’ll have to be very severe,” he said. “I mean, it’s bad, bad stuff.”
But it is not at all clear what Mr. Trump has in mind, given the central role that Saudi Arabia plays in the president’s strategy for the Middle East and the web of ties that have developed between the prince and the White House, particularly with Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner....
Trump said in the interview it was still “a little bit early” in the process to draw definitive conclusions about who ordered the killing. But he expressed no doubt that the truth would come out soon.... American intelligences agencies... are divided on the degree of responsibility that can be pinned on the prince....
During his conversation with The Times, Mr. Trump was uncharacteristically guarded.... In part, Mr. Trump acknowledged, that caution reflected his recognition that the Khashoggi case now posed a bigger challenge to him than other issues “because it’s taken on a bigger life than it would normally take on.”...
१९ ऑक्टोबर, २०१८
"Unless the miracle of all miracles happens, I would acknowledge that he’s dead. That’s based on everything — intelligence coming from every side."
Said Trump, interviewed by the NYT in "In Shift on Khashoggi Killing, Trump Edges Closer to Acknowledging a Saudi Role."
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२१५ टिप्पण्या:
215 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Trump usually takes on the role of adult in the room.
The cult of expertise takes on an obviously comic aspect, in reaction.
What life would it normally take on?
I hope we don't bomb the WaPo. Or maybe I do. I'm torn.
So a pal of Osama and member of the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist group, is killed by another group of murderously misogynist, western hating dictators.
What to do? When journalists start wailing up a storm every time a female abuse victim or gay person gets stoned to death, or a slave is beaten to death by his or her Saudi masters, I’ll believe it is human dignity and not pure narcissism and hatred for Trump that is stimulating their outrage.
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. The same thing happens every week in Russia and Venezuela.
If America were required to have an antagonistic relationship with every nation that murdered its own citizens, we should have gone to war long ago with China and Russia.
There is no tape.
Every time that this Khashoggi word shows up, I say "who", and why should we in the US of America care.
So they've gone from lethal weapon to Rasputin, ash from evil dead is next.
"Trump usually takes on the role of adult in the room."
Hahahahaha!! Oh my god.
Yes, if by "adult" you mean an immature 13-year old.
The Khashoggi affair has the potential to unravel our alliance system in the Middle East. That's why its important.
It is also a reminder that the KSA is evil. A majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis, 15 out of 19, I believe. The fact that we and the Israelis have gotten into bed with these monsters, for the sake of European oil supplies, is an indictment of our own countries. That this goes back to the 1940's is an indictment of every administration since FDR, including him.
"So a pal of Osama and member of the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist group, is killed by another group of murderously misogynist, western hating dictators."
A group of murderously misogynist, western hating dictators who are our friends and allies.
"if Saudi Arabia’s culpability was established" Probably he needs to make sure that it never quite gets "established".
sykes.1 said...
The Khashoggi affair has the potential to unravel our alliance system in the Middle East
Then, let it unravel. Other than Israel (and I don't even trust them that much) we don't need friends over there. We just need to tell them what to do.
Serious is a subgenre of frivolous, not its opposite.
I have to agree with Tina Trent on this one. We don't have a lot of evidence, and I think Trump is right to be careful on rushing to judgement. But the Saudi's have done plenty worse than this for offenses that wouldn't be considered crimes in the western world. And removal of the crown Prince that has brought about so much reform is not a smart idea, unless there is substantial evidence that he was involved.
Let's wait until we are certain Spain bombed the Maine.
"I don't understand why this is such a big deal. The same thing happens every week in Russia and Venezuela."
Ignoring for the moment that you do not provide evidence such murders happen every week in Russia and Venezuela, we are not such good bros and business partners of those nations as we are with Saudi Arabia. Somehow, because America wants arch-enemies to restart the Cold War--entirely to justify our obscene (and obscenely wasteful) expenditures on the military and intelligence agencies--Russia moved from being a friend to "our enemy" somewhere in the last few years.
"Other than Israel (and I don't even trust them that much) we don't need friends over there. We just need to tell them what to do."
On what basis do we have a right to "tell them what do to?"
"The fact that we and the Israelis have gotten into bed with these monsters, for the sake of European oil supplies, is an indictment of our own countries." Meh. Saudi Arabia is currently much much less of a problem than its competition in the Middle East. It makes sense to encourage them in that.
I got enough of this during the Cold War. Some tin-pot dictator in South America was a thug, therefore it was immoral to ally with him against the Soviet Union.
Only thing is, the people originating that meme were Communists working for the Soviet Union.
They have to cut him up alive so that it's a deterrent. It's either that or waterboarding.
What happens in Riyadh stays in Riyadh.
Olympic fencing ought to add scimitar and dagger to sabre, foil and epee.
Remember the middle east rulers are just a bunch of guys walking around being serious.
Send Elizabeth Warren over to teach them indian culture.
This is looking like a classic example of the disconnect between the press and Trump. A "normal" politician would have said something like: We are very concerned about the fate of this man. We are monitoring the situation and when we fully understand what has happened we will take the appropriate action:".
But Trump says: well it could be this or it could be that, or even this other. We don't know so we will have to see.
The press does not seem to understand that both statements say the same and jump on one or other of the alternatives that Trump state and run with it as his opinion.
Maybe Trumps biggest problem is that he cannot lie well.
Put the camel's nose under the teepee.
Make Mecca an American indian reservation.
Robert Cook said...
On what basis do we have a right to "tell them what do to?"
Because we are the US of A, and we have a yard of dick, and a bag full of balls.
"I got enough of this during the Cold War. Some tin-pot dictator in South America was a thug, therefore it was immoral to ally with him against the Soviet Union."
We weren't allying with tin-pot dictators in South American against the Soviet Union. How ridiculous! What could a South American tin-pot dictator do for us against the Soviet Union? We allied with them to enforce our will in this hemisphere to ensure no popular people's movements for economic equality could gain hold and spread. They were our local enforcers. We trained many of them in techniques of torture and repression. We pretended it was a defense against "Soviet influence," but it was a defense against the people of this hemisphere getting the idea they were sovereign over their governments. Such an idea might have spread here to this country, and our government wouldn't and won't have that.
The average IQ in Saudi Arabia is 84.
https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country
Cutting remarks lead to blows.
Why should we demolish important international relationships based on a story that hasn't been proven about the death of this journalist? It is all rumors at this point.
Even IF it can be proven, why blow up the Middle East? How many other countries have done reprehensible things and we are still trying to have relationships for our own good and own purposes. China for example.
WHY is the death of this guy, who is not even an American Citizen more important than the PROVEN deaths in Bengazi of not only our own brave citizens who died protecting American interests but the American Ambassador who was assassinated in the Embassy? While our own President just stood by, watched and ate popcorn.
What difference at this point does it make, who killed Khashoggi? To paraphrase Hillary Clinton, who didn't lift a finger as Secretary of State to prevent the massacre despite desperate pleas for help.
I don't care about this guy. I care about the USA and our military who might be again used as cannon fodder for.....what?
"Because we are the US of A, and we have a yard of dick, and a bag full of balls."
Mmmm...that's not a legal standard or basis of control, but a claim of dictatorial power over the world. It's also not true...we're an increasingly aged and rickety empire facing our expiration date rushing upon us. That Trump was elected President shows we're in our "Nero fiddles while Rome burned" stage of decadent empire.
#SaudiLivesMatter
Trump has done more helpful things for the citizens of this country than Cash for Clunkers Obama.
Who?
And by that I mean "who hasn't wanted to murder a journalist?"
Some people have all the luck.
Speaking of face built for punching, maybe we should send Krugman to Turkey to do some 'hard hitting' reporting? (falls to floor laughing at the idea of Krugman as journalist)
Whatever happened to Mr. Khashoggi - and by whom and for what reasons - the published information all come from Erdogan's Turkey which seems to be preparing to join Iran and Russia in a war against Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Egypt and thus have a lot of interest in splitting the United States off from that coalition.
Given that there are those within the Saudi regime who may feel their country's alliance with Israel is a greater sin against Islam than Shi-ism, it might be wise to wait and see before committing to positions that can't be recalled.
Let's see....a Saudi is murdered in a Saudi consulate in Turkey and this is our business
because?????
Oh....wait....I answered my own question.
Why should we care? We don't.
The Media does because they think they found yet another hammer to hit Trump over the head with and are hoping to eventually find that pony under the giant pile of shit that they keep creating.
Anything to hurt Trump. No matter what the consequences are to the Country or other people.
“The Khashoggi affair has the potential to unravel our alliance system in the Middle East. That's why its important.”
Um, no. One dead Saudi spook versus a mountain of money and all the associated Fate of Nations shit? This is the media keeping itself busy, nothing more.
They have to cut him up alive so that it's a deterrent.
= chopping off heads or chipping off body parts?
"The Khashoggi affair has the potential to unravel our alliance system in the Middle East. That's why its important."
Which gives away who is behind pushing this meme - at a minimum, Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, and those here who prefer Obama's Middle East policy of subsidizing Iran, over Trump's policy of countering Iran with an alliance between Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Egypt. No one should be surprised that one of the biggest names pushing this story is Khashoggi's apparent buddy, the corrupt and discredited former CIA chief, Brennan, who likely is the person who caused Khashoggi of be issued a Green Card, despite his well known ties to terrorism (which would be disqualifying for anyone without that level of contacts). Make no mistake - this story is being pushed to break up that growing alliance, at Jared Kushner, as its architect and facilitator of that alliance, and, therefore, at his father in law, PDJT.
Every molehill is a mountain to drop on Trump.
I don't understand why the Media cares about this ONE GUY, but barely discusses the incredible number of refugees, murders, rapes and economic and environmental destruction wrought by Venezuela.
This is that media double standard.
So I can't make them tell the truth, but I certainly can put a 'weight' upon how much I trust their news and analysis.
This is what happens when you live in an echo chamber.
Q: What do you call the the Khashoggi affair?
A: It is a good start.
Brennan his trained chimp, rhodes his protege price the high priest of negotiations aaron david miller who always thinks israel should surrender more territory.
Trump should send Brennan and Clapper to that Saudi embassy in Turkey.
the published information all come from Erdogan's Turkey
I don't know about preparing for war, but Erdogan still has lots of reasons to fraction any coalition between the US, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. If we had an honest Press, they would recognize the efforts Erdogan has gone to silence the Press in Turkey. That's the guy the NYT has decided to just believe.
Which story are we to believe- that Khashoggi was dissolved in acid and flushed down the drain, or that he was cut up and buried in a forest in Turkey?
Again, there is literally nothing here to hang a hat on- there is literally zero evidence in public view.
Erdoğan faked a coup against himself as a pretense to arrest and torture hundreds, if not thousands, of people who might be a threat against him.
He has as much credibility as the NYT and WaPo.
The Rhodes Echo Chamber is pushing this, along with Turkey.
The goal is to force Trump to go back to the Obama Iran policy.
I’m surprised Turkey has not released the recording, or is this fake news?
Trump recognizes this is a trap. Saudi is tribal, and will strike back at those that attack it. An eye for an eye...
Be interesting how Trump escapes the trap. He could be waiting for the story to die down.
The Saudis should just say, "Sure, we killed that treasonous son of a bitch. So what?' Instead, they took a defensive position which, as Trump knows, is fatal.
"It is also a reminder that the KSA is evil. A majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis, 15 out of 19, I believe. The fact that we and the Israelis have gotten into bed with these monsters, for the sake of European oil supplies, is an indictment of our own countries. That this goes back to the 1940's is an indictment of every administration since FDR, including him."
The interesting thing about that statement is how it is partially right, but essentially wrong. The first thing to note here is that Khashoggi was a close friend of Osama Ben Laden, and that is probably because their families were close. He has long been an avid supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood, from which all of the major branches of Sunni Islamic terrorist organization were spawned. Which points to the fact that one of the targets of the new Crown Prince are Saudis, and esp Royal Saudis who essentially have been funding terrorism, as well as prostelizating their fiery brand of austere Sunni Islam around the world, since before OBL and al Quaeda broke onto the world scene. It is Khashoggi, and not the Crown Prince who represents Saudis supporting terrorism against the US and the west, and the latter represents turning away from condoning such.
The other part of this is that, sure, Israel may get some help with oil, short term, but that is far from their only, or even primary, interest here. Their primary interest is peace and security. Always has been. And an alliance with Saudi Arabia against, esp Iran, but also the Muslim Brotherhood, and affiliates, potentially greatly facilitates this. It mostly neuters the Sunni threat against them, and gives them a powerful ally against Shiite Iran. And no surprise that the Saudis see the advantage here too of the alliance, with Iranian proxies now lobbing rockets at their capital.
Khashoggi was of Turkish origin, bin Laden Yemeni Prince talal Armenian Lebanese, all admitted to the court of the kingdom, the last player is interesting along with the mysterious Prince Farhan
"I don't understand why the Media cares about this ONE GUY, but barely discusses the incredible number of refugees, murders, rapes and economic and environmental destruction wrought by Venezuela. "
They care about him partially because they believe that he is one of theirs (he never really was a journalist, but rather was a mouthpiece for the Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist groups trying to destroy western Judeo-Christian culture). But more importantly, because the Democratic Party, in this country, has chosen to ally themselves with Iran and terrorists in this debate on American foreign policy.
@Bruce Hayden:
It is Khashoggi, and not the Crown Prince who represents Saudis supporting terrorism against the US and the west, and the latter represents turning away from condoning such.
Khashoggi has not supported terrorism "against the US and the west" and in fact was sent by the Saudi royal family in the 1990s to try to convince bin Laden to give up expanding his jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri criticized the Muslim Brotherhood specifically because of the renouncement of revolutionary violence and the participation in political parties and state institutions.
And as for the "the latter represents turning away from condoning such," remember the one of the key features of MBS' foreign policy in the region has been the empowering of Sunni radical groups in Syria (e.g. al-Nusra Front) and the empowering and recruitment of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen. That is not a "turning away." It's an embrace.
And regarding the comparisons to China, Russia, and Venezuela, they are inapt because none of those countries is a client state of the US. When client states mess up, their patrons are implicated to a degree. That is the nature of the patron-client relationship.
Qatar actually employed at least one nusra front fundraiser in their defense ministry.
It would be funny if he turned up in a Starbucks somewhere saying "So, has anyone been looking for me?"
Mr. Trump?
Civility much?
A majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis, 15 out of 19, I believe.
Or at least the passports they were traveling on at the time were. The Last I heard--about five years ago--we still didn't *know^ who most of the hijackers really were. When we dug up those who were supposed to be close relatives of the hijackers, it turned out their DNA didn't match any of the DNA collected at the crash sites or from the hotel rooms, etc. We found other passports and identities that some of the hijackers had used in the past through face recognition, and traced the relatives for those and still no matches. Most of the hijackers had used other identities in the past. Saudi passports are the easiest to travel under, throwing up fewer flags.
Let's not go There, they were trained in camps funded by the princes own fathers s audi high commission, their passports had unique symbols that marked then as valuable to the regime.
Media's hyping of this alleged murder while misleading the public on who Khashoggi is proves how correct Trump is when he calls them the "enemy of the people". They value getting Trump over country. Hopefully Trump manages to regain the narrative on this. I have many problems with our cozy relationship with Saudi Arabia. Whether they killed this member of the muslim brotherhood is not one of them.
"Um, no. One dead Saudi spook versus a mountain of money and all the associated Fate of Nations shit? This is the media keeping itself busy, nothing more."
I respectfully disagree. I think that it, in good part, is a stratagem to attack Trump. The Crown Prince is being attacked here, and by all indications, he was brought into the alliance with Israel and the US by Trump's son in law, Kushner, who has apparently forged a personal relationship with him. The crown prince here is the weak point in the alliance. He has had to lock up a lot of very powerful Saudis, including Royal Princes and billionaires, to effect this change of position by his country. It was a very risky move, but he still appears to have the support of his father, the King. Weaken the Crown Prince enough, and he maybe forced to shift policy back to what it was before, in self defense.
What they are trying to do here is turn him toxic to the American public. From the Saudi point of view, they know that he has done worse, and don't really care. But the American people don't accept the level of bloody brutality that the Saudi public does. The Dems and their MSM adherents don't really care, except politically. They routinely ignore far more brutality around the world on a routine basis, with barely a mention. How often do we hear about the Chinese reeducation camps being run as their response to Muslim unrest in their western provinces. The Chinese here are making even the Russians look soft in confronting Islamic terrorism. Etc.
Because we are the US of A, and we have a yard of dick, and a bag full of balls.
I don't know when or how, but I'm using this at some future time.
Remember the quick trial and summary execution of the Saudi's responsible for bombing the American residence hotel in the Kingdom? Expect the same thing here.
When it comes to the media, my gut instinct is to be very wary of things that they are obsessed with. The more light they try to shine, the more suspicious I am of their motives. Unfortunately, that is the state of today's media.
@Farmer, Saudi Arabia is not a “client state” of the United States.
Once again we have the Post deluding itself into thinking that they, by rights, have a role to play in formulating American foreign policy. They don’t.
Why is this such huge news?
Well, news comes from news organizations, so:
Because he is/was (sort of) a journalist. You know, one of us.
Because he is/was part of the Muslim Brotherhood. You know, one of the guys we like.
Because he is/was a guy we can use to undermine Trump. You know, the most biggly-important thing in the world.
Some of the points brought up here:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/10/19/khashoggi-made-defining-issue-u-s-foreign-policy/
Just so everybody understands, as far as I am concerned, Jamal Khashoggi is a good jihadist at last.
“Trump usually takes on the role of adult in the room."
Jesus. You people are delusional.
The most entertaining part of this blog is watching how the lefty commentators here have to twist, turn and gyrate their positions to fit their narrative. They pretty much have to fall on all sides of the issues to maintain their views. The gymnastic talent displayed puts the Cirque du Soleil to shame. So inconsistent and hypocritical.
Israel has made peace with half the Middle East.
Corrupt globalists profit off the instability of war.
The Khashoggi affair is just another lie pushed by the globalists to keep their corrupt world order intact.
MBS is trying to modernize Saudi Arabia and end the war with Israel.
The globalists will not allow that.
The local news stations here in SoCal dutifully report on the Khashoggi situation every morning, always with "new information" about the event. This new information so far hasn't included Khashoggi's ties to Bin Laden or the Muslim Brotherhood, interestingly enough.
No the word is shaheed or martyr, if one does for their faith, assuming he is dead.
Cali gets their nasty oil from KSA. I think Cali should boycott.
In the big scheme of foreign relations - this is a fart in the wind. The ChiComs kill two people before breakfast every day. And no one cares.
Just the leftwing press at work. They want to paint Trump as "Soft" or as "Friends" of Saudi killers, because he's been bought off by Saudi Money.
That's what this is all about. Get Trump. Just like always. Like the hysterical anti-Russian crap.
Obama -Cuba. ‘Nuf said.
Rooskies always do this.
What happened to, stay out of it?
This just replaces the usually MSM daily bulletins on Mueller and how "Trump is really going Down - this time. "
I could bring up Oswaldo paya, died in an 'auto accident' along his popular party associate was banned from mention It, a leading Venezuelan opposition 'jumped' from the sebin holding facility.
Of course, idiot Lindsey Graham is going hysterical. Someone should look into who is donating $$ to his Senate Campaigns.
This illustrates the medias ability to draw attention to something.
This guy is one out of thousands upon thousands of horrible deaths that happen in the world every day.
And yet we focus on this guy? Why? Because he is a journalist?
He isn't even American. What's so special about this guy?
I want to say it's because he is a journalist. But that can't be it. Because as Nolte from Breitbart points out, 30 Mexican journalists have been murdered in Mexico since 2016. Not a peep from our media.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, Saudi Arabia is not a “client state” of the United States.
Yes, they are. They are almost completely dependent on the US for their security. They could not conduct the war on Yemen as they have without US logistical and technical assistance. We insure their regime, and they adopt stances that we want them to (in theory, anyway).
Once again we have the Post deluding itself into thinking that they, by rights, have a role to play in formulating American foreign policy. They don’t.
Every American citizen has a "role to play in formulating American foreign policy." That's what voting and free speech are all about.
And don't forget mitt Romney, he's the latest virtue signaler
The Saudis should subcontract their wetwork out to Mossad. Mossad is really good at it, and, even if they get caught, who would believe they're in the employ of the Saudis.
Gahrie said...
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. The same thing happens every week in Russia and Venezuela.
And Turkey, for that matter. Writing stuff the Sultan doesn't approve of is dangerous there.
Nations, the axiom says, don't have friends but interests. It's in the interests of the US to have good relations with the Saudis and vice versa. I don't think the US should adopt a prosecutorial stance against the royal family, but, using the same standard, I don't think it's in the interest of the Saudi to use this particular prince as its face to the world. There are other princes, and, if he's the only person in Saudi Arabia capable and willing to pull them into the new millennium what kind of chance would he have.......Kashoggi was probably killed for reasons other than his journalism work, but the fact remains that his murder was a blunder. If the Prince can screw this up, he'll probably screw up a lot of other things.
Had an Iranian regime critic willingly left his country, obtained a US green card, published articles critical of the Iranian regime in US publications, and then was murdered abroad by Iranian agents, the partisan sides of the argument would simply reverse.
Instead of getting involved on one side or the other of regional rivalries in the Middle East, a smarter strategy would be to adopt a more neutral stance and to balance competing rivalries. Most countries in the world have normal diplomatic and commercial relations with all of the states in the Middle East. We should seek the same.
Jesus. You people are delusional.
Unless, of course, you are the one who is deluded.
Inga: "Jesus. You people are delusional."
The Believe All Putin/hillary Generated Golden Dossiers Crew chimes in!
LOL
What could go wrong?
$110bn bucks in arms exports and the five hundred thousand jobs that go with the deal or piss and moan about about some Arab with terrorist ties? Five will get you a thousand that the Russians, Chinese and the Europeans will gladly take the arms orders if we stupidly box the Saudis into a corner and force them to cancel on us. Say Cook, how did you come to the conclusion that the Saudis are worse than Uncle Joe Stalin? We sure did ally with him between 1942 and 1945. Say Farmer, why don't we cancel $110bn in domestic social spending and give the money to the Pentagon to add to it's arms purchases?
Blogger sykes.1 said...
The Khashoggi affair has the potential to unravel our alliance system in the Middle East. That's why its important.
The left's use of the Khashoggi affair.....
Ignoring for the moment that you do not provide evidence such murders happen every week in Russia and Venezuela, we are not such good bros and business partners of those nations as we are with Saudi Arabia.
Cookie hasn't been the same since Stalin died.
Minchin will be attending the anti terror and Iran conference in november.
Farmer dilates on his "Iran is our friend" theme.
The "news" on the Khashoggi affair are too orchestrated.
@cubanbob:
Say Farmer, why don't we cancel $110bn in domestic social spending and give the money to the Pentagon to add to it's arms purchases?
The $110 billion figure is illusory and is based only on totals contained in various letters of interest. Most of what has been purchased has been parts and munitions. Final decisions have not been made on other systems and other arms purchase deals, including some touted by Trump himself have been in place for several years.
@Michael K:
Farmer dilates on his "Iran is our friend" theme.
No country is our friend. That is not a good metaphor for international relations.
Because so much partisan drivel drives our discourse, people haven't even bothered to notice how much continuity there has been in the U.S.-Saudi relationship. The Obama administration sold billions of dollars of arms to the Saudis and supported their launching of the war on Yemen. Rather than reversing course, Trump has merely doubled down on Obama administration blunders.
The media uses this Khashoggi bullshit as a way to not address how many people are killed in Chicago, Detroit, St Louis, Philadelpha... every fucking day.
You disappoint me Farmer. The U.S.- House of Saud relationship goes back to the early 1930's - if not the '20's.
and it has indeed been personal.
@Hagar:
You disappoint me Farmer. The U.S.- House of Saud relationship goes back to the early 1930's - if not the '20's.
Where exactly did I suggest it didn't?
Yes, they are. They are almost completely dependent on the US for their security. They could not conduct the war on Yemen as they have without US logistical and technical assistance. We insure their regime, and they adopt stances that we want them to (in theory, anyway).
@Farmer, glad you qualified that last sentence, because the oil embargo during Carter's administration is sort of a huge counterexample. But a quick peek at Wikipedia tells me that the Royal Saudi Air Force has 61 F-15C fighters, 87 F-15E Strike Eagles, 53 Eurofighter Typhoons, and 81 Panavia Tornadoes, 7 AWACS aircraft, and 23 tankers. This is a very potent air force, particularly now that Saddam Hussein regime is over and done with. We provide less security insurance for Saudi Arabia than we do for, for instance, Germany (only 221 fighters total).
This is an example of what I commented on at the end of a thread from the other day, where you have no idea what you're talking about, but you write with great authority in an effort to cow the other commentators. It's a trick I've seen professors use for their benefit, but speaking authoritatively doesn't make you correct in your theses.
Of course you cucks defend the murder of Khashoggi by swallowing the lies and innuendo that comes straight out of the Saudi propaganda machine. No big deal. The Saidi's got away with 911 when Bush told us to go shopping, then he danced the bitch role in a Saudi wedding ceremony in full mufti. Republicans have been taking it up the ass from the House of Saud because that endless money-tap spends.
Realpolitik says the Saudi's are too big to fail, so they get a pass on this. I don't like it, but I accept it. Politically, we can't just give teh sand worms a pass, so the waters are muddied to justify their act of press suppression (while getting a wink and nod from Javanka)... and you hypnotized cucks repeat the talking points memo as if it were true facts.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, glad you qualified that last sentence, because the oil embargo during Carter's administration is sort of a huge counterexample.
The oil embargo occurred during the Nixon administration, not Carter. And it is not a counterexample to the fact that Saudi Arabia is a US client state. It is one of the inherent risks in the patron-client relationship.
This is a very potent air force, particularly now that Saddam Hussein regime is over and done with.
All of which is totally dependent on US parts for repair and maintenance. If the US stopped providing these parts, the equipment would decay rapidly. That is the nature of the dependency.
We provide less security insurance for Saudi Arabia than we do for, for instance, Germany (only 221 fighters total).
Germany is a treaty ally, and we have made formal pledges to defend them. We have no such arrangement with Saudi Arabia.
This is an example of what I commented on at the end of a thread from the other day, where you have no idea what you're talking about, but you write with great authority in an effort to cow the other commentators.
I have an opinion on certain matters, and I state that opinion. If someone believes I have gotten something wrong factually, they can point it out, and I'll respond. That's was discourse is all about.
Howard: "Of course you cucks defend the murder of Khashoggi by swallowing the lies and innuendo that comes straight out of the Saudi propaganda machine."
To flatly state that is to align yourself directly with anti-western islamic radicals like Iran and Turkey who routinely murder and imprison journalists and citizens.
Why dont we just cut to chase: the left wants Israel and Trump destroyed and the left will ally with any entity that helps them do that.
Its no different than the decades of support the left provided to every communist totalitarian nation that has existed in the last 100 years.
But only every single one every single time.
Ho hum.
Why dont we just cut to chase: the left wants Israel and Trump destroyed and the left will ally with any entity that helps them do that.
Its no different than the decades of support the left provided to every communist totalitarian nation that has existed in the last 100 years.
Well said. That Codevilla essay I linked to goes into it in detail.
Howard doesn't understand that there is a new boss in SA and that the Lefty Media is missing the old boss that he describes in his first paragraph. Order another bag of dicks from the Althouse Amazon portal, why don't you?
Farmer thinks Nixon was in office in 1979.
The attempted 1973 embargo got nowhere because we were still an oil exporter.
@Michael K:
Farmer thinks Nixon was in office in 1979.
The attempted 1973 embargo got nowhere because we were still an oil exporter.
Michael K cannot read. Big Mike was talking about the Saudi Oil "embargo," which occurred from 73 to 74 during the Nixon administration. The 79 oil crisis was not what he was referring to though it is likely what he confused it with.
@Farmer, we do not supply parts for the European-built Typhoon and Tornado. And even at 50% readiness, the Saudis would have a lot of Eagles and Strike Eagles available.
Perhaps you are young enough that the oil embargo and its long gasoline lines is ancient history to you. I lived through it. When Carter aide Hamilton Jordan said that he couldn't think of a better place for long gasoline lines than Washington, DC, I made sure my neighbors knew about it. In 1980 my precinct went big for Ronald Reagan.
Looking for articles about blowing up the Middle East. Haven't found any yet.
@Farmer, it was called the "oil embargo" in 1979. I was there.
Farmer doubles down on a mistake.
Got it.
I remember the oil embargo well and it was in 1979.
In 1973, the attempted "embargo" was negligible. I remember that, too. Maybe you are too young.
@Drago:
To flatly state that is to align yourself directly with anti-western islamic radicals like Iran and Turkey who routinely murder and imprison journalists and citizens.
The US is aligned with Turkey through NATO. Iran and Saudi Arabia are both Islamist states. The royal families legitimacy is derived from their role as protectors of the two mosques. They are two Islamist countries vying for regional influence. They both have a strategy of funding and arming local groups sympathetic to their interests. Neither is likely to dominate in the near term due to countervailing forces. That is why balancing the rivalry rather than trying to get in one side is a better strategy.
Darrell: Actually, I have been following this story of the crown princes triangulation with Isreal against Iran for quite some time. If you want to pull your face outta that bagodicks for a moment, you might want to read Dexter Filkins article from the New Yorker last April. Right after that article came out, the blackmailing of Qatar worked and they agreed to bail out Kushner's 666 5th Ave balloon payment.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/09/a-saudi-princes-quest-to-remake-the-middle-east
Farmer: "The US is aligned with Turkey through NATO."
This is not your fathers NATO alignment.
Or hadnt you noticed?
MK: "Got it.
I remember the oil embargo well and it was in 1979."
That was the oil shock, which Carter and the west enabled, happily.
That's a strawman argument Drago. I accept the political murder because it's easier to swallow than the Saudi attack on the US on 911. I get that when you live in a Boy Scout fantasy, you need to swallow fairy tales when your man gets down and dirty. As far as I am concerned, we should disengage from the entire region. It has been nothing but a money and blood pit since Cain killed Abel.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, it was called the "oil embargo" in 1979. I was there.
Perhaps you are young enough that the oil embargo and its long gasoline lines is ancient history to you.
@Michael K:
I remember the oil embargo well and it was in 1979.
You two are both right. I was born in 1982 and thus "too young" to remember the 1979 oil crisis. However, I can read. Let's just review quickly shall we.
Big Mike and I were discussing Saudi Arabia as a client state, and he said that "the oil embargo during Carter's administration is sort of a huge counterexample." Now since both of you lived through it, can either of you explain what the fuck Saudi Arabia had to do with the 1979 oil crisis?
In other words, the "huge counterexample" he was alluding to was the 1973 Arab oil embargo against western countries not the 1979 crisis.
1973 was about getting back at Nixon supplying the Israelis, 1979 was about iran.
How about that:
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmreUslu
Blogger Big Mike said...
“Yes, they are. They are almost completely dependent on the US for their security. They could not conduct the war on Yemen as they have without US logistical and technical assistance. We insure their regime, and they adopt stances that we want them to (in theory, anyway).”
Yet they did amazingly well there in Yemen:
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/20170912.aspx
OK.
The rise in oil price benefited other OPEC members, which made record profits. When oil exports were later resumed under the new Iranian government, they were inconsistent and at a lower volume, pushing prices up. Saudi Arabia and other OPEC nations, under the presidency of Mana Al Otaiba, increased production to offset most of the decline, and in early 1979 the overall loss in worldwide production was about 4 percent.
OPEC failed to hold on to its preeminent position, especially after Iran and Iraq went to war in 1980 and caused a further 10% drop in worldwide production – and by 1981, OPEC production was surpassed by other exporters. Additionally, its own member nations were divided among themselves. Saudi Arabia, a "swing producer" trying to gain back market share after 1985, increased production and caused downward pressure on prices, making high-cost oil production facilities less profitable or even unprofitable.
The Saudis increased production to offset much of the embargo and Iran turmoil.
It's one of the reasons we consider them a friend, if not a formal ally.
Since I avoid your comments I may not have picked up the thread but the 1973 attempted embargo, which was a reaction to the Israeli "Yom Kippur War" and Nixon's resupply of them after they were attacked by Egypt, failed to have significant effects. By 1979, we were more dependent on imports and Jimmy Carter's insane theory that "oil tankers were waiting offshore" to drive up prices, did not help. I remember well parking my car in a line for the gas station which opened the next morning, so I could hold a place in line.
So a pal of Osama and member of the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist group, is killed by another group of murderously misogynist, western hating dictators.
Exactly. My give-a-damn meter is plumb busted.
@Bruce Hayden:
Yet they did amazingly well there in Yemen:
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/20170912.aspx
US special forces are in Saudi Arabia to assist with the war on Yemen. And the Saudis still rely on the US for intelligence, logistics support, and aerial refueling.
The military question is largely irrelevant. Saudi Arabia is vastly superior to Yemen in military terms. Whatever tactical successes the Saudis may have had, the war has failed to meet any of its stated objectives. The UAE has already abandoned its initial argument for the war. The Saudis are attempting to leverage their military superiority in order to impose a ruler on Yemen that has no legitimacy inside the country. He has fallen into the same trap as the Soviets in Afghanistan. It is also why despite all the superior armament, Saudi Arabia has resort to one of the older (and crueler) war strategies: starve the population into submission.
@Michael K:
All of that is fine and well. I did not say anything about the 1979 crisis. Big Mike simply erred when he said the "Carter administration," because that was not the embargo he was referring to.
Robert Cook said:
Yes, if by "adult" you mean an immature 13-year old.
Yeah, he's the 13-year old babysitter to the 3-year old toddlers on the left.
Farmer: I think you have cowed the deplorables here enough. It's really unfair of you to lower their self esteem using facts and providing a frame that has perspective and scale. You must have a Wall-Eye and can see the 2D and 3D transitions better than the militant normals
Blogger heyboom said...
Yeah, he's the 13-year old babysitter to the 3-year old toddlers on the left.
Exactly, and he refuses to change their diapers
Howard weighing in with his usual last-like focus on facts.
A bit more on Mr Khashoggi.
Laser. God damn autocorrect,
A bit more on Mr Khashoggi.
FrontPage hyperventilating about the threat of Islam to western countries. Shocking. What threats Europe does face are self-inflicted thanks to foolish immigration policy. Political Islamism is a sideshow. It is not an ideology that can be defeated through force of arms. Every major power in the Middle East, with the exception of the Egyptian military dictatorship, is Islamist. Iraq, a country we support and subsidize, has Islamism written into its constitution, and explicit Muslim Brotherhood parties are in government. Saudi Arabia relies on Islamism for its legitimacy. Its relationship with Muslim Brotherhood has oscillated over the years because they have many overlapping interests. Rifts between the Brotherhood and the Saudi regime are driven mainly by strategic and tactical concerns, not over significant ideological differences.
Who gives a shit about Khashoggi? Ace has thoughts about him - ".....And then there's The Washington Post. While that rag and every other phony Leftist house organ is rending their garments over this, I would ask the question, where were they when Khalid Sheik Mohammed was sawing journalist Daniel Pearl's head off with a rusty hacksaw and filming it? Or when Chris Stevens, Sean Smith, Tyrone Duffy and Glen Doherty were being slaughtered in Benghazi while Obama did nothing except go off to Vegas to snort coke with Jay Z? Or even a much milder yet deadly serious incident involving the wiretapping and harassment of reporter James Rosen right here on our own soil?"
In fact the whole fact meme driven by AA's lovers the NY Times and the rag WaPo is here -
http://ace.mu.nu/
"The Morning Report - 10/19/18"
—J.J. Sefton
Democrats are going full INga on he Khashoggi story.
It's not good to go full Inga.
Appearing on CNN with host Poppy Harlow, Castro, a member of the House Intelligence Committee, said that reports should be investigated about — and he actually said this — Jared Kushner giving Saudi officials a hit list that led to the death of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
Farmer with more non-sequiturs on Islamism.
@hstad:
In fact the whole fact meme driven by AA's lovers the NY Times and the rag WaPo is here -
That the establishment is driven by an anti-Trump agenda is well known to anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty. But it's really beside the point. The question is really what sort of relationship should the US have with Saudi Arabia.
@Michael K:
Farmer with more non-sequiturs on Islamism.
Islamism was the entire point of the article you linked to.
Schlump and the Greedy Old Party (GOP) have killed uncountable millions with their tax, environmental, and military bloat policies. Obama Care is being replaced with Trump Care, which means imprisonment, microchipping, deportation, and ultimately death. We knew Schlump was Hitler, but this pernicious identification method goes too far. It is like what the Nazis did in concentration camps. I'm having a lottery number tattooed on my forearm in solidarity with Schlump's many victims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_in_Nazi_concentration_camps
That reminds me of a famous short story entitled "The Lottery" (1948) by Shirley Jackson.
https://sites.middlebury.edu/individualandthesociety/files/2010/09/jackson_lottery.pdf
@Sykes.1. - I say you are a Russian troll farmer. What do you say to that? Here is my message to Moscow - check out Two-Headed Dog by Roky Erickson
In 1952 when Turkey was admitted to NATO, the country was secular and led by an Attaturk follower, Celâl Bayar. The government of Turkey joined the Allies toward the end of WWII.
The direction of Turkey under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is away from secularism and toward Islamism. Quite different from the 1950's. Turkey under Erdoğan is no longer considered a full-fledged democracy because of his policies that include the lack of free and fair elections, purges and jailing of opponents, and curtailed press freedom. More journalists are currently incarcerated in Turkey than in any other country.
And another thing - a fuck is not given about Khashoggi.
Russia and Saudi Arabia are two perfect examples of the kind of brain rot that partisan thinking imposes. Political affiliation still correlates with views of Russia but now in completely opposite directions as just a few years ago. The GOP critique of Obama vis-à-vis Russia was that he was not being confrontational enough. Russia was our "number one geopolitical foe." Now hysterical Russophobia is a feature of the DNC.
The Saudi policy that the establishment is now screaming about--arms sales and the Yemen War-- were Obama-era policies that Trump has doubled down on.
@Oso Negro:
@Sykes.1. - I say you are a Russian troll farmer. What do you say to that? Here is my message to Moscow - check out Two-Headed Dog by Roky Erickson
I would say it is untrue. And even if it were true, it would make no difference to whether or not anything I said was true or false, right or wrong, logical or illogical.
@brylun:
In 1952 when Turkey was admitted to NATO, the country was secular and led by an Attaturk follower, Celâl Bayar. The government of Turkey joined the Allies toward the end of WWII.
I do not think there should even be a NATO anymore, let alone one with Turkey inside of it.
The direction of Turkey under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is away from secularism and toward Islamism.
Yes, I worry about the Turkish Army officers I met in 2006 who showed us through the Scutari Barracks. It is an army headquarters but also a medical history site where Florence Nightingale's rooms are preserved.
Who actually gives a shit about what foreigners do to each other? I surely don’t
The press wants to hang it around Trump's neck, at the cost of our relationship with a Saudi Arabia that is at least turning away from funding Wahhabism, jeopardizing alliances in the region and opposition to Iran, which will absolutely nuke an American city once it has the capability.
The press really is the enemy of the American people.
@J Farmer - is Sykes.1 your secret identity? And yes, if we have a Russian provocateur here, it certainly influences the conversation
"The press really is the enemy of the American people."
Thanks! I needed a reminder.
@Oso Negro:
@J Farmer - is Sykes.1 your secret identity?
No.
And yes, if we have a Russian provocateur here, it certainly influences the conversation.
With all due respect, I don't think you understand what a provocateur is if you think it can describe anything I have ever written here.
@Jeremy Abrams:
The press wants to hang it around Trump's neck, at the cost of our relationship with a Saudi Arabia that is at least turning away from funding Wahhabism, jeopardizing alliances in the region and opposition to Iran, which will absolutely nuke an American city once it has the capability.
Saudi Arabia is not "turning away from funding Wahhabism."
And the notion that Iran would launch a nuclear first strike against the US is absurd. The regime is harsh and brutal but it is not irrational and suicidal. Iran has not had a nuclear program in 15 years, and the JCPOA blocked its path to a weapon. Trump's Iran strategy has not thus far compelled any significant change in Iranian behavior. The "maximum pressure" strategy has also failed to build international consensus for sanctions on the regime, and countries are already establishing alternative means of purchasing Iranian oil in order to sidestep US sanctions. Without broad international support, the US will be very limited in how much it can accomplish with sanctions.
@J Farmer - I didn’t say that YOU are a provacateur. I said it of the suddenly appearing Sykes. You replied to me as if I was addressing you, when I was not.
@Oso Negro:
@J Farmer - I didn’t say that YOU are a provacateur. I said it of the suddenly appearing Sykes. You replied to me as if I was addressing you, when I was not.
Oh my. I just caught it. Have no idea how I misread that. Perhaps the word "farmer" scrambled my brain. In any event, my apologies.
@ J Farmer - we all need a free pass from time to time! :)
I don't know about the "as usual" part, but in this case Trump is the adult in the room waiting for evidence before acting. Remember how everyone used to be worried that Trump would fly off the handle and get us involved in a war?
Local crime story.
It is pretty cool how out of the hundreds of foreign journalists killed this year by various dictators Khasshogi is the "journalist" we care about.
How a long time ME spook and Muslim Brotherhood agent somehow becomes a "journalist" is an awesome transformation.
Turkey, the source of the "information" like the obviously fake Apple Watch recording of the "journalist" being dismembered, has killed or imprisoned thousands of people in the last year hundreds of which were "journalists.
We know why people are making a big deal about this.
Trumpit is a moby and just tries to make democrats look stupid.
Inga, and Howard are leftists and they will do anything that gets them power over other people.
Farmer is a dishonest hack that wants the US to fail at everything abroad so he can feel like his stupid isolationist position is superior. This includes lying/purposely being obtuse about the motives of countries like Iran and Turkey who can never do anything wrong.
This is a joke subject. None of these people give two shits about Khasshogi or foreign journalists.
He was their source like akmetshin was Glenn Simpson's till it came time to burn him
https://www.powerlineblo4g.com/archives/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-and-the-washington-post-part-two.php
Trumpit: "Thanks! I needed a reminder."
Oh, you had alreadyforgotten that obambi spied on US journalists and their family members and falsely accused them of espionage?
It really is true. To be a leftist you have to work hard to not know alot of things.
In the future study Ingas and LLR Chucks posts. They dont know alot of things on a professional level!
"This is a joke subject. None of these people give two shits about Khasshogi or foreign journalists."
Since you have a small mind, I doubt you have a Moby Dick. You leave women disgusted, and unsatisfied.
You don't give "two shits" about anything but feeding your ego and your big stomach. What a pathetic worm of a human being you are. How did you get that way/
Yes, [Saudi Arabia] are [a US client state]. They are almost completely dependent on the US for their security.
Complete nonsense. You might as well call Turkey a puppet state of the US because Turkey belongs to NATO. Nobody is buying the sophistry of your argument.
" where were they when Khalid Sheik Mohammed was sawing journalist Daniel Pearl's head off with a rusty hacksaw and filming it?"
Thats an easy one.
The Ingas and LLR's were blaming Bush.
Naturally.
I do give Trumpit a little credit here.
As soon as his/her nonsense was exposed as predictably vacuous he/she immediatelyabandoned the BS lefty line and flexed to ad hominem!
Trumpit is more adaptive than Inga!
"During his conversation with The Times, Mr. Trump was uncharacteristically guarded"
I believe the President, like all Presidents, is "characteristically" guarded all the time.
(Or is this new Secret Service scandal?)
@Achilles:
It is pretty cool how out of the hundreds of foreign journalists killed this year by various dictators Khasshogi is the "journalist" we care about.
According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, 22 journalists have been murdered in 2018. Ten of those were in Afghanistan, seven were in Latin America, three in India, one in Libya, one in Europe, one in Syria, and four in the USA (all staff at the Capital Gazette). Governments are not suspected in any of the killings.
How a long time ME spook and Muslim Brotherhood agent somehow becomes a "journalist" is an awesome transformation.
They are not mutually exclusive. Khashoggi has been in trouble with the regime in the past over his editorializing.
Farmer is a dishonest hack that wants the US to fail at everything abroad so he can feel like his stupid isolationist position is superior. This includes lying/purposely being obtuse about the motives of countries like Iran and Turkey who can never do anything wrong.
Seeing you accuse someone of dishonesty is laughable given your serial inability to render my arguments in an honest fashion. I do not advocate an "isolationist position." And please quote one thing that I have lied about.
@Leland:
Complete nonsense. You might as well call Turkey a puppet state of the US because Turkey belongs to NATO. Nobody is buying the sophistry of your argument.
I never said that Saudi Arabia was a "puppet state," which is not the same thing as a client state. As you point out, Turkey is a treaty ally through NATO. We have no such similar arrangement with Saudi Arabia. But we do have a relationship with Saudi Arabia in which there is an implicit agreement in which we provide them with arms and diplomatic support, and they support various regional preferences of ours. That is the nature of a patron-client dynamic.
I do not think there should even be a NATO anymore, let alone one with Turkey inside of it.
But your opinion isn't reality, for example:
The Obama administration sold billions of dollars of arms to the Saudis and supported their launching of the war on Yemen. Rather than reversing course, Trump has merely doubled down on Obama administration blunders.
Trump has cut imports to Saudi Arabia nearly $2 billion (more than a 10% drop) since Obama, and exports are less than a 1/3rd of 2013. This according to the US Census. Trump hasn't doubled anything with Saudi Arabia.
Well this sucks.
@Farmer, you were right and I was wrong regarding the origin of the 1979 oil "crisis" (as Wikipedia calls it). The oil embargo of 1973 was due to Saudi Arabia being in a snit with the Nixon administration over its support for Israel, and the oil crisis of 1979 was due to Iran ceasing its oil production.
That does not change my belief that Jamal Kashoggi is a good jihadist at last.
I never said that Saudi Arabia was a "puppet state,"
If you simply re-read what I quoted, you will note that I, nor anyone else in the thread if you care to search, claimed you said such a thing. You are claiming that the Saudi Arabia is some "client state" of the US and therefore the US is somehow responsible for their actions, which it is not.
But we do have a relationship with Saudi Arabia in which there is an implicit agreement in which we provide them with arms and diplomatic support, and they support various regional preferences of ours. That is the nature of a patron-client dynamic.
You can almost say the same thing about Turkey. But instead, you said that you don't believe their should be a NATO or Turkey in it, which is a fine opinion but in fact NATO does exist and Turkey is part of it. Thus, one can say the US has a relationship with Turkey in which there is an explicit agreement in which we provide them with arms and diplomatic support. We have two air bases in Turkey.
@Leland:
Trump has cut imports to Saudi Arabia nearly $2 billion (more than a 10% drop) since Obama, and exports are less than a 1/3rd of 2013. This according to the US Census. Trump hasn't doubled anything with Saudi Arabia.
I did not say he "doubled anything." I said that he had doubled down on certain policies. The Obama administration sold the Saudis billions of dollars worth of arms and supported them in the Yemen War. Trump has taken both policies and amplified them. Even deals Trump touted had been negotiated several years earlier.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, you were right and I was wrong regarding the origin of the 1979 oil "crisis" (as Wikipedia calls it).
It was a minor error, and I understand that it wasn't really consequential to the argument.
That does not change my belief that Jamal Kashoggi is a good jihadist at last.
Except there is no evidence that he was involved with jihadism. Figures like bin Laden and al-Zawahiri explicitly reject Khashoggi's model.
NYT said" During his conversation with The Times, Mr. Trump was uncharacteristically guarded....
PRESIDENT Trump not Mr. Trump.
Like it or not. President.
@Leland:
If you simply re-read what I quoted, you will note that I, nor anyone else in the thread if you care to search, claimed you said such a thing. You are claiming that the Saudi Arabia is some "client state" of the US and therefore the US is somehow responsible for their actions, which it is not.
You said that referring to Saudi Arabia as a client state was akin to calling "a puppet state of the US." That is not an apt analogy. Yes, Saudi Arabia is a client state of the US. No, it does not make them "somehow responsible for their actions," but it does certainly increase our degree of culpability. Especially when their actions are being carried out with our express approval, support, and assistance.
You can almost say the same thing about Turkey.
Of course. With Turkey they arrangement is explicit, in the form of the NATO treaty. There is no such formal arrangement with Saudi Arabia. That is part of what distinguishes treaty allies from client states.
I did not say he "doubled anything."
I gave the exact quote in which you did.
I said that he had doubled down on certain policies.
What policies?
The Obama administration sold the Saudis billions of dollars worth of arms and supported them in the Yemen War.
It isn't this policy, because Trump is selling less to Saudi Arabia than Obama. So Trump didn't double this policy.
Trump has taken both policies and amplified them.
You provide no evidence of this. The US Census says we are trading less with Saudi Arabia than we were last year, which was less than the year prior. We are importing and exporting less from Saudi Arabia than in any point during the Obama Administration, without even adjusting for inflation. So there is nothing tangible to back your claim of Trump amplifying anything with Saudi Arabia.
Yes, Saudi Arabia is a client state of the US. No, it does not make them "somehow responsible for their actions," but it does certainly increase our degree of culpability.
Nonsense.
@Leland:
I gave the exact quote in which you did.
"Doubled down" has nothing to do with a literal doubling of anything. From the dictionary: strengthen one's commitment to a particular strategy or course of action.
It isn't this policy, because Trump is selling less to Saudi Arabia than Obama. So Trump didn't double this policy.
We are talking about "arms sales" not general trade between the country. Trump has touted the Saudi Arabian arms deal has a big achievement in his relations with Saudi Arabia. As I said, some of these arms deals had been in the works for several years prior. Support for the Yemen War also began in the Obama administration. Trump has similarly amplified this position.
Both of these positions were wrong for the Obama administration to take. And Trump is wrong to continue them.
@Leland:
Nonsense.
Well I must admit that is a convincing argument.
So is it your opinion that we do not have any responsibility in Yemen even though we have troops on the ground in Saudi Arabia and we provide them with logistics, intelligence, and aerial refueling?
"Doubled down" has nothing to do with a literal doubling of anything.
Wrong. It certainly does mean that, literally, when you are playing certain card games [Blackjack] or betting.
Mirriam-Webster: to double the original bid in blackjack in exchange for only one more card
Also:
The term is increasingly used as a media euphemism when political figures tell bald-faced lies and when confronted with contradictory statements, the politician not only fails to retract their claims but instead expresses an increased certainty in their truth.
Farmer: "So is it your opinion that we do not have any responsibility in Yemen even though we have troops on the ground in Saudi Arabia and we provide them with logistics, intelligence, and aerial
refueling?"
Responsibility for what?
If a child in Yemen swats a butterfly is that on us?
Its interesting you left ypur question that wide open.
@Drago:
Responsibility for what?
For the actions we take in supporting and assisting the Saudis in their war on Yemen.
If a child in Yemen swats a butterfly is that on us?
No.
So is it your opinion that we do not have any responsibility in Yemen even though we have troops on the ground in Saudi Arabia and we provide them with logistics, intelligence, and aerial refueling?
More nonsense. Nonsense has a specific meaning, and Yemen is not in its definition. I've haven't mentioned Yemen once previously in this thread, so your attempt to assert I made an opinion in regards to Yemen is... nonsense. Most of your arguments in this thread are nonsense. You conflate concepts. You downplay facts as irrelevant, and then make assertions backed by next to nothing and then inflate them as significant points. These things you do, there is a word to describe them. That word is nonsense.
@Leland:
Let's review:
You said: "You are claiming that the Saudi Arabia is some "client state" of the US and therefore the US is somehow responsible for their actions, which it is not."
I said: "Yes, Saudi Arabia is a client state of the US. No, it does not make them "somehow responsible for their actions," but it does certainly increase our degree of culpability."
You said" Nonsense."
I then gave Yemen as an example of "degree of culpability" that you claimed was nonsense.
Farmer: "For the actions we take in supporting and assisting the Saudis in their war on Yemen."
Are you being purposely obtuse?
No one is arguing that we are not responsible for the actions we take. What you are getting to is that we are responsible for any actions taken by the Saudi's in Yemen and, I'll bet, actions taken by Saudi Yemeni allies in Yemen.
Which would be BS of course.
Farmer: "I then gave Yemen as an example of "degree of culpability" that you claimed was nonsense."
A nonsensical charge based on meaningless terms wrapped in nothingness.
Which, it appears, is par for the course for you.
"degree of culpability", for undefined things, by undefined others.
Waste. Of. Time.
@Drago:
What you are getting to is that we are responsible for any actions taken by the Saudi's in Yemen and, I'll bet, actions taken by Saudi Yemeni allies in Yemen.
Which would be BS of course.
That is not what I said. I said, "No, it does not make them
somehow responsible for their actions,' but it does certainly increase our degree of culpability."
And we certainly do have a degree of culpability when we publicly support, assist, and participate in a war.
Farmer: "And we certainly do have a degree of culpability when we publicly support, assist, and participate in a war."
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
"Sell it to the Air Force Mayo. Sell it to the Air Force"....
@Drago:
A nonsensical charge based on meaningless terms wrapped in nothingness.
"Degree of" and "culpability" are actually quite well understood terms. To draw an example from criminal law, see the concept of accessory to a crime.
Why is Iran implicated when Hamas attacks Israel even if Iran is not involved in carrying out the attack? Because Iran is implicated through its public support and arming of Hamas.
@Drago:
zzzzzzzz
Devastating counterargument as always. If you want to claim that the US has no responsibility in Yemen, go ahead and make the argument. You just have to ignore empirical reality.
Why is Iran implicated when Hamas attacks Israel even if Iran is not involved in carrying out the attack? Because Iran is implicated through its public support and arming of Hamas.
Oh really, ok then; all of Saudi Arabia's strategic missiles were built and sold by China. So China is implicated in this missing journalist? Half of the Saudi Navy is French made vessels, so France is implicated too?
Farmer: ""Degree of" and "culpability" are actually quite well understood terms."
LOL
Keep digging, though no one will care.
Nor should they.
Farmer: "Devastating counterargument as always."
Its the one you deserve.
Unfortunately for Farmer, he has a degree of culpability in the responses I provided to him.
Discuss.
@Drago:
Keep digging, though no one will care.
And keep being totally unresponsive. Let's try one more thought experiment.
Someone tells you they want to commit a mass murder and then you help them obtain weapons, teach them how to use them, help them pick out a target, and then drive them to the location, where they commence the crime.
Do you have any culpability for that crime?
Another example. Why is providing "material support to terrorists" a crime? If you don't actually carry out the terrorism, why is simply providing them support criminal? Is it because by providing such support, you have culpability?
Farmer: "Someone .........zzzzzzzzzzzz"
All I heard was "cheeseburger".
@Drago:
Oh, Drago. Go on and say it. "I. Was. Wrong." Go ahead. It will be a good little character builder for you.
Farmer: "Oh, Drago. Go on and say it. "I. Was. Wrong." Go ahead. It will be a good little character builder for you."
You should simply take a degree of culpability prior to advising others on what would build character.
I've been looking around and there are degrees of culpability everywhere!
Degrees of culpability everywhere but not a drop of responsibility to drink.
Alas.
Had Hillary won Saudi Arabia will be experiencing *Spring* now with Muslim Brotherhood ascending, Kashoggi would be pipeline a la Abedin.
Accessory:
One who, without being present at the commission of an offense, becomes guilty of such offense, not as a chief actor, but as a participant, as by command, advice, instigation, or concealment; either before or after the fact or commission.
One who aids, abets, commands, or counsels another in the commission of a crime.
How quickly Farmer transitions from "degrees of culpability" to accessories in the commission of a crime.
As expected.
LOL
And it didn't even take that long to get there.
Fantastic.
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