Oktubre 26, 2018

"Since my ex-husband had divorced me the previous year, I had been reconsidering what I thought I knew about relationships."

"And my previous belief in a relationship of equals seemed painfully naïve.... After my fantasy of a partnership of equals had failed to materialize, I seemed to want to replace it with a fantasy of paternalistic protection.... I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee. But with my new guy, I found myself quietly acquiescing as he told me his voting history shouldn’t matter.... He paid when we ate out; I never even offered, in part because I knew doing so would displease him, but also because I relished feeling cared for. He was fiscally responsible, generous and trustworthy.... At the same time, I found myself becoming guarded around my new guy, evading his questions and hiding things I thought he wouldn’t like. When he asked if I ever went to church, I said no — but failed to mention I was Jewish. I never lied about my career, though I didn’t tell him the whole truth either. He knew I was an actuary but not that I was a partner at the firm.... He was smart enough, first of all, to see through my deceptions: the restraint during chess and the lack of candor about my career.... When I next saw him, he was sullen and withdrawn. I mentioned my cabinetry problems, as if to say, 'See, I don’t earn more than you. I can’t even afford a normal kitchen.' It was a last-ditch effort to turn myself into the person I thought he wanted and also the person I wanted to be: a woman who needed to be protected."

From "How I Fell for an ‘I’m the Man’ Man/Stung by divorce, a high-earning professional tries to recast herself in the dating world as a woman in need of male protection" a NYT "Modern Love" column by Susan Forray, an actuary who lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. In the end, the man breaks it off with her and she uses her own money to get her cabinets done.

No comments section at the NYT on this one.

92 komento:

Tommy Duncan ayon kay ...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

Not exactly open minded.

Henry ayon kay ...

Bizarre. "Controlling didn't work for me, so I decided to try Dishonest."

Ken B ayon kay ...

I lied to him, he broke it off. Fucking patriarchy.

Charlie ayon kay ...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

She sounds like a barrel of laughs.

PatHMV ayon kay ...

"This experience should have led me to dump any guy who claimed it was a man’s job to manage a couple’s money,"

Perhaps she should try not to stereotype and make broad generalizations about a group of people based on her experience with one particular man.

Dave Begley ayon kay ...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

Nothing like a deposition before that first meeting. Love is in the air! Fun.

Ann Althouse ayon kay ...

I wonder whether if you're an actuary, the person you go out with ever says, "You're such an actuary."

I know how it works with lawyer.

Peachy ayon kay ...

The first date gave that guy all he needed to know.

Krumhorn ayon kay ...

It’s impossible to imagine Freeman Hunt or Mockturtle (or many others here) ever writing self-absorbed drivel like that.

- Krumhorn

Expat(ish) ayon kay ...

Half the women I dated before I met my wife were smarter than me. On average, you'd expect that. (If you could do math.)(Like the partner in an actuarial firm.)

Almost none of the women I ever dated made within 50% of what I made. Also, on average, you'd expect that if you were a software engineer. That was not true when I dated the Lawyer or the Doctor, but I didn't care. I still didn't let them pay for dinner on the average date, but they would often take me out (concert) where they procured the tix and transportation. Preserving my ossified view of a man's responsibility and still making the statement that they were actually in charge of sh*t too.

That's how adults can date.

Is it really that hard?

-XC

Henry ayon kay ...

That article is crazy town.

stlcdr ayon kay ...

So, lawyers tell lawyer jokes? Us non-lawyers need to step up our game!

Fernandinande ayon kay ...

Nothing a good fuck wouldn't cure.

Ann Althouse ayon kay ...

I just noticed the line: "A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband."

That leads up to a discussion that seems to lead to the breakup. He's surprised to hear that she initiated sex with her husband, and I get the impression he realizes how dishonest she's been. I have no idea what that discussion was like, but I wonder what would have happened if she'd just completely come clean and admitted that she was making herself small in some experiment of enjoying his big-strong-manliness but she'd really like to cut it out and get real. Maybe she did say something like that and he withdrew because she'd been too dishonest and she didn't seem like a good risk.

Fernandinande ayon kay ...

I'll hump your leg!

Rick.T. ayon kay ...

As a CPA, I find this old actuary joke funny because it's true:

An actuary is someone who wanted to be an accountant, but didn’t
have the personality for it.

Dust Bunny Queen ayon kay ...

Her article is a lesson on how NOT to have a relationship with anyone, much less a man you might like to eventually be with. Dating is about getting to KNOW the other person. So instead of opening up and finding out if you are compatible or have fundamental issues she proceeds to-------------->

Lie at any chance she gets. Only tell part of the truth. Make up stories about yourself. Hide who you really are. Be deceptive. Duplicitous.

Everyone like that type of person....right?

She is wasting his time and he knows it.

Sebastian ayon kay ...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

Crazy, of course, but also a useful signal: stay away! The new guy probably discovered the prog crazy bit belatedly.

"It was a last-ditch effort to turn myself into the person I thought he wanted and also the person I wanted to be: a woman who needed to be protected."

OK, women, tell us: do you want to be protected, or not? is it OK to treat you as if you want to be protected, or not? Should we treat you as the person you want to be or as the person your prog ideology tells you you ought to want to be?

Rockeye ayon kay ...

Anne - almost everyone knows about lawyers. Almost nobody really knows what the hell actuarys do. Good jokes require universality.

Henry ayon kay ...

This article is not about love, it's about revenge.

Ralph L ayon kay ...

I hope the cabinets were fixed lovingly.

PatHMV ayon kay ...

"A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

“You initiated?” he said, mildly incredulous."

She takes this "You initiated?" question as a suggestion that women shouldn't initiate sex. But it seems more likely to me, given the rest of the article, that she had never initiated sex with this swarthy fellow, and so he was simply expressing surprise that she, not women in general, should have initiated sex.

Eleanor ayon kay ...

On any given day no good relationship is ever equal. Over the decades things usually even out. Good partners bring all they have into the relationship and take from it what they need. As long as both people's needs are sufficiently met, the relationship has a good chance of succeeding. It's communism perfected. It sounds like this woman gets swamped in the details. Like an actuary would.

Bay Area Guy ayon kay ...

New updated title:

"How I fell for a 'Man'-Man, botched it, and became a 'Cat' Woman"

robother ayon kay ...

"Ve haff ways of making you talk" could be an interesting come-on from a woman in certain professions. Actuarial science is not one of those professions.

Wince ayon kay ...

I see an artist at an easel, surrounded by dozens of discarded and torn self portraits surrounding her feet, all very different from one another.

What we used to call a 'bullshit artist'.

Dust Bunny Queen ayon kay ...

"A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband."

WTF!!! Who the Hell does this? Have sex with someone, possibly for the first time, and then goes off about previous sexual experiences. Besides being rude, it is incredibly insensitive.

My husband and I were both married previously. Neither of us were under the illusion that we were virgins. We didn't pretend to not have had relationships in the past, previous marriage, dating histories. That would be beyond stupid.

However, what is really stupid is to share intimate details about those past relationships. I don't want to know his....and mine are none of his business.

This woman is a hot mess. Run away!!!

tcrosse ayon kay ...

I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

"Roll over and I'll show you what my ex used to do."

chuck ayon kay ...

Guys, avoid the crazee.

Ken B ayon kay ...

Actuary/lawyer
An actuary's job is to tell the truth.

Ignorance is Bliss ayon kay ...

Fernandistein said...

Nothing a good fuck wouldn't cure.

And all it took was one good fuck to cure her crazy...

...said no man, ever.

virgil xenophon ayon kay ...

@robother/

"Ve haff veys..."

FIFY :)

James K ayon kay ...

"the restraint during chess"

Chess restraint is a well-known relationship-killer.

Kalli Davis ayon kay ...

The key issue here is that deception never works. You cannot hide who your are. Eventually your love will see you. Now, if your ways aren't working then change your ways; or ask Gd to change you.

Dust Bunny Queen ayon kay ...

Re sharing sexual information: However, what is really stupid is to share intimate details about those past relationships. I don't want to know his....and mine are none of his business

Disclaimer....unless there is information about potential health/STD issue type of things. Then, please share.

;-D

stlcdr ayon kay ...

"...What was the point of this article?It sounds like this woman gets swamped in the details..."

aka. 'keeping score'.

Darrell ayon kay ...

I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

Before she spoke he said "Let me guess. . .two in the pink and one in the stink, right?"

MikeR ayon kay ...

Sad story. Progressive woman, mugged by reality... Hiding from herself in so many ways.

HoodlumDoodlum ayon kay ...

Trump's America, am I right??

Ken B ayon kay ...
Naalis ng may-ari ang komentong ito.
John henry ayon kay ...

I'm not clear on the concept of how her ex-husband divorced her. Was she such a horrible person that after divorcing her, and becoming her ex-husband, he divorced het again?

Could one of our resident attorneys explain how this works?

John Henry

Ken B ayon kay ...


I turned to him.
"My ex" I said, "Geeze what a cock on him! I couldn't keep my hands off! I was after him nearly every night. I had an anal bleaching to entice him. My God".
He seemed offended by my strong female sexuality. "You initiated?" he asked in surprise.

President-Mom-Jeans ayon kay ...

Stupid feminist who will die and be consumed by her many cats.

These people are worthless.

Pookie Number 2 ayon kay ...

I wonder whether if you're an actuary, the person you go out with ever says, "You're such an actuary."

Yes. Of course, it’s my wife, so she knows more about actuaries than a normal person should.

PatHMV ayon kay ...

It is very difficult to figure out who you really are, and to be true to yourself. Unfortunately, some people never get past the high school phase of life, where you desperately try to fit in and conform to what you think others expect of you.

mtrobertslaw ayon kay ...

It would be interesting to see a sociological study that compares the percentage of dysfunctional M/F relationships between progressives with the percentage of dysfunctional M/F relationships between conservatives. But I don't think there will ever be one.

Rory ayon kay ...

stlcdr said: "So, lawyers tell lawyer jokes?"

Lawyers tell client jokes.

Michael K ayon kay ...

At least Democrats are not reproducing.

That may be why they want those immigrants.

gilbar ayon kay ...

"in part because I knew doing so would displease him"
SHE KNEW! She KNEW it would displease him; 'cause she could Read His Mind.
{She also KNEW that he could 'see through' her deceptions }

Was there a guy on earth that would be displeased by An OFFER to pay (not an insistence) ?
She was SO SMART, but she Couldn't see that he didn't really care for being lied to ?

So, liberal white girl gets tired of beta white guys, and goes black (oh, sorry; 'swarthy'); then dumps him after she gets her rocks off. Am i reading this right, or what?

Martha ayon kay ...

Susan Forray does get some insight at the end of her sad tale of woe:

“That’s the thing about gender roles. They can meet a need you were afraid to acknowledge, and they can take it all away when you don’t conform.”


Seeing Red ayon kay ...

The female sex shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

Amadeus 48 ayon kay ...

This is way too much information about this person.

robother ayon kay ...

Instead of an oral interrogation administered by an actuary, a lawyer would serve the potential boyfriend with a set of written interrogatories.

MadisonMan ayon kay ...

I won't read the article.

But the comments here are hilarious. Thank you.

curt ayon kay ...

As a young lawyer, one of the best tips I ever received from a senior lawyer was to tell those folks on an airplane who ask you what you do for a living that you were an actuary.

Owen ayon kay ...

We should be grateful to her, and all the others like her, whose pathology is not complete unles they SHARE.

Consider how many trillions of dollars it would take in payments to shrinks, over many years, to extract a very shaky and uncertain approximation of the account she has freely offered up.

Read it and weep (for her). Read it and rejoice (for the rest of us).

Bushman of the Kohlrabi ayon kay ...

Lucky guy. It's best when the crazy is obvious early on in the relationship.

Leslie Graves ayon kay ...

On the spectrum is the phrase they use for hot messes like this.

gilbar ayon kay ...

ok, i went and read the article; and...

she did NOT dump him, he dumped her. For being a lying cold fish, that spent all her time in bed talking about sex with her ex; after mooching free dinners off of the new guy.

rhhardin ayon kay ...

Thurber's "The War between Men and Women" for some reason isn't online that I can find.

It starts with a thrown drink
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rhhardin/30623642667

and goes on for 17 frames.

James K ayon kay ...

The problem is that actuaries are good at math. That blew her cover at playing the helpless ditz.

AlbertAnonymous ayon kay ...

Absolute F’ing garbage.

I want to call her a batshit crazy feminist, but that would be redundant.

Bay Area Guy ayon kay ...

Memo to men: Don't sleep with crazy Leftwing women. Even the good looking ones, even the actuaries!

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM ayon kay ...

IIRC, Gloria Steinem recounts a time, on a dark and stormy nite, appreciating being picked up in a limo by Morton Zuckerman, a warm and secure cocoon provided by a man.

Fish want bicycles!

rcocean ayon kay ...

I vaguely remember seeing an IQ chart by occupation and Actuaries were almost at the very top.

What a dishonest woman! When was she going to disclose the fact of being Jewish? Or that her behavior was all an act?

Not only dishonest but dumb. You can only pretend for so long and then the real you comes out. And usually the other person has to deal with "the real you" and the fact you deceived them.

rhhardin ayon kay ...

The Accountant (2016) with Anna Kendrick was good. Mr. Right (2015) good too, two Kendrick winners in a row.

rcocean ayon kay ...

If you want another "crazy bitch" look up the letter that Grassley wrote about Sweatnick - there's a whole life of crazy.

tim maguire ayon kay ...

Henry said...Bizarre. "Controlling didn't work for me, so I decided to try Dishonest."

You sum it up nicely.

"Since my ex-husband had divorced me the previous year"

"My husband divorced me and found it so rewarding that he went and divorced me again."

rhhardin ayon kay ...

Anna Kendrick is good as a fun but unappreciated character.

rcocean ayon kay ...

BTW, if you're looking for good looking babes, skip the actuary department.

Jersey Fled ayon kay ...

Humble bragging about how superior she is to men.

And why is it that the NYT wants to present these disfunction women as ideals for liberal women lately.

Annie ayon kay ...

So the NYT has turned into a Cosmo-type rag.

Sebastian ayon kay ...

"present these disfunction women as ideals for liberal women lately."

While presenting humble-braggy philosophy profs apologizing for exercising male privilege as ideals for men.

It's all part of the SarahJeongification of the NYT.

LA_Bob ayon kay ...

I guess the feminist meme in this story is that men won't accept a woman as an equal and they won't accept a woman who dishonestly makes herself weaker for him. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. So, the (unwritten conclusion might be that the) road to happiness for women is to give up men, at least as "partners".

Oh, but she clearly wants a man. Quite badly. What to do...what to do...

The Crack Emcee ayon kay ...

"When he asked if I ever went to church, I said no — but failed to mention I was Jewish."

{Shaking head]

Yancey Ward ayon kay ...

Exactly the kind of woman any man should run from on first sight.

Big Mike ayon kay ...

This woman is a hot mess. Run away!!!

Yup.

Big Mike ayon kay ...

A marriage of equals can work very well, but it starts with respecting yourself, and being honest with yourself, then continues with respecting your partner and being honest with your partners, as much as you respect yourself and are honest with yourself.

And that’s just for starters. Partnerships take work.

elkh1 ayon kay ...

Guess the responsible, generous, trustworthy man doesn't trust phonies.

n.n ayon kay ...

She can't know what she never understood.

FIDO ayon kay ...
Naalis ng may-ari ang komentong ito.
FIDO ayon kay ...

We just had an article about this: Woke Women Waking without those they Wed.

This isn't just about lying to a potential partner.

It is about recognition of brand; ruination. The Hip Urban Intelligent Career Woman ™ Brand has been Feminized and Forded. Men don't see much long term prospects in that anymore. Not any man who can read divorce statistics.


This woman, in the pit of her black heart, realizes this...and tries to masquerade as a Conservative woman. Because she is lonely. Because she is missing something in her life and she lives in a Dating Desert.


Now, this is a sad story about HER life, but the newspaper is sending quite the different message, I think. It is a cautionary tale: don't cave! They won't accept you anyway! Stay strong, unmarried and voting Democrat!


I am not sure that the newspaper is wrong. I certainly would have trust issues with a lifelong Democrat woman. Just not worth the downside that they might be Ball Busters like Mika Brzeznski or Michelle Goldberg without the spectacular racks.
Not to mention the political arguments.

FIDO ayon kay ...

That being said, I am not getting the 'money' issue as much as I used to.

Just don't combine your incomes. She wants fancy things. She buys fancy things. Don't let her touch YOUR money.

But her career meant more than her prospects and she got what was important to her. Men have to face the prospect of not getting what they want all the time too.

Larvell ayon kay ...

It goes without saying that these things are fiction, right?

Rabel ayon kay ...

"When I made the mistake of mentioning work, he finally asked enough questions to find my career history online."

All that he needed was her name. So she's lying about that too.

A Jewish redhead. Is that common?

Char Char Binks, Esq. ayon kay ...

"...claimed it was a man’s job to manage a couple’s money,"

I thought it was a Jew's job.

Van Wallach ayon kay ...

Her JDate profile practically writes itself: "I hate conservatives, but I love to talk about sex with my ex."

Bob Loblaw ayon kay ...

A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

PSA: Nobody wants to hear about sex with your last partner.

Bob Loblaw ayon kay ...

Just don't combine your incomes. She wants fancy things. She buys fancy things. Don't let her touch YOUR money.

That doesn't really work, though. If she makes a lot of money, she's going to expect vacations on faraway beaches and not camping at the local national park, dinner at expensive restaurants. You'd be under continual pressure to live within her means but beyond yours.

Rosalyn C. ayon kay ...

"Heaven forbid" she would consider dating a conservative and observant Jewish man who has traditional family and gender values and appreciates her financial acumen. It's funny/strange/sad that she would more readily date a conservative Christian and lie about herself.

Zach ayon kay ...

I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee.

Don't do this.

I mentioned my cabinetry problems, as if to say, 'See, I don’t earn more than you. I can’t even afford a normal kitchen.' It was a last-ditch effort to turn myself into the person I thought he wanted and also the person I wanted to be: a woman who needed to be protected."

Don't do this.

In the end, the man breaks it off with her and she uses her own money to get her cabinets done.

She asked him to pay for her cabinets? (From the article, it's ambiguous whether she was asking outright. But she does use paying for her own cabinets as the stinger at the end, so ...)

Don't do that. Don't do any of that.

This is someone who is pathologically self centered. She uses a zero commitment coffee date as an opportunity to badger some guy about his voting history. The next guy thinks that going to church is important, so she conceals that she's Jewish. He's careful about money, so she conceals that she makes more than him, and angles for him to replace her cabinets.

What's missing here is the idea that the guy might have some preferences, or be entitled to polite behavior.

A coffee date isn't really a fun date. It's a better way to get to know somebody than reading a profile. It should be accepted unconditionally if you're interested, or politely rejected if you're not. The idea that the guy has to earn an hour of chitchat by voting correctly is absurd. Just politely decline and move on.

If someone is looking for a religious partner, then not letting them know you're not religious (or don't even share the religion!) is disrespectful. You're saying that what you're looking for is more important than what they're looking for.

Being vague about how much money you make is fine. There are a lot of hustlers out there.

You should never, ever, ever ask a date for money, or sound like you are. I'd say especially if you make more money than the other person, but that sounds like there's an exception if you're poor. No exceptions.

When I next saw him, he was sullen and withdrawn.

Well, sure. She was manipulating him at every opportunity. Sooner or later, feelings are gonna get hurt.

Zach ayon kay ...

I missed the part about throwing chess games when she had chess books on the shelves.

I'll guess that the origin of the problem is that she used to be married to a man she didn't respect. So she either lost the habit of treating her partner as an equal, or never developed it in the first place.

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