Christopher Columbus’s spirit of determination & adventure has provided inspiration to generations of Americans. On #ColumbusDay, we honor his remarkable accomplishments as a navigator, & celebrate his voyage into the unknown expanse of the Atlantic Ocean. https://t.co/Mg3dxRfPuN
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 8, 2018
I’m with you Amy https://t.co/OA32dUrKfs
— David Crosby (@thedavidcrosby) October 7, 2018
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1 – 200 of 214 Newer› Newest»Almost as significant for Spain, it is also the year the last Muslims were driven out of Spain.
Columbus Ohio city offices are open today, for the first time, I think I heard on the news.
Jack Wayne--and Spain expelled the Jews
Every day is Colobus day.
It's also indigenous peoples day, traditionally celebrated with firewater.
One skeptical group believed the world was round but like a pie plate.
Gf said she'd been around the world and it's flat everywhere.
https://twitter.com/afbranco/status/917594418667970560
In a sane world, that tweet would be a perfectly normal statement coming from the President of the United States of America. In our world, it is going to be seen as a nuclear troll, and the RRRREEEEEEEEs will deafen us all.
Norwegian Vikings beat him to the Americas by almost 500 years. The US should celebrate Leif Erikson day instead, but the ethnic Italian vote prohibits that.
I don't think "the last Muslims were driven out of Spain" - just that the last Muslim governed territory was re-conquered and restored to Spanish (and Catholic) rule.
Viking conquest of Maine, _Runestruck_ by Calvin Trillin.
No "Vikings" involved, except possibly one on Leif Erikson's crew and he was a German, not Norse.
A couple of the sagas state that the Greenlanders met some Irish somewhere along the coast of today's Canada, and that could very well be so.
Yeah, but after Columbus discovered it, it stayed discovered.
posted again as it is worth reading twice.
The Portuguese discovery of Brazil was, after all, the accidental by-product of their ongoing exploration of Africa. The English-speaking world, on the other hand, began its expansion into North America as a consequence of John Cabot's voyage of 1497.
It makes more sense to think of the European encounters with the Americas as three distinct main streams: one was the Spanish movement to the Caribbean, Mexico, Peru, and ultimately other areas, stemming from Columbus's voyage; another was the Portuguese movement to Brazil, which was intimately linked to their explorations of Africa predating Columbus; and the third was the stream of peoples from the British Isles and ultimately elsewhere to North America to found the nations of the North American Anglosphere. These three distinct streams founded the three principal cultural-linguistic communities of the Americas.
I remember the Vikings left an inscription for their visit. Cold. Huge potholes.
Potholes were a chronic complaint to the town council, in the Trillin story.
"Let's just for today tweet about our pets, music we love, restaurants, movies, nature. Good things. Just for today."
Let's just for today stop trying to control what the rest of us legally want to tweet, read or do.
Nothing in Trump"s tweet about being first. Nothing factually wrong, either. Let's sit back and enjoy the history!
"Indigenous People's" day in the Bay Area.
I'm lobbying to change it to "Cro-Magnon" Day. They came before the Indigneous people, and rarely get any recognition.
And liver transplants. We should tweet about liver transplants.
The pre Colombian presence of sweet potatoes on Pacific islands suggests there was contact between Polynesians and South America, perhaps as early as 700AD.
Just for today.
They won't make it.
Michael K: I like your “three streams” approach. Big tent, no childish need to claim precedence. Let’s do history!
If I may put in a plug, Mystic Seaport is hosting a fun exhibit on the “Vindolanda Map” which purports to offer 16th-C evidence of Viking discovery of NA circa 1000. Well, no kidding. It did happen. But the map is still (almost certainly) fake. The Seaport exhibit explores the forensics of fakery and truth-seeking, and the intense cultural pressure to force our beliefs into one or another cramped and exclusive channel. Hey, how about “all of the above”? It’s a big hemisphere, and the blind men can all be right in their claims about the elephant.
Trump admires The Admiral for bold courage and the positive thinking. His most impressive feat was finding the return trade winds by going north , then across, and then south to Portugal. That let Chris spread the news of a New World out there to go plunder and return from...and like Trump his leadership made Deplorables follow and made Europe Great Again.
Amexpat said...The US should celebrate Leif Erikson day instead, but the ethnic Italian vote prohibits that.
Actually, Leif Erikson Day is scheduled for Tuesday, the day after the late arrival of some Italian dude.
No "Vikings" involved, except possibly one on Leif Erikson's crew and he was a German, not Norse.
Sounds like an alternate history. I won't dismiss it outright, but if you're going to make a claim that's counter to what most historians believe, you should provide some links.
The evidence of a Viking settlement in L'anse aux Meadows is considered conclusive by most historians. Within the last few years strong evidence of another, smaller Viking settlement in southwestern Newfoundland has been found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/magazine/2016/11-12/space-archaeology-viking-settlement-excavation-canada/
Vikings could sail too , but they kept the fishing riches off the Grand Banks secret.That failed to help Europe.
Ha! I looked at Crosby's Twitter feed- retweets don't count, apparently.
I read years ago a female scientist had a theory that part? Of the Hopi? language was based on Chinese. They share characters\words. Of course the science was settled that that wasn’t true.
It's the providential arc of history: a people develops, they explore; they seek expansion; if it's a Christian nation, they are driven by the missionary mandate, to be a force for advancement. So much winning.
Because the Muslims lost control of the rest of Spain, Columbus was possible.
Not all Jews were expelled. Some were killed, some forced to convert. And interesting story a while back said that some Spanish and Mexican Catholics found that some of their practice were actually kind to Jewish practices.
Reported this year, they think they found one of Columbus's ships.
Climate Change forced the Norse (not "Viking" - the term refers to the raiding, not peoples) to leave Greenland. So the areas in Newfoundland could not be sustained.
Yes Trump's tweet will cause some heads to exploded. On that same note, Captain (damn, Senior moment - forgot his last name. He is married to Giffords) was forced to apologize for saying something nice about Winston Churchill.
What a sad time we are living through
They came before the Indigneous people, and rarely get any recognition.
Jim Bennett referred to them as "Siberian Americans." I like that. Also, they killed all the horses as soon as they arrived.
In fourteen hundred ninety-two;
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
The Nina, the pinta, and the santa maria.
Some experts argue the Vikings also explored Africa citing as evidence the recent discovery in Tanzania of a pith helmet with horns.
The problem is Erickson, came, left, and never stayed. IRC, there were Viking settlements in Labrador or Newfoundland, but they all died of disease or wiped out by Indians.
Almost as significant for Spain, it is also the year the last Muslims were driven out of Spain.
The two things are not unrelated. Isabella had the money to fund Columbus's voyage because the war again the Muslims was over.
"These three distinct streams founded the three principal cultural-linguistic communities of the Americas."
French Canada might possibly have something to say about that.
In fourteen hundred and ninety three
Columbus sailed the dark green sea
Handy mnemmonic.
This is the day the Indigians discovered Columbus.
Its amazing that while Columbus and the Spaniards were colonizing the New World, the Ottoman Turks were taking over the Balkans and laying siege to Malta and Vienna. Meanwhile, the Barbary Pirates were raiding the Italian, French and Spanish coasts and taking Christians back to North Africa as Slaves. Even Ireland was attacked in 1631, and a hundred Irish sold into slavery.
Tip of the Day: Don't bad-mouth Columbus in an Italian neighborhood. Nuff sed.
I had a friend on Facebook call Columbus a "piece of shit." last year on Columbus Day.
As if he were a 15th century European he'd be sooper-enlightened and not some regular schmo who believed what most of the day believed.
lax immigration laws werent so problematic as they are now
Norwegian Vikings beat him to the Americas by almost 500 years.
A discovery that isn't published isn't a discovery. Leif the Lucky didn't write down anything that we know of. The only "record" were two Icelandic sags written about two hundred years later and a letter written by a German monk 75 years after the fact.
Columbus didn't exactly publish his discovery, either. He wanted to keep the whole thing secret from everyone except his royal Spanish patrons, but the story got out anyway. Columbus never figured out he had not reached Asia. The first to do that was Amerigo Vespucci in 1505, who only needed Eratosthenes and copies of Columbus's logs to prove he didn't. Vespucci didn't get rich, but he did get his name attached to a whole hemisphere.
[They] killed all the horses as soon as they arrived.
There were six-foot-tall carnivorous bids here that avenged the horses occasionally.
For all the climate change types out there, the Vikings actually raised grapes and made wine in Vinland (now Greenland with an ice cap).
[They] killed all the horses as soon as they arrived.
Much later the horses came back with Spaniards on their backs and got them Injuns back real hard.
And for further enlightenment explore the results of the various European expansions. The Anglos and French to the North, the Spaniards and Portuguese to the South.
In a decade, MLK day will cease to exist because King was a philanderer who abused women.
Lulz... Just went to az sweetheart's twit stream. Very first reply is an antiTrump meme, followed by a lot of pet pics and people writing how angry and filled with rage they are...in other words, just the usual Democrat party members socializing.
How I celebrate Indigenous People's Day:
1. Travel to the next town over.
2. Kidnap one of their virile, young males at spearpoint.
3. Lead him to the apex of my City Hall steps.
4. Cut out his heart.
5. Behead him.
6. Eat some of the heart to assume his strength.
7. Kick his lifeless body down the steps.
...grapes...Vinland
Just about every Norse scholar agrees that Vinland does not mean the land of wine or the land of grapes. The only source for the grape myth was Adam of Bremen, a German cleric with an imperfect command of Old Norse, particularly its western dialects.
"rehajm said...
Just for today.
They won't make it to lunchtime."
FIFY
Pet pictures > history
Sounds good to me
Best part? These deranged specimens are so eager to self-identify. Please memo HR to build a list of Never Hire.
CWJ says: French Canada might possibly have something to say about that.
Yes, but it would be in French.
Many years ago Harry Harrison (who could write both very good and very bad books) wrote The Technicolor Time Machine wherein the inventor of the first time machine takes it to Hollywood after nobody else would believe him. One producer backed him because they could film historical epics without having to pay for actors or sets. Their first project was to film Leif Erikson's discovery of America.
The problem was when they went back to the 10th century they found Lief was perfectly happy and had no intention on setting off on such a crazy venture. Long story short, the film crew had to end up causing Erikson's voyage to have anything to film.
Funny book, and the ending is classic.
@LYNNDH:
That was Mark Kelly's twin brother Scott Kelly who tweeted the Churchill quote before deleting and apologizing for offending the lefties.
Stan Freeberg, 1961.
Native: You have a dream?
Columbus: Yes, I do.
Native: Would you like to talk about it?
Columbus: I certainly would. My dream is to open the first Italian restaurant in your country. Give me some real food: starches, spaghetti, cholesterol-all the better things. That’s called progress, you see?
Native: Hmmmm.
Columbus: Now right here would be a good location for the restaurant. Ocean view and all that. Is there room for a parking lot?
Native: You kidding? Whole country is parking lot.
Columbus: I s’pose. Well, I’d like to put a little deposit down on the property here.
Native: Okay.
Columbus: I only have a few dubloons on me, so if you’ll direct me to the nearest bank, I’ll get a check cashed.
Native: You out of luck today. Banks closed.
Columbus: Oh? Why?
Native: Columbus Day.
St. Brendan the Navigator of Ireland beat them all...
Scott Kelly... tweeted the Churchill quote before deleting and apologizing for offending the lefties.
Good to know it wasn't the astronaut and fighter jock.
Rule of Life #17: Never apologize for anything. Now more than ever. If someone complains that you've offended him/her (usually her) give out the mightest belly laugh you can summon, and say "Mission accomplished. How else can I offend you today?" Take pride in your words/deeds and make obnoxiously loud and crudely derisive sport of anyone who complains.
Speaking of Brazil, how about this ?
Mr. Bolsonaro, 63 years old, a staunch defender of Brazil’s past dictatorship who has alienated much of the electorate with offensive comments about women and gay people, clinched 46% of the vote, just shy of the majority he needed to win outright with 99% of votes counted Sunday night.
But he swamped the second-place finisher, Fernando Haddad of the leftist Workers’ Party, who had 29%. A force for much of this century, the Workers’ Party is now tarnished by a graft scandal and Brazil’s deepest recession during its tenure in power. The founder, former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, is now in prison.
They are trying so hard to beat the honest guy.
He could have won outright on Sunday, he said, if it weren’t for a series of problems at polling booths, including long lines that prompted elderly voters to forgo voting.
Meanwhile, Mr. Haddad called on other parties to join him in the second round in “defense of democracy” to defeat Mr. Bolsonaro. “We don’t carry guns—we will use the force of our argument to defend Brazil and its people,” he said, flanked by members of his Workers’ Party.
But here in Rio de Janeiro, like across much of Brazil, voters are determined to back Mr. Bolsonaro.
“First and foremost, the government needs to stop stealing from the country,” said Bruno Norte, 40, a pilot from Rio’s glitzy Copacabana neighborhood.
Sound familiar ?
St. Brendan the Navigator of Ireland beat them all...
I doubt it. There's no trace of fried Mars bars in Precolumbian America.
KnownUnknown: don't forget to have sex with him and exchange communicable diseases.
Gahrie: "Isabella had the money to fund Columbus's voyage because the war again the Muslims was over."
So many lefty triggering issues with that statement.
Flip Wilson said it best in 1967:
Columbus Discovers Ray Charles
Didn't know Supreme Court such a big issue in Brazil.
Colombus was a genocidal maniac.
"Mission accomplished. How else can I offend you today?"
More grammatically, it should be "Mission accomplished. How else may I offend you today?" After all, you're asking permission to further vex the already sorely vex, not asking someone to specify your ability to offend. I'd assume my ability to offended is off the charts, as it were.
And Alex cannot spell, along with his other near-infinite deficiencies.
The Alex theme song Inga uses it, too. Ritmo uses it, but with back-masking.
The Charles Mann book 1493 documents the world changing importance of the discovery of the Americas by Columbus. It brought potatoes and corn to Europe creating a nutritional revolution that led ultimately to the industrial revolution and the economic miracles of the 20th century. It opened up trade between Central/South America and China. He has a 600 page book, and I'm not doing it justice.
Did you know it's 200 years since the last trial in Spain for someone accused of being a secret Jew?
Alex said...
"Colombus was a genocidal maniac."
I don't believe that Colombus intended genocide. It was an accident.
Good to know it wasn't the astronaut and fighter jock.
He's an astronaut, too, but I don't know about his jock.
In the long term, the Spanish Empire (and the bullion) didn't do the Spaniards much good, but it was probably fun while it lasted.
Blogger readering said...
Didn't know Supreme Court such a big issue in Brazil.
No, just leftist politicians going to prison. We are behind.
9 reasons Christopher Columbus was a murderer, tyrant, and scoundrel
Did you know it's 200 years since the last trial in Spain for someone accused of being a secret Jew?
No. But 1818 seems shamefully late all things considered.
I did discover that there is a traditional Spanish dish intended to reveal secret Jews and fake Conversos, but I can't find the name of the dish. Maybe it's Paella.
Alex is too lazy to think of his own reasons. And he probably asked his mommy how to spell the name.
Blogger Jupiter said...
Alex said...
"Colombus was a genocidal maniac."
I don't believe that Colombus intended genocide. It was an accident.
Alex should read "The 10,000 Year Explosion."
That would help you understand that a population isolated for 5,000 years is susceptible to diseases they have not been exposed to.
The same thing happened to Polynesians in the 19th century when exposed to measles.
Did you know it's 200 years since the last trial in Spain for someone accused of being a secret Jew?
Did you know it's been only a couple of days since the last trial in the US for someone accused in the US of an imaginary juvenile sex crime?
I did discover that there is a traditional Spanish dish intended to reveal secret Jews and fake Conversos, but I can't find the name of the dish. Maybe it's Paella.
I should think it would be a pork dish of some kind. Maybe pernil.
I’m assuming these are related; demonstrates that some people are just nasty people. Something that we as a country can get behind as a single entity, and discuss the historical merits of said holiday, but no. Let’s just be nasty about it.
mockturtle,
I resisted writing that at the time, but thanks for completing the thought. I hoped someone would do that.
Garhrie: re point that Spanish budget freed up for exploration in 1492:
Today is the Catholic feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. The feast was added to the calendar to honor her supposed role in the 1571 RC Spanish victory over the Ottomans at Lepanto.
In the long term, the Spanish Empire (and the bullion) didn't do the Spaniards much good.
True. They bought everything except the ability to make much of anything, so they missed out compared to France and Britain. Having the idiot branch of the Hapsburgs in charge didn't help, either.
In 1492 China had a fleet ready to go in an exploratory mission but the Emperor in an economy move cancelled the mission. Suppose they had gone through with the exploratory voyage. There would probably be no Indigenous Peoples Day today and blacks and whites would have stayed in their respective shitholes. Why is it that every lefty jerkoff who denounces Columbus Day and white colonization just doesn't pack their bags and get the hell out of the country?
I have today off because it is Indigenous People's and Italian Americans Day.
Trying to please everyone probably satisfies no one.
The feast was added to the calendar to honor her supposed role in the 1571 RC Spanish victory over the Ottomans at Lepanto.
I imagine Cervantes did more for the Christians at Lepanto than any invisible chick.
Mark O.
I loved those Stan Freeberg routines. The buying of Manhattan "What, you thought you bought a furnished island?. Whole island is concrete except for square in center." The declaration of independence "...life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff."
Why is it that every lefty jerkoff who denounces Columbus Day and white colonization just doesn't pack their bags and get the hell out of the country?
Low T.
There are still couple old Columbus Day holdouts in the very heart of San Francisco: North Beach’s Caffe Trieste and Lawrence Ferlinghetti. Long may they both live.
Let’s just for today tweet about our pets, music we love, restaurants, movies, nature. Good things. Just for today.
I told you all the leftists would be playing “can’t we all just get along” leading up to the election after going batshit insane.
Here we are.
Phillip II wasted the gold from the New World on religious wars in Europe.
Nothing was done to build an economy in Spain. Finally, The War of the Spanish Succession, left it poor and backward.
The rise of England followed.
Let’s just for today tweet about our pets, music we love,
That's what I use Facebook for. And my own blog.
Thank you, Christopher Columbus and the Christians for getting here before that butcher Muhammad.
The Spanish bullion was very beneficial.. For all those other countries that actually made stuff and ended up with in when the Spanish bought stuff.
Surprising how powerful Spain and Portugal were back then, and now they are both nothing burgers.
The Admiral of the Ocean Sea has become the test case for the Great Man theory of history. Everybody that hates him, has no reason to hate him except for his intelligent greatness that he used to do his job.
Ergo: Trump empathises with the great Genoan Admiral.
I did discover that there is a traditional Spanish dish intended to reveal secret Jews and fake Conversos, but I can't find the name of the dish. Maybe it's Paella.
No, Paella is a dish intended to reveal sceptical Americans.
From a tour of Spain I was on:
man -- I don't know, I don't like the looks of that.
wife -- Oh, come on, it's mostly rice
man -- Then what's that (points)
wife -- That's a raisin
man -- It's got a tail
wife -- OK, it's a raisin with a tail
The Comanches and Apaches also thank Columbus' friends for bringing horses. Without Spanish horses, their mounted cavalry hunting the Buffalo and the Mexicans peasants would not have worked.
"Thank you, Christopher Columbus and the Christians for getting here before that butcher Muhammad."
Heh. You think Columbus and the Christians didn't do plenty of butchering (as well as enslaving)?
(BTW, Columbus never touched foot in North America. He landed in the Bahamas and the coasts of Central and Southern America.)
If you're so upset at Columbus - go back to Europe where you came from.
But of course, you're not going to do that. You'll enjoy all the benefits of "genocide" while pretending to be morally superior.
Typical Leftist asshole.
"Surprising how powerful Spain and Portugal were back then, and now they are both nothing burgers."
'tis the way of all powerful countries and empires. Kings today, nothing burgers tomorrow. Happened to Rome, happened to Great Britain, happened to many others. And it will happen again.
The real lesson of Columbus is don't trust immigrants.
"Surprising how powerful Spain and Portugal were back then, and now they are both nothing burgers."
That's because neither country had large amounts of coal/iron or businessmen who wanted to make lots of money. So they fell behind during the industrial revolution, and never caught up.
Plus, the Royal Navy beat them like a drum for 200 years.
Spain & Portugal today are First World countries. Like most of Europe, would be in the bottom tier of US States, but in the sweep of human history, an enviable status.
Once they ruled the world.. And now, well, things are still pretty good.
I, for one, didn't come from Europe. I was born here.
I'm not "upset" at Columbus: he's long dead and his actions are history. However, one mustn't valorize those who commit crimes, but must recognize them. Every understanding of who they were and what happened then and later is thereby later distorted into lies and illusions. As a nation, we have an unhealthy tendency to want to turn others (and ourselves) into heroes and to essentially worship them. Perhaps this is common in all cultures and countries. It's pernicious.
Robert Cook - I feel Columbus Day should be renamed "Indigenous Peoples Day". What do you think?
Robert Cook said...
"As a nation, we have an unhealthy tendency to want to turn others (and ourselves) into heroes and to essentially worship them. Perhaps this is common in all cultures and countries. It's pernicious."
Cookie, the idea that a trait common to all human cultures is "pernicious" would seem to be merely antihuman. Is it your contention that the only proper way to exist is some way that no one has ever existed? What would that look like?
Alex asks Cookie: I feel Columbus Day should be renamed "Indigenous Peoples Day". What do you think?
Alex feels but Cookie thinks. Alex must be a female.
Is there anything you leftists won't bitch about? Anything at all?
It's Columbus Day. Big, fucking deal.
Long before Columbus arrived, indigenous peoples here slaughtered each other constantly. Mayans anyone? Funny that we still have Indian reservations. I doubt if Muhammad would have let that happen.
Jupiter, Cookie is a devout idealist, well known for his disbelief in human nature.
"In a decade, MLK day will cease to exist because King was a philanderer who abused women."
In two decades, Blacks will deride Black Democrat apologists as Toms.
Robert Cook said...
"I'm not "upset" at Columbus: he's long dead and his actions are history. However, one mustn't valorize those who commit crimes, but must recognize them."
When I was growing up, Americans celebrated Colombus Day with the idea that Colombus' actions were achievements of great difficulty, accomplished against heavy odds, and also that they were fundamental to the existence of our nation. I confess I am unable to distinguish between your regarding them as "crimes" and your regarding the existence of my country as a crime. Is there any daylight between those views?
Blogger Alex said...
Robert Cook - I feel Columbus Day should be renamed "Indigenous Peoples Day". What do you think?
If we must act like fools, why not "Siberian Americans' Day
"I'm not "upset" at Columbus: he's long dead and his actions are history. However, one mustn't valorize those who commit crimes, but must recognize them."
What Columbus did were not crimes when he did them, just like the Aztecs weren't committing crimes when they cut the hearts out of living people. Yet today Mexico is proud of their Aztec heritage, including Aztec symbols on their flag. If Mexico can celebrate the Aztec, the U.S. can celebrate Columbus.
Americans celebrated Colombus Day with the idea that Colombus' actions were achievements of great difficulty, accomplished against heavy odds,
Achievement is out. Affirmative action is in.
Just don't stand under a bridge one of them designed.
Amexpat said...The US should celebrate Leif Erikson day instead, but the ethnic Italian vote prohibits that.
Common sense prohibits that since the Vikings knowledge of the Americas had no impact on the formation of the United States.
"Jupiter, Cookie is a devout idealist, well known for his disbelief in human nature."
Cookie reminds me very much of my in-a-perfect-world Libertarian friends. Funny that such distant ideologies should so strongly share the same delusion. Still, I'm glad he's here.
"In a decade, MLK day will cease to exist because King was a philanderer who abused women."
To happen female would have to surpass black in the victim hierarchy so I'm going with unlikely.
Is it your contention that the only proper way to exist is some way that no one has ever existed?
Yes.
What would that look like?
The New Soviet Man.
"To happen female would have to surpass black in the victim hierarchy so I'm going with unlikely."
Oh, dude! White female has never been surpassed by Black in the victim hierarchy. And, yes, that is down to White men.
Gotta protect the herd.
Or one can sing, like Neil Young, about 'Cortez the Killer' while praising the Aztecs.
"To happen female would have to surpass black in the victim hierarchy so I'm going with unlikely."
I rather think it is a question if a professional 'victim', whether female or black, surpasses the usefulness of a MLK for the progressive cause.
"In a decade, MLK day will cease to exist because King was a philanderer who abused women."
It hasn't done Bill Clinton any harm.
Instead of a monolithic indigenous people's day, let's remember the nations, tribes, and people aborted, enslaved, and oppressed by the indigenous people. The many, the forgotten, the people who were not invited to the indigenous bloc party. Or we can recognize individual character, responsibility, and that what was done cannot be undone and discover a conservation of principles that will mitigate its recurrence.
MLK day will cease to exist because King was a philanderer who abused women
No man or woman is free from original sin. MLK had positive and negative qualities. He can be remembered for both.
Speaking of positive and negative qualities, and to raise the controversy quota with cause, let's speak of Hitler and Nazis. Hitler was a leader for his people. He was a progressive in its contemporary denotation and connotation. For one, the Nazis were the original proponents of single-payer medical care and universal health care. And the trains ran on time. He was also a diversitist (i.e. color judgments or painting with broad sweeping strokes), politically congruent (i.e. selective exclusion), and ultimately liberal (i.e. divergent) in his disposition.
Wake me when the Canadians start tearing down statues of Jacques Cartier.
Cookie reminds me very much of my in-a-perfect-world Libertarian friends. Funny that such distant ideologies should so strongly share the same delusion. Still, I'm glad he's here.
X2
Common sense prohibits that since the Vikings knowledge of the Americas had no impact on the formation of the United States.
Common sense isn't always correct. As mentioned above, Columbus' voyage had more of an impact on Hispanic America and a minimal impact on the formation of the US.
Also, it is likely that the Vatican had knowledge of the Norse voyages to North America through contact with parishes in Greenland. There were ca. 5,000 Catholics, with 16 parishes and two monasteries at the height of the Norse settlement. The Vatican collected all sorts of information from emissaries and it's likely they would have relayed information about North America. Columbus had close contact with the Vatican and he could have learned about land to the west of Europe that had been found by the Norse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Greenland#Middle_Ages
Christopher Columbus’s spirit of determination & adventure has provided inspiration to generations of Americans. On #ColumbusDay, we honor his remarkable accomplishments as a navigator, & celebrate his voyage into the unknown expanse of the Atlantic Ocean. https://t.co/Mg3dxRfPuN
Am I the only one seeing heads exploding around the neighborhood? This is some Grand Master Trolling!! I bet you can hear his balls clang when he walks by.
As mentioned above, Columbus' voyage had more of an impact on Hispanic America and a minimal impact on the formation of the US.
Untrue as without the Columbus voyages the later voyages leading directly to the Anglo Diaspora would never have occurred.
Christopher Columbus... almost cut his hair.
Libertarian friends. Funny that such distant ideologies
The left-right nexus, where totalitarian and anarchist impulses coexist and reinforce each other.
What I never can quit get my head around about these 'Columbus Day Protesters' is that they don't realize they protest their own existence. That they delegitimize themselves.
It's the same thing when I try to understand abortionists.
Nicolas ovando waa the one who replaced Columbus, he was the one who proceeded with the liquidation of the carib, including their chieftain Harvey. Why isn't he a hate object?
Following up a related matter of historical rejection that Althouse has covered previously, it appears that the Mad City Council voted last week to overrule the Landmarks Commission and remove the stone that listed the dead buried at Confederate Rest. They had already removed a commemorative plaque.
When will they did up the bones and burn them?
If Althouse covered this latest vote I apologize for the repetition.
Who named Greenland, "Greenland"?
Seems like a practical joke.
The Lofgren tweet is interesting for what is leaves out of "Good things." It mentions pets, music, restaurants, movies, nature. It says nothing about people: family, community, neighborhood, and the like. It says a lot that she does not consider any people, or even groups of people, on the list of "Good things." Kinda sad for her (and anyone whose pet tops the list of Good things in their life).
(eaglebeak)
Will the City Council at least preserve a record of the Confederate dead who are buried there? Or are they going to take the approach the Nazis applied when overrunning Eastern Europe, and burn all the genealogical and historical records?
Pitting racism against misogyny not producing much insight.
Who named Greenland, "Greenland"?
It was Eric the Red (Leif's Dad) who wanted to entice other Icelanders to help him settle in Greenland. Greenland was actually greener then, due to a warm period. 3-400 years later Greenland would get much colder, leading to the end of the Norse settlement.
"Who named Greenland, "Greenland"?"
Eric the Red's marketing department.
Why just for today?
I love the ending of "Apocalypto". The young man has finally escaped the savage intent of the Mayans and arrives at the coast only to see wooden ship anchored in the harbor. the unspoken question is:
"Which is worse: The devil you know or the devil you don't know?"
Republicans - everybody knows that.. LOL
"Major Climate Report Describes a Strong Risk of Crisis as Early as 2040." - nytimes
Columbus was looking for gold in the New World, and destroyed the indigenous people in the process. Small minds are still with us today. Schlump, using his daddy's money, was looking for a pot of gold, too. When he was to stupid to make money legitimately, he manipulated his, and his family's tax returns to steal millions from the U.S. Treasury. Down with Columbus Day, and jail today for Trump and his rotten family for income tax evasion.
It's almost the 500 year anniversary of Hernan Cortes and the conquest of Mexico. I'm sure they'll be parades
My usual non sequitor. Another brilliant text by Trump- "Kavanaugh hoax" He just put the onus on the Dems to prove the charge! Now the Dems are on the hot seat!
Every year, I dance around the house to this -
Tres Carabelas - Trio los Panchos
But this is good too -
Tres Carabelas - Hermanas Fleta
https://lyricstranslate.com/es/hermanas-fleta-las-tres-carabelas-lyrics.html
"Un navegante atrevido
SaliĂł de Palos un dĂa
Iba con tres carabelas
La Pinta, la Niña y la Santa MarĂa..."
"It's almost the 500 year anniversary of Hernan Cortes and the conquest of Mexico. I'm sure they'll be parades"
There should be.
Maybe someone will play this - Conquest Theme - Newman
Sorry, bad link -
Tres Carabelas - Hermanas Fleta
Talk about genocide, East Asia gave us the bubonic plague, which killed about a third of Europe. And it was brought to the West by Mongol armies which were intent on conquering (colonizing) Europe and which committed what can only be characterized genocidal massacres of the populations in the lands they overran. Everywhere the Mongols passed through was laid waste and depopulated. And they left behind the bubonic plague. Brought it to the Crimea where it was taken to Western Europe by Venetian trade ships. It killed vastly more people than the diseases that Westerners inadvertently spread among the inhabitants of North America.
The Mongols were genocidal maniacs, straight up.
Also south Asia, i.e. India, gifted the West with cholera, another pandemic that had genocidal effects on the populations it afflicted.
MayBee said...
Why just for today?
It is a start.
Leftists got new marching orders today.
They were told to be nice and pretend they aren't drooling batshit crazy hate muppets.
It wont work.
They should have let Kavanaugh through and ignored Ford's obvious lies.
Oh, yeah, tobacco -- the Indians of North America introduced us to tobacco, hence were complicit in getting us addicted to it. We had no resistance to it! How many have died as a result? I blame the Indians. Thanks a bunch, Indigenous Peoples!
"They should have let Kavanaugh through and ignored Ford's obvious lies."
You love Schlump's lies.
To be sure, there are all sorts of rumors and crypto-knowledge about people who may have gotten to the New World earlier.
Basque fishermen for instance, who certainly did get there very early, were reported by Cabot off Newfoundland in 1497. It may even be that fishermen from all along the Iberian and southern French coast were frequenting the Grand Banks for fifty years before Columbus.
But Columbus is symbolic as none of these others are. He made the public, official voyage, he got the publicity, he's the fellow who launched a thousand ships.
Robert Cook said...
"I'm not "upset" at Columbus: he's long dead and his actions are history. However, one mustn't valorize those who commit crimes, but must recognize them."
Who can we honor then? Can we respect what Gandhi accomplished, and how, despite his virulent racism and odd choice of sleeping companions? Can we respect what Louis Pasteur accomplished, despite his medical and experimental practices, which violated many modern ethical standards? Can we respect the ideals Thomas Jefferson wrote about, despite his owning slaves?
People are complicated. We shouldn't look at historical heroes as if they were saints, and we shouldn't toss away the good things we can learn from them because they aren't actually saints.
Trump's tweet seems spot on -- he picks out the virtues and accomplishments that inspire us.
Ha, hail Columbus. Good on Trump.
I only look at Trump's twitter feed when following a link like this - why am I not surprised to see the same Angry Studies graduates posting the same predictable inane comments and lame memes every time I do? They must live there.
God bless Trump for giving those lost befuddled souls a sense of purpose.
Anyway, Columbus was a great man.
(Where's Cookie to call me an evil piece of shit for saying that? It just won't feel like a proper Columbus Day if Cookie's not here to call me a Nazi.)
Oh man, he was here! I scrolled too fast. Sorry, Robert.
When Columbus first arrived he was surprised to find the Indians already here. He asked the chief what he was doing here, and the chief replied, "We had reservations."
Can we respect what Gandhi accomplished, and how, despite his virulent racism and odd choice of sleeping companions?
Plus, he convinced his wife not to have surgery and she died of a curable disease.
He, on the other hand, was quick to seek medical help for himself.
@Phil D:
I have long been a Neil Young fan, but these lyrics are pitiful:
And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood
Straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on.
Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones.
And they carried them
To the flatlands
But they died along the way
And they built up
With their bare hands
What we still can't do today.
And I know she's living there
And she loves me to this day
I still can't remember when
Or how I lost my way.
He came dancing across the water
Cortez, Cortez
What a killer.
Don't you ever ask them why.
If they told you, you would die.
So just look at (Crosby) and si-iiiii-iiii-iiiigh...
Robert Cook: However, one mustn't valorize those who commit crimes, but must recognize them. Every understanding of who they were and what happened then and later is thereby later distorted into lies and illusions. As a nation, we have an unhealthy tendency to want to turn others (and ourselves) into heroes and to essentially worship them.
When you bang on like this you're only projecting your own injured naïveté onto others. Intelligent people, once past adolescence and early adulthood, develop some understanding of the complexity of history and human affairs. The people you're accusing of "worshiping" the great figures in their history don't know any less about the facts of history than you, and they are not in any kind of denial about them. Nor are they worse people than you.
Perhaps this is common in all cultures and countries. It's pernicious.
Yes, it is common in all cultures. Like many (if not all) such things, it has its pernicious as well as its necessary aspects. Unlike your childish utopianism, which has invariably pernicious consequences.
Re Gandhi: "While in Bengal to see what comfort he could offer in times of inter-communal violence in the run-up to independence, Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him. "We both may be killed by the Muslims," he told her, "and must put our purity to the ultimate test, so that we know that we are offering the purest of sacrifices, and we should now both start sleeping naked." from The Independent.
I've heard some great lines in my day but that one takes the cake. ;-)
But to answer the salient question: Yes, we can admire people who may have done abhorrent [to us] things. This is especially true when the subject is of another culture or is on the enemy side in war. Who would not objectively admire Erwin Rommel, for instance? Or Mitsuo Fuchida?
Why do they need a special day to tweet about good stuff? Why not do it every day?
correction he was taino, not carib:
www.historyofcuba.com/history/oriente/hatuey.htm
yes we could consider ghandi's advice to the jews, all in all though he was better then subanda ghose, who would have been the Japanese puppet
"Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones."
Obviously from Neil's album Naivete.
Well he is a Canadian, so he would have all the moral authority necessary to yell at the US..
I just finished Bernal Diaz the conquest of New Spain. He was one of the soldiers with Cortes. Most exciting adventure story ever. He talks about the temples where they do human sacrifice and how the floor and walls are black with dried blood but you really don't feel it till he starts talking about the smell being like the worst slaughterhouse ever.
I don't know. I have it on good authority that the indigenous peoples of the Americas all lived in perfect harmony with nature and it was all rainbows and unicorns until Cortez showed up. /sarc
"Well he is a Canadian, so he would have all the moral authority necessary to yell at the US."
No less than we presume to have the moral authority to yell at other nations, right?
What do you mean 'we' Kemosabe?
Cookie, I don't yell at other nations. I prefer to leave them the hell alone and I'd like them to leave us the hell alone. Trade, yes. Joint projects, yes. Travel and tourism? Yes. Moral authority? No.
Arashi said...
"I don't know. I have it on good authority that the indigenous peoples of the Americas all lived in perfect harmony with nature and it was all rainbows and unicorns until Cortez showed up."
I don't know about all that, but I never met a Native who didn't think it was better.
To add, if a Saudi or Iranian woman wants to wrap herself up to her eyebrows in black burlap [or whatever it is], far be it from me to dissuade her. IIRC, Iranian women in the 70's voted overwhelmingly for the Ayatollah Khomenei.
Elections have consequences.
Crack claims: I don't know about all that, but I never met a Native who didn't think it was better.
Interesting that you've met natives who lived before Cortez. You must be older than I thought.
mockturtle said...
"Interesting that you've met natives who lived before Cortez. You must be older than I thought."
Are white people the only ones who have accurate histories and families and shit to pass them down?
Tell me now: I need to report back to headquarters.
I don't buy the Columbus BS anymore, because I can't maintain the fiction that says Natives didn't count, and were "discovered" by someone who did, just because he didn't have a clue they existed.
he thought he had reached the indies hence the name, he was the elon musk of his day, yet not so well capitalized,
mockturtle said... Re Gandhi
I read his autobiography in HS. I was shocked to find out that he regularly "cuffed" his wife, in his own words.
"Are white people the only ones who have accurate histories and families and shit to pass them down? "
The Chinese also do (and boy do they), along with several other peoples in the Chinese cultural sphere (Korea, Japan, Tibet, Mongolia to a degree, etc.), and the Arabs/Persians/Turks have something in that direction also.
They all maintained scholarly castes.
The Indians had scholarly castes but they were not so concerned with events in the current instance of reality. The old joke was that India had no history, and China too much of it.
Other than these, the rest of the world's peoples have little documented history that has survived, or it doesn't go back too far.
Until they read “1491.”
feel Columbus Day should be renamed "Indigenous Peoples Day". What do you think?
Peyote Day.
feel Columbus Day should be renamed "Indigenous Peoples Day". What do you think?
I prefer "Siberian American Day."
The Deep State has now turned on Oleg Deripaska, their favorite Russian just the other day.
Because of the associations with the scheme and coup-plotters, Oleg has buckets of dirt on corrupt U.S. officials who were trying to target Donald Trump. In the wake of a soft-coup failure, Oleg then became a risk. So it comes as no surprise to see today the U.S. DOJ and Treasury turn on him and confiscate his U.S. assets.
It means any American companies engaging in business with him must cease operations by November 12, extended from the original October 23 deadline reports Crime Russia. (read more)
That will each him to play with Democrats and their enablers.
Quaestor said...
"Mission accomplished. How else can I offend you today?"
More grammatically, it should be "Mission accomplished. How else may I offend you today?" After all, you're asking permission to further vex the already sorely vex, not asking someone to specify your ability to offend. I'd assume my ability to offended is off the charts, as it were.
10/8/18, 11:46 AM
Hey asshole, what's jimbino supposed to do if you steal his act? ;)
When the occupants of America in 1492, came over the land bridge in Asia did they "genocide" the original Indians?
Probably.
The Aztecs wiped out the competition, and held the rest of Mexico in de facto slavery. Cortes didn't over throw the Aztecs, he just provided leadership to the other native tribes to do so.
Who did the Inca's wipe out to establish THEIR empire. The jews claim Israel, but didn't the ancient Hebrews destroy the existing occupants? Or did Moses pay them for the land?
I think we can all agree that the Native Americans would've have been better off, if we'd cut off immigration in 1790. And send the Africans back to Africa.
The Bernal Diaz account would make a tremendous frame for a movie, or rather a "Rome" type HBO series.
But more spectacular and much weirder.
The story is made for a "Band of Brothers" treatment also. Those guys, the grunts, were a tight-knit bunch, and there were all sorts of "types".
This is not a man to be honored.
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