I'm trying to read the new Andrew Sullivan column in New York Magazine and I'm stuck less than half way through the first sentence.
First, a sort of weird admiration... Oh, yeah, KKK. I hadn't noticed. All those Ks. Is there something about K that gets attention?
But... the Ks go together, and yet Khashoggi was — wasn't he'd? — tortured and murdered, so he's not a proper subject for tossing in with a superficial amusement about letters.
And... come to think of it, Kavanaugh wasn't a subject for amusement.
And... if the only one we're laughing at is Kanye, that's trite. Laughing at Kanye. And why are we laughing at him? It better not be a special way to laugh at black people. No, no, no... who would that even be — a white Kanye? According to SNL, the white Kanye is Donald Trump (in the deranged mind of Donald Trump).
There's much more to the Andrew Sullivan column. I think he begins with that "If you can think back through the mists of Trump time" because he's aware that, writing only once a week, he's presenting items that readers, used to following the news on a daily basis, might find stale, and he's encouraging us to feel that he will make it worth it to look back into the bygone days of last week.
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১৮৩টি মন্তব্য:
Trump time moves a lot faster than, say, Obama time.
No he wasnt:
https://m.theepochtimes.com/journalists-hid-identity-of-key-source-as-they-spread-their-khashoggi-disappearance-narrative_2688563.html
Here's my summary of the Andrew Sullivan article:
[Trump] has also shifted the entire polity more decisively toward the authoritarian style of government....[the Tax Cut is] a further justification for the GOP’s going along with populist authoritarianism....Hitler!!!!!
What is missing in those ellipses? Actual evidence of authoritarianism.
Oh sure, Sullivan references that New York Review of Books article on Weimer, in which Mitch McConnel plays Paul von Hindenberg. How does Sullivan condense this cloud of nightmares?
[Republicans] have hitched their wagon to someone who commands the masses through rank populism.
Stupid masses. They thought they had a vote.
And who plays Anita Berber? Taylor Swift?
That's a joke.
“Kavanaugh wasn't a subject for amusement”. Just his daughter.
Sullivan quotes Agent Mulder:
[McConnell] stoked the hyperpolarization of American politics to make the Obama presidency as dysfunctional and paralyzed as he possibly could. As with parliamentary gridlock in Weimar, congressional gridlock in the US has diminished respect for democratic norms, allowing McConnell to trample them even more.
That's a farcical statement on its face. The way to increase respect for democratic norms is ... to give the president what he wants. If he's Obama. Who are the people pining for authoritarianism again?
more strikes against a biased press
I haven't read Andrew Sullivan since that time, long ago, when he marveled that Obama was a Leo. I saw him on Bill Maher's show recently, and cringed for him, as he let Maher (and his guests) aggressively interrupt and shush him as he tried to explain Trump's appeal during #MeToo. I was embarrassed for him as a man.
Andrew's got problems.
Can we just say that Sullivan shot his wad over Palin’s uterus? He missed and nothing came out of it. He been stuck in refractory ever since.
Well he's back to category error:
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/10/turkish_taffy.html
A fever has broken. For most of us anyway. That's how I feel.
stoked the hyperpolarization of American politics to make the Obama presidency as dysfunctional and paralyzed as he possibly could.
Or.... the voters put a check on him. The problem with putting a "check" on Trump this time is that the Democrats are batshit crazy and instead of creating the widely desired gridlock, they are planning to put the country through the hell of the Kavanaugh show trial of Kavanaugh show trials, because Hillary lost.
@narciso:
No he wasnt:
https://m.theepochtimes.com/journalists-hid-identity-of-key-source-as-they-spread-their-khashoggi-disappearance-narrative_2688563.html
Now you know that link does not establish "no he hasn't," only that an issue of possible bias has been raised with a source. And even then, anything that is reported is going to be mere speculation at best.
Turkish authorities claim to have evidence to support their claims. That evidence will need to be evaluated and judgments made. What is agreed upon by both sides is that Khashoggi entered the consulate and has not been heard from since. Originally it was claimed that he had been detained inside the consulate and then later changed to claims he was murdered. The Saudi side claims he left the consulate and disappeared while in Turkey. They have been asked to show proof that he left (e.g. via CCV footage).
The same people who caution against a rush to judgment to blame Saudi Arabia are similarly rushing to judgment that this is all fake in an effort to discredit the regime. The truth is, we don't know what happened.
But it's worth pointing out that calls for reining in the Saudis were correct and legitimate long before Khashoggi's disappearance.
Henry said..
What is missing in those ellipses? Actual evidence of authoritarianism.
Oh sure, Sullivan references that New York Review of Books article on Weimer, in which Mitch McConnel plays Paul von Hindenberg. How does Sullivan condense this cloud of nightmares?
I've viewed these recurring gaps in rationality and argument -- usually about individual political personalities he brands as toxic -- all presented in the guise of heterodoxy as the tribute Sullivan pays to his husband and the Provincetown crowd so they don't ostracize and kick him to the curb.
narciso, that is an interesting story with some meat in it. I wonder if Farmer has seen it?
K's are funny, according to Neil Simon.
https://vimeo.com/28688111
" But I’m not talking merely about policy — he has also shifted the entire polity more decisively toward the authoritarian style of government. "
Says the same guy who acknowledged Trump was working towards deregulation and weakening Obamacare, which the government can use to actually force you to buy things you don't want.
I get the strong feeling Sullivan doesn't actually know what some words mean.
I guess the meme of Trump as the incompetent boob is over. Now he is competently and effectively moving us towards authoritarianism. Which is defined as doing exactly what the people elected him to do.
"If you’d predicted that the Kavanaugh hearings would have been a net-plus for the GOP a couple of weeks ago, people would have deemed you crazy. "
-- Actually, a lot of people DID predict that, and they WERE called crazy. But, like the people who predicted Trump winning (of which I was not one), they were right. Maybe we should start listening to the crazy people. Mick around for midterm predictions?
So, here's my problem with "Trump is an authoritarian Nazi!"
Where were these people under Obama? Trump mean tweeting journalists is not an authoritarian assault on the First Amendment. Obama jailing journalists, vidographers (Even bad ones) and charging journalists with terrorism for not revealing whistleblowers was practically the definition of an authoritarian assault on the First Amendment. But the media liked him!
"Now put this in the broader context of Trump’s sole legislative achievement: his massive, budget-busting tax cut."
-- And you know, getting a couple of budgets passed, including the first on-time defense budget since 2008. In Trump's first year, he passed, according to CNN, something like 100 pieces of legislation. Maybe he meant Trump's largest legislative achievement, but Sullivan is kind of careless with his words here.
Just as the left's derisive approach to complaints about Clinton's sexual harassment taught us never to take them seriously again on issues pertaining to mistreatment of women, so their approach to BushHitler's fascism taught us never to take them seriously again on anything having to do with supposedly authoritarian right-wingerism.
Post-Palin Sullivan at least tries to pay attention to the other side, and even he misfires absurdly, whether by sheer obtuseness or desire to cater to prog prejudice. Their incomprehension is our great strength.
I also don't see why Sullivan thinks another "Trump's businesses were evil!" story from anywhere would have moved the needle on Trump. They haven't for years because too much of the early reporting on those things turned out wrong or overblown. CNN/NYT/whoever called wolf too many times about Trump's businesses that now it is just background noise. Should it be? Probably not, but it is people like Sullivan's fault.
In the Mueller probe piece, Sullivan says: "Missteps by McCabe and Strzok and now Rosenstein have been exploited mercilessly." Mind you, these are missteps like lying to the FBI, Strzork actively undermining the investigation and the like. Again: It is willfully ignoring reality due to hating Trump.
As to Sullivan complaining that Senators who don't like Trump may be replaced with ones who do: Where were the tears for the Blue Dogs when Obama saw the moderate Democrats of Congress stomped out?
Henry pretty much nails it. IN Sullivan's telling, everything Trump does (nominating judges with the consent of the Senate, passing a tax bills with majorities in both houses of Congress) is somehow evidence of "authoritarianism."
Sullivan's slimiest critique, however is his suggestion that Trump is "acquiescing to the likely torture and murder of a journalist." I guess in the same sense that FDR and Ike acquiesced in the rape of thousands of German women by Soviet troops. Or Jefferson acquiesced in the brutalities of Napoleon's Peninsular campaign.
Anytime a pundit starts blathering about "authoritarianism" - I tag them as worthless.
What does it mean *exactly* ? Why is Trump "authoritarian" and Obama was not?
Has the congress gone out of business? Has the Constitution been replaced with something else? Trump has the same Presidential Powers -and no more - than Obama did.
Buzz Words: like "Authoritarian" "Demagogue" "Populist" "Nativist" = meaningless bullshit.
"Because the old-school GOP agenda — massive tax cuts for the wealthy and ending affordable health insurance for millions"
-- Isn't the GOP agenda tax cuts for everyone and restructuring and simplification of the tax code? Doesn't the GOP seek to drive down costs on health care and to increase the number of providers of health insurance by opening markets across states? Like, again. At least know what you're talking about instead of repeating hackneyed talking points.
Why is Mitch McConnell used as an example of authoritarianism -- and not Reid who blew up the filibuster to remove power from minority political parties?
Sullivan is an entertaining read but he can't think his way out of a paper bag.
After all, he smokes Dope and goes "bare back" riding.
His only consistent belief is that anyone who disagrees with him is stupid or evil. Otherwise, he's flipped and flopped on almost every issue.
Like, what has McConnell done to move America more towards authoritarian, majority rule than Reid?
The Never Trumpers like Goldberg, Erickson, Kristol, etc. - all blather about Trump's "authoritarianism" and "Lack of character" and "Demagoguery" because they can't attack Trump on their real issues.
Namely, Trump's desire to enforce the immigration laws, renegotiate bad trade deals, and adopt a realistic foreign policy.
The "Never Trumpers" are against all those things. In fact, that's what they care about most. But attacking Trump on those issues wouldn't fly with Conservatives. So, they use bogus, vaporous rhetoric.
"But it's worth pointing out that calls for reining in the Saudis were correct and legitimate long before Khashoggi's disappearance"
Khashoggi apparently isn't the saint that he is being portrayed to be. He apparently was very close to OBL, to the founders of al Quaeda, and continued, up to his disappearance, to be close to the Muslim Brotherhood. Maybe the highest profile remaining Saudi friend of the MB, and former close friend of OBL. At a time when that Kingdom needs US support against the Iranians much more than we need their support, thanks to our recent ascendancy in the production of oil. Making things even hinkier, the Turks are now trying to recapture their position as spiritual leaders of Sunni Islam, from the Saudis, that they lost, a century ago, as a result of having picked the wrong side in WW I. There are, also, apparently, questions about his "fiancé", who suddenly appeared in his life, and was apparently unknown to much of his family and close friends. My guess is that the level of outrage, in this country, will roughly correlate with people's support of Trump, and negatively correlate with their opposition to al Quaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Indeed, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Khashoggi really was whacked, that his termination had been run, at least tacitly, by the Trump Administration at some level. Keep that in mind - that even if he never pulled the trigger of a gun against the US, he worked closely, for decades, with those who did, who tried to blow up the WTC, and then took them down on 9/11/01.
Mike K gets fed pablum thinking it steak. Why do you repeatedly and openly give aid and comfort to the perpetrators of 911?
@rcocean:
Namely, Trump's desire to enforce the immigration laws, renegotiate bad trade deals, and adopt a realistic foreign policy.
Precisely, though I would quibble with how "realistic" his foreign policy is, but in today's newspeak "authoritarianism" just means doing what voters want. Ignoring voters for being too stupid to know what's good for them is part and parcel of the entire elite establishment. If you recall during the Obama administration, the biggest criticism of the Congress was that it was being "obstructionist," as if the role of Congress were to simply rubber stamp anything the president wants. There were also commenters who just wished Obama could do what he wanted without all the obstruction.
"I am pleased with Obama. I think he’s brilliant. The Republican Party should get out of his way and stop trying to hurt him. "It would be good if he could be a dictator for a few years because he could do a lot of good things quickly.”
-Woody Allen
"You know, that's really what, what it's come down to. So I don't—I, I—I'm worried about this, it's why I have fantasized—don't get me wrong—but that what if we could just be China for a day? I mean, just, just, just one day. You know, I mean, where we could actually, you know, authorize the right solutions, and I do think there is a sense of that, on, on everything from the economy to environment. I don't want to be China for a second, OK, I want my democracy to work with the same authority, focus and stick-to-itiveness. But right now we have a system that can only produce suboptimal solutions."
-Tom Friedman
We're Fed incomplete video from dubious sources, pushing an agenda that is unquestionably salafi I've stated my reservations about father Salman the golden chain, his role in the saudi commission on the Balkans, the International Islamic relief organization, but the son as much as is feasible seems to be moving away from that.
So I'm looking at things at a granular level,he's we've read the 28 pages and we know what the regime was like then the late Prince nayef was a nasty piece of work his brother Ahmed would be no improvement
I remember when Sullivan in a morally panicked way went to great lengths obsessively to slag Sarah Palin for any manner of thing that occurred to him. This was after she was the cause of a frenzy when McCain picked her and she did a charismatic job of introducing herself. I’ve always scratched my head at what made him—a smart guy, and one of the template bloggers—stoop to such lows of partisan outrage at the drop of a hat when he wasn’t even a Democrat. Too much of an Obama fan boy in combination with some personal wierdnesses, I guess.
"The mists of time."
I would think more than two years would have to pass before it gets that misty looking back. If a mere two years adds mist to time, to look back fifty must require looking through the 'sludge' of time
@narciso:
but the son as much as is feasible seems to be moving away from that.
What is the evidence for this, beyond the PR-orchestrated dog and pony shows the regime points on for credulous western audiences? While there have been very mild openings in Saudi Arabian society, in many ways they have regressed in terms of authoritarianism and a heavy handed approach to dissidents and critics. Loujain al-Hathloul was seized by Saudi security services while studying in the UAE, and her husband, Fahad Albutairi, was seized while in Jordan. Less than two months ago, Saudi Arabia announced it would seek the death penalty against human rights activists, including Israa al-Ghomgham.
"But it's worth pointing out that calls for reining in the Saudis were correct and legitimate long before Khashoggi's disappearance."
I think that really depends on who you think are our friends and enemies in the Middle East. Crooked Hillary appears to have strongly backed the Muslim Brotherhood, pushing them into power in Egypt, very likely at least partially a result of advice from her closest aide, Huma Abedelin, whose family continues to be close se to the MB. With Clinton leaving no Foggy Bottom, Obama and Valerie Jarrett seem to have taken over foreign policy, pivoting to supporting Iran, where she was born, from Clinton's support of the MB. Trump has swung back to the normal GOP preference of supporting Saudi Arabia. I think that we can see Jared Kushner's influence here. He apparently is on close personal terms with the young Saudi crown prince, and is strongly pro-Israel. The result appears to be the Saudis now working closely with the Israelis, esp to counter Iran. So, yes, while the Obama Administration tried to rein in the Saudis, and subsidized Iranian terrorism, the Trump Administration has reversed this, allying with The Saudis, and opposing the Iranians. Elections have consequences.
When I survey the Khashoggi stories, I find no facts from either side. These claims about video and audio of his murder are likely fabrications at this point. Unless he was simply abducted by someone and released in the future, I think it very likely that we never find out what happened to him.
In any case, what happened to him will not and should not affect US policy towards Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Those advocating for such changes based on whatever they believe about the Khashoggi story are fucking fools who really don't understand the world.
I have concluded that Howard is a troll and don't respond.
the PR-orchestrated dog and pony shows the regime points on for credulous western audiences?
As opposed to the Iranian dog and pony show for credulous Obamaites.
@Bruce Hayden:
I think that really depends on who you think are our friends and enemies in the Middle East.
We do not have "friends" in the Middle East. We have interests.
Crooked Hillary appears to have strongly backed the Muslim Brotherhood, pushing them into power in Egypt, very likely at least partially a result of advice from her closest aide, Huma Abedelin, whose family continues to be close se to the MB.
The Muslim Brotherhood was not pushed to power. The fact of the matter is that if Arabs have self-determination, they will choose Islamic governments. Consider, for example, the case of democratic Iraq. From Section 2 of the Iraqi Constitution:
"First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:
A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established."
With Clinton leaving no Foggy Bottom, Obama and Valerie Jarrett seem to have taken over foreign policy, pivoting to supporting Iran, where she was born, from Clinton's support of the MB.
There has never been any indication that Hillary Clinton was implementing a foreign policy at odds with her boss' agenda, so the notion that Obama took over foreign policy after Clinton left the State department is fatuous. Also, there was never any "pivoting to supporting Iran." The Obama administration maintained sanctions on Iran, and the JCPOA was a reasonable compromise that included withdraw of some international sanctions in exchange for limits on Iran's nuclear capacity.
So, yes, while the Obama Administration tried to rein in the Saudis, and subsidized Iranian terrorism, the Trump Administration has reversed this, allying with The Saudis, and opposing the Iranians. Elections have consequences.
The Obama administration did not attempt "to rein in the Saudis." The Obama administration provided intelligence, arms, and aerial refueling to support the Saudi war on Yemen. The administration was also on board with the idiotic Saudi policy of trying to apple Assad in Syria. Obama also vetoed a law in Congress (which was ultimately passed) that would permit families of 9/11 victims to sue the Saudi kingdom.
@Michael K:
As opposed to the Iranian dog and pony show for credulous Obamaites.
For example...
We do not have "friends" in the Middle East. We have interests.
I agree with you, but with one exception: Israel is our friend.
It has been inconvenient to have them as friends, but we have been loyal. They have reciprocated except when they perceive that their existence is threatened.
AA, I marvel at your constant quoting of 'hyper liberal' news sources even in the entertainment realm. You should watch it! Propaganda may be self absorbed, if that is the only thing you read. Based on my reading of this blog you're in what the Kenny Loggins song sang, 'Highway to the danger zone'. Try to get your information from other than Liberal Sources, I know it's a lot of work, since there are so few, but in the end it will reward your by giving back your sanity.
@Francisco:
I agree with you, but with one exception: Israel is our friend.
It has been inconvenient to have them as friends, but we have been loyal. They have reciprocated except when they perceive that their existence is threatened.
I do not see any usefulness in using the terminology of friendship to describe our relations with any country, including the UK, with whom we share a huge linguistic and cultural heritage. Ironically, even referring to Israel as a "friend" underestimates the amount of entanglement in the relationships. Friends do not often declare, for example, that there should be "no daylight" between their respective positions.
Except when their states operatives blow up a n embassy to take out a community center in Buenos Aires, that's hospitality.
@narciso:
Except when their states operatives blow up a n embassy to take out a community center in Buenos Aires, that's hospitality.
To what statement on this thread was that a reply? Does it contradict anything anyone here has said about Iran?
To draw a parallel example, Trump is pursuing dialogue with the North Koreans, having met with the Kim Jung-un once and planning to host a second meeting. Is this wrong because the North Koreans blew up KA 858 and got more than a hundred innocent civilians killed?
Blogger hstad said...
AA, I marvel at your constant quoting of 'hyper liberal' news sources even in the entertainment realm. You should watch it! Propaganda may be self absorbed, if that is the only thing you read. Based on my reading of this blog you're in what the Kenny Loggins song sang, 'Highway to the danger zone'. Try to get your information from other than Liberal Sources, I know it's a lot of work, since there are so few, but in the end it will reward your by giving back your sanity.
Cliff Notes Version: AA drinks grape Kool-Aid and would be enlightened if she drank cherry once in a while.
Spengler weighs in on Khashoggi
Among other things, we know that Khashoggi was bitterly opposed to the new Saudi government's rapprochement with the state of Israel. As a Muslim Brotherhood member, he backed Palestinian intransigence.
Die Welt interviewed the German-Egyptian political scientist Asiem El Difraoui, co-founder of the Berlin think tank Candid Foundation, who met Kashoggi for the first time in the time of the American occupation of Iraq. Here is a translation of the nub of the interview
Die Welt: Mr El Difraoui, you have met Jamal Khashoggi several times. What kind of person was he?
Asiem El Difraoui: I met him in about 2003 or 2004, in the circle of former Saudi Arabia intelligence chief Turki Bin Faisal Al Saud. He and Prince Turki were already considering how the kingdom could be modernized. And Jamal had met Osama bin Laden several times.
Interesting, as opposed to ignorant speculation.
I don't trust any information provided by Erdogan that isn't fully and verifiably corroborated. I don't know what happened with Khashoggi, not a clue. But, I didn't believe any of what is out there from the Turks.
Good work, all. An interesting post on Andrew Sullivan suggesting that he is disoriented wobbling now toward Trump, then, remembering that Trump is wrongthink, wobbling away. Now that the GOP has rebonded into a party, perhaps some on the left will begin to move toward us - in this way, wobbling now toward Trump, then, remembering that Trump is wrongthink, wobbling away. Also a very interesting debate on a puzzling news story about the journalist. Probably he is in a Saudi jail and the Turks thought "sawed up with a bone saw and put in luggage" made a better story.
@Michael K:
Interesting, as opoosed to ignorant speculation.
The first sentence at your link uses the word "reveals," which is completely inaccurate since none of what is contained there is new information. For example, there is this story from 2012:
"Khashoggi was previously fired from his post as an editor of AlWatan, one month after he took the position in 2003. The firs firing came after the paper published an article criticizing Ibn Taymiyya, a medieval Sunni cleric who inspired the Wahhabi movement. Ibn Taymiyya is seen as a major figure in Salafi/Wahhabi Islam, is widely quoted by Saudi government clerics, and his work is printed by leading members of the Saudi ruling family.
Khashoggi worked previously as a Saudi diplomat and media advisor to his long-time friend Turki Faisal Al-Saud, former Saudi Ambassador to Washington and head of intelligence for 24 years. He also served with the Saudi Intelligence in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion, and possibly the United States, buying off US-based Arab reporters and TV stations."
Also, from your own link, immediately after the part you quoted:
"He had tried during the 1990s to move him [Osama in Laden] away from militancy. That was obviously important why he visited bin Laden in Sudan and Afghanistan. He told bin Laden that he should mitigate his criticism of the royal family and return home. Of course, within the elite everyone knows each other. Both came from the same generation and from two of the richest families in the kingdom - bin Laden's father was the country's largest contractor, Khashoggi's uncle Adnan was an influential arms dealer. In addition, Khashoggi's grandfather was personal physician to the Saudi King Abd al-Aziz. But Khashoggi himself also had sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood, in which he saw a more modern, more democratic form of Islamism. For today's Saudi leadership, however, the Muslim Brothers are their principal enemy in the world."
Andrew Sullivan
On the foreign front, the key issue motivating the evangelical and activist right is Israel.
Simplistic tired trite nonsense .
The balance of anti-Israel forces is far greater than pro-Israel. Do something positive for our ally and the left go ape shit.
Iran can afford to help the poor Palestinians. American tax payers should not.
The idea that American must continue to lavish money into BS projects like the Palestinian hate project? (Palestinian schools and hospitals") give me a break. What a pantload.
The idea that Palestinians cannot function without fleecing the American Tax payer is tired trite nonsense.
Let Europe fix Palestine. Or Iran. Or any neighboring nation. Why do Americans need to fix Palestine? What do we get? We get hosed.
I'm back to thinking Andrew is a Palin womb obsessed Hillary Clinton corruption excusing douche bag.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Simplistic tired trite nonsense.
Calling it the "key issue" may be somewhat simplistic but not by much. The evangelical/activist right was ecstatic, for example, by the move of the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. What American national interests were served by moving an embassy in a country on the eastern fringe of the Mediterranean 30 miles to the southeast?
The balance of anti-Israel forces is far greater than pro-Israel. Do something positive for our ally and the left go ape shit.
The Obama administration, much derided for being insufficiently pro-Israel, approved the largest US military aid package in history to Israel, $38 billion over 10 years, an increase of more than $700 million per year.
And as that much derided leftist Ann Coulter remarked on Twitter yesterday, "I wish we had a wall. (But at least we moved the embassy!)"
Trump made 200,000 as a 3 year old. that bastard - he had rich parents!
Hillary sets up a Private Server while head of the State Dept and uses it to funnel international cash into her family foundation without any over-sight. ooo never mind the negligent use of classified info that would land any one else in jail.
Huh - I wonder why the polls didn't budge when the NYT Democrat Party Paper savaged Trump?
Weird.
eh - Save it Farmer - It's old trite BS.
How anyone could arrogantly quantify what evangelicals like or want is astoundingly ... arrogant.
Americans want and end to our government giving free-loaders and bad actors OUR money.
Andrew S said
We’ve also seen the rather successful reframing of the Mueller probe. Trump’s absurd counter-narrative — the real collusion was between the Clintons and Russia! — has given the right some way to handle the reality of an otherwise disastrous scandal. Missteps by McCabe and Strzok and now Rosenstein have been exploited mercilessly. The shock, moreover, for the rest of us, has worn off, and the accumulating details and countless subplots have blurred the picture. Mueller will likely give us nothing before the midterms,...
Yes - that's what it is all about, huh Andrew. Mueller needs to GIVE you something.
Rosenstien suggested that Comey operated outside of norms in major ways and Trump fired him. Turns out we all find out that Comey is a deranged weirdo who operates using his own rules.
What to we get for Rosensteins's suggestion to Trump that Comey is unfit? - a bogus tax payer funded witch hunt.
Yes - Andrew, Hillary took in millions from the Russians during her tenure. Using that Private Server.
And the "mis-steps" by mccabe and Strozk - eh - not big deal.
What the left have become: A hivemeind of blind-faith bad faith corruption excusers.
Turkish authorities claim to have evidence to support their claims
What evidence do they have for the Armenians?
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
eh - Save it Farmer - It's old trite BS.
How anyone could arrogantly quantify what evangelicals like or want is astoundingly ... arrogant.
Well there is actually a very simple method...ask evangelicals what they think.
"We see the embassy as crucial to God’s timing to bring about the revelation of the messiah,” the Rev. David Swaggerty, the leader of CharismaLife Ministries in Columbus, Ohio, said following a joint Christian-Jewish Bible study session hosted at the Israeli parliament the day before the embassy ceremony.
“For evangelical Christians the embassy move is part of eschatology,” the expectation of what will transpire at the end of times,” explained Rabbi David Rosen, director of the American Jewish Committee‘s Department of Interreligious Affairs. “The return of the Jewish people to their ancestral homeland and the reestablishment of Jewish sovereignty in Jerusalem is seen as a stage ultimately leading to the full messianic era."
And of course there is the view directly from Trump's mouth:
"I tell you what, I get more calls of thank you from evangelicals, and I see it in the audiences and everything else, than I do from Jewish people,” Trump said. “And the Jewish people appreciate it but the evangelicals appreciate it more than the Jews.”
And here is Richard Land in 2005:
"Evangelicals generally view the Middle East through a biblical prism and thus are staunch supporters of Israel, experts say. Richard Land, head of the Southern Baptist Convention’s public policy arm, said at a CFR meeting in September 2005 that his group does not "give blind acceptance of everything that the state of Israel does or has done." But he added: "I think it’s safe to say that a significant majority of the people who identify themselves as evangelicals believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jews ... and that God has said that God blesses those who bless the Jews and God curses those who curse the Jews."
And if this is all too anecdotal for you, we can turn to polls of evangelicals:
"Researchers found evangelicals see a close tie between God and Israel.
About 7 in 10 (69 percent) say the modern nation of Israel was formed as result of biblical prophecy. A similar number (70 percent) say God has a special relationship with the modern nation of Israel. And nearly three-fourths of evangelicals (73 percent) say events in Israel are part of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation."
More Andrew:
Women are no more a single ideological bloc than men, as a majority of white female voters proved in the 2016 election, when they voted for the gross dude over the feminist icon.
What makes Hillary a feminist icon? Is it her abusive destruction of ALL of Bill's sexual abuse accusers. There were 10 of them in all. I thought we were, according to Hillary herself, to believe the accused? No matter what - because woman.
Is she an icon because she used her Husbands name, and solid blue states, to climb the political ladder? Is it her use of a Private Server while head of the State Dept? (who does that?)
or is it simply that she's got a D after her name?
Farmer- Evangelicals are no different from anyone else. Stop using Tax Payer dollars to fund international holes.
Sullivan has the distinction of being the least anti-Trump guest of Maher this season. Usually the token RINO is straight from the NeverTrump mental wards.
Sorry Farmer - some quotes here and there are meaningless.
The biblical stuff is tired trite TIRED TRITE (did I say tired and trite? - why yes I did) nonsense pushed by the anti-Israel lobby. or - the left.
God and Israel = Evangelical. Evangelical = God and Israel. Or perhaps it's God+Evangelical = Israel. Ooo I read the economist. It's so fucking boring and simplistic nobody gives shit. Not even evangelicals. Throw in some "end times' Cliche's for good measure.
Evangelicals like Isreal = and everyone else hates Israel and loves them some sweet sweet Palestinian. Can we please send the palis more money because it's awesome what they've accomplished.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
"Farmer- Evangelicals are no different from anyone else."
Of course they are "different." They have different worldviews and different perspectives. Evangelicals are, for example, more pro-life than other groups. Yet, if I were to make that obvious, I doubt very much that you would say, "How anyone could arrogantly quantify what evangelicals like or want is astoundingly ... arrogant."
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
The biblical stuff is tired trite TIRED TRITE (did I say tired and trite? - why yes I did) nonsense pushed by the anti-Israel lobby. or - the left.
Except the information I gave you came directly from the mouths of evangelicals, from Trump himself, and from polls conducted by LifeWay Christian Resources, the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. Netanyahu himselfa has made a point of cultivating relationships with evangelical groups in Latin America. And from Christians United for Israel's statement of purpose:
"The purpose of Christians United For Israel (CUFI) is to provide a national association through which every pro-Israel church, parachurch organization, ministry or individual in America can speak and act with one voice in support of Israel in matters related to Biblical issues."
Oh that's right - Only Evangelicals care about Israel - and they are pulling all the stings.
Most Americans LOVE the idea of endless American funding of the Palestinians. Decades of funding.. and more finding... Never enough funding.
If only those dastardly Evangelicals would go away.
Polls! omg - Can't think without a poll. We should swallow them whole like good blue pill talking epsilons. Of course the polls would never be rigged to showcase a tired and trite cliche about end times and the solidarity that evangelicals feel with the Armageddon machine called Israel.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
MOHR Money for Palestinian hospitals. yeah - I read a poll that's where it goes.
LOLOLOL.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Oh that's right - Only Evangelicals care about Israel - and they are pulling all the stings.
With all due respect, you are attacking a strawman here. Nobody has said that "only evangelicals care about Israel." But the fact remains that for evangelicals the issue of Israel is far more significant and consequential than for non-evangelical Americans.
Most Americans LOVE the idea of endless American funding of the Palestinians. Decades of funding.. and more finding... Never enough funding.
If only those dastardly Evangelicals would go away.
If anyone has made the point you are attacking, please reference it. Neither anyone here nor Sullivan himself has complained that there is "never enough funding." My own position, as I have stated repeatedly, is that we should not be funding either side. So, again, if you want to attack strawmen, go ahead. But please do not pretend that anything you have said is a response to anything myself or Sullivan has advocated.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Polls! omg - Can't think without a poll. We should swallow them whole like good blue pill talking epsilons. Of course the polls would never be rigged to showcase a tired and trite cliche about end times and the solidarity that evangelicals feel with the Armageddon machine called Israel.
Right, Christians United for Israel, which has over 4 million members, and the Southern Baptist Convention, which has 15 million members, have no clue what they actually believe about Israel and shouldn't be trusted when they express their views.
Now an anonymous Internet commenter with the charming handle "Dickin'Bimbos@Home" is much more tied into the evangelical community and what they believe.
Has Sullivan ever expressed any repentance for the patently evil hatred he had for Palin ? The poor man tried to stir up vicious hatred for her based on .... believe it or not .... her status as the mother of a child with birth defects.
If I had spent years saying similarly vicious things about Obama's running mate Biden, or Romney's running mate (tell the truth, you had to think for a second or two before remembering who that was), if I had spent years using an "internet platform" to inhumanly try to start a campaign of hate against them because of ... of all things ... because of their disputed status as the parent of a child with birth defects .... I would have written a book titled I was Wrong, after I realized what I had been doing.
Seriously, was Sullivan on some kind of medication that distorted his view of the world in such a way that he thought it was a good idea to try and sponsor a campaign of hatred for someone because they claimed to be the parent of a disabled child?
Was it his fame, his status as a person with a life-threatening disease, or just true hatred?
Farmer
I'm untied from the big cliche.
@Stephen Cooper:
Has Sullivan ever expressed any repentance for the patently evil hatred he had for Palin ? The poor man tried to stir up vicious hatred for her based on .... believe it or not .... her status as the mother of a child with birth defects.
I don't think you can describe Sullivan's position towards Palin as "patently evil" or as trying to "stir up vicious hatred for her."
I was never convinced by Sullivan but there is nothing particularly "evil" about questioning a particular narrative about the birth of one's child. People similarly questioned John Kerry's Vietnam record (e.g. the whole Swiftboat affair) and people did drudge up embarrassing lies Biden had told about his academic record. I would not consider either of these efforts to challenge official narratives about a candidates' life as "patently evil."
har - Farmer -you might want to re-read Sullivan's little dance into the cliche about how there's just never enough funding for Palestinian schools and hospitals.
It's right there.
Germany's leading right-of-center daily Die Welt this morning reveals that Jamal Khashoggi was not a journalist, but a high-level operative for the Saudi intelligence service, an intimate of Osama bin Laden, and the nephew of the shadiest of all Arab arms dealers, the infamous Adnan Khashoggi. John Bradley reported last week in the Spectator that Khashoggi, who allegedly met a grisly end in a Saudi consulate in Istanbul, was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist organization that among other things wants to replace the Saudi monarchy with a modern Islamist totalitarian state.
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/german-press-reveals-saudi-spook-saga-behind-khashoggi-disappearance/
If true, it could have been part of running down the bin Laden network. But let's all jump to the conclusions that the press wants us to, it's a failure of Trump!
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
I'm untied from the big cliche.
That's fine. But when Trump says, "I tell you what, I get more calls of thank you from evangelicals, and I see it in the audiences and everything else, than I do from Jewish people,” Trump said. “And the Jewish people appreciate it but the evangelicals appreciate it more than the Jews," is it your position that he is lying? Incorrect? What?
was never convinced by Sullivan but there is nothing particularly "evil" about questioning a particular narrative about the birth of one's child.
Except he had no grounds whatsoever other than an animus toward her and a belief that if she said the sky was blue, it must be red. Do you defend other "birthers" the same way?
@tim in vermont:
If true, it could have been part of running down the bin Laden network. But let's all jump to the conclusions that the press wants us to, it's a failure of Trump!
The establishment media is going to try to spin every story in the world as a "failure of Trump." That is irrelevant and can be dismissed.
But as for your claim that it was "part of running down the bin Laden network," please read the sources you link to:
And Jamal had met Osama bin Laden several times. He had tried during the 1990s to move him away from militancy. That was obviously important why he visited bin Laden in Sudan and Afghanistan. He told bin Laden that he should mitigate his criticism of the royal family and return home.
@tim in vermont:
Except he had no grounds whatsoever other than an animus toward her and a belief that if she said the sky was blue, it must be red. Do you defend other "birthers" the same way?
Sullivan laid out his grounds for questioning Palin's story, and they are available to anyone who cares to read them. I did not find him particularly convincing. And nor did I find birthers particularly convincing, but I never once described birtherism as "patently evil."
Israel has ties to the bible? no way! how dare those evangelicals use Israel like that.
it's best to support the eternal victims.
Sullivan's walk into the cliche is sort of falling apart, isn't it?
Especially bold of Sullivan to throw Khashoggi into this KKK meme. Despite the WaPo's coyness, it is apparently common-place knowledge by Mideast types that Khashoggi is a Muslim Brotherhood backer. The circumstances of his disappearance are very very murky, and anyone who relies on Erdogan and Qatar to clarify them is a fool.
As to this article in general, I got as far as Sullivan disavowing he's making the Hitler analogy with Trump and then spinning out some pop-history analogizing about how our current Republican regime is like Weimar. Hitler analogy without Hitler, I guess. He even compares Mitch McConnell to Von Hindenburg, I kid you not. The lust for apocalypse runs strong on the left. Even halfway intelligent liberals cannot seem to kick the habit
If Evangelicals appreciate stuff Trump does - whoopie ding?
Hollywood appreciates stuff Obama did.
...and Hollywood new-ager (thanks Crack) elites are more of a cult than any crazy evangelical.
Q: Why move the embassy?
A: Because embassies go in capitals.
If the U.S. moved an embassy out of Beijing I could see the cause for concern.
J Farmer - to be fair, my bar for evil is pretty low.
If I am tired and do not want to stop at the store on the way home, and therefore I feed my cat the dry food that is sorted in my kitchen, which is difficult for her to eat instead of wet canned food which she likes and enjoys, I consider myself to be acting in an evil way.
Sullivan was given many graces in life and he targeted a person who will spend every year of her life, going forward, taking care of a child with birth defects. He targeted that person again and again. Sure she had more power than him, but he is extremely intelligent - it is possible he understands the nuances of Oakeshott as well, or even better, than me - and he chose to use his verbal skills and his platform to "question" a poor fellow human being about one of the greatest tragedies that can fall to any of us, the tragedy of not being able to watch our children grow up in a healthy and successful way.
So please disregard the word evil, and refocus on this - the man targeted the mother, or the grandmother, of a child who suffered - and remember this, almost all of the suffering is the child's, other people will be able to "put it in perspective", while the child continues to suffer - the man targeted the mother or the grandmother of such a child.
I know the word "evil" is a trigger word for many people, and I should probably avoid it. But that was some seriously crazy hatred that Sullivan appeared to feel. I even felt sorry for his little beagle, having to sit in the same room with him while he typed that crazy stuff.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Israel has ties to the bible? no way! how dare those evangelicals use Israel like that.
it's best to support the eternal victims.
That isn't the argument, but given your propensity for attacking strawmen rather than the actual arguments you have been confronted with, it is no surprise.
From LifeWay's poll, which you can read here
"Table 2 - When you think of the modern rebirth of the State of Israel in 1948 and the regathering of millions of Jewish people to Israel, which of the following statements best
represents your personal views?
Those age 50-64 (82%) are more likely to select “These events were fulfillments of Bible
prophecy that show we are getting closer to the return of Jesus Christ” than those 35-49 (76%). Other Ethnicities are the most likely ethnic group to select “These events were fulfillments of Bible prophecy that show we are getting closer to the return of Jesus Christ” (91%). Those who are high school graduates or less (82%) or with some college (81%) are more likely to select “These events were fulfillments of Bible prophecy that show we are getting closer to the return of Jesus Christ” than those with a Graduate Degree (73%)."
Table 8 – “When God promised Abraham and his descendants the land of Israel, the promise was for all time.” n=1,980
Those age 50-64 (83%) and 65+ (86%) are more likely to Agree than those 18-34 (72%) and 35-
49 (75%)."
Polls of evangelicals are easy. Allow me to demonstrate.
Q: Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?
A: Yes. That is a great part of what makes one a Christian.
Q: Do you believe Jews (or Israelites) are God's chosen people?
A: Yes. That is written in the Bible. See question #1.
Q: Do you believe the book of Revelations?
A: See question #1.
Q: Do you believe current events could be those described in the book of Revelations?
A: Sure. I have no evidence that they are not. So they could.
Poll Results: Christians are nutso for Israel because they believe oral traditions of a nomadic tribe from the Middle East were inspired by God.
I should be a Leftist pollster.
@Birkel:
Q: Why move the embassy?
A: Because embassies go in capitals.
If the U.S. moved an embassy out of Beijing I could see the cause for concern.
The reason every president since Reagan has not taken this move is because East Jerusalem is disputed territory, and its final disposition is up to negotiations between the the Israelis and the Palestinians. Here is that well known anti-Israel leftist Ronald Reagan speaking on the point:
"President Reagan said today that it would be ''most unwise'' for the United States to move its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and he strongly suggested that he would veto legislation in Congress to require such a step.
In an interview, Mr. Reagan said a bill requiring the embassy to be moved ''should never have been introduced in Congress.'' He said the disposition of Jerusalem, the West Bank of the Jordan River and other areas ''must be negotiated'' between Israel and the Arab countries.
Asked if he would veto legislation on the embassy, the President said: ''I am hoping I won't have to. But like the several previous Presidents before me, I think that that is a most unwise thing.'"
@Birkel:
Poll Results: Christians are nutso for Israel because they believe oral traditions of a nomadic tribe from the Middle East were inspired by God.
I should be a Leftist pollster.
Not quite. There are quite a few Christian groups that do not have as uniformly positive a view of Israel. For example, Catholics. Also, the advocacy for Christian Zionism and the concept of "Judeo-Christianity" is pretty much a product of the 19th century, not exactly an idea deeply embedded in Christianity.
Disputed territory? Disputed by whom? Why should I care about the claims of one group that does not hold the land and is unwilling to start a war to press their claims?
I think you will find Israel does not dispute where its capital is.
@Stephen Cooper:
So please disregard the word evil, and refocus on this - the man targeted the mother, or the grandmother, of a child who suffered - and remember this, almost all of the suffering is the child's, other people will be able to "put it in perspective", while the child continues to suffer - the man targeted the mother or the grandmother of such a child.
I know the word "evil" is a trigger word for many people, and I should probably avoid it. But that was some seriously crazy hatred that Sullivan appeared to feel. I even felt sorry for his little beagle, having to sit in the same room with him while he typed that crazy stuff.
Is it your position that anyone with a special needs child should never be confronted in anything they claim lest they cause suffering to said child?
I consider birtherism stupid but not evil. Do you consider it evil? Why or why not?
He had tried during the 1990s to move him away from militancy.
Who says? This is like the FBI letting the Feinstein spy go because he assured them that he didn't actually spy on anything. I always figure that the people who know aren't talking , and the people who are talking don't know.
J. Farmer,
Your 5:23 reads like the teacher in Charlie Brown sounds. Nothing you typed mattered. And your powers of Smug have little effect on me.
Again, the premise offered by the Left is that belief in the Bible is itself crazy. That is also true of many non-believers, which I believe you have labeled yourself previously.
Do you consider it evil? Why or why not?
Evil? Probably not, but callous without a higher end in mind? Sure. That would pass for evil with a lot of people, BTW.
tim in vermont:
I had exactly the same thought about the conversations from the 1990s. Whoever was telling that tale almost definitely had self-interest in spinning the story in that way.
@Birkel:
Disputed territory? Disputed by whom?
By the people that live there, to start with. And by the entire international community, including the US for the last 50 years, every single major US ally, and by the chief legal counselor to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1967.
Why should I care about the claims of one group that does not hold the land and is unwilling to start a war to press their claims?
It is not "one group." See above.
I think you will find Israel does not dispute where its capital is.
If in August of 1990, Iraq declared its capital to be Kuwait City, would the rest of the world be obligated to acknowledge this? After all, Iraq "does not dispute where its capital is."
I kind of figure, BTW, that the Saudis likely know more about the bin Laden financiers and supporters in the kingdom there than anybody else. I will wait for something believable before I get all bent out of shape because the WaPo told me to shit, I am not asking them what color. Also I am not holding my breath for the truth to come out, especially when Turkey is involve.
@tim in vermont:
Who says?
The person you linked to in the PJ Media article.
@Birkel:
Your 5:23 reads like the teacher in Charlie Brown sounds. Nothing you typed mattered. And your powers of Smug have little effect on me.
That's fine, but you are the one who typed, "Christians are nutso for Israel because they believe oral traditions of a nomadic tribe from the Middle East were inspired by God."
There is no such uniformity among "Christians."
I'm glad we have the Christians dissected based on their approval, or not, of Israel.
How about his - America supports Israel. The rest of the world can support Palestine - build them more hospitals and schools and stuff. Seems like a fair trade.
If the guy was part of the bin Laden network, I am not going to cry over a torture/murder, BTW. And my bet is that the torture involved likely met the common definition of torture that obtained before people redefined the word in an effort to attack George W Bush.
We never should have approved that treaty against harsh interrogation, BTW. Trump should probably pull us out of it, but I doubt there is a country than honors it as written.
J. Farmer: If in August of 1990, Iraq declared its capital to be Kuwait City, would the rest of the world be obligated to acknowledge this? After all, Iraq "does not dispute where its capital is."
Me: Why should I care about the claims of one group that does not hold the land and is unwilling to start a war to press their claims?
I will wait here for you to determine my answer.
The person you linked to in the PJ Media article.
This is why arguing with you is pointless. It was a rhetorical question, obviously, that points to the fact that we are taking the word of somebody with a self interest of exculpating himself regarding 9-11.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
I'm glad we have the Christians dissected based on their approval, or not, of Israel.
How about his - America supports Israel. The rest of the world can support Palestine - build them more hospitals and schools and stuff. Seems like a fair trade.
Does that mean you reject your position from two hours ago--"How anyone could arrogantly quantify what evangelicals like or want is astoundingly ... arrogant."--is no longer operative?
How about his - America supports Israel. The rest of the world can support Palestine - build them more hospitals and schools and stuff. Seems like a fair trade.
Right. Because no other country outside of America "supports Israel." This would certainly come as a shock to Netanyahu and his government. Perhaps you can inform him.
J. Farmer
When you don't recognize me mocking pollsters, it only acts to demonstrate your terminal case of Smug. You see, mockery does not state the author's opinion, but rather the hypothesized, comedic, absurd position held by the mocked.
And you, a pedant!?!
@tim in vermont:
If the guy was part of the bin Laden network, I am not going to cry over a torture/murder, BTW. And my bet is that the torture involved likely met the common definition of torture that obtained before people redefined the word in an effort to attack George W Bush
Did you actually read the link you provided? Your own link disputes the notion that Khashoggi was "part of the bin Laden network."
Farmer- You are the one who brought up the evangelicals. Not me. I find the obsession with them TIRED.
Yes I stand by my opinion that it is stupid to try to quantify how they think with silly polls. You want think with a poll, you do it.
Americans of all stripes are sick of being fleeced for so called Palestinian schools and hospitals.
@Birkel:
When you don't recognize me mocking pollsters, it only acts to demonstrate your terminal case of Smug. You see, mockery does not state the author's opinion, but rather the hypothesized, comedic, absurd position held by the mocked.
And you, a pedant!?!
Yes, blah blah blah, you have made such statements numerous times before. Perhaps when people terminally fail to get your "mockery," it's because you are not half as clever (or funny) as you imagine yourself to be.
Either way, I don't give a shit.
I gave you an opportunity to address me directly, and (exactly as I suspected) you pussied out. So please spare me your lectures.
J. Farmer.
Like I said, my bar for evil is pretty low, so my use of the word is misleading.
I really like the Santa Claus who is portrayed in the beloved Yuletide classic "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer", but he was cruel to Rudolph and Rudolph's dad (he - Santa - repented a couple minutes before the end of the show, but for materialistic reasons - we never know if he actually accepted Jesus in his heart, if he actually learned that it is always wrong to be cruel). Such cruelty is always heartbreaking. And, yes, it is evil if is unrepented.
So, to be fair, you are communicating with someone who thinks that the Santa Claus of "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" was, in at least one aspect of his life, evil. But that is the world we live in!
David, who is named in one of the most beautiful of Christmas carols (something that will never happen to me, certainly, and probably not to you) was cruel to the husband of Bathsheeba. Lincoln, who got his picture on coinage and currency, as if he were an admirable human being, was cruel to the black people he claimed to have befriended, labeling them as incapable of sustaining civilization. Tolkien - one of the best people to ever write a readable novel - was cruel to his son, a war hero, to whom he wrote that he thought that military airplanes were intrinsically evil. Everybody loved Louis Armstrong except those who knew him best, who thought he was selfish, if I heard correctly.
Look, Andrew Sullivan is an "internet personality" and a guy who makes a good living being intelligent and eloquent.
If you ask him if he though he did something evil, he is going to tell you he was "fighting against powerful forces" and that "America deserved better." He may even get mad at you.
Every single time I see someone I respect doing something questionable, I hope they have a good excuse. But that poor child - the suffering of the child, the anguish of the parents - who could "target" the child and the people who gave a loving home to the child, without losing something of their own humanity? Without obviously losing so much of their humanity that those looking on the person doing the slander as someone who is flirting with evil? (People on all sides of the political spectrum do this, but we are now talking about just one person. I am not saying he is the only one to do this).
For the record, I have never once fed my cat dry cat food to start with at suppertime, after my work day. I leave her dry cat food to eat over the day, in the morning, when I am gone, because it is good for her teeth - but the world she lives in is a world where nobody would ever feed her dry cat food at the end of the day, when in her sad little life it is so important that the food be wet.
And yes, I know the good things Andrew Sullivan has tried to do. I disagree with him on some things, agree with him on others.
Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Farmer- You are the one who brought up the evangelicals. Not me. I find the obsession with them TIRED.
Uhh...no. Go back and reread the thread. Evangelicals were brought up when you quoted Sullivan.
Andrew Sullivan
On the foreign front, the key issue motivating the evangelical and activist right is Israel.
Simplistic tired trite nonsense .
10/14/18, 3:12 PM
Yes I stand by my opinion that it is stupid to try to quantify how they think with silly polls. You want think with a poll, you do it.
I did not provide you with simple polls. I quoted evangelicals, I quoted Trump, I quoted Christians United for Israel, and I quoted the head Southern Baptist Convention.
Americans of all stripes are sick of being fleeced for so called Palestinian schools and hospitals.
No such fleecing is occuring, except in your fevered imagination.
J. Farmer,
Do you not understand that I don't engage with you because your Smug is offensive? Do you not understand that I find you tedious whether I agree or disagree with you? Do you not recognize that I don't care one whit about "winning" an online argument involving you?
For all your supposed analytical skills you sure do fail to recognize a lot of patently obvious things, even after I type those things for your convenience.
@Stephen Cooper:
Every single time I see someone I respect doing something questionable, I hope they have a good excuse. But that poor child - the suffering of the child, the anguish of the parents - who could "target" the child and the people who gave a loving home to the child, without losing something of their own humanity? Without obviously losing so much of their humanity that those looking on the person doing the slander as someone who is flirting with evil? (People on all sides of the political spectrum do this, but we are now talking about just one person. I am not saying he is the only one to do this).
If it is simply a difference in nomenclature, then that is fine. You seem to concede that you are more loose with the term than others. That is fine.
From my perspective, if you can use the word "evil" to describe, say, the systematic slaughter of innocents by the Nazis in the 1940s and to describe a political candidate's narrative of the birth of their child, then I think the word "evil" is losing some of its bite in that context.
Also, your position seems to be that anyone who has a child with special needs cannot ever be questioned about any statement they ever make in regards to said child, lest they risk the "losing something of their own humanity."
If it is perfectly permissible to question the claims Christine Bailey Ford made (and I think it is), I do not see any reason why questioning the claims of Sarah Palin should be off limits. Question everybody's claim. If Palin does not want her personal biography (and that of her children) exposed to public scrutiy, she has a very simple solution: don't accept the offer of vice presidency.
@Birkel:
Do you not understand that I don't engage with you because your Smug is offensive?
Do you understand that I do not care at all if of if not you engage with me?
Do you not understand that I find you tedious whether I agree or disagree with you?
What you think about me has zero meaning in my life.
Do you not recognize that I don't care one whit about "winning" an online argument involving you?
Once again, what you care or don't care about is meaningless to me.
For all your supposed analytical skills you sure do fail to recognize a lot of patently obvious things, even after I type those things for your convenience.
Not recognizing and not caring are two very different things.
J. Farmer,
Why would you criticize me for using mockery as a rhetorical device and criticize me as if I had been saying the things I was mocking, if you didn't care in the slightest? That seems quite odd. And you answered me four different times to say you don't care. That's got to be one of the oddest ways not to care ever offered.
The weight of evidence that you are providing is inconsistent with your declarations.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
No Farmer - Trump pulled the plug and for that I am grateful.
It wasn't occurring even before them.
I'm not even an Evangelical.
"Evangelicals" were at topic you introduced the conversation by quoting Sullivan, nobody else.
*how can that be*?/?? *tilt*
Because nobody, myself and Sullivan included, has ever claimed that only evangelicals care about Israel. That is a strawman you seem to think highly of yourself for knocking down.
Another explanation is that you recognized the mockery but decided to argue that the words you quoted were actually my personally held beliefs because you are not arguing in good faith. Wouldn't that be an interesting admission against your own interests?
Not caring and constantly answering: inconsistent.
Not caring, but fully aware (not not recognizing), and purposefully misrepresenting the views of others: dishonest.
Well this is fun.
@Birkel:
Why would you criticize me for using mockery as a rhetorical device and criticize me as if I had been saying the things I was mocking, if you didn't care in the slightest? That seems quite odd. And you answered me four different times to say you don't care. That's got to be one of the oddest ways not to care ever offered.
For all the reasons I respond to anyone who engages with me. I find the back and forth enjoyuable. You, personally, I don't give a shit about. What you think about me, I don't give a shit about. What you think about my style or my personality, I don't give a shit about.
Understand?
Not a straw-man - emphasis on the left's general obsession with Evangelicals and their support Israel and how that support is some sort of a conspiracy.. .. that we NEVER tire of hearing about.
So you were arguing in bad faith, because you accurately identified mockery but didn't care?
Or
You did not recognize mockery.
Are you willing to choose?
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Not a straw-man - emphasis on the left's general obsession with Evangelicals and their support Israel and how that support is some sort of a conspiracy.. .. that we NEVER tire of hearing about.
This is not an emphasis that exists only "on the left." Also, neither Sullivan nor anyone here has said that it amounts to "a conspiracy." Especially considering that evangelicals will voice their support for Israel quite readily.
The fact of the matter is that evangelicals are a distinct subgroup in America, they have distinct voting patterns, and are as a group disproportionately supportive of Israel vis-à-vis other Americans. This is all factual information, and there is nothing untoward about pointing it out.
@Birkel:
So you were arguing in bad faith, because you accurately identified mockery but didn't care?
Or
You did not recognize mockery.
Are you willing to choose?
I do not know when or if you are using mockery. And I do not care. When the topic of the thread becomes, "Is Birkel using mockery," and I choose to participate, then I will give you my opinion. Until then, whether or not you were or are using mockery means about as much to me as the dirt on this floor.
Then why would evangelical support of Israel matter in any context? why mention it?
It's a tired cliche' going back decades. and it is mentioned with conspiracy in mind. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
The fact of the matter is that evangelicals are a distinct subgroup in America, they have distinct voting patterns, and are as a group disproportionately supportive of Israel vis-à-vis other Americans. This is all factual information, and there is nothing untoward about pointing it out.
Hogwash.
I live in a 70% democrat town and most of the protestant churches here lean left. Are they "evangelicals?"
Birkel said...
Polls of evangelicals are easy. Allow me to demonstrate.
Q: Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?
A: Yes. That is a great part of what makes one a Christian.
Q: Do you believe Jews (or Israelites) are God's chosen people?
A: Yes. That is written in the Bible. See question #1.
Q: Do you believe the book of Revelations?
A: See question #1.
Q: Do you believe current events could be those described in the book of Revelations?
A: Sure. I have no evidence that they are not. So they could.
Poll Results: Christians are nutso for Israel because they believe oral traditions of a nomadic tribe from the Middle East were inspired by God.
I should be a Leftist pollster.
10/14/18, 5:14 PM Delete
------------
The above is what J. Farmer now pretends (READ: lies) he could not determine was mockery.
Andrew Sullivan had every right to make false allegations about Sara Palin's womb.
Because Andrew is an Obama-evangelical cultist.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Then why would evangelical support of Israel matter in any context? why mention it?
It's a tired cliche' going back decades. and it is mentioned with conspiracy in mind. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
Let me reword your statement in a different context: "Then why would black support of the Democratic party matter in any context? why mention it? It's a tired cliche' going back decades. and it is mentioned with conspiracy in mind. To say otherwise is disingenuous."
Would you agree with that statement?
I live in a 70% democrat town and most of the protestant churches here lean left. Are they "evangelicals?"
I do not know anything about your town or those churches, so I obviously have no opinion. But whether or not they are is completely meaningless.
The GOP has been courting the vote of the "religious right" for nearly 40 years. Are they participating in a conspiracy or does such a voting bloc exist?
Your own link disputes the notion that Khashoggi was "part of the bin Laden network."
And I suggested that the denial was self serving. Do you believe every denial you hear?
Evangelical means, as I understand it, religiously affiliated people who recruit non-members into the religion. That would include many non-Christians.
Who would ever suspect that a spy would have a cover story?
Actually Farmer - you outed yourself as an arrogant prick with that comment.
Again - you and Andy are the ones obsessed with evangelicals. That you turn it into a racial argument makes you well, kind of a racist dick.
I think I've met some people who could be labeled evangelical atheists.
@Birkel:
The above is what J. Farmer now pretends (READ: lies) he could not determine was mockery.
That's not what I could not determine. What I could not determine was what your point was.
Birkel, you have told me over and over again, that you do not care for me or my style. That's fine. Yoi're not the first, and you won't be the last. I have never asked you to take anything I say seriously. You have also said that you only engage with me because it brings you pleasure to do so. Fine, I am happy a stranger like myself can inject some pleasure in your life. But I am also not going to lose a second of sleep over anything you think or feel about me. I don't know you, and you don't know me. I hope the feeling is mutual. In which case, what is the point of this?
WE don't know anything about your poll,s Farmer - so why should we care?
Farmer "The religious right" exists, but so too does the "religious left."
ooough - but it doens't work very well with standardized talking points.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Again - you and Andy are the ones obsessed with evangelicals. That you turn it into a racial argument makes you well, kind of a racist dick.
I did not turn it into a "racial argument," and the fact that you are now lableing me a "racist dick" in light of our disagreement is straight out of the Social Justice Warrior playbook. My point was that blacks disproportionately favor the Democratic Party. I don't consider that "racist" to say, and I don't consider it a conspiracy.
Evangelicals are more opposed to abortion than Americans in general. Is that statement also promulgating a wild conspiracy theory? Or is it only when discussing evangelical attitudes towards Israel that it becomes a conspiracy theory?
Evangelicals are such a thorn in the side of the Sully and the Farmer.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
WE don't know anything about your poll,s Farmer - so why should we care?
They are not my polls. I only referenced a single poll and it was a poll conducted by LifeWay, the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. I also gave you a link that detailed their methodology. Did you read it?
Farmer "The religious right" exists, but so too does the "religious left."
ooough - but it doens't work very well with standardized talking points.
I criticize the so called "religious left" all the time over absurd notions like men and women are identical or there is no such thing as race. In fact, it was just yesterday that you were agreeing with me in a post about Taylor Swift when I said, "It's not okay to be white." You didn't seem to think I was a "racist dick" in that context. Apparently it is only when I disagree with you that I become a horrible person.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Evangelicals are such a thorn in the side of the Sully and the Farmer.
They are not a thorn in my side. But I am describing them accurately. That seems to be the only source of your consternation.
Of course we would be far less beholden to the Saudis had we opened ANWR to drilling and approved Keystone when they were proposed. And we know full well that those screaming the loudest about this murder of a guy who seemed like he was willingly part of the game were players sometimes end up dead also opposed strengthening our energy security so we could more effectively stand up to the Saudis.
My point: I have determined you are either unable to read well or you are lying.
Ask 100 people you know to read the list of Q&A I hypothesized above and ask people if you think the author was representing their own personally held beliefs. None will be confused.
That makes you special in a terrible way. You either struggle to understand emotions (likely) or you are a liar (less likely but certainly not improbable) and either causes you to be a pedant. It makes your Smug understandable, frankly, if you cannot recognize emotions.
Francisco D would have better luck understanding you than do I. But I'm not too far wrong in my guesses about you.
@Birkel:
That makes you special in a terrible way. You either struggle to understand emotions (likely) or you are a liar (less likely but certainly not improbable) and either causes you to be a pedant. It makes your Smug understandable, frankly, if you cannot recognize emotions.
Yep. I am everything you say I am, and you probably should not waste time engaging with me in the future.
Deal?
It's a tell sign when certain groups are singled out.
blah blah blah Southern Baptists...
Actually Farmer - from time to time you make good points and I've said so in the past - so yes when I agree with you, or thought you said something fresh I say so.
The Sully evangelical crap is not fresh. It's as stale as a soiled diaper. and yet you still bring it up.
Have fun. Gotta go.
No, J. Farmer. No.
You were either dishonest, in trying to impute words to me that were not my own, or you genuinely cannot discern normal human emotions or literary devices.
It's cool. I get your pedantry and your Smug. I believe you cannot help yourself. But you don't get to limit me.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
It's a tell sign when certain groups are singled out.
blah blah blah Southern Baptists...
I did not single them out. They singled themselves out. They are the ones who conducted the poll (which you still haven't read but are ready to denounce). Also, we are talking about evangelicals, and the Southern Baptist Convention, with over 15,000,000 members, is a leading evangelical organization.
The Sully evangelical crap is not fresh. It's as stale as a soiled diaper. and yet you still bring it up.
Remember, you brought it up, not me. And just because something is "stale" does not mean it isn't true.
@Birkel:
You were either dishonest, in trying to impute words to me that were not my own, or you genuinely cannot discern normal human emotions or literary devices
Every criticism you make about me is fair and accurate. You're right. I'm wrong. You're modest. I'm smug. Blah blah blah.
Whatever you want to claim about me personally, go right ahead.
"On Tuesday night, I was in an auditorium with 100 black men in the city of Baltimore, when the subject pivoted to Brett Kavanaugh. I expected to hear frustration that the sexual-assault allegations against him had failed to derail his Supreme Court appointment. Instead, I encountered sympathy. One man stood up and asked, passionately, “What happened to due process?” He was met with a smattering of applause, and an array of head nods."- The Atlantic
Hill says this support makes a “twisted kind of sense,”
The white left is always the last to know.
You see, J. Farmer, I understand you do not mean the words you typed. I am able to discern that those words were typed not as an accurate representation of your own personal feelings, but as a feeble attempt at... humor? No, maybe not humor... Condescension? Yes, that fits nicely.
You should trying reading for understanding some time. It's not that hard if your brain isn't hardwired against understanding emotion.
“American racial history is laced with vendetta-like scandals in which black men are accused of sexually assaulting white women,” followed eventually by the revelation “that the accused men were not wrongdoers at all.” She writes that “morning-after remorse can make sex that seemed like a good idea at the time look really alarming in retrospect; and the general social disadvantage that black men continue to carry in our culture can make it easier for everyone in the adjudicative process to put the blame on them.” She has observed the phenomenon at her own university: “Case after Harvard case that has come to my attention, including several in which I have played some advocacy or adjudication role, has involved black male respondents.” - The Atlantic
At least Sarah Palin never accused Glen Rice of rape.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/brett-kavanaugh-confirmation-fight-race/
I am starting to appreciate the National Review again. This Kavanaugh fight has been salutary for the right.
@Birkel:
You should trying reading for understanding some time. It's not that hard if your brain isn't hardwired against understanding emotion.
Everything you say is right, Birkel. Congratulations. Feel better now?
@tim in vermont:
I am starting to appreciate the National Review again. This Kavanaugh fight has been salutary for the right.
Don't start talking crazy now! Kavanaugh was a good pick and good thing he got confirmed, but any of potential nominees would have appointed Kavanaugh. National Review was Never Trump and remains a mouthpiece of GOP Inc.
You see, J. Farmer, I understand you do not mean those words. That is a skill I have. You should try it some time.
It's refreshing if you can do it.
@Birkel:
You see, J. Farmer, I understand you do not mean those words. That is a skill I have. You should try it some time.
It's refreshing if you can do it.
Yep.
So do you see that the words I typed were not a representation of my own beliefs, J. Farmer?
And that the comments you made to me at 5:23 and 5:34 were therefore stupid?
I gave you an opportunity to admit you were wrong. It's a simple thing, of course. But the Smug might not allow you to make such an admission.
You can still be a pedant, of course. But I'm going to notice and mention it.
BTW, you never responded to my 5:37.
@Birkel:
BTW, you never responded to my 5:37.
Yep.
Did you manage to understand why your question to me was ridiculous?
Did you notice I had anticipated your lame response and preemptively addressed it?
I guess I'm just not any good at stuff.
@Birkel:
Did you manage to understand why your question to me was ridiculous?
Did you notice I had anticipated your lame response and preemptively addressed it?
I guess I'm just not any good at stuff.
Yep.
One word answers are your second-best option, J. Farmer.
@Birkel:
One word answers are your second-best option, J. Farmer.
Yep.
Yep must cause less strain than admitting you were wrong, repeatedly.
Missteps by McCabe and Strzok and now Rosenstein have been exploited mercilessly.
Yes! Republicans pounce! AS is very sad that Trump is destroying lefty "accomplishments" and apparently for AS, "authoritarianism" has to do with using the constitutional powers that winning elections confers on a party.
"Pen and phone"? Not authoritarian. It's like it doesn't need to make sense, these columns just need to hit on all of the plot points expected by the Democrats.
@Birkel:
Yep must cause less strain than admitting you were wrong, repeatedly.
Yep.
Nobody will ever successfully get AS to define "authoritarianism" as he sees it.
tim in vermont,
Absolutely correct.
@tim in vermont:
Nobody will ever successfully get AS to define "authoritarianism" as he sees it.
I imagine Sullivan's thought process works something like this:
1) Trump is authoritarian
2) Trump did X
3) X is a sign of our growing authoritarianism
I imagine Sullivan's thought process works something like this:
1) Trump is authoritarian
2) Trump did X
3) X is a sign of our growing authoritarianism
Yep.
Interesting account of an assassination plot against Trump.
I don't know if I trust the USSS any more now.
Tim in Vermont@6:54. "The white left is always the last to know"
Hill is the black female released by ESPN for her criticism of Jerry Jones and her exhortation to boycott NFL advertisers who don't support Kapernick and the kneelers.
Strozk and Hillary are two of the biggest authoritarians going.
They lost.
Hillary and Peter Strozk - when Authoritarians make miss-steps.
Andrew, himself, is stale.
"Do you not understand that I don't engage with you because your Smug is offensive?"
"Not quite sure I agree with your police work there Lou."
In this case engage refers to 'take seriously' and 'treat as worthwhile' but does not mean 'ignore'.
The best Smug can get is indifference and unsubtle mockery.
Derision is a given.
* he has also shifted the entire polity more decisively toward the authoritarian style of government. *
Substitute Democrat for polity.
Whatever you want to claim about me personally, go right ahead.
10/14/18, 6:51 PM
Yep.
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