"... with senior aides conspiring to pluck official papers from the president’s desk so he couldn’t see or sign them. Again and again, Woodward recounts at length how Trump’s national security team was shaken by his lack of curiosity and knowledge about world affairs and his contempt for the mainstream perspectives of military and intelligence leaders. At a National Security Council meeting on Jan. 19, Trump disregarded the significance of the massive U.S. military presence on the Korean Peninsula, including a special intelligence operation that allows the United States to detect a North Korean missile launch in seven seconds vs. 15 minutes from Alaska, according to Woodward. Trump questioned why the government was spending resources in the region at all. 'We’re doing this in order to prevent World War III,' Defense Secretary Jim Mattis told him.... 'Mattis was particularly exasperated and alarmed, telling close associates that the president acted like — and had the understanding of — "a fifth- or sixth-grader."'... White House Chief of Staff John F. Kelly frequently lost his temper and told colleagues that he thought the president was 'unhinged,' Woodward writes. In one small group meeting, Kelly said of Trump: 'He’s an idiot. It’s pointless to try to convince him of anything. He’s gone off the rails. We’re in Crazytown. I don’t even know why any of us are here. This is the worst job I’ve ever had.'"
From "Bob Woodward’s new book reveals a ‘nervous breakdown’ of Trump’s presidency" (WaPo).
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१४६ टिप्पण्या:
You know who was knowledgeable and competent? Romney. But then there were hitler binders full of hitler women and hitler dogs on hitler roofs because hitler hitler hitler hitlery hitler. So, you got hitler Trump instead. And you deserve him, you stupid f***s.
It seems like Trump has done better at preventing WWIII than these guys, so far.
Isn't removing official papers awaiting the President's signature from his desk a federal crime?
"That's nitpicking, isn't it?"
So can we assume the Democrats aren't expecting to be able to lay a finger on Kavanaugh today, so we need a new controversy?
As noted earlier, Ann must be laughing her head off at this. Even though Woodward's whole book is lies built on his irrational hatred of trump, it's hilarious how comically stupid those jokers like McMaster, Kelly, Mattis and Cohn are. Thank God Trump got rid of those idiots. Oh, wait.
"Trump questioned why the government was spending resources in the region at all. 'We’re doing this in order to prevent World War III,' Defense Secretary Jim Mattis told him...." Heh. Is it okay for me to think that Trump is probably right, and Mattis is the one who sounds unhinged?
Sounds like a lot of "experts" who are used to everyone around them taking their assumptions for granted.
Woodward's work of fiction should sell well among those suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Woodward has no ax to grind, we can be sure. And these are verbatim quotes recorded contemporaneously. And there are multiple witnesses who will corroborate the claims.
This was at the time of his inauguration. Trump’s style is pretty unconventional and I suspect he demands compressed and cogent briefings, and multiple iterations to sift out the extraneous and identify the key graf. He was meeting his new team and possibly testing them. So I would cut him a little slack here.
In fact, if his grasp was so weak and childish in early 2017, I would argue he is either incredibly lucky not to have cooked off a nuclear war, or he is one fast learner. Fingers crossed we can muddle through.
Frankly I think this is Woodward not just pimping his new tell-all, but offering his friends more fuel for the fire of impeachment. It’s going to be a very interesting six months.
Must read: the recorded, transcribed telephone conversation between Trump (with his aides) and Bob Woodward (with his research assistant). Many of you no doubt saw this linked above the banner at Drudge.
Fucking hilarious. After an exchange of pleasantries, Woodward says that he's finishing the book and would have liked to have interviewed Trump. Trump says that nobody told him of Woodward's request. Woodward says that he asked multiple people, multiple times, multiple ways. Trump sticks to his claim that nobody mentioned it to him. Woodward says that he spoke to Lindsey Graham, and Graham later mentioned that he told Trump. Trump, then caught, agrees that Graham mentioned it, but just once briefly. Woodward then goes to Kellyanne Conway (who is in on the call), and Conway also confirms that Woodward asked her, but she couldn't make something like that happen on her own. And then Trump goes on to throw several key communications staff under the proverbial bus.
This is such a vintage Trump shitshow on just one webpage:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/04/transcript-phone-call-between-president-trump-journalist-bob-woodward/?utm_term=.9b15ba1545e8
This is how you have to question Trump; lining up irrefutable truths to combat Trump's lies. And then not backing down to the nasty old fuckhead.
I have often wondered the same thing, why do we even have troops in South Korea? The South Koreans hate us and complain constantly and they idolize Kim Jong Un. We should leave and let them work it out, not involve ourselves in others' quarrels because of some misguided worry about global Communism. (Prof. Althouse herself has commented that only old white male dweebs worry about global Communism.)
Chuck, are you gonna buy Woodward's book?
Would someone please explain why someone in the inner Trump circle would talk to Woodward at all? Let's just pick Mattis as an example. What good possibly accrues to Mattis to shoot his mouth off to Woodward? So he can get publicly canned?
Now, I can imagine how an official would keep a yuuuge CYA file of all his transactions with Trump & the other staffers, just so that if & when the shit hits the fan, he has documentation to protect himself. But, that's very different than shooting your mouth off to Bob Woodward for public consumption.
I can readily imagine that Trump is extremely difficult to work for. Like many of the Tech wanna-be oligarchs, he thrives in chaos. But when Woodward writes that Trump has “contempt for the mainstream perspectives of military and intelligence leaders,” that is scarcely a bad thing. He thinks outside the box because he doesn't recognize that a box is there, and so we get the first positive movement in the Middle East in 70 years, the first real efforts to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula in a quarter century. His instincts must be awfully good, and obviously better than the mainstream perspectives of military and intelligence leaders.
Let me be clear: I don't believe one fucking word of this. This is just more Deep State propaganda aimed at attacking and undermining Trump and his administration. Woodward is trading on his reputation (such as it is) to peddle this bullshit.
These alleged comments make them look bad for not quitting, in addition to stupidity, intemperance, and disloyalty for saying it out loud.
The assumption is that the US is preventing WWIII from breaking out in Asia. Trump challenges this assumption. He's asking for the proof behind the assumption.
Given that this is costing the US money that we don't have ($20 trillion+ in debt), and given that we don't do colonialism well, why shouldn't he challenge those assumptions?
It's amazing that a man so lacking in intellect or curiosity found the time to read the Constitution and discover the "Electoral College Loophole" that made him President while the bestest candidate ever in history was sent packing back to New York.
However, I doubt that Woodward actually has near contemporary verbatim quotes of actual government officials in actual briefings with the President. Would you commit a felony just to impress Bob Woodward? Nah. Would a lower-level person exaggerate and even fabricate to impress Bob Woodward? Much more likely.
Washington Examiner:
John Kelly defends himself from Woodward book claims, calls it 'total BS'
September 04, 2018 03:22 PM
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/john-kelly-defends-himself-from-woodward-book-claims-calls-it-total-bs
Ex-Trump lawyer John Dowd denies quotes in Bob Woodward book
September 04, 2018 01:05 PM
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/ex-trump-lawyer-john-dowd-denies-quotes-in-bob-woodward-book
brylun said...
Chuck, are you gonna buy Woodward's book?
Probably. It sounds fantastic. The August 14, 2018 recorded interview that I just mentioned pretty much sold me.
Much like Trump's defamation lawsuit against Tim O'Brien got me to read "TrumpNation."
Trump's question is a good and very basic question that should be asked about any location where we have troops deployed. Why?
If Trump was unwilling to accept the status quo- always a good starting point for a new guy -why not first explore the reason for the status quo then force people in favor to defend it. I believe that, in educational circles, this is called the Socratic method. Most graduate business and I believe law schools build their curricula around the Socratic method of teaching.
Jim Mattis,loyal Marine, would never make a snide remark like this to his superior. He might spend some time explaining the significance of troops in Korea and their tactical and strategic value. To make the comment Woodward quotes would be insubordinate and certainly less than helpful. I am not buying.
In short Woodward is full of shit.
Total wars started under Trump, to date: 0.
How's that stack up against smart competent people like, say, Obama?
Just wonderin'.
Woodward book -- Deep State meets Deep Throat!
This is how you have to question Trump; lining up irrefutable truths to combat Trump's lies.
You call it a Trump lie. I call it a polite way to beg off something he didn't want to do.
"Why didn't you come to my party on Friday?"
"Ohh, I would have loved to have come. I didn't hear about it"
As a very late and very reluctant Trump voter, I should be the target audience for these book. But they keep missing the point. I understand Trump is not baked into the government culture.
He asked a good question. Why are we still in Korea. They responded about some small unit that may be important.
First that did not answer the question. Keep that unit there and bring home the rest. Second my BS detector went off. It takes us 15 minutes to determine a missile launch. I thought we had satellites that could detect prelaunch activity but instantly detect a heat signature of a missile.
When Obama asked basic questions, he was probing and thoughtful and thinking outside of the box. A genius really, bringing a fresh from outside of Washington perspective.
'Sounds like a lot of "experts" who are used to everyone around them taking their assumptions for granted.'
This is the same Mattis who was on the board of Theranos.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.
And the Deep State mourns its loss of power.
As noted earlier, Ann must be laughing her head off at this. - Pickering
No. The sound of laughter you're hearing is us. At you.
Must read: the recorded, transcribed telephone conversation between Trump (with his aides) and Bob Woodward (with his research assistant). Many of you no doubt saw this linked above the banner at Drudge.
I find it funny that he turned it on BEFORE he got permission. If Trump had said no would Bob have turned it off? Also noted that Bob never asked for permission to record the call, just that he was turning on a tape recorder
Trump: Hello, Bob.
BW: President Trump, how are you?
Trump: How are you? How are you doing? Okay?
BW: Real well. I’m turning on my tape recorder, with your permission.
Trump: Oh, that’s okay. That’s okay. I don’t mind that at all.
Cheez, which is the 'win of the day'? The Kavanaugh hearings, or the Woodward book?
I assume that the above summary of President Trump's White House is largely true.
For a US President, he indeed is extraordinarily ignorant and reckless.
Nevertheless, we are seeing good progress in the grinding down of the seditious Resistance in our Intelligence Community. That is an excellent development.
We are basically moving in the right direction toward enforcing our immigration laws.
Trump is learning well on the job. During the next six years, he will improve and improve.
The Trump Presidency is a lot of good laughs. We are lucky to be alive during it.
MayBee said...
So can we assume the Democrats aren't expecting to be able to lay a finger on Kavanaugh today, so we need a new controversy?
Since Burge is featured today:
My theory is that the total mass x energy of outrage on Twitter remains constant, regardless of the available supply of topics
I'm so old I can remember when the US' continued presence on the Korean peninsula was the chief barrier to peace and reconciliation.
Remember all the protests? Some GI commits (or is accused of committing) some crime and there were weeks of protests--people flooding the streets--demanding that the Yankees go home. The dovish Democrats talk up the huge expense of our keeping hundreds of thousands of troops at forward bases all around the world and say "imagine how many starving kids we could feed with this money that's funding the bloodthirsty military industrial complex" and similar cliches.
But! Comes now President Trump, a man ready to rethink all alliances/deals, examine all deployments with a "is this good for America/serving American interests/fair for America to pay for" perspective and suddenly everybody, but EVERYBODY is as horrified as can be that we might actually change something.
Now it's "think of the children, think of world stability!" when we suggest that removing Kim's main source of pressure/hostages (the presence of tens of thousands of Americans literally under his guns) might actually happen. Suddenly our critical look at the shameful lack of contribution on the part of NATO members is just downright unseemly! The fact that the whole of Europe doesn't have the heavy lift capability to actually get anywhere--were they to need to--is something we were all just supposed to politely ignore and now that Trump has been so rude as to point it out we're supposed to be angry at Trump.
Fuck off! The people voted for a populist. I don't agree with him on everything and I frequently don't agree with his tactics, but he's the fucking President. Woodward and his ilk who expect me to express alarm that the guy the country elected is actually acting in the way we would expect him to act is just stupid--and that's assuming I believe both Woodward and the people he interviewed to give an accurate accounting of the situation. Which...I don't.
Trump is surrounded by Soviet and Obama-era elected and appointed officials who are out of touch with the state of the world as it is, but would rather force it to become what they believe it should be.
Woodward book -- Deep State meets Deep Throat!
Good one, Bay Area Guy!
Also what Kevin said. Would you rather have Romney now instead, lefties?
Only Nixon could go to China, so it makes sense that only Trump could surrender the Korean peninsula. Trump is constantly accusing former administrations of selling out our national interests. That's politics 101, accuse your opponents of the thing you're doing. Will it work? Surrender is a very effective strategy for avoiding war, but has its own downsides.
There's not much of a downside to criticizing Trump. It would be career suicide to voice any objections to the planning and execution of Aretha Franklin's funeral, however.
MayBee said...
"This is how you have to question Trump; lining up irrefutable truths to combat Trump's lies."
You call it a Trump lie. I call it a polite way to beg off something he didn't want to do.
"Why didn't you come to my party on Friday?"
"Ohh, I would have loved to have come. I didn't hear about it"
Oh I forgot one of the most important elements of Trump questioning. Do it on the record. With video, preferably, but certainly with an audio recording. So that Trump can't get away with saying that Bob Woodward is lying about even having asked Trump for an interview.
It's so often the nature of any conversation with Trump. He's such an experienced, shameless liar, that unless you've got him on tape his lies just get absorbed into the ocean of his other lies and forgotten.
I don’t understand the reflex to label this reporting false. Isn’t half of Trump’s charm that he doesn’t think like a normal Washington person?
Correction: Trump is surrounded by Soviet and Obama-era elected, appointed, anonymous, and imagined officials who drive the news cycle for political, social, and economic progress.
(eaglebeak)
1. Don't know what Trump knew before he entered White House, but I would definitely go with the one-fast-learner theory.
Just finished reading Gwenda Blair's book about him (one of several books by her)--she is NOT a fan, but she documents repeatedly that he is, as one guy who negotiated with him said, "sharp, sharp, sharp."
2. Bob Woodward, truth-teller? Here's an amusing list from Politico of all places: https://www.politico.com/story/2012/04/6-bob-woodward-controversies-075738
Yeah, the 15 minute number got me too. I'm no rocket scientist but in 15 minutes an icbm
would be over halfway to Alaska?
and so we get the first positive movement in the Middle East in 70 years, the first real efforts to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula in a quarter century.
Huh, where is the "positive movement" in the Middle East? I must have missed it. Yes, ISIS was cleared out of most of its territory, but we are further from a solution of the Palestinian problem than ever. There are civil wars in Syria and Yemen, and we are complicit in war crimes in Yemen. The position on Iran seems to be lets see what happens if the government collapses (you may think a third civil war in the Middle East is a good idea, I don't). And Iraq is still a mess where one of the militia leaders we were fighting ten years ago is now president.
As for North Korea, other than a meaningless document and some meaningless dismantlement of a couple of facilities (and the test site was probably unsafe any way), what progress have we made? The answer is none.
Sound like distraction from the senate confirmation.
Dems/msm are very good about staying in message.
It would be nice if Althouse did a poll on the strangest disruption at the confirmation hearing.
My vote is for the guy who dressed as a giant male part. Handmaid cosplay was good visually. Dem senator interruptions was just annoying.
Nominees kids were escorted out by the mom.
And a reflex to assume it's true based on near-term and persistent precedents where they are not?
The reason we have troops in South Korea is so that the North Koreans will believe that if they attack South Korea, the US will respond with military force. The actual troops in Korea will suffer horrendous casualties, which will force the US to retaliate. Without actual troops in South Korea that the North Koreans will have to kill if they invade the North Korean leadership might start thinking that they could invade and the US would decide that military intervention would not be worth it. Kind of like what happened to South Vietnam in 75. We also want to counter China's influence in the region. And as a maritime power that is heavily dependent on trade, we want to keep the sea lanes open
Which is a much better explanation than "preventing WW III" which is why I don't think Mattis said that. If he did then our "elite" is worse than I thought.
Now, if we still need to be there is another matter entirely. South Korea is one of the most prosperous nations in the world, not the poor ass country it was from just after the armistice to around the end of the 70s. It should be able to pay for its own defense and still has conscription.
I've always wondered about the "conversations" that Woodward includes in his books, it's not like he was there or had recordings, and even if he was there is no guarantee that anyone else would have heard the same thing. I think they are best classed as dramatic recreations as imagined by the author.
I have no idea what the reality of Trump is, no president in my lifetime has been accurately presented by the press. So I just watch what Trump does, and so far I am happy.
I cannot stand Trump. Never could. But I love what he's doing. Apparently, if I understand everyone who writes about him, it's by mistake. But nonetheless, I like what he's doing by mistake much better than what Obama did on purpose with his high IQ intact and the media standing in line to suck his thumb. Obama fucked us, smiled about it, and looked great at International Cocktail Events (and really- that's what the press coos about). Trump- I honestly don't know what his overall goal is, or what he thinks, but he seems to be ticking off his campaign promises. I think a lot of folks appreciate that.
Like everyone on earth, I wish he'd drop Twitter, and shut up. But I like much of what he's done. Most of all, I love how he's exposed everyone on both sides for who they are, and left a lot of exploded heads in his wake.
I don't know if I'll have the energy to live through another 4 years of him, but I'm reserving judgement to see who else the Repubs can put forward. The Dems have lost me for the rest of my life, so that's not even an option. And I spent 16 years wasting my vote on Libertarian candidates, so that feel-good moment is over as well.
I just hope it does not come down to Kamala Harris and Trump. I'm leaving for Iceland if it does.
Why do we need to detect Nk's missile launch in 7 seconds? Kim know we'll smash him if he did launch an attack missile.
Why would Kelly agree to continue serving an idiot?
Mattis is the baddest bad cop in the administration in threatening retaliation against NK and China.
How much of the revelations were made up, how much were real?
His contempt for the mainstream perspectives of military and intelligence leaders, maybe, because their perspectives stink. He wants to think and do outside their black box of tricks that make the US weak, that let China build man-made islands/military bases and claim territorial waters in the South Sea, that let Purin claimthe Crimea and Assad use chemical weapons.
Kevin said...
"You know who was knowledgeable and competent? Romney. But then there were hitler binders full of hitler women and hitler dogs on hitler roofs because hitler hitler hitler hitlery hitler. So, you got hitler Trump instead. And you deserve him, you stupid f***s."
BWAAAAAAAAAA-AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You know what my favorite Romney moment is? When Romney, the follower of Joseph Smith - a con artist arrested multiple times for deceiving people - called Trump a con artist, and no one (in or out of the oh so honest Mormon "church") called Romney a hypocrite.
The White Horse gets to ride away in the sunset, whether he wins or fucks the whole thing up.
Oh, I forgot one other reason we have troops in South Korea. People are making money off of it.
@Ron W.
Now, if we still need to be there is another matter entirely. South Korea is one of the most prosperous nations in the world, not the poor ass country it was from just after the armistice to around the end of the 70s. It should be able to pay for its own defense and still has conscription.
At one time I counted among my extended in-laws a general who was basically the number #3 man in the Marine Corps at his retirement. He told me the same thing you just said. He thought that the South Koreans were perfectly capable of defending themselves & that it was probably a good idea for the US to disengage from the peninsula.
He also didn't categorize this belief as something daring & controversial among his crew in the upper echelons of the Marine Corps. It certainly wasn't standing US policy, but it also wasn't an idea that needed to be discussed in a whisper, either.
Hey Crack: You are a bigot, you know that? I just have to pull up your anti-Mormon bigotry, and it clearly demonstrates that whatever the faults of whitey in your eyes. you are far worse than any of them. You are Ritmo, you must be. Only liberals who claim to be tolerant like you do are so bitterly bigoted and hateful.
Of course, given your accusations of Joseph Smith being a "con man" I can see why you dislike him.... if he was a conman, he was far more successful than you will ever be in conning people. You must envy him.
By the way.... he was arrested, but never were any charges proven against him, because they were all false. You know who else was arrested? Rosa Parks. Guess that's proof positive she was evil, right?
@MIke Sylvester I am surprised that you think Trump is "ignorant and reckless". Aren't you always advising us to look at his record. If you do that you will find there is very little there that has either quality. Yes he is very good at the magicians trick of distraction, but if you dig in a little you find there is usually a logic and, oddly enough, a legal or Constitutional basis for what he is doing. Much more so than BO ever considered. Trump is aggressive. A quality that we have not seen in a President for a long while, and it makes many people uncomfortable. It's a great quality in a leader. Trump does, like the since discredited N. B. Forrest said when asked how to win an engagement, "Get there firstest with the mostest".
What most politicians seem to want is a McCLellan: all show and no go.
I guess that the Democrats in Congress have recently gotten a call from the 80's, asking for their foreign policy back.
Mike Sylwester said...
"The Trump Presidency is a lot of good laughs. We are lucky to be alive during it."
Yep, I agree - so far. As Milton Friedman said, the wrong man was needed, to do the right things. The wild card is the reaction to him, which is what's really "unhinged" and unpredictable.
As long as they stay within manageable parameters, we got a shot at greatness, it looks like.
The excerpts from the Woodward book sound a lot like the reporting that came out in the first few months the administration. Everyone's hair is on fire and everyone thinks Trump is crazy or an idiot. I remember the reports were how bored he was, just watching TV all the time and would probably resign shortly. Maybe Woodward did some copy & paste.
"Let me be clear: I don't believe one fucking word of this."
I read a few Woodward books, such as The Brethren. His "fly on the wall" narrative style is intended to give an air of verisimilitude, but he is a proven fabricator.
Woodward has a has a longstanding reputation for making shit up. A good example is William Casey's deathbed statements. The only problem is that his imagined conversation has never been corroborated by anyone who was at the former CIA Director's deathbed.
I am sure our LLR Chuckles is having an orgasm over the book. It is bait for the TDS crowd.
"Deep background," is what we call anonymous sources now.
That dialogue at then end sounds like Woodward sees the characters as 14 year old girls. Either paraphrase or really bad dialogue writing, the sort of thing that shows up in fan faction. Antifanfic, I suppose.
"Deep background," is what we call anonymous sources now.
A legacy of Water Closet.
Better than Trump is a high standard.
Woodward wants another scalp on his belt.
Odd timing. Woodward is stepping all over the Resistance to Kavanaugh.
I'm sure Trump knows little. But --
"Trump questioned why the government was spending resources in the region at all."
Fair question. Has anyone seen Farmer and Trump in the same room?
"Preventing WWIII" doesn't cut it. It is also false--fake foreign policy, to coin a phrase: we are there at least in part to help our allies, counter China, maintain influence in an important region, and prevent any mess that will cost us more.
But you can then ask: why are we spending the money we are to do that? Particularly since our allies are now very rich. And because protecting Taiwan is of no obvious benefit to the U.S., besides the damn principle of it.
Seems like an obvious question the new CEO would and should ask.
I'd prefer knowledge and sophistication etc. etc. But since there's none of it among Dem politicians, as far as I can tell (maybe Bill), and Reset Hill was sophisticated only in building up her corrupt foundation and avoiding prison, I don't worry much about Trump's deficiencies. Nor do I see a clear alternative on the right: Cruz is first-rate but lost, Romney is first-rate but lost, and GOP first-raters get trashed just the same.
Crimso:
And wasn't Mattis joined by Henry Kissenger and other elites on the board of Theranos? Theranos was a total fraud. One guy at the WSJ figured it out. That's what journalists are supposed to do.
I would have expected a rich, powerful man with such tendencies to have done much more and obvious damage to things.
@ Mike Sylvester I am unwilling to be convinced that Trump is ignorant, unconventional but not ignorant. That he might be reckless is a positive attribute as that guy Machiavelli said: "it is better to be feared than loved". R. E. Lee was often thought to be reckless ( and sometimes was though it paid off, mostly) and for that he was feared.
Vance said...
"I just have to pull up your anti-Mormon bigotry, and it clearly demonstrates that whatever the faults of whitey in your eyes. you are far worse than any of them."
Really? Including the two old Mormons I worked for who didn't know slavery was over? Is that a nice thing for a cult to do to people? Keep them so ignorant, in the new millennium, they're unaware of what's occurred centuries ago? See, I think you only assume this smug, huffy pose because most people haven't been to Utah and seen all the highly-edited movies, and drink the watered-down beer, and listened to their crazy-assed cockamamy idea of reality, or seen how they hound people to join their cult, in order to judge which is worse: me or people who tolerate child molesters and lie with a smile.
I think it's the child molesters, but I'm a bigot about those kinds of things.
"You are Ritmo, you must be."
See? It's another crazy one and it's the defense of bizarre beliefs that give them away every time.
"Only liberals who claim to be tolerant like you do are so bitterly bigoted and hateful."
That's why I'm not a liberal - they're evil - like Mormons.
"Of course, given your accusations of Joseph Smith being a "con man" I can see why you dislike him.... if he was a conman, he was far more successful than you will ever be in conning people. You must envy him."
Wikipedia: "Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, was "subjected to approximately thirty criminal actions" during his life. Another source reports Smith was arrested at least 42 times. Smith was killed by a mob while in jail awaiting trial on charges of treason against Illinois."
Our Hero.
"By the way.... he was arrested, but never were any charges proven against him, because they were all false."
Wikipedia: "In Ohio, he was arrested multiple times...On January 12, 1838, a warrant was issued for Smith's arrest on a charge of banking fraud...Smith fled the jurisdiction,....After his loss in the 1838 Mormon War, Smith was charged with treason against Missouri. Smith was allowed to escape custody and fled the jurisdiction, escaping into Illinois."
It keeps going like this. All proof Smith was a man of the highest honor. Like that time he said he could read Egyptian?
Wikipedia: "The Book of Abraham is an 1835 work produced by the Latter Day Saints (LDS) movement founder Joseph Smith that he said was based on Egyptian papyri purchased from a traveling mummy exhibition. According to Smith, the book was "a translation of some ancient records ... purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt"....Non-LDS Egyptologists,...have heavily criticized Joseph Smith's explanations of the facsimiles, with many stating that his interpretations are entirely inaccurate...The controversy intensified in the late 1960s when...translations of the papyri revealed the rediscovered portions bore no relation to the Book of Abraham text..."
A classic con man. Can anyone else see what are country's problem is, by the example of Vance's lame arguments? He is - literally - arguing with reality while thinking he's attacking me.
"You know who else was arrested? Rosa Parks."
For con artistry? WHow many children did she take to bed as her husbands? Oh, you Mormons really know how to pick them. And how to smear the name of great people by comparing them to piece of dogshit con artists out you.
"Guess that's proof positive she was evil, right?"
No, but I think you just proved how it works through you.
I wonder if Bob got any deathbed confessions for this book like he did with William Casey (just ignore the fact that he NEVER got a chance to interview Casey on his deathbed.)
Yeah that Bob Woodward: such a truth teller.
Trump continues winning. The left, the media, the NeverTrump right can’t lay a glove on him. In fact, when they try they end up k-o’ed. The whole MeToo thing was aimed at Trump. Look who it snagged.
The 20th dies hard. (Even Obama understood that, though not quite like he thought he did.). The Cold War Warriors are the Japanese soldiers lost on Gilligan’s Island, fighting for the Emperor to the end.
Trump alone gets it. Well, Scott Adams, too. And me. And 63,000,000 Deplorables.
Bob's KNOWN to be knowledgeable, and, like, TOTALLY honest.
Chuck says it sounds fantastic. I think that might be the problem Chuck. The last thing I ever want to read is the fantastic masquerading as the true
Is the book reliable is the question.
rhhardin said -- "It seems like Trump has done better at preventing WWIII than these guys, so far."
A great slogan for 2020: 'Trump hasn't started WWIII ... so far'
Even if you believe it, "preventing WWIII" is vague. Just exactly how does having troops in the region prevent WWIII? Is there some other strategy that costs less and does not risk American lives that could prevent WWIII? What is the likelihood of WWIII if we reduce our presence in the region and push our allies, Japan and South Korea, to step up? Are we really preventing WWIII or maintaining a presence because we don't want our allies, especially Japan, to develop too strong of a military capability?
The way Woodward presents it, the old Washington hands do stuff the way they do because that's the way it has always been done (since the end of WWII) and must, therefore, always be done in that way. The fact that the Cold War has been over for decades, that Japan and South Korea, and Taiwan are now prosperous and strong, and the world's political and economic landscape has changed in numerous, fundamental ways is no reason to question the prevailing wisdom. Asking questions about why we are doing something and proposing alternatives is just crazy talk. Crazy. Talk.
I ask again - if official documents awaiting the President’s signature are removed from his desk without his knowledge or permission, was that a violation of federal law? I really don’t know myself, but I would think so.
More palace intrigue bullshit from a notable anti-Trumper. That has already been debunked, by the way. Toddlers love candy and NeverTrumpers love their anti-Trump babble.
Below is a quote about the book from the article:
Woodward writes that his book is drawn from hundreds of hours of interviews with firsthand participants and witnesses that were conducted on “deep background,” meaning the information could be used but he would not reveal who provided it.
Readers, do you wonder as I do why these palace intrigue revelations are always concocted from mysterious unnamed sources?
So just to be clear, its okay to sent billions of dollars in cash to the government of Iran, but asking questions about why we need to have troops stationed in South Korea and Japan is crazy talk. Crazy. Talk.
Ron Winkleheimer:
It depends on who's doing it. I trust that clears things up.
A little Preparation H is just the thing for your "deep background".
That's politics 101, accuse your opponents of the thing you're doing.
Democrats accuse Trump of turning America into Nazi Germany.
Given the "hundreds of hours of interviews" with unnamed sources, given while history is still being made and can affect the future of said administration, no wonder Trump feels besieged.
Oh, wait, he let Woodward tape him. He doesn't give a fuck. He focuses on his policies and making history. Let the little people snipe.
That's it? President Trump lied to Bob Woodward?
That's it?
It has to be work to be so stupid as to think this is relevant.
Woodward? Woodward? Name's familiar . . . . Wasn't he the guy who won some journalism award because a disgruntled FBI (?) official leaked some stuff to him to get back at the President for not promoting the disgruntled official? So we should pay attention to him and buy his book because he's good at receiving leaks from disgruntled government employees? Have I got that right?
@ Temujin (3:28 PM): I think you've nailed it, except that it wasn't Obama's thumb they were sucking.
Hey, Bob! What can I get you? Your usual bag of dicks?
Bob Woodward wrote book about the fact that there really were WMD's in Iraq. Lot's of that book was sourced in the NYT. But yet today the Bush haters all agree that WMD's were a lie.
Who to believe? NYT and Woodward, or Leftist DEMs that screamed about how corrupt the intelligence community is. (that was when the DEMs said the intelligence community was the model of perfection)
So, as the economy gets better, as unemployment drops, as taxes decrease, as oil exports rise, as we meet the Paris climate goals - the only one to do so -, as North Korea negotiates, as Mexico gives us a better deal, as conservative judges are appointed - so, all this is happening while the White House is having a nervous breakdown. Unusual. Most people have trouble getting out of bed during a nervous breakdown. They have symptoms like screaming at the sky, not like nominating Neil Gorsuch and Judge Kavanaugh. I wonder if Woodward touches on the reasons why this President is doing so well despite the "nervous breakdown" that Woodward discerns? Personally, I am not tired of all the winning but I think Woodward is.
There will be a library written about the moment of Trump.
A great number of these books, this one for instance, will serve as material to other writers, examining the reaction to Trump.
I hope a good biographer shows up sooner than later.
Johnsons moment had to wait for Robert Caro, 20-50 years afterwards.
Why should I trust a book that has nothing but un-named sources? The answer, of course, is I should not. If people will not go on the record for the book, then the book is just school girl bullshit and should be treated as such.
...63,000,000 Deplorables...
There aren't 63,000,000 Deplorables. There never were 63,000,000 Deplorables.
There were slightly less than 63,000,000 people who voted for Trump. Among them were many people like me; Republicans who loathed Trump personally and who saw some validity in what Hillary said about "a basket of deplorables." We did not vote for Trump because we identified as "Deplorables" with a capital D. We did not support anything about Trump, in any primaries. Trump won the nomination in a crowded field where he won a mere plurality of Republican support. Trump won the nomination despite people like me. Trump was the least-worst option. And the vehicle for a more conservative federal judiciary. Nothing more.
The almost-63,000,000 number included my vote. I'm not a Deplorable.
Sure you are - Hillary said so, and she is gawd, and actually, really 'The President'..
I really wouldn't want to anger him, would you:
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1037094115027181569
One day there will be named sources, as well as context, as well as memoirs of the participants, all, no doubt, carefully adjusted to suit their various personal needs.
There may even, given the times, be flies on the wall, recordings.
It will still probably be difficult to understand what is going on, and the reasons why.
Well, I have “contempt for [many of]the mainstream perspectives of military and intelligence leaders” and I work in and with the defense industry. But who am I to talk, I'm a nobody. And maybe that's why.
The almost-63,000,000 number included my vote. I'm not a Deplorable.
So you're hoping they'll eat you last? If you voted for Trump you're a Deplorable. Just ask any Democrat.
the last time bob woodward got something right, re the sequester which was Obama's choice, they called him senile,
Yes, pissing of General Mattis is not a smart thing to do.
Bill, Republic of Texas said: First that did not answer the question. Keep that unit there and bring home the rest. Second my BS detector went off. It takes us 15 minutes to determine a missile launch. I thought we had satellites that could detect prelaunch activity but instantly detect a heat signature of a missile.
Exactly. Well said.
I've always thought Woodward is more or less a pathological liar.
Meh.
-sw
Blogger Mark Jones said...
Let me be clear: I don't believe one fucking word of this. This is just more Deep State propaganda aimed at attacking and undermining Trump and his administration. Woodward is trading on his reputation (such as it is) to peddle this bullshit.
This is the type of response expected from a cultist when the dear cult leader is criticized.
yes, he could probably kill with a paperclip
https://www.weeklystandard.com/andrew-ferguson/bob-woodwards-washington
it's sad he's gone full susskind
@Chuck: "I'm not a Deplorable."
If it makes you feel better. I'll leave Dick Durbin and Ben Carson aside to make a serious point, to you and all the Never-Trumpers:
It doesn't matter what you think you are. Understanding that is the beginning of political wisdom in these times.
Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you picked policy over personal pique once, and I hope you will do it again. I realize, of course, that the deplorable pushback you receive here only arouses your pique, and I am sure that in real life your high self regard is well earned. But I invite you to think deeply about the larger forces, out there, that would like you to go completely batshit crazy about Trump.
some food for thought:
https://www.newsweek.com/myth-bob-woodward-why-man-american-icon-62801
interesting one of the jurors in the plame case, was a post editor with woodward,
but we can't let the real news, get in the way of the fake news:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/anatomy-of-a-fusion-smear-1535757026
I guess it is good for Democrats that things are so disorganized. Otherwise the Korean War might already by over, ACA might be gone not just fatally wounded, the tax cuts might be more than just crumbs, the Space Force might have already established a permanent base on the Moon. Who knows how bad it could get?
The self-regard in which Chuck, fopdoodle extraordinaire, holds himself can never be justified.
Trump is reckless because he questions the status quo? Good! That’s part of the reason I voted for him. I was worried he would not govern conservatively. The bizarre reaction of LLRs and Leftists has stiffened Trump’s spine. Thanks, you feckless bunch of shits.
"This is the type of response expected from a cultist when the dear cult leader is criticized."
There are many cults (heck, ask Crack).
How does 14:53 seconds extra knowledge prevent WWIII? That time would be wasted by Democrat procedural objections anyway.
And we don't need a military presence on the Korean Peninsula to detect a launch quickly. That's the purpose of SBIRS. No wonder why Trump wants to create the Space Force; these guys don't even know what assets they have.
The status quo is not the status quo.
There hasn't been a status quo in many years, not something most of you remember. Memory is a liar, it tells you a story about the present that belongs in the past. It is instrument data from last week, before the instrument stopped working.
The palace of the system has been eaten away by all sorts of vermin. It is structurally unsound and the plumbing and wiring have all failed. It is held together by the veneer and many layers of paint. Its pillars won't stand a storm. If it doesn't collapse it may just catch fire and burn away.
But it is still visible on the horizon. It does not appear, from a certain distance, to be the rubble it actually is.
I'm not surprised or distressed that there are some people in Trump's orbit who want to criticize him. What's disturbing are the number of people who do not leak damaging stories about Hillary and Obama. I'm pretty sure those two have had their moments, but rarely does anyone voice any specific complaints about their dear leader.......I draw your attention to Mary Jo Kopechne. None of her family, none of her friends had anything negative to say about Ted Kennedy. What's up with that? Free speech is not something Democrats encourage when it comes to assessing the flaws of their leaders.
(eaglebeak)
On the subject of Bob Woodward's veracity, insight, general chops as a journalist:
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/tanner-colby-deconstructing-bob-woodward
Woodward has a history of being played by his sources---iirc, Colin Powell did quite a number on him in his book about the first few years of the GWBush presidency.
Which isn't to say it isn't true, but at best you're only getting half the story... at best. That's the way it is with leaks. Nobody leaks to put out the whole story--they always have a personal agenda to make themselves look good or someone else look bad (or both). Always--it's why they leak.
"What's up with that? "
Generous payments, plus credible threats.
Most of the people who work for Democratic administrations and stay loyal go on to riches, or sufficient riches anyway. If they tattle they are ruined, if not worse.
Joseph Smith left behind two full books of revelatory writings which are nothing short of amazing. Have you read them, or even a portion of them Crack?
No?
Then I suppose you probably don’t have any good idea other than your internal musings and other unsupported assertions, as to why Joseph Smith continues to have an influence on the United States and the world.
You should read the Book of Mormon. It is some of the most profound writings of the American era, relevant exactly to today, and often deeply moving.
Kevin said...”You know who was knowledgeable and competent? Romney. But then there were hitler binders full of hitler women and hitler dogs on hitler roofs because hitler hitler hitler hitlery hitler. So, you got hitler Trump instead. And you deserve him, you stupid f***s”
You’re forgetting about the “most qualified person ever to run for the Presidency.”
What are you, a misogynist?
Chuck said, “The almost-63,000,000 number included my vote. I'm not a Deplorable.”
To be fair, Hillary said half of Trump’s supporters were Deplorables. Know what the other half were? Losers.
So, if you’re not a Deplorabel, Chuck, you’re a loser. Me, I’m a Deplorable. I’ll let you decide what you are.
@Chicklit, the most qualified person ever to run for the Presidency was George Washington. They wrote the job description around him.
Have you listened to the tape of the Woodward-Trump (and Conway) phone call from last month? Trump says he never heard Woodward wanted to interview him for the book. Woodward responds that he asked like 6 people and one, Graham, told him he had discussed his request with Trump. Trump admits that was true. But continues to ask why Woodward didn't call one of his secretaries. Woodward says, I spoke about the request with Raj (Shah, deputy press secretary). Trump says he doesn't talk to Raj. Woodward says he discussed it over lunch with Conway. Conway says she passed the request up the chain. Woodward: Doesn't Conway have direct access to Trump?
Just crazy.
I wonder how many other tapes will be released in response to all the denials and insults from the White House.
And of course we're waiting for hours of Omarosa tapes to be released.
"You should read the Book of Mormon."
I have.
"It is some of the most profound writings of the American era"
I have a rather different opinion. Its worth a read, especially if one is very familiar with the KJV.
Surely, readering, that must be a high crime or at least an impeachable misdemeanor. Right?
I did not like Obama’s term as president because his policy results were negative.
I like Trump’s term as president, so far, because his policy results are positive. (Subject to change.)
Why can LLRs and Leftist Collectivists not understand that?
I take it on faith that you cannot all be stupid.
Mattis calls Woodward's reporting on him 'fiction':
"The contemptuous words about the President attributed to me in Woodward's book were never uttered by me or in my presence,” Mattis said in a statement. “While I generally enjoy reading fiction, this is a uniquely Washington brand of literature, and his anonymous sources do not lend credibility.”
Who you calling an LLR or Leftist Collectivist?
Buwaya: Try reading it with a knowledge of Jewish poetical structures, and you'll find out that it most certainly is not a crude pastiche of the KJV, as you are heavily implying. As for Crack: with a man of his demonstrable qualities, it's a relief to be on the other side of his opinions. It's practically an endorsement for Joseph Smith and the Mormon church.
Setting aside your laughable Egyptian thing, has it occurred to you that you are consciously copying Pilate and Herod and Caiaphias? Oh, I forgot: you are an Atheist, and as such likely don't have a clue who they are.
Even if you did, you are aware that there are more Mormons that Jews in the world, right? Likely you'd call the Jews all cultists following a con man Moses though, so I guess we Mormons are in good company there. And as far as whether you and Ritmo are the same: maybe you aren't, but you share an insane level of hatred for people on the right, so what's the difference between the two of you?
readering,
You are a Leftist Collectivist.
Chuck, fopdoodle extraordinaire, is an LLR.
Clear?
If I remember correctly, Crack has shared in the past that he was working with some kids in Utah on a musical project. The parents didn't pay him (was there a contract?), and he resents this.
I asked him to name the offending parties, and he refused to (in part to protect the kids he worked with).
Perhaps, rather than hating Mormons, he should direct his ire towards the people who directly harmed him. After all, that's what we're encouraged to do with any minority who may harm us.
Khesan 0802 at 3:34 PM
I am surprised that you think Trump is "ignorant and reckless".
My sentence began with the words For a US President ...
As I wrote elsewhere today, the typical comment on this board is "leftist" or "member of the Democrat (sic) party".
Limited imaginations.
Khesan 0802 at 4:00 PM
I am unwilling to be convinced that Trump is ignorant, unconventional but not ignorant.
I am comparing Trump to previous US Presidents early in their first terms, and I am referring to governing as a President.
Trump is not ignorant and reckless in business.
As a President, compared to other new Presidents, he is rather ignorant and reckless.
However, I think he is learning and improving.
I support him now, and I expect that I will vote for him again in 2020.
readering,
So you deny it is an accurate description? Name one view you hold that is outside the Leftist norm.
Straight out of the Reagan playbook.
contempt for the mainstream perspectives of military and intelligence leaders.
Define “mainstream.”
I wanted to interview you.
Not interested.
Woodward doe#nt get special privilege. No ones obligated to sit for an interview.
I learned it from watching television. Barack Obama
Were these military and intelligence officials the holdovers from Obama’s Administration?
Like Bruce Ohr, the Russian expert?
Or generals Obama promoted because they tie the line?
Were they intelligence analysts like Peter Strzok at the FBI?
Deference by the Chief Executive to the hired help is an odd thing to assert is necessary.
Pretending that any of this is true,
the following:
including a special intelligence operation that allows the United States to detect a North Korean missile launch in seven seconds vs. 15 minutes from Alaska, according to Woodward.
Seems like info that should not have been released.
"And wasn't Mattis joined by Henry Kissenger and other elites on the board of Theranos?"
A number of them, including some guy named Boies, who was more...ummmmm...active as a board member. There wasn't just shady stuff going on at Theranos, there was shady stuff going on around it.
If memory serves, judge chutkin, was also from boies firm, and was in contact with fusion gps.
Mattis has denied saying the things Woodward attributed to him. More or less categorically.
As a lifelong conservative do you think I should trust Woodward, or Mattis?
Tough one.
Boies talk about a LIAR.
Sebastian: "Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you picked policy over personal pique once, and I hope you will do it again."
There is no actual evidence that occurred.
Just sayin....
The Praetorian Guard are like, "This is so stressful. Why do we have to do all the work?"
HoodlumDoodlum said...
Mattis has denied saying the things Woodward attributed to him. More or less categorically.
As a lifelong conservative do you think I should trust Woodward, or Mattis?
Tough one.
Yes; that is a very tough question. I am an admirer of Mattis. And a mere observer of Woodward.
But before the last year, I was also a huge admirer of Senator Tom Cotton. I pictured Cotton as President of the United States someday. Cotton's military and public service record is brilliant and honorable.
But -- and I could never before have pictured myself saying this -- I think Tom Cotton lied about the meeting he attended in the White House where President Trump asked about America's accepting of immigrants from "shithole countries." It is hard for me to understand why Cotton would do that, but yes I think an otherwise honorable man lied, when it came to the President of the United States.
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