I don't want to get sidetracked by the 2 categories where women have received more penalties, other than to note that both of them seem to involve interacting with other people — a coach or the press — and to see and pass up the opportunity to say women are more oriented to relationships. (I'm just assuming the "no press" violation is about interacting with the press.)
Ah, but you see I'm assuming that the 2 violations that women have gotten called on more are the things that women do more, not things the officials are more critical of women for doing. We could make the same assumption about all the things that men have been penalized for more than women: Men do these things more — audible and visual obscenity, verbal abuse, etc.
Look at the prison population. It's less than 10% women. Does that mean men are held to a high standard of behavior? I think we're comfortable with the extreme gender disproportion because we feel awfully sure that men commit many more crimes, especially the kind of crimes that deserve a substantial prison sentence. We like thinking that the prisons are confining individuals who pose a danger to the rest of us, and we think of those people as overwhelmingly male. Maybe we're wrong, but you can see we're pretty resistant to the idea that there's a "double standard" that's unfair to men.
In that light, look at what Serena Williams said:
“There are men out here who do a lot worse than me, but because I’m a woman you are going to take this away from me?” she protested to Brian Earley, the tournament referee. “That is not right.”Yes, the statistics show that men are penalized much more than women, but it might nevertheless be that men also get away with more and women are penalized for less. What I'd like to see are qualitative comparisons. Show me the worst things male players have done and escaped a penalty. Is there a higher level of abuse and misbehavior that is a baseline among the males that would in the woman's setting be seen as going too far? Is there a norm of better behavior among the women that changes the standard and causes as penalty to be called at less bad behavior?
The NYT article doesn't talk about that, but it does discuss another reason to discount the higher numbers in the "men" column on that chart: The men play longer games. There are 5 sets in men's tennis and 3 sets in women's. Now, there's a double standard.
ADDED: If and when they make a movie about Serena Williams, I wonder what are the chances she'll get the "I, Tonya" treatment and we'll be encouraged to laugh at her histrionics. Extremely low, I think.
Posts
93 comments:
She’s won a great number of tournaments and is rich. She got soundly beat. Stop playing the woman card; especially against a woman who had a better game that day.
Why isn’t the headline: Whining Black Woman Attacks Asian Woman?
If Williams did what she was penalized for, it doesn't matter whether other people got away with it or not as far as her punishment went. Either press hard for other people to get punished, too, or work to change the rules. She needs to stop whining about being treated unfairly. Her own punishment was fair and met the rules of the game. Lots of murderers escape being caught and punished. It doesn't mean we let everyone else off the hook out of "fairness".
Women should be playing more sets than men based on biology. On the average men are stronger than women, but we have more stamina and better endurance. And none of that half-court basketball nonsense.
If someone actually watches more than, say, a dozen tennis matches a year, would you please identify yourself when commenting? I listen to a lot of sports talk. I'm interested in this topic. I only watch a few matches a year - usually slam finals - so I don't have any basis for an opinion. I'm not interested in people with less information than I have giving their (very strong) opinions on this.
Ball Abuse?
Rene Richards, call your office!
-XC
"Why isn’t the headline: Whining Black Woman Attacks Asian Woman?"
More accurately, Whining Black Woman Loses to Asian Woman, Attacks White Man. I'm sure you can see how, when cast in those terms, it is a perfectly reasonable occurrence here in the Age of Womens' Feelz.
When I coached baseball (one girl on the team) I told the kids to NEVER complain about the ump’s calls.
All this straining to excuse Serena Williams' poor sportsmenship. Martina Navratilova said all that needs to be said. If Serena doesn't want to get penalized for bad behavior, she can simply behave better.
There's no comparison line for whining.
We may all be comfortable in saying that the lows of human behaviour are lower and more consistent with men than with women. In the light of some recent news stories, are we comfortable in saying the highs might be (typically) higher?
They should separate by race and gender both. Race may be a confounding factor.
For a white woman to tell a black woman to behave better is to the point but may miss some heritable traits.
This may be the tiniest kerfuffle ever.
Serena Williams is not a victim. She is the formerly best tennis player in the world starting to lose it forever, and she is going out kicking and screaming. Why so many people think she deserves to be propped at the top of the tennis world past her time, I have no idea.
Wait a week or two. You will be given yet another reason to feel sorry for Serena Williams.
Why is anyone even discussing this? Why did anyone even take Serena's complaint seriously rather than as the sore loser rant that it obviously was.
“Because I’m a woman you’re going to take this away from me?”
That’s awfully whiny and unbecoming for a legendary player like her. Can anyone even imagine Roger Federer or Nadal or Djokovic saying anything that whiny? I sure can’t.
A winner would never, ever say anything that avoids accountability to yourself for being in whatever situation you find yourself, instead of offloading it onto some vague bullshit excuse like that. You own it, shut up and move on.
A winner would never phrase anything in a way that implies you could be a victim and focusing so strongly and complaining so much about something you can’t control being done TO you in a competitive situation, and causing your failure. Try that shit in your next sales meeting, see what happens.
This single comment of hers is very illuminating.
It DOES NOT MATTER what the data is. People overcome the odds all the time, with the right attitude. That’s just how the world works, and our culture should reinforce it, not undermine it.
Why do we look at this as unfair to the “offender” and not from the view of the other player? Why should well-behaved men have to put up with more bullshit than well-behaved women? It bothers me that a jackass player is allowed to interrupt the match while the other player waits patiently with his sweat drying and his muscles stiffening up.
Take a look at this Instapundit post on Greater Male Variability Hypothesis (GMVH).
The post is about the suppression of theoretical mathematics paper on GMVH. While men are more likely to be idiots or geniuses, the episode does suggest that women -- at least in activist academia -- trend toward the totalitarian.
In the highly controversial area of human intelligence, the ‘Greater Male Variability Hypothesis’ (GMVH) asserts that there are more idiots and more geniuses among men than among women. Darwin’s research on evolution in the nineteenth century found that, although there are many exceptions for specific traits and species, there is generally more variability in males than in females of the same species throughout the animal kingdom.
Evidence for this hypothesis is fairly robust and has been reported in species ranging from adders and sockeye salmon to wasps and orangutans, as well as humans. Multiple studies have found that boys and men are over-represented at both the high and low ends of the distributions in categories ranging from birth weight and brain structures and 60-meter dash times to reading and mathematics test scores. There are significantly more men than women, for example, among Nobel laureates, music composers, and chess champions—and also among homeless people, suicide victims, and federal prison inmates.
Darwin had also raised the question of why males in many species might have evolved to be more variable than females, and when I learned that the answer to his question remained elusive, I set out to look for a scientific explanation. My aim was not to prove or disprove that the hypothesis applies to human intelligence or to any other specific traits or species, but simply to discover a logical reason that could help explain how gender differences in variability might naturally arise in the same species.
"the lows of human behaviour are lower and more consistent with men than with women."
Get back to us when you've figured out how to quantify bitchiness and assholery.
Sex differences correlated with gender. Presumably testosterone for the men. And hormonal imbalances for the women.
I was hoping someone would run the numbers on penalties. It shows just what I thought it would: men are penalized in tennis more than women generally. And no one cares.
I am skeptical about 'qualitative comparisons'. How would you reliably determine such things? Wouldn't they be open to lots of confirmation bias?
I think Williams did a masterful job of redirecting the story, so that instead of the story being about her poor play against a superior opponent, it was about a perceived injustice against women.
People are usually sensitive to a double standard when they sense it harms them, but they are oblivious when the double standard favors them. It may be true that women (and men) benefit from double standards in ways they are deeply reluctant to admit.
Those of us who live in a culture of accountability — through work, sports, the military, or whatever else — have zero patience for this.
It has absolutely nothing to do with race or gender.
NYT: Why did she win. Why did she lose. It's not diversity. Both women are dark-skinned. As for Serena, she has an anger management problem, which may be triggered by White Asian-American women and people of lower social class who have the audacity to judge her.
Prof, please consider dropping all identity politics bullshit from your blog, including feminism.
Be a leader. You're a very smart, principled woman.
Help us to dump this stupid, worthless crap. Be better than the other assholes. Lead us to a better, saner place.
The Williams sisters have long had a greater tendency towards "post-match ungraciousness" than most tennis players.
Why isn’t the headline: Whining Black Woman Attacks Asian Woman?
Partly because the other woman is black, too. Not that you will read about it in the newspapers or online.
Next question: What is the ratio of male to female competitors? Are the numbers about the same or are there significantly more men?
Show a disparity like this and the common reaction is to rationalize it: men really do commit more violations and it might still be true that women get overpenalized (because women are paragons of virtue), Serena might still be right, men play more sets than women, etc. I believe Althouse has a gender differences in tag about how women must be portrayed as superior to men.
If the stats went the other day, the common reaction would be SEE, SERENA WAS RIGHT, QED. Her statement was unfalsifiable. To so many people either it’s proved or, at worst, still likely to be true despite the statistics.
Maybe Serena acts like/is penalized like the men because the steroids she takes raise her testosterone levels.
"Is there a norm of better behavior among the women that changes the standard and causes as penalty to be called at less bad behavior?"
This is a relevant question. You can certainly argue that the rule book should be enforced to the letter, but to the extent discretion and unwritten rules apply there's no reason to expect the men's and women's games to have developed identically.
Blah ... blah ... blah ... the fact is that Serena Williams deserved to be penalized. Her behavior was disgraceful.
How about this particular ref? Does he usually enforce the rules - for both women and men- the way he did that day?
Also, what do men really have to do with this? Serena was playing against a woman in a woman's tennis tournament. The rules just have to be fair in the tournament she was in.
So, when it's time to wash the dishes, how do you and Meade decide who gets his/her hands wet?
1. Flip a coin
2. Arm wrestle
3. Discuss feminist dialectics
4. Other
Serena has a well earned reputation for tirades just as McEnroe did. Almost every player will have a bad moment from time to time. If anything, the officials have been too tolerant of her behavior as they were of McEnroe.
But if she wants to play the “female” victim then go ahead. And while we’re talking about that, let’s not forget that Serena is not even close to one of the greatest tennis players ever. She is the greatest women’s tennis player ever. She’s not even in the top 1,000 of greatest players ever.
Could it be that--on average--men and women behave a little differently? Even at this elite level? In that case applying the same standards just might have different results. The horror!
If coaching = cheating, wouldn't this mean women cheat more than men?
If coaching = cheating, wouldn't this mean women cheat more than men?
Men don't ask for directions.
Do we have any evidence that data make a difference? Has any woman changed her mind about "sexism" when shown data that disprove it?
Folks, look at table, look at the numbers for coaching, either the umps call it differently for sexes, or women’s coaches cheat more. This number is an big outlier for the general trend.
And maybe the umps call coaching differently for the sexes. But if so, so what? Seerna was playing against another woman, so as long as the umps are consistent within for woman’s and men’s divisions, who cares?
"but it does discuss another reason to discount the higher numbers in the "men" column on that chart: The men play longer games. There are 5 sets in men's tennis and 3 sets in women's."
They discount the disparity in total number of fines by noting that the potential difference in the number of sets that are played. But they don't provide the ratio of total sets/games/points - how does that compare to the nearly 3:1 ratio in number of fines? The NYT is playing statistical games.
How about this particular ref? Does he usually enforce the rules - for both women and men- the way he did that day?
He is a known stickler. He once slapped a player with a code violation for barking "towel!" at a ballboy too rudely.
One of the benefits of being a veteran player is that you're supposed to know the officials. In baseball, guys know that there are umps you can jaw with a little, and they'll allow some back-and-forth. Then there's Joe West, who will run you. Knowledgeable fans are aware of this. In basketball, it's Joey Crawford, who ejected Tim Duncan for laughing on the bench. Ramos is that guy in tennis.
By the way, the "towel" thing was with Nick Kyrgios, a man.
Tables of numbers are a form scientific sexism used to oppress the wimmin-folk.
Even one number can be sexist: 69.
Could it be that--on average--men and women behave a little differently? Even at this elite level?
The POG have high testosterone levels, so the sex-differences in behavior are likely to be smaller than in the real world.
By my count, we are approaching overall 1,000 comments bitching and whining about how Williams bitches and whines.
What's awful about this incident is not what Serena Williams did. Or that she complained and whined about her punishment.
What's awful about this incident is the number of people (and organizations) willing to overlook her bad behavior, and their attempts to justify it.
Also it's interesting that she played the gender card and not the race card.
When I played high school water polo, the men were sent to the pool directly from the locker room. The women were searched. The reason? Women had hat pins, nail files, barrettes with sharpened tines, and other "weapons" secreted in their bathing suits. There was often blood in the water during the matches.
I like that expression, play the race card.
The idea that race is a trump card that wins the game.
Also the cynical suggestion that you are playing a game, or gaming the system.
Nobody says play the gender card.
Because women never play the gender card so it's not a thing?
Or because the word "gender" always seems like such a pussy word? And the smart ass who came up with play the race card would probably say "sex" rather than "gender."
And "play the sex card" never caught on because it just confuses people.
I honestly think her reaction was more intense than usual because of post-partum depression.
By my count, we are approaching overall 1,000 comments bitching and whining about how Williams bitches and whines.
The interest for me is how the fake-news conglomerate "came together" to make an issue out of this extra-super-trivial non-incident by pretending that it's important, or exemplifies something important. By lying about it.
Sorry Saint Croix, I guess it sounds like I was justifying her behavior. I'm not making a judgment, just saying that her reaction was over the top in contrast to her usual tirades.
"Show me the worst things male players have done and escaped a penalty."
Better, show me the other times Serena Williams acted like this and escaped a penalty. She has been acting like this for years but because she is Serena Williams they turned a blind eye to it. She is rarely held accountable because she is Serena Williams so it came as toxic shock when someone applied the same rules to her.
For all their antics, there is no instance of tennis governing bodies agreeing that McEnroe, Connors, Nastase, etc. lost because of referees had it in for them. I do not recall a winner's ceremony (male or female) where the governing body attacked the officiating and degraded the winner.
Osaka beat her soundly (for the second time in the last few months) and all the drama queening in the world will not change that.
More white men than black men are shot by cops, too, but you don't see them kneeling during the anthem.
It's curious that sexism is a charge when men don't play women in tennis. There isn't a man to favor in any given women's match, the only question that actually matters is whether the referees are applying their standards consistently across the womens matches and to both players in a given match. Serena should only have a gripe about the officiating if either the referee was showing favoritism toward Osaka or if referees in general have been more harsh with her than with other women (although, as any referee will tell you, certain players get less benefit of the doubt on account of their attitude than others).
Serena has been playing a long time. It's funny how sexism with the referees was apparently not a problem worth discussing when she was destroying the competition, but now that she's getting older and a young competitor like Osaka has beaten her twice, suddenly there's a sexism problem to deflect from the fact that she's in the twilight of her career. Did anybody not catch the cognitive dissonance of claiming that Osaka won because of sexism?
In basketball, it's Joey Crawford, who ejected Tim Duncan for laughing on the bench.
That's the Roe v. Wade of basketball officiating.
I used to think it was a good thing when John Roberts compared himself to an umpire.
Now I don't like it at all!
Stern came down so hard on that ref it's not even funny.
Fined him a $100,000. And ordered him to go see a Park Avenue psychiatrist. Twice.
That's like a WTF on top of a WTF.
Missing the point. Williams's defenders made the claim men are never penalized the way she was. Refuted.
Just after the match I read two pieces. The WaPo claimed no man had ever had such a serious penalty in a major, The other was by a referee who penalized McEnroe with a match forfeiture. The WaPo was lying. Many of Williams's defenders are lying.
When Williams starts playing on the male circuit, she will have a complaint about disparate treatment of the genders in tennis penalties.
McEnroe was more famous for his outbursts than his tennis. He was roundly mocked for them. Any late night comedian who makes fun of Serena Williams is committing career suicide. He would have more chances of survival, i.e. none, making fun of Valerie Jarrett than making fun of Serena Williams........I think the etiology of McEnroe's and Serena's outbursts are similar, but there's a wild disparity in the way in which those outburts are treated.......Her parents did her a disservice when they named her Serena.
William, are you suggesting that certain groups are sacrosanct??? :-O ;-)
"If and when they make a movie about Serena Williams, I wonder what are the chances she'll get the "I, Tonya" treatment and we'll be encouraged to laugh at her histrionics. Extremely low, I think."
I should hope so: she's hardly Tonya Harding. And I like Tonya Harding. But the Williams sisters are iconic, not only of blacks in sports but of athletes - guided by black American fathers to achieve greatness - like Tiger Woods, and many other lesser-known athletes. They're unique.
mockturtle said...
"More white men than black men are shot by cops, too, but you don't see them kneeling during the anthem."
They're stupid. Plus, this was left for them, so who cares?
Look, as long as white men don't want to make a concerted effort to determine and establish what's-what, I don't think complaints about what anyone does "in protest" during the anthem (or anywhere else) are warranted, because - face it - they don't know and you haven't figured it out, either. So - enjoy the show while it lasts - and the rest of your lifetime of resentment at the wreckage. Take a homeopathic "remedy" if reality gets too bad for you.
Signed,
Those guys
I'm all broken up about the sadz of a millionaire iggner.
"I'm just assuming the "no press" violation is about interacting with the press."
It's a fine for skipping a mandatory press conference/media availability. So, it's about not interacting.
Is there a norm of better behavior among the women that changes the standard and causes as penalty to be called at less bad behavior?
Didn't we answer this with the debate gender swap?
Crack: mockturtle will successfully defend her racism by standing on top of a soapbox made from her black ex-husband, her half-black daughter and her still friendly black ex-inlaws. It's like a get out of jail free card.
Expat(ish) said...
Ball Abuse?
Rene Richards, call your office!
WTH is ball abuse? Inquiring minds want to know!
@maybee -- I don't have the exact number, but I saw an article a few days ago that said the ref in question has penalized 8 (or so) men for the exact same behaviors. First a warning, then a point penalty, then a game penalty.
He has reffed more men's matches than women's, but I'm not sure how many more. But unless it's 8 times more, you can't accuse him of unequal treatment for women.
WTH is ball abuse?
Master Series Penis and Testicle Crusher (3.6/5 stars)
HT the worst things for sale
Osaka won the tourney, penalties or no.
I'm betting she wins a few more, in future.
She played well.
Everybody saw what was happening. She was getting her ass kicked.
And she acted exactly like she has in the past when she was getting her ass kicked.
She's simply Hillary with a better serve.
I, Tonya is awesome. So damn funny. Everybody stop what they're doing and go watch it!
The Williams sisters have long had a greater tendency towards "post-match ungraciousness" than most tennis players.
Yep. And it starts with the parents.
Remember when Richard Williams called Irina Spirlea a 'big, tall, white turkey?'
Yeah. Nothing racist about that, Rick.
Is there a chart of penalties by nationality?
"Blogger Yancey Ward said...When Williams starts playing on the male circuit, she will have a complaint about disparate treatment of the genders in tennis penalties.9/15/18, 11:03 AM"
I know your comment is not serious. But I would like to see that. Only problem we would never see her play the full 5 sets vs. women 3 sets. Whose rules will they play. MSM will push for women's rules. Remember how they rigged the rules in the Riggs vs. Billy Jean King. Hell I remember when Riggs beat Margaret Court in the "Battle of the Sexes". Plus Conners beat Navratola (in adjusted rules favoring Naratova) in 2 sets. LOL - "battle of the sexes" PR hype only - not tennis.
Serena's complaint is that men get away with it, while she got a code violation. The verbal abuse stats show that's untrue 62 vs. 16 in favor of men.
But there's more. We can assume that for every 'verbal Abuse Violation" called there were numerous cases where the player got off with a warning. Lets just assume that's 50% of verbal abuse violations. That would mean:
Verbal Abuse:
Men: 62 code violations + 30 warnings = 92 incidents
Women 16 code violations + 8 warnings = 24 incidents
This is why women players think "The men are getting away with things they can't". They forget the 62 code violations, but remember the 30 men warnings for verbal abuse. Meanwhile, the Women get so few warnings, that is forgotten too.
Part of the support for Serena comes from the fact that she's not a beauty. She has a pretty face, but the from the neck down she's built like a pocket-sized Linebacker. Go look at some of her pictures, she has biceps that would make a Longshoreman envious.
So, people feel protective of her. If you just want to confine yourself to race, look at Aretha Gibson. She was 5-11 but she was willowy and graceful. I don't she got the same protective feeling from the US open crowds.
does this warrant another "No woman should ever be made to feel bad, or responsible..." etc ?
Riggs supposedly threw the match, not just because of Mob money, but because he expected Bill Jean King to give him a rematch, and then after he won, to make it the best two out of three.
But Billy Jean King, ignored all the money, and just said no. I'm not too sure why. Maybe, she knew she couldn't beat Riggs another time, or knew he'd thrown their match.
Okay everybody, let's see your tennis resumes before you comment because Bob R @7:06 is not interested in your comment unless your bona fide is approved by him. Hey Bob R, why don't you go have a drink of some shut the fuck up and keep eating shit, you asshole. Fucking douchebag, you must work in government, you shithead.
Hey Bob R, you fucking bitch, I hate tennis, I never watch it, I couldn't care less about it, so here's what I think: the big fat black bitch who threw the tantrum looked like Henrietta Hippo in that tutu she was wearing, and she acted like some ignorant ghetto cunt attacking a little Vietnamese girl because she wanted to get out of paying for her fingernails. Oh, and fuck you Bob R, fucking bitch.
...apparently Serena's not the only one with 'roid rage issues...
Hey Bob R, ya know what sucks? Tennis. And you. Bitch.
EDH:
Here is the companion piece
Once upon a time, 4,000 to 8,000 years after humanity invented agriculture, something very strange happened to human reproduction. Across the globe, for every 17 women who were reproducing, passing on genes that are still around today—only one man did the same.
. . .
The team uncovered this dip-and-rise in the male-to-female reproductive ratio by looking at DNA from more than 450 volunteers from seven world regions. Geneticists analyzed two parts of the DNA, Y-chromosome DNA and mitochondrial DNA. These don't make up a large portion of a person's genetics, but they're special because people inherit Y-chromosome DNA exclusively from their male ancestors and mitochondrial DNA exclusively from their female ancestors. By analyzing diversity in these parts, scientists are able to deduce the numbers of female and male ancestors a population has. It's always more female.
This means that if everyone's children varied around a mean, and women select for the high end of traits, those who have boys with higher variation have a higher chance of being in the top tier.
Women made us men what we are, and now (some) of them complain about it.
Ignorance is Bliss @ 7:14 ... LMFAO. I am Machine Gun Mike, the Keyboard Killer, so smile when you say that, or end up in a puddle of invective, like hapless ass Bob R....
A very under reported story, the different tennis balls that the men and women use at the US Open. The women's is less felted, thus can be hit harder and faster. Hmmm, Serena has the fastest serve, wonder why?
And I thought it was ALL about equality?
https://www.thestar.com/sports/tennis/2012/09/10/us_open_why_not_all_tennis_balls_are_alike.html
Blogger Sebastian said...
Do we have any evidence that data make a difference? Has any woman changed her mind about "sexism" when shown data that disprove it?
Agenda comes before data. Once data has been massaged to prove (sic) the agenda, all other data is false.
Those numbers are next to useless. They admit as much in the article, that men play more sets and there are more men playing.
It's like age-adjusting health statistics. If you look at two groups of people where one group skews significantly older, there will be more incidences of disease in the older group.
You have to adjust for those things. Otherwise we're just blathering about nothing.
Tonya was/is a deplorable. Therefore, is meant to be part of the cultural genocide that the left has arranged for that populace. Serena is part of the protected classes, even though she is a millionaire many times over.
Speaking of sexist inequality, women play best of three sets, men play best of 5 sets in the majors. MANY men’s matches go 5+ hours.
Women get the same prize money. Truly unfair to the men.
Then there is the meme that “women get paid less than men”. In aggregate yes. Per specific job type, no. The propagandists pushing that lie know it’s a lie, but the media swallow it whole.
As McEnroe said, Serena couldn’t beat #600on the men’s tour. I think he knows enough about tennis to satisfy even Bob.
Althouse I second another poster’s request. Deep six your feminist cheerleading. It’s tiresome and stupid.
The data only spell out that, in this particular period, men received a lot more fines than women. That isn't the only issue. If women commit 10 violations and receive 9 fines but then men commit 300 violations and receive 50 fines, is that fair? Men still get more fines and at the same time get away with murder. Serena was a poor loser that day and I am not defending her conduct on that particular day. Leave Serena aside for the moment. I haven't seen any data that addresses this second point. (Mostly because I don't give a fig about tennis.)
Maybe Unscientific, but could be interesting ...
Professora,
Using your tags would it be possible to compile table of topics that you have blogged pre Trump and post? On issues re media, politics, law etc.
Has Trump era raised the frequency, tone and seriosness of discussion?
Women walk all the time on sex crimes with minors, even when (especially when?) the women are teachers and the victims their students.
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