Althouse: "There were hundreds of 'predator priests' sexually abusing more than 1,000 children in Pennsylvania for decades..."

August 14, 2018

"There were hundreds of 'predator priests' sexually abusing more than 1,000 children in Pennsylvania for decades..."

"... all while being shielded by Roman Catholic Church leaders, according to a scathing grand jury report released Tuesday. 'The main thing was not to help children, but to avoid scandal,' the report states, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. 'Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing: They hid it all.'... Church officials would routinely use language like 'horseplay' to downplay concerns brought forward by victims or their families, [Attorney General Josh Shapiro said].... The report names 301 abusive priests, but the grand jury received files on more than 400, Shapiro said, adding, 'We don’t think we got them all' because not all allegations were documented by the church. Dozens of church superiors were also named as complicit.... About 1,000 child victims were identifiable from the church’s records, but investigators believe the real number is much greater...."

The NY Post reports.

175 comments:

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: This would not have happened if churches where held to the standards of Government.; 8/14/18, 3:53 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Over 300 priests? How many priests were there total during that period?; 8/14/18, 3:54 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: Not very Christian of me, but some people do unforgivable things. The rapist priests and those who enabled them included.; 8/14/18, 3:57 PM
n.n said...: A culture of #NoJudgment and #NoLabels. A safe haven for the transgendered and gendered deviants.; 8/14/18, 3:57 PM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: "Church officials would routinely use language like “horseplay” to downplay concerns brought forward by victims or their families...."

So, zoophilia also?; 8/14/18, 4:02 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: McCarrick’s successor, Cardinal Donald Wuerl, a former longtime leader of the Pittsburgh diocese, warned priests in a letter that the probe will be “profoundly disturbing.”

Preceded by thousands of other profoundly disturbing probes.; 8/14/18, 4:04 PM
traditionalguy said...: Once again ritual sacramental services elevate the Priest to be the community magician who is a family's only way to God. And then the fake SOB's like to ruin the lives of children of those families.

No wonder Roman Catholics priests were illegal in the early colonies.; 8/14/18, 4:04 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: This continues to be so disturbing and tragic. The movie “Spotlight” is worth watching, it portrays the Boston Globe’s Spotlight team’s investigation into child sexual abuse by Catholic clergy. The Globe won the Pulitzer Prize in 2003 for their investigative journaling/Public Service.; 8/14/18, 4:09 PM
etbass said...: The Catholic Church has lost its moral authority. I don't think many Catholics pay much attention to what the Church decrees even though many still attend church out of a personal commitment that far exceeds that of the average priest. Very sad.; 8/14/18, 4:10 PM
gerry said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 4:11 PM
gerry said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 4:14 PM
Dave Begley said...: etbass is right on target.

This is a total disaster. Unforgivable.

The thing I never understood about this coverup was this: These men were criminals. You call the police when you learn about crimes being committed.

I was at Mass last week and the priest said we had to fight racism. I thought Barack got rid of that. And then I get subjected to their call for open borders and I wonder why I even go to Mass. I just overlook the stupid stuff is my answer.; 8/14/18, 4:14 PM
The Godfather said...: Child sex abuse by priests is not new news. I assumed after Boston that the Church would get its house in order, but apparently not. Maybe Pope Francis could take some time off from solving climate change and revising Catholic theology, to clean house.; 8/14/18, 4:18 PM
mccullough said...: Sounds like Penn State.; 8/14/18, 4:18 PM
DKWalser said...: I am NOT trying to belittle the great harm done to these children, however, in judging the actions of the church we should try to remember the context. Back then, starting in the late '50s, psychology was teaching us that child molesters responded well to treatment. The kids, too, suffered no long-term consequences -- as long as they got proper treatment.

So, as a society, we adopted a therapy model for dealing with these kind of problems rather than the traditional penal system. We were very "modern" and "enlightened" in our thinking back then. To this end, if a school district caught one of its teachers sleeping with a student, the teacher would quietly be transferred to another district in another part of the state. Why ruin a good man's career over a silly mistake when he could be cured with proper treatment? Church's did basically the same thing with their leaders. The urge to molest could be treated. Why make a criminal case out of what was basically an illness?

Of course, all that seems silly today. But, back then, it's what the best doctors in the field insisted was true. Given what we now know, who's really at fault? The doctors who recommended that these molesters be kept at large (and their crimes hidden from the public), or the churches (and schools) who were foolish enough to follow their advice?; 8/14/18, 4:19 PM
mccullough said...: Like Sandusky, the victims are almost always vulnerable. These priests don’t molest boys with fathers at home. Those dads would rip those vampires in half.; 8/14/18, 4:20 PM
Chuck said...: The LGBT political lobby is such that we'll probably never get any good and realistic psychological studies of the links between male homosexuality and pedophilia. (If not pedophilia, then sexual overtures to post-pubescent boys.) In the 20th century, the Roman Catholic priesthood was a huge magnet for closeted homosexuals. And we now see, in one mass case after another, the epidemiological effects of that.

It appears that homosexuals and the gay-adoring media would like to place blame on the philosophy and administration of the Roman Catholic church. Not in the context of the church's having quietly been the most gay-friendly (for closeted gays) institution on the planet, but rather in the context of an attack on an institution whose lay membership (and official positions) oppose the normalization of homosexuality. I think that as long as the Roman Catholic church opposes the normalization of homosexuality, the mainstream media will continue to ramp up attacks on the church. Roman Catholics, Southern Baptists, Republicans.

I should, however, leave Roman Catholic matters up to Roman Catholics. I am not, and never have been, a Roman Catholic and no one in my immediate family is Roman Catholic.; 8/14/18, 4:21 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: I wonder often if the Church will survive in its current form.; 8/14/18, 4:21 PM
rhhardin said...: Child sexual abuse didn't exist as a (high-ratings) public problem before the 70s. Before that it was a personal moral failing.

Adolf Guggenbuhl-Craig says that much of today's harm to victims is done by the hysteria over it, but ratings rule.; 8/14/18, 4:23 PM
rhhardin said...: Borderline pedophiles make good teachers, Guggenbuhl Craig also says. They can sustain an interest in what the child is saying long past a normal adult, who tunes out.

I imagine the priesthood selects for borderline pedophiles that way. They like children and relate to them.; 8/14/18, 4:25 PM
Rick said...: I assumed after Boston that the Church would get its house in order, but apparently not.

I can't reach the actual report but there's nothing in this article suggesting these are recent. It seems more re-reporting given the comments:

Because of church officials’ coverup actions, nearly every instance of abuse in the grand jury report is too old to be prosecuted, PennLive.com reported. A lot of the accused are also dead or long since removed from the ministry.; 8/14/18, 4:26 PM
jimbino said...: Now it's a well-known fact that priests and pastors have been abusing kids and even seminarians for ages. The real scandal is that cops are still going around to elementary schools and neighborhood gatherings like National Night Out preaching "stranger danger" with the message, rampant here in Kenosha, that kids should never talk to strangers.

The child-abuse statistics, on the other hand, overwhelmingly show strangers guiltless compared to the parents, relatives, priests, teachers and others well known to the abused children. In fact, cops themselves are shown to be greater family abusers than civilians.

To reflect modern reality, the "stranger danger" mantra should be changed to "if you feel threatened by a family member, priest or cop, say something to a stranger."; 8/14/18, 4:28 PM
Seeing Red said...: Or teacher especially female.; 8/14/18, 4:37 PM
buwaya said...: 2-3% of the priests serving there over the period (70 years), my back of the envelope.

This is about the coverup, most certainly.

Its well known that there has long been a "lavender mafia" in the Church.
This goes back a long time, Malachi Martin warned about this repeatedly, and even wrote a novel featuring that, ("Windswept House"), several years before the story broke open in the MSM.

Cardinal McCarrick was mainly accused of abuse of seminarians (college aged men), plus one case of a teenage boy. This atmosphere of perversion is all one.; 8/14/18, 4:40 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: For anyone who still feels they need lyrics for "A Message To Kanye":

Clairvoyants / Celebrity and Fame / Goop.com / Shirley MacLaine / Con Artists / Obvious Fraud / Fringe Activities / The American Public Has Greatly Changed

[Chorus:] The Democrats / It's A Cult / The Democrats / Believing Whatever Nutty Thing You Want To Believe / The Democrats / It's A Cult / The Democrats / Always Has Been Always Will Be (Repeat)

Maxine Waters / The Corrupt Perverse Miss / She’s Standing On Her Head Doing Yoga / The Higher Level Of Consciousness / Obsessed With Mysticism / Spirituality / They’ve Caught The Witches / The Blurring Between Fiction And Reality

[Chorus with “Come on, Y’all!”]

Astrology / To An Extreme Degree / Ellen DeGeneres / The Liberal Press / UFOs / Politicians Who Can’t Say So / Narcissistic Tendencies / Gwyneth Paltrow / The Consciousness Is Way Up Here / Alternate Factual Realities / Medical Quackery / All This Stupid Nonsense / Con Artist Oprah / Pay More For Organic Food / An Unscientific Belief System / The American People CAN Handle The Truth

[Chorus with “Come on, Y’all!”]

Insane / I Really Appreciate Yoga A Lot / And I Talk About Alternate Nostril Breathing! / I Tried To Keep Up A Practice During The Campaign / Donald Trump Is The President Today / But I Found It Very Relaxing / I Don’t Know Why You Think Anybody, Even A Black Woman, Would Want To Be With Your Lazy, Loser Ass / The Occult / Slavery Is Good - No! Slavery Is Bad - Yo! / The Democrats / You Forgot Again, Ahhhh / It’s A Cult (Repeat) / And The Breath Work / Brainwashed / The American Philosopher, Ken Wilber, Wrote A Whole Book About It / Homeopathy / And The Breath Work / Um, Despite Rather Felacious Claims To The Contrary

[Chorus with “Come on, Y’all!”]

Excerpt From Malcolm X’s “Political Chump” Speech

[Chorus with “Come on, Y’all!”]

Voices Include: John Stoessell, Jimmy Kimmel, Frank Welker, David Sedaris, Maura Liason, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Kurt Andersen, John Podesta, Patrick Stewart, Brett Baer

I can do a "Catholic Child Molester Mix" if the price is right.; 8/14/18, 4:40 PM
AustinRoth said...: "I wonder often if the Church will survive in its current form."

A strong case can be made that it hasn't already, and that Vatican II destroyed the underpinnings of the church. Or heck, go all the way back to Martin Luther.; 8/14/18, 4:40 PM
n.n said...: A culture of corruption and debasement that persisted under a layer of privacy. An insider perspective of why it happened and why it was allowed to progress: Why Don’t the Priests Blow the Whistle?. The Catholic Church's realization of the "deep state".; 8/14/18, 4:43 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: @AustinRoth

I attend a Latin Mass at a parish in Jersey City from time to time. The mostly Polish and Eastern European immigrants in that congregation refuse to accept Vatican II, and I can see why every time I visit.

The Latin Mass was a crucial symbol and a beautiful ritual. Performed well, it is an artistic masterpiece.; 8/14/18, 4:44 PM
buwaya said...: "that Vatican II destroyed the underpinnings of the church. "

As per Malachi Martin.

A great purge is in order, including especially in its primary academic institutions.; 8/14/18, 4:47 PM
Oso Negro said...: @ Chuck - the data for a longitudinal study is right there. But you are right, in this era no ill can be identified in homosexuality.; 8/14/18, 4:48 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: It's ugly. But I bet it's similar to the FBI - a great institution hijacked by some crazies at the upper level. The Church needs to purge all these weirdo Priests.; 8/14/18, 4:48 PM
Etienne said...: The way Germany was able to gas and then cremate all the Jews, was to first make them into an evil cult, and then the religion could be seen as the enabler, and thus the way forward was to outlaw the religion and kill all the believers.

First they took all their wealth.; 8/14/18, 4:51 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: Good stuff, TCE. Two songs for voting day.; 8/14/18, 4:53 PM
Virgil Hilts said...: Celibacy is stupid; 99%+ of mentally and physically healthy men desire sex, regardless of their bent, and designing a profession where only celibates can apply is to design one that invites in, statistically, a disproportionate number of unhealthy, twisted souls. It has been that way for a couple thousand years and this story is neither shocking nor surprising.; 8/14/18, 4:54 PM
FullMoon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 4:56 PM
Etienne said...: Guilty until proven innocent.; 8/14/18, 4:58 PM
tim maguire said...: Shouting Thomas, the church on Monmouth Street? I can't remember the name even though I attended services there a handful of times about 15 years ago when I lived a block away.

I share your concern for the future of the church. If you believe that Catholicism is the correct way to find God, then the survival of the church is the most important thing, but it may well be bankrupted by what its leaders allowed to happen in the name of protecting the church.

I don't support the vow of chastity and believe it makes the priesthood attractive to people uncomfortable with their sexuality.; 8/14/18, 4:59 PM
DKWalser said...: The Latin Mass was a crucial symbol and a beautiful ritual. Performed well, it is an artistic masterpiece.

All true. The Latin Mass is also something that would most likely have been completely unfamiliar to Peter, James, John, or any of the others who personally, followed Christ, and preached His gospel to the world after His Ascension.; 8/14/18, 5:02 PM
jimbino said...: @Virgil Hilts

Celibacy is stupid

Right. And what about unicorns, angels, devils, ghosts, talking snakes and donkeys, water changing into wine, wine into blood, crackers into flesh, and virgin birth, assumptions, resurrections--all mentioned in the Bible--and immaculate conception--recently invented (and misunderstood by Catholics almost universally)?; 8/14/18, 5:04 PM
LincolnTf said...: I know it's verboten to mention the most salient fact, but I'll do it anyway. The Church didn't molest those kids, Gay rapists did. I lived in Massachusetts during the worst of the scandals, even had an event happen at my own private, all-male High School. The Church didn't violate these kids, homosexuals who found a comfortable nesting place did. But gay rapists are sacred and Priests are profane these days.; 8/14/18, 5:05 PM
LincolnTf said...: I guarantee it was at least 90% boys. Always is.; 8/14/18, 5:06 PM
Paul said...: Now gang, I'm Catholic. Been since I was, well, baptized as a baby. I understand the religion well and the sacrament of forgives. Forgiveness is vital if we are to be at peace.

BUT..

I do also believe in JUSTICE. In balancing the books. And Jesus Himself said that give to Caesar what is Caesar's. That is JUSTICE.

Those that have done crimes should face Justice in the courts. And the Catholic Church, from the Pope's on desk, should order the Cardinals, Bishops, and Priest to open their books and if any of them have done such crimes they should be ordered to confess to the COURTS their crimes. Otherwise their sins will NOT BE FORGIVEN.. ever, and they still will be turned over to courts BY THE CHURCH HERSELF.; 8/14/18, 5:07 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I am skeptical of the number of these because I would have thought a few parents would have killed the priests when they found out.

In the TV show Ray Donovan, they killed the wrong priest and then the right priest was killed a little while later. In my mind, that would have happened way more often if the number of these claims is accurate.

But I could be wrong.; 8/14/18, 5:10 PM
robother said...: I wonder about the prevalence of borderline (or full-bore) homosexuality in the ministry, Protestant and Catholic alike, as well as the teaching and nursing professions. As rhhardin notes, I suspect it has long been a feature of out society, and may be positively correlated with a gentleness and caring that we want in those professions. I also imagine that the Great Sexual Liberation movement of the 60s may have primed the pump for the explosion of these sexual abuse cases.

The cause of plaintiff's lawyers and politicians in these cases has also been greatly aided by the free use of the term "children" to describe victims. I suspect that a tiny portion of the victims have been pre-pubescent, and that the vast majority have been 15 to 17 year olds. If so, obviously, it is still a legal problem, but I find it more ambiguous as a moral issue, particularly if no penetration was involved.; 8/14/18, 5:12 PM
Jaq said...: People need religion, but celibacy is a ridiculous idea, I guess it sounded good when they first said it.; 8/14/18, 5:13 PM
LincolnTf said...: Boys who are molested rarely tell anyone due to embarrassment, shame, fear of ostracization. Girls usually tell, that's one main reason the pedophiles target the boys.; 8/14/18, 5:13 PM
Merny11 said...: I was raised Catholic, raised our kids that wat too. As a child I had some “creepy” priests and nuns. Nothing obvious, they just made us uncomfortable. We would laugh and talk on the playground about some things but none of us said anything to our parents - those were the days when parents always always sided with the teachers and not their kids, so no one bothered. The 50,s and 60’s. Not aware of any actual rapes or similar though. My memories are more about the nuns and priests being mean, arrogant, overall unkind.
My kids never reported any odd things to us, however unlike me they had more lay teachers than clergy.
Part of me thinks a lot of this overblown - how did I and my seven siblings attend catholic school in that time frame and not be aware of any serious incidents?; 8/14/18, 5:16 PM
Jaq said...: Blogger Oso Negro said...
Hell, the Pope’s not even a Catholic.

Well, thank God for snappy folk sayings that bears still shit in the woods!; 8/14/18, 5:17 PM
buwaya said...: More on the Lavender Mafia -

The neglected root of the Church sex-abuse scandal

"that's one main reason the pedophiles target the boys"

The "pedophiles" are homosexual.; 8/14/18, 5:18 PM
wild chicken said...: The church was always full of homos. Francis Parkman made it clear that the French missionaries loved their Indian boys.

How far back does the rot go?; 8/14/18, 5:23 PM
Jaq said...: The Pope is far too busy ignoring Jesus's precept about rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and dreaming up new schemes for "distribution."; 8/14/18, 5:23 PM
LincolnTf said...: The vast majority are homosexual, but there also some universal creeps, who take pleasure from abusing the weak, of whatever sex. The gays do it systematically and institutionally-, while the, shall we say "Bi", psychopaths take what they can get when they can get it.; 8/14/18, 5:24 PM
Chuck said...: buwaya said...
More on the Lavender Mafia -

The neglected root of the Church sex-abuse scandal

"that's one main reason the pedophiles target the boys"

The "pedophiles" are homosexual.

When have you and I agreed on anything in recent times? That article you linked from Phil Lawler (whom I understand to be a notoriously reasonable and moderate conservative among Catholic laity) said what I didn't have the Catholic chops to say. I'm grateful for the link. I enjoyed the read.; 8/14/18, 5:25 PM
BamaBadgOR said...: Imagine being a kid on the wrong end of an unwelcome advance from someone with alleged authority from God.; 8/14/18, 5:26 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: I don't want to minimize the charges. If Priests are molesting boys, they should be taken out and shot.

But, here's my concern with the story:

Where are the parents?

In Northern California, my kids went to a great little catholic school, K thru 8. Maybe 400 kids. There is 1 priest. He's a nice guy, but he's mostly a figure-head. The school is co-ed, 50-50 boys and girls. The school is run by 50 or so Mothers who do everything. They hold the fundraisers, they organize the field trips, they volunteer in the classroom. They RUN the place.

The teachers are almost all women. Along with the Mothers, they RUN the place too.

My kids have been going thru this school and the subsequent catholic high school for 15 years.

I have never once heard of any complaints. I've put in hundreds of volunteer hours, I've coached numerous basketball teams, soccer teams, volleyball teams, we all have to get fingerprinted, we all have to get certified, we all have to take all these BS classes -- and over the past 15 years, I've never heard of one solitary complaint.

So, either Pennsylvania is 180 degrees different from Northern California, or we're not hearing the "rest of the story."; 8/14/18, 5:26 PM
etbass said...: The case in Scripture for celibacy is exceedingly weak.; 8/14/18, 5:27 PM
Jeff said...: The Catholic Church teaches that any and all sex that is not "oriented" towards reproduction inside a marriage is immoral. It tells homosexuals that they are "objectively disordered". If you're a believer with homosexual inclinations, the Church tells you that the only moral way for you to live is to be forever celibate. And did we mention that our priests are celibate? And that God helps them to be celibate?

It should surprise absolutely no one that so many priests are gay. Not only that, the gay priest is supposed to believe, and to teach others, that his own sexuality is "disordered", i.e., that he is himself profoundly defective. Is it any wonder that so many of these guys are psychologically damaged?

Even aside from the way it practically commands homosexuals to become priests, celibacy as a requirement for the priesthood is nuts. The idea that we should take moral advice about how to live and love from people with no experience of sex or parenting boggles the mind.; 8/14/18, 5:27 PM
n.n said...: God's prime directive: be fruitful and multiply within the context of a one man, one woman, couple, forevermore.; 8/14/18, 5:34 PM
Roughcoat said...: This is a battle, even a campaign, that Satan won.

He won't win the war, of course. But he won this round.

I can think of no better proof that Satan exists than this.

The Evil One was brilliant in conceiving and implementing this method of attacking the Church. I can think of no better more effective way to inflict great harm to the Church than this.

I remain a believing Catholic. But my commitment is to the theology not to the institutional Church. I no longer attend mass except very selectively, i.e. I very carefully which Church I will attend. I prefer Churches that celebrate mass in Latin. I also attend Polish Churches, i.e. Churches in which the majority of parishioners are Polish/Polish-American.

I do not go to my parish Church. It's too liberal/left social-justice oriented, and the priests are poncey.

I'm at once disgusted and outraged by the priesthood and what it has become. I am angry and disappointed with the gay community and its leaders for not speaking out about against pedophile priests, most of whom are same-sex abusers, i.e. homosexuals.

I blame the situation in part on Vatican II, which set the stage, as it were, for this to happen. I blame a a gay/homosexual subculture which could not and would not put reasonable boundaries on what was permissible. I blame the Church and its hierarchy.

But most of all I blame Satan, the Father of Lies.

Elizabeth Scalia, a.k.a. "The Anchoress" has recently spoken eloquently, intelligently, and with profound anger on this issue. All those interested should read what she has to say.; 8/14/18, 5:37 PM
William said...: That's quite a frightening number. They're definitely doing something wrong. They really should look into allowing women and married men into the priesthood. My guess is that they will double down on stupid. The Church will remain unchanged, but it will serve s much smaller flock, and, after the lawsuits, they will go to much smaller churches........Different eras have different virtues. Celibacy ain't what it used to be. It's more likely, nowadays, to attract someone with problems than someone who has successfully conquered his base animal nature.....I was raised as a Catholic. I'm no longer a church goer, but I don't have any grudges. The Church did some things right......In this case their sins are unforgivable, but they didn't act so much different than the BBC, the Penn State people, and the Olympic gymnastic administration when faced with similar problems. But, of course, the business of the Church is morality, and you would expect better.; 8/14/18, 5:43 PM
n.n said...: The Church didn't molest those kids.

That is something worth remembering. The actions of the minority are separable with respective to the principles and uniform behavior of the majority. There is nothing in the Catholic religious/moral philosophy that condones, let alone endorses, this deviancy. The moral failure persisted and progressed with individual corruption under a layer of privacy and tolerance.

On a related note: Novena for the Legal Protection of Human Life.; 8/14/18, 5:44 PM
hiawatha biscayne said...: 90% boys? More than that. Hardly any girls at all. Boys and young men.; 8/14/18, 5:45 PM
LincolnTf said...: The LGBTQ "community" is just as culpable as the Church, if not more.; 8/14/18, 5:45 PM
Sebastian said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 5:47 PM
buwaya said...: "Is it any wonder that so many of these guys are psychologically damaged?"

They should not have been admitted to a seminary in the first place.
Granted, it is difficult sometimes to characterize someone's sexuality, but it is not such a problem to expel any who reveal it at some point.

This may reduce the intake of vocations. But on the whole I suspect this may well aid them.
There was it seems a great discouragement of vocations due to the "infected" seminaries and orders. And for that matter, also universities.

A comment on a blog, by an ex-nun - the main thread concerns the Maciel scandal -
Open Book 5/2005

But this comment there, also by an ex-nun, I made note of at the time - note that these juniors are quite young women -

"- Another time, two of the superiors were involved in what looked like an inappropriate relationship. Several sisters went to them and expressed their "confusion" at the blatancy of the goings on. Many of these good women were sent home! I also complained - and then I was told that my lack of trust was a sign that I didn't have a vocation! Eventually, I was pressured out too. Over fifty juniors left in the five years "THOSE TWO" were in power. Years later, after I was back in lay life, I met with the nun from Rome who was in charge of formation for the whole world. She admitted that Rome was "concerned" by all the young sisters in the States who were being sent home. I said, "So WHY DIDN'T YOU DO SOMETHIING?!" She said, looking down, "It wasn't our habit to interfere in the running of the Provinces..." In other words - "We back up the superiors."; 8/14/18, 5:48 PM
Sebastian said...: Already covered by others -- Chuck, robother, Lincoln, but:

"Priests were raping little boys and girls"

I detect fake news.

What proportion were boys? What proportion of the boys were post-pubescent teens? What proportion of the rapists were not pedophiles, as implied in many stories, but gays preying on teens?

Hypothesis: most rapees were male teens, most rapists were gay men, and some of the "rapes" were statutory only.; 8/14/18, 5:48 PM
Roughcoat said...: buwaya opined that a "purge" is needed.

I agree. That's essentially what Elizabeth Scalia is calling for. See especially "7 Steps to Start Fixing the Messes, Before the Catholic Church Empties Out." At:

"http://theanchoress.com/7-suggestions-on-how-to-fix-the-mess-within-the-catholic-church/"

Elizabeth's most recent six posts at her Anchoress blog address this issue.; 8/14/18, 5:49 PM
langford peel said...: If the Church had kept the faggots out none or very little of this would ever happen.

Now the same lawsuits will be coming to the Boy Scouts which will be bankrupt and destroyed in ten years.

You need to keep the perverts out of your organization. For the Children.; 8/14/18, 5:49 PM
Roughcoat said...: n.n. is correct.

The Catholic Church has its own version of the Deep State. It is leftist, dominated or heavily influenced by homosexual/pedophile priests, and it is evil.; 8/14/18, 5:51 PM
n.n said...: re: God's prime directive

Which happens to coincide with evolutionary fitness. Whether a myth of an extra-universal philosopher, or the salient insight and wisdom of our forefathers and mothers, the principles inherited from our ancestors can be judged on their own merits.; 8/14/18, 5:53 PM
etbass said...: The relevant Scripture on celibacy form I Corinthians 7; 1-7

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.; 8/14/18, 5:54 PM
Humperdink said...: Why did Willie Sutton rob banks? According to Willie, that's where the money was.

Why do pedophiles go into the priesthood? That's where the boys are.; 8/14/18, 5:54 PM
LincolnTf said...: I wonder if I made a "Stop Raping Kids!" banner in the rainbow pattern, some of the sicko gay rapists might understand me better? Nah, deviant sexual behavior is their only identity, they will cling to it forever. Sad.; 8/14/18, 5:55 PM
madAsHell said...: This happened in the archdiocese of Seattle.

It turns out that we were married by a pedophile. So.....I got that working for me!; 8/14/18, 5:55 PM
n.n said...: Roughcoat:

There is testimony from a Catholic priest in Tampa, Florida, which is presumably corroborated by others in the Church. See the link I posted above: "Why Don’t the Priests Blow the Whistle?" A Latin Mass, too.; 8/14/18, 5:57 PM
etbass said...: I don't know that much about the Eastern Orthodox church but am pretty sure they do not sanction celibacy and as far as I know do not have the pedophile problem that the western Church has.; 8/14/18, 5:59 PM
Two-eyed Jack said...: Picking up on Sebastian's comment, the refusal to look objectively at frequencies by age and sex can result in a blind spot for the Catholic hierarchy. McCarrick was involved with young(ish) men, some of whom were confused about their own sexuality or were gay. When confronted with accusations against others who might be abusing much younger boys, was the incentive to minimize the abuse and not look too closely? Many stories I have seen look that way to my outside eyes. Likewise, the stories of straight priests impregnating 17 year-old girls. Were these indulged because they didn't look as bad as what people higher in the hierarchy considered acceptable?
The reports pointed to here simply pile everything on as proof of the implosion in the Church's authority, rather than making distinctions that might clarify.
Overall, I'd rather have the Church reformed, though no one has elected me Pope and my ideas are probably Lutheran anyway, but I worry that the Church will be torn apart and sold for scrap to pay jury judgements.; 8/14/18, 6:01 PM
Michael K said...: Back then, starting in the late '50s, psychology was teaching us that child molesters responded well to treatment.

They did respond to castration but it was not permitted. Nothing else worked. There were child molesters in California begging for castration, or at least estrogen injections.

I have previously pointed out a good book on the seminaries called "Goodbye Good Men," which has been in print for decades.

What proportion of the rapists were not pedophiles, as implied in many stories, but gays preying on teens?

This not allowed to be discussed, just as gay men's attraction to young boys and adolescents.

They are mostly not pedophiles but gays indulging their interest in adolescent males.

Shhhhhh!; 8/14/18, 6:01 PM
Michael K said...: Likewise, the stories of straight priests impregnating 17 year-old girls.

I knew straight priests who had long term relationships with women. A cousin died of breast cancer (an increased risk for childless women,) and her lover-priest said her funeral Mass.

After she died, he got his clothes out of her house before the family arrived to clean it up and prepare to sell.

They used to have vacations in Las Vegas with other priest couples.; 8/14/18, 6:05 PM
LincolnTf said...: Newsflash, Michael K., the people you describe were Priests only in name, not in practice. Impostors. Just like the gay rapists. If you don't want to live by the vows, don't take them. And if you break them, you are out. Pretty simple shit.; 8/14/18, 6:07 PM
Roughcoat said...: n.n.: thanks.

I am, btw, aware that applying the term "pedophile" to abusive priests is incorrect given that the vast overwhelming majority of those who have been abused were adolescent boys. Phil Lawler in his post at CatholicCulture.org ("The neglected root of the Church sex-abuse scandal") correctly identifies the problem as one stemming from a promiscuous libertine amoral homosexual subculture and practiced by aggressive homosexual priests who have turned to evil, who have chosen to commit evil, and who do not fear the consequences of their actions either in this life or in the life to come.; 8/14/18, 6:08 PM
MountainJohn said...: The Catholic Church has its own version of the Deep State. It is leftist, dominated or heavily influenced by homosexual/pedophile priests, and it is evil.

Indeed. Malachi Martin referred to it as the Anti-Church.

Windswept House is a brilliant novel for anyone who wants to understand this. And yes... it is Satan at work.; 8/14/18, 6:14 PM
buwaya said...: "I knew straight priests who had long term relationships with women."

This was an ancient custom of the Philippine Church.
Out in the provinces, especially, it was normal for a priest to acquire a mistress, and have children.

There is an old joke (a very, very old joke) about Filipino surnames.

That bastards or foundlings would be given a neutral name so as not to implicate their parents. Yes, just like in "Game of Thrones".

It was said that the offspring of soldiers were named "Reyes" or "De Los Reyes" - "The Kings' Own", and those of clergymen "Santos", or "De Los Santos" - "Of the Saints".

There are many more Santos than Reyes.; 8/14/18, 6:16 PM
Jeff said...: Buwaya and some others here think the solution is to kick gays out of the priesthood. There are a couple of problems with that. The first is, as Buwaya noted, "it is difficult sometimes to characterize someone's sexuality." Sometimes? Gay men don't have distinctive birthmarks to show they are gay, and even if they did, how can you tell which ones are going to succeed in remaining celibate? Or are you going to kick them all out, whether they're faithfully celibate or not? Estimates I've read say you're talking upwards of 40 percent of the priesthood here.

Second, if you are going to discriminate against gay men who want to be priests, you'd better be prepared to lose 90 percent of the congregation. Both inside the Church and out, we've decided that being gay is neither perverse nor evil. The vast majority of Westerners, at least, believe that. That includes the vast majority of Catholics, who simply ignore what the Church teaches about sexuality. Catholics, for example, use birth control just as often as non-Catholics do. The only reason the Church gets away with a doctrine so much at odds with what the laity actually believe is that no one takes it seriously. If the Church actually started kicking priests out due to their sexual orientation (which even the Church itself says is an inborn trait, not a chosen one), it would face a revolt of the faithful in about two weeks flat.; 8/14/18, 6:17 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: Open Borders:

Allow illegal immigrants to enter your country, watch the crime rates increase.

FBI/DOJ:

Allow zealous leftists to flood the ranks, watch the flurry of bogus partisan prosecutions.

Catholic Church:

Allow gay men to become priests, watch the kids get molested, and the lawsuits take down the church.

Is this the pattern we are seeing?; 8/14/18, 6:17 PM
Humperdink said...: Jeff said: "Both inside the Church and out, we've decided that being gay is neither perverse nor evil."

We've decided? What does the Bible say about it?; 8/14/18, 6:23 PM
Paddy O said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 6:25 PM
buwaya said...: "Both inside the Church and out, we've decided that being gay is neither perverse nor evil. "

This must change. It is wrong.

"you'd better be prepared to lose 90 percent of the congregation."

Not that many of the congregation that's actually in the Church on Sunday.
Not that there are that many there on Sunday. Who would you lose?; 8/14/18, 6:26 PM
Roughcoat said...: Jeff:

I don't believe homosexuality is evil. I'm okay with it. I will admit that the idea of gay sex repulses me, but that's because I'm straight -- as Lady Gaga sang, "I was made that way." And I don't like "gay," I mean overt mincing gayness (FABULOUS!), but I'm okay being around men who act that way -- no harm, no foul.

That said ... I do believe that predatory homosexual priests who prey on adolescent priests are evil. But I have been quite consistent and meticulous in identifying such monsters as comprising a subculture within the larger homosexual "community" or whatever you want to call it.; 8/14/18, 6:26 PM
LincolnTf said...: Jeff, you are a fool.; 8/14/18, 6:26 PM
Roughcoat said...: And, yes, a start to fixing the problem is to forbid homosexuality in the priesthood. I don't want a homosexual priesthood. Men of good will who are also homosexuals should look for other non-priestly avenues to serve God.; 8/14/18, 6:34 PM
Mark said...: I blame the situation in part on Vatican II, which set the stage, as it were, for this to happen. I blame a a gay/homosexual subculture which could not and would not put reasonable boundaries on what was permissible. I blame the Church and its hierarchy.

Huge numbers of the abusers were pre-Vatican II priests, as were almost all of the dissenters of the 1960s, 70s, 80s.; 8/14/18, 6:40 PM
Roughcoat said...: If you have a homosexual priesthood or even if you allow homosexuality in the priesthood you will have problems with predatory homosexuals abusing adolescent boys. It's, the one will follow the other, just as it does (and not coincidentally) in the teaching professions.

As for the larger issue of whether homosexuality is wrong -- sorry, not going there. But homosexuals in the priesthood? No way, no how.; 8/14/18, 6:44 PM
Michael K said...: Jeff is obviously gay.

Second, if you are going to discriminate against gay men who want to be priests, you'd better be prepared to lose 90 percent of the congregation.

More the opposite, Jeff. When I was in high school we had a Christian Brother who was obviously gay and all the boys knew not to be alone in a classroom after school with him. He wasn't man enough to force himself on anyone but he would touch you and his hands were always on you.; 8/14/18, 6:44 PM
Michael K said...: Huge numbers of the abusers were pre-Vatican II priests,

Some were and they saw to it that gays were favored in seminaries. Read that book I linked to if you want facts.

Of course, I;'m not sure you do.; 8/14/18, 6:46 PM
readering said...: The Church survived the Reformation, which was brought on in part by clerical corruption (but also by doctrinal problems). There was a counter-reformation. This time I don't see a counter-reformation.; 8/14/18, 6:47 PM
n.n said...: Male homosexual orientation and expression is a sin, but not since God offered direct counsel to mortal judges, were there secular repercussions. What remains is a directive to strive, that is not limited to the transgendered. That said, in a scientific frame of reference, transgenderism is not known to be a progressive condition or contagion, and while it is not known to have a redeeming value to humanity or society and thus there is no cause to normalize the orientation and behavior, there is also no cause to reject it, so it can be reasonably tolerated. The transgendered orientation is separable in context, and the individual as a constellation of gendered and secular attributes, can be judged on the content of their character.; 8/14/18, 6:48 PM
Roughcoat said...: Mark: "Huge numbers of the abusers were pre-Vatican II priests, as were almost all of the dissenters of the 1960s, 70s, 80s."

True, to an extent. But Vatican II opened the Gates of Hell to it all. It weakened the moral authority of the Church and the seminaries in consequence fell to the onslaught of the so-called lavender mafia. This happened POST Vatican II. Young homosexual men flocked to the seminaries after, I repeat AFTER, Vatican II and as a consequence of what is really inappropriately termed the "liberalizing" effects of MANY ASPECTS of Vatican II. (Vatican II wasn't ALL bad, IMO). The seminaries became dominated by young homosexual seminarians with the connivance of older homosexual priests. Young straight men left the seminaries in droves, disgusted by these developments. There are books and essays about this phenomenon, I believe one was cited above.; 8/14/18, 6:56 PM
n.n said...: The male homosexual orientation is a sin (i.e. immoral), and self-evidently a dysfunctional behavior (i.e. expressed orientation), as is the female homosexual orientation. But, so are many socially liberal orientations, and not all men and women, boys and girls, are self-moderating, responsible individuals all of the time. Case in point: friendship with "benefits" (e.g. promiscuity) and Pro-Choice (e.g. selective-child). That said, the problem in this context is the institutional "deep state", that persists and progresses the public dysfunction, and resists efforts to reform. An embedded faction that preys on the vulnerable, and suppresses the voices of others. Finally, a human being is defined by a constellation of orientations and behaviors. We (the Royal "we") are diverse.; 8/14/18, 7:01 PM
Jeff said...: I was raised a Catholic, though I have not been a believer in any religion for many years. But I do know what the Church teaches, and what I'm doing here is just pointing out the difficulties created by the celibacy requirement for priests. The rule of celibacy is an ecclesiastical law and not a doctrine. If the Pope thinks it is creating more problems in running the Church than it solves, he can change it. Opposition to abortion is doctrinal, and it can not, in principle, ever be changed.

Now on to answering some of my critics.

In a flash of brilliance, LincolnTf said "Jeff, you are a fool."
I am overwhelmed by the logical force of that argument.

@Humperdink, the Bible is not the authority for Catholics, the Catholic Catechism is. And it says that while a homosexual orientation is disordered, it does not mean that people who are so oriented are evil. It is a Cross they have to bear, a handicap, if you will. A homosexual who does not actually act on his orientation is not sinful. So far as I know, none of the major Protestant denominations teach that a homosexual orientation is evil, either. Your kind of thinking belongs to a different century.

@Roughcoat, I agree with you.

@Buwaya, what you say is not that different from what Humperdink says. You are just a bit more temperate. But you run into the same difficulty: The Church cannot act in contravention to it's own doctrine, and that doctrine is as I described it. Sure, they can crack down on pedophiles, but they've been doing that for centuries, and priests abusing altar boys is not a new phenomena. It's been going on for centuries. You're a realist about human nature. In centuries past, when parish priests were far more powerful and less accountable than they are now, do you really think there wasn't abuse happening then? Isn't it likely that we hear more about it these days because the priests have become less powerful?

@MichaelK, you should tell that to my wife, children and grandchildren. I'm sure they'd be astonished by your powers of perception. Really, I have treated you with respect here. Can you not do the same?; 8/14/18, 7:02 PM
Marc in Eugene said...: We Catholics who are orthodox in faith and careful in practice find ourselves in the (to the worldly way of looking at things, anyway) rather ironic position of looking to the Roman Pontiff to rid the College of Cardinals of those who've countenanced and covered up abusers and abuse (or are abusers themselves), to depose bishops guilty of those crimes... but of course the reigning Pope has his own peculiar relationship to Scripture and Tradition and the magisterium of his holy and venerable predecessors. For most of us, our options (beyond prayer, penance, fasting, the giving of alms and being otherwise charitable, and voicing our concerns with our bishops) are limited, although it is necessary in these sad circumstances to do the best we can to see that our monetary gifts go to worthy, and not unworthy, recipients. St Peter Damian, pray for us!; 8/14/18, 7:06 PM
LincolnTf said...: Jeff, you fool, you continue to conflate the actions of homosexual rapists with the Catholic doctrine. Try to understand why you sound so foolish.; 8/14/18, 7:06 PM
Jeff said...: @n.n. Male homosexual orientation and expression is a sin.

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, you're only half right. If you're a Catholic, you're one of the "cafeteria" variety. If you belong to some other Church, I'm curious as to which one teaches that homosexual orientation is itself a sin.; 8/14/18, 7:08 PM
Jeff said...: @LincolnTf, I continue to stand in awe of both your reading and logical abilities. Where have I defended pedophile priests? The point I've been making is that the celibacy rule is making the problem worse.; 8/14/18, 7:11 PM
LincolnTf said...: Celibacy is essential to Priesthood. If you don't want celibate Priests, you don't want Catholicism to exist. But gay guys who rape children while wearing fraudulent collars define the Institution? That is asinine. This is basic shit.; 8/14/18, 7:16 PM
n.n said...: Jeff:

Not orientation (i.e. bias) per se, but its expression, specifically between males.

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, you're only half right

Based on doctrinal or ecclesiastical provisions?

I have a different perspective, explained in a short comment above.; 8/14/18, 7:21 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: I'm not catholic and my opinion is nothing new. You don't like it? Tough. It's still my opinion.

The celibacy rule goes against how men were made.

Men are horn-dogs. Yeah - it's a pain but it's the natural law of things. Let the priests have sex/marry and perhaps they wouldn't pester children.

use a condom.; 8/14/18, 7:21 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: “Jeff, you fool, you continue to conflate the actions of homosexual rapists with the Catholic doctrine.”

How so? The rapists are responsible for their actions. The RC Church is responsible for the silence, the bullshit counseling, the meaningless transfers, all in the service of the cover-up. The homosexual predilections of some of the priests may account for their actions but it has fuck-all to do with the Church’s silence. I disagree with Jeff about the significance of celibacy, but it doesn’t speak to this issue either way.

Gotta hand it to the Catholic Church. It has repeatedly throughout it’s history tried to destroy itself and yet it staggers on.; 8/14/18, 7:22 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: "Celibacy is essential to Priesthood."

How do you figure that considering that the church existed for about a thousand years before celibacy became the official rule?; 8/14/18, 7:38 PM
Michael K said...: Celibacy is essential to Priesthood. If you don't want celibate Priests, you don't want Catholicism to exist.>

So, you want the Eastern Orthodox Church to go away ?; 8/14/18, 7:39 PM
Humperdink said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 7:41 PM
Michael K said...: MichaelK, you should tell that to my wife, children and grandchildren.

Would you like a list of gay married men I know ?

Maybe you just imagine you are.; 8/14/18, 7:41 PM
Michael K said...: "A homosexual who does not actually act on his orientation is not sinful."

I agree with that but that is not the issue being discussed.; 8/14/18, 7:42 PM
Humperdink said...: Jeff responded to me: "@Humperdink, the Bible is not the authority for Catholics, the Catholic Catechism is. And it says that while a homosexual orientation is disordered, it does not mean that people who are so oriented are evil. It is a Cross they have to bear, a handicap, if you will. A homosexual who does not actually act on his orientation is not sinful. So far as I know, none of the major Protestant denominations teach that a homosexual orientation is evil, either. Your kind of thinking belongs to a different century."

If the Bible is not the authority, then man is the authority. And men (and women) are fallen creatures. We are all sinners. All. Men and women need redemption and that only comes from one source - Jesus.; 8/14/18, 7:44 PM
Bad Lieutenant said...: If the Church actually started kicking priests out due to their sexual orientation (which even the Church itself says is an inborn trait, not a chosen one), it would face a revolt of the faithful in about two weeks flat.

If thy right eye offendeth thee... Naw, leave it in, otherwise you look funny and you can't see so good!

(Coincidentally, last year my mother had to make the charoses for the Seder, because Pamela died of cancer. It was in her eye. She refused to have it removed. Didn't work out so hot. They took it out later, too late.)

Where have I defended pedophile priests?

Just gays. The Venn diagram draws itself however.

Maybe the pedos are hiding behind them. Maybe the gays should police themselves. They solve that hostage problem one way in the movies, another in real life.; 8/14/18, 7:48 PM
Roughcoat said...: Jeff:

Minor quibble: in addition to the Catechism, we are guided by the teachings of the Church Fathers, the body of theological thought and inquiry built up through the ages by Catholic theologians (including, not least, various Popes), and the "dictates of an informed conscience." Catholic are not "Bible Christians" i.e. not Bible literalists. That said, I do think Catholics ought to read the Bible more often and would profit immensely from doing so. I read the Bible, the King James version, which may or may not be a mildly heretical act. But I love the language of the KJV and I'm sticking with it.

As to whether a ban on homosexuals in the priesthood would drive people from the Church -- I disagree. On the contrary, I think it would bring heterosexual men back to the Church, possibly in large numbers. I, for one, have had it up to here with metro-sexual and borderline-effeminate priests. I want manly men as priests and I suspect a lot of other heteros do too. Give us back a manly priesthood and we'll fill the pews for mass.; 8/14/18, 7:49 PM
Roughcoat said...: Gotta hand it to the Catholic Church. It has repeatedly throughout it’s history tried to destroy itself and yet it staggers on.

Well,it does have God on its side. So it's got that going for it ...; 8/14/18, 7:53 PM
Henry said...: Philly Enquirer story is more detailed and more horrifying.; 8/14/18, 7:58 PM
LincolnTf said...: As always, so many of you miss the fundament. The Church is not the building, nor the hierarchy. The Church is the people. The people loathe what has been done by gay rapists.; 8/14/18, 7:59 PM
tcrosse said...: Jesus wept.; 8/14/18, 7:59 PM
rcocean said...: The fact that Priests are molesting girls doesn't seem to be much of an argument for non-celibacy.

Eastern Orthodox allows Priests to marry. Does that have any impact on the Child Molestation?; 8/14/18, 8:00 PM
rcocean said...: BTW, Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that what Lawyer Shapiro and his Grand Jury say is true.

Paint me skeptical.

BTW, BTW, I'm waiting for the Boston Globe to do a "Spotlight" investigation of child molesters in Hollywood.

Waiting...Waiting....; 8/14/18, 8:02 PM
Jim Gust said...: I'm with Inga on the value of the movie "Spotlight." I knew all about Bernard Law, but I had no idea that the laity was in on the coverup. I admit it feels strange for me to agree with Inga.

If the Catholic Church does not abandon the celibacy nonsense, they will be gone in the USA in another generation. I would demand that a man be married *before* he is eligible for the priesthood, because only in that way can he understand and minister to the parish.

I'd also permit married women to enter the priesthood. My mother might be horrified.; 8/14/18, 8:02 PM
Humperdink said...: Jeff said: "So far as I know, none of the major Protestant denominations teach that a homosexual orientation is evil, either."

Which is why they are shriveling up. And .... and they are all pro-abort. Whoda thunk it?

Jeff said: "Your kind of thinking belongs to a different century."

Lefties are at least consistent - they say the same thing about our outdated constitution.; 8/14/18, 8:05 PM
Roughcoat said...: Eastern Orthodox allows Priests to marry. Does that have any impact on the Child Molestation?

That's a good question. Wonder if there are any studies on the issue?

If there is less abuse, I suspect a big part of the reason would be the character of he societies most associated with the Eastern Church. What I mean is, if a parish priest in a remote Serbian mountain town was found to have been making advances on the town's adolescent boys, I rather think his chances at survival would very quickly drop to nil. He might even be torn limb from limb and his body parts dumped down a well.; 8/14/18, 8:10 PM
LincolnTf said...: You know what belongs in a different Century? A choad who is not content to choose his own Religious traditions, but insists that other's change theirs. What kind of backward shitbag thinks like that?; 8/14/18, 8:11 PM
Jeff said...: @Humperdink,

Spoken like a true Protestant. But what we are talking about here is Catholicism. Catholics do not believe that the Bible is the sole source of authoritative teaching. For one thing, it is an historical fact that the Church itself is, if not the author, at least the editor, of the Bible. By that I mean that, in the very early years of the Church, there was some disagreement about which existing books were part of the canon, and which were less important. According to Wikipedia, this was a gradual process and one about which not very much is known. It is known that St. Augustine late in the fifth century listed the canonical books of the Bible and that list changed very little after his time. But Augustine himself does not claim his list is newly definitive, he seems to indicate that the matter had been previously settled.

But my point is that there were a lot of writings claiming to be holy, and somebody had to decide which books made the cut for inclusion into the canon and which did not. Similarly, there have been numerous disagreements about doctrines and/or the meaning of some Biblical passages, and somebody had to decide what the doctrine was. Some books required translations, and when there were competing translations, someone had to choose between them. Fundamentalist Protestants tend to ignore the historical fact that the Bible didn't just spring miraculously into being one blessed day -- various Church authorities at various times had to make a lot of editorial decisions.

So the Catholic Church says the Bible is the source for a lot of its teaching, but it is not the only source. Tradition and the writings of various Popes, saints, bishops and others are also sources.; 8/14/18, 8:13 PM
Roughcoat said...: I'm waiting for the Boston Globe to do a "Spotlight" investigation of child molesters in Hollywood.

Talking to Corey Feldman would be a good place to start.; 8/14/18, 8:13 PM
Marc in Eugene said...: Jeff, I don't like to engage in discussions of religion online and particularly in such unpleasant circumstances, but your assertion that "the Bible is not the authority for Catholics, the Catholic Catechism is" begs correction, or emendation at the very least.

Christ Our Lord in His own Person reveals the truth of and about God to us, and has left us two 'modes' by which to be certain of that Revelation, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The theological question of 'the sources of Revelation' was resolved (how successfully I'm not competent to say) in the Second Vatican Council's Dei Verbum (which nn 80-83 of the Catechism cite) in this way, by altering the terms of the historical debate to affirm that Christ is the Source with Scripture and Tradition being the 'two modes of transmission of Revelation'.

The contemporary Catechism, like its predecessor the Catechism proposed after the Council of Trent, are sure and certain witnesses, as it were, of the truths of the Faith-- they are not in themselves 'the authority' under which the Church and Her ministers and faithful live.; 8/14/18, 8:15 PM
Mark said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 8:16 PM
Mark said...: Those Catholics and their clergy are the worst.

If only they were without sin like the Episcopalians or Baptists or Lutherans or Evangelicals or Presbyterians or Methodists or Orthodox or Muslims or Hindus or Jews or atheists or whatever hate cult the bigots believe in -- none of whom have ever committed sexual abuse. If only Catholic clergy could be more like public school teachers or politicians or college professors or sports coaches or Hollywood producers or actors or leftists or Libertarians or Democrats or Republicans, who have all been totally pure.; 8/14/18, 8:18 PM
Darrell said...: Celibacy is not the problem.

Most Catholic parishes are struggling financially now and have been for decades. The Diocese fixes the problem by taking money away from financially stable parishes and sending it to those struggling. The result is that everyone is on the brink and parishioners are pressured to give more and more and more.

Now imagine married priests with six children. You can't deny their children cars when they get their license, can you? And college? All the kids near Chicago will want to go to Notre Dame or Loyola. What's that going to cost? The priest's poverty-line salary isn't going to cut it. And many parishioners are already at the extreme edge of their charitable giving. And they have their own kids to think about.

People will stop showing up to Church like never before.; 8/14/18, 8:22 PM
Humperdink said...: Jeff said: "Spoken like a true Protestant."

Sorry Jeff, I am a believer, not a protestant.; 8/14/18, 8:23 PM
Roughcoat said...: Marc:

Which Bible? In which language? Which translation? You know that translation is an art not a science and that meanings can and do change from one translation to the next, from one version to the next in the same language. Hast given the horse his strength, hast thou given the horse his thunder? Or have you given the horse his might, have you clothed his neck in mane?

Or "Έχετε δώσει τη δύναμη του αλόγου; Έχεις ντύσει το λαιμό του με τα μάτια?

And etc.; 8/14/18, 8:27 PM
Jeff said...: "You know what belongs in a different Century? A choad who is not content to choose his own Religious traditions, but insists that other's change theirs. What kind of backward shitbag thinks like that?"

You do. I've been pointing out to you that Catholic teaching is not what you think it is, and you're claiming that I'm wrong about doctrine and apparently in favor of raping children. Stop and think for a minute. How likely is that?

The celibacy rule is a tradition, true enough, but that alone does not actually make it authoritative in the Catholic Church. What does make it authoritative is that the Pope decrees it. He has that authority. But he also has the authority to change it. Some commenters above have pointed out occasions when the Church has made exceptions. The Pope can do that, too. It's essentially an administrative rule, one that can be changed if it is now found to be doing more harm than good. I'm making the case that it is. I'm not defending rapists. I'm saying that doing away with the celibacy rule will result in better priests.; 8/14/18, 8:28 PM
Earnest Prole said...: A priest, a rabbi, and a monk are on a boat that has just capsized. The monk yells "We must save the children!" The rabbi replies "Fuck the children!" The priest asks "Do we have time?"; 8/14/18, 8:33 PM
Jeff said...: Roughcoat, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I would only point out that most of the push within the Church to make it more accepting of gays has come from the families of gay people, particularly their parents. I put it to you that telling a loving parent that his or her son was born evil and must be excluded from the Church or from the priesthood for that reason, and not because of anything he did or didn't do, is a good way to drive that parent right out of your Church.

And no, MichaelK, this is not something that happened to me. Me and my well-adjusted offspring are all fertile heterosexuals. I think that after 60 years on this Earth, I probably know better than you do what my own sexual orientation is. You would never diagnose one of your many patients without knowing much more about him than you actually know about me, so why
this urge to remotely psycho-analyze me? Just because I had the temerity to disagree with you about something? You're better than that.; 8/14/18, 8:42 PM
Roughcoat said...: I put it to you that telling a loving parent that his or her son was born evil...

Stop right there. I thought I was clear about this. I said above that I do not believe that homosexuality and homosexuals are evil. So, I would not tell a loving parent that their son was born evil much less that he must be excluded from the Church. I did say that homosexuals should be excluded from the priesthood, not because they're evil, but because there would be problems with predatory homosexuals who are certainly evil and who would inevitably show up and whose actions would have a harmful, even destructive, impact on the Church. It's not fair to the majority of homosexuals who are not predators but life isn't fair. Let them find others ways to be involved in the Church.

Also, I don't believe that anyone is "born evil." We are born with original sin, which is not the same, in fact far different, from being born evil.; 8/14/18, 8:53 PM
Michael K said...: why this urge to remotely psycho-analyze me?

No just responding to your risible comments on gays.

You obviously understand nothing about the Catholic Church.If parents, like Ann for example, are agitating to get the Church to accept gay priests, that is 1% of the population, no matter what the left says.

I practiced in Laguna Beach for 30 years. I suspect I know as many gays as you do, or did before so many died of AIDS.

I even had as patients the two brothers who owned the most popular gay bar in Laguna. They sold out and left for Hawaii early in the epidemic. A wise move.

Two good friends of mine, both physicians, died of AIDS early in the epidemic because of their lifestyle.

A friend of mine, an anesthesiologist, went to an OR party and got interested in a young Asian boy who was a guest of an employee. He showed up at the kid's work and scared the hell out of him.

They like Asian boys because of little body hair. There are some who do like hairy boys, like Andrew Sullivan.; 8/14/18, 9:01 PM
Michael K said...: I put it to you that telling a loving parent that his or her son was born evil...

Stop right there. I thought I was clear about this.

"Jeff" is using a typical leftist ploy.; 8/14/18, 9:02 PM
wildswan said...: Roughcoat said...
n.n. is correct.

The Catholic Church has its own version of the Deep State. It is leftist, dominated or heavily influenced by homosexual/pedophile priests, and it is evil.

Lots of prolife men entered seminaries in the Eighties and Nineties. In certain seminaries, observing open homosexuality they went to the person in charge of the seminary and complained. These men were all kicked out of these corrupt seminaries, "no vocation". When they reported back to their family and friends, said family and friends alerted everyone they knew including reporters in Catholic newspapers, other priests,seminary rectors, canon lawyers, bishops and the papal nuncio. These reports were all thrown in the trash by chancery staff. From these seminaries came the corrupt priests and the system of trashing reports from parishioners which the report on the Pennsylvania diocese is describing. Things got worse and worse and finally the secular arm exposed the problem. Meanwhile, after the fall of Communism displaced communist activists entered the church in lay positions of power and as priests with mistresses. So as gays leave some chanceries, communists (one sign is they are abortion supporters) take their place in others.

The problems caused by these two corrupt groups are usually presented as problems caused by faithful Catholics who, back in the day, tried to expose the expose the problem.

So why stick it out? I often think of these words:
Jesus said unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him:
Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

I realize this doesn't explain. When it comes to abortion I can try for a secular explanation. But true religion doesn't have a secular explanation.; 8/14/18, 9:08 PM
narciso said...: Sin is not meeting God's standards, now we are all sinners however evil is habitual practice of a certain behavior.; 8/14/18, 9:09 PM
Mark said...: Sin is not meeting God's standards

Many believe it is all about rules and standards, but that is not what sin is, at least not as the Church understands. Sin is not about not meeting God's standards, but about not meeting God. Sin is acting inconsistent with and contrary to God, it is thinking, acting, doing, being separate from God.

The word "sin" is from the German which means "to sunder," to separate.

It is about standards only insofar as God's standard is God Himself.; 8/14/18, 9:18 PM
Roughcoat said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/14/18, 9:18 PM
Mark said...: And since God is Love, sin is acting contrary to love. And since God is Truth, sin is acting contrary to truth.; 8/14/18, 9:19 PM
Mark said...: And since God is Life, to be contrary to God is to be contrary to life, i.e. to be in sin is to be in death.; 8/14/18, 9:20 PM
narciso said...: Well that's shorthand, it is only by God's grace that entry into his family is conceded, but we have forgotten we are not fighting against man 'But principalities and powers of the air'; 8/14/18, 9:21 PM
Marc in Eugene said...: Roughcoat, My first attempt at a response would be, that is perhaps one of the reasons why Scripture and Tradition are considered to be how Christ's Revelation comes to us. The written word, inspired though it be, has inherent limitations in a way that the Incarnate Word does not. The magisterium, the authoritative teaching of the Church through history proposed by the Apostles and their successors the bishops, guards Revelation as it exists in Scripture and Tradition while trying to make it comprehensible and accessible to so many different peoples and cultures in such different times: but it is bound by the givens of Scripture and Tradition.

I'll stick with St Jerome or the Septuagint ('ἦ σὺ περιέθηκας ἵππῳ δύναμιν ἐνέδυσας δὲ τραχήλῳ αὐτοῦ φόβον...') myself. We have a great degree of liberty in such matters, after all.; 8/14/18, 9:28 PM
Michael K said...: The monk yells "We must save the children!" The rabbi replies "Fuck the children!" The priest asks "Do we have time?"

I heard a similar joke from Richard Lillehei, a professor of Surgery at Minnesota, about Finns. I guess Swedes make jokes about Finns.; 8/14/18, 9:53 PM
n.n said...: Sin is as in "original sin" a potential, not kinetic transgression or deviation. I wonder where sexual abuse, indoctrination, corruption of adolescent and prepubescent children fits. Is there a living threshold of viability? Is the former or latter an intrinsic orientation of transgenders? Is the former or latter an intrinsic orientation of males and females? Is its expression self-moderated and excluded by responsible individuals? Is it indulged and included by irresponsible individuals? Opinions vary, but there is a prevailing consensus.; 8/14/18, 10:24 PM
Howard said...: Blogger Michael K said...
Jeff is obviously gay.
At USC med school, they have a diagnosis test based on a head-shot. Mustache = AIDs

Nice cookie duster, Doc; 8/14/18, 10:36 PM
traditionalguy said...: When the mother and father ( I mean the actual father) reverence and adore the magic Priest who brings them God in wafers inserted into their mouths and they believe there is no other way to please god and go to haven, then those children serving those same old farts are gonna take whatever the old farts tell them God wants them to eat.

It has been 450 years since the Reformation. Somebody needs to rescue the Catholics captives. Apparently civil damages making them poor are ALL that these fake fathers really fear, because they are still fighting to the end all Legislative attempts to extend the secular court's statutes of Limitations on their acts.; 8/14/18, 10:39 PM
traditionalguy said...: When the mother and father ( I mean the actual father) reverence and adore the magic Priest who brings them God in wafers inserted into their mouths and they believe there is no other way to please god and go to haven, then those children serving those same old farts are gonna take whatever the old farts tell them God wants them to eat.

It has been 450 years since the Reformation. Somebody needs to rescue the Catholics captives. Apparently civil damages making them poor are ALL that these fake fathers really fear, because they are still fighting to the end all Legislative attempts to extend the secular court's statutes of Limitations on their acts.; 8/14/18, 10:40 PM
Mark said...: We all got your hateful bigotry the first time -- years ago -- hateguy. Now you are just being tediously boring.; 8/14/18, 10:43 PM
Jason said...: Jeff: "Your kind of thinking belongs to a different century."

NOW you're catching on!; 8/14/18, 10:45 PM
MadisonMan said...: So, either Pennsylvania is 180 degrees different from Northern California, or we're not hearing the "rest of the story

It was my understanding that the PA cases -- many of them -- are decades old.; 8/14/18, 10:50 PM
Jeff said...: You can't deny their children cars when they get their license, can you? And college?
Sure I can. All three of my kids bought their own cars, and they all paid their own way through four years at good universities. I did one PLUS loan for my second daughter which she repaid within two years of her graduation. Her older sister worked first at restaurants and later for the county permitting office while she went to school. She graduated with a small debt and paid it off in short order. Their brother enlisted in the National Guard, which paid his tuition and enough money to make it through college with zero debt. A year after he graduated, he got called to active duty for about 15 months when his unit was deployed to Kosovo, but his defense contractor employer kept paying him while he served, so when he came home from Kosovo at the ripe old age of 24, he had six figures in the bank and was ready to marry his college sweetheart and buy a house.; 8/14/18, 11:22 PM
Jeff said...: OK, Roughcoat, I can understand your position. But since estimates are that up to 40 percent of the priesthood is gay (including all the gay priests who aren't breaking the celibacy rule), tell me how you're going to replace 40 percent of the priesthood.

The Church is already having to import priests from third world countries to fill the parish slots in the U.S. So you get priests who not only know little about the lived experience of their married parishioners, they also don't know anything about what it's like to grow up here, to go to school here, to work here, or any of that. All they can do when a parishioner comes to them for help is mumble a few spiritual platitudes because their backgrounds are so different from that of their parishioners that they don't understand them. And even with all the foreign priests there are still parishes having to merge into other parishes and/or cancel services because there are not enough priests.

So sure, go right ahead and fire 40 percent of them.

Please don't tell me that all you have to do is get rid of all the gay priests and suddenly the seminaries will be flooded with bright young heterosexual men eager to swear off sex for a life of poverty. That's insane. If there were all these men beating down the doors of the seminaries, the Church wouldn't have had to accept all the gay men they trained over the past several decades.

I suspect the reason there are so few men volunteering to become priests today is that, due to increasing opportunities for young men over the years, becoming a priest today means you're sacrificing quite a bit more than seminarians sacrificed 60 years ago. It was only about 50 years ago that it became possible for almost any reasonably intelligent young man to get a college education and the career that came with it. And just as an economist would predict, religious vocations began tanking.; 8/14/18, 11:49 PM
The Vault Dweller said...: I doubt there were actually hundreds of predator priests. Dozens I can believe. But not hundreds. Hundreds would be orders of magnitude greater rates than in the society at large. If that is the allegation there needs to be a decent allegation as to why it is orders of magnitude higher.; 8/15/18, 12:08 AM
Ralph L said...: The allegations stretch back to the 1940s, detailing child rapes and groping

That's 2 reasons there are so many: length of time and breadth of offenses.; 8/15/18, 12:17 AM
Ralph L said...: Openly gay priests (and the necessary fudging) haven't done the Episcopal Church much good.; 8/15/18, 12:23 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: I could've told you guys all about this if I'd known it was the kind of thing you were interested in. Nobody's interested in cultism, usually, except to bash my interest, so I had no idea.

Catholic priests. Yep:

They like them kids.; 8/15/18, 12:32 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: The Vault Dweller said...

"I doubt there were actually hundreds of predator priests. Dozens I can believe. But not hundreds. Hundreds would be orders of magnitude greater rates than in the society at large. If that is the allegation there needs to be a decent allegation as to why it is orders of magnitude higher."

Because no one suspects priests.; 8/15/18, 12:34 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Everyone says NewAgers are "flaky" and "harmless", too. It's the greatest cover - practically created by the potential victims - because it's they who push the lie for their abusers (Cultists don't say "I'm harmless" but ask their marks, "What's the harm?" The marks do all the rest, using their unique form of "logic.")

Wiping out the guilty, as potential suspects, leaves only the innocent to be abused - by everyone.; 8/15/18, 12:45 AM
The Vault Dweller said...: "Because no one suspects priests."

Pedophilia doesn't strike me as a crime of opportunity. I could imagine a huge increase car stereo theft if all the sudden all car alarms went away and no one investigated strange noises in the night. But merely having the opportunity to abuse a child doesn't seem like it would make many people more likely to abuse a child.; 8/15/18, 1:02 AM
PaoloP said...: Frankly, it seems very strange. Hundreds of priests involved in pedophilia in a single diocese and nobody knew anything?; 8/15/18, 1:36 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: The Vault Dweller said...

"Merely having the opportunity to abuse a child doesn't seem like it would make many people more likely to abuse a child."

I grew up in foster care. You'd be surprised. Hell, it makes people, elsewhere in society, do everything else - adultery, theft, you name it. No opportunity, no crime.

Human nature's a frightening thing.; 8/15/18, 2:18 AM
Humperdink said...: What's interesting to me is that some people think this is isolated to Pennsylvania.; 8/15/18, 5:18 AM
joshbraid said...: I read through the comments and have read over in-depth analysis of the report from PA.
I see lots of opinion here and few facts.
Is the apparent rate of known pedophilia in the Roman Catholic clergy any higher than any other institution that deals with kids (I have read it is statistically normal)?
Is there such a report about public school teachers (re: Glenn Reynolds, teach women not to rape)?

The problem here, as others have noted, is the coverup of at least the tolerance (if not acceptance in some cases) of mostly pederasty and some pedophilia by those in authority over the offenders. And, there are some implications of cooperation with the pederasty by those in authority. This is the dramatic news in the report.; 8/15/18, 8:17 AM
Marc in Eugene said...: Yes, joshbraid, that is what makes me most angry about all of this, apart from the abuse itself, sins crying to Heaven for vengeance: the bishops who have misused their apostolic authority to countenance and conceal the crimes of others. They-- the ones still alive-- need to be deposed from their sees, offices, and honors, and convicted of their crimes in the civil courts so far as this is possible. Haven't been able to read beyond the first hundred or so of the entire miserable shameful thousand pages.; 8/15/18, 8:28 AM
joshbraid said...: I focus on the enabling by bishops because with sexual abuse of minors, it is the enablers who hold much of the power. I also condemn those who enable the sexual abuse of minors by school teachers, doctors, etc.. From what I see in most press accounts, the emphasis is usually focused only on the perpetrator. Unless we expand our frame to condemn and prosecute enablers and perpetrators alike, we will not change the culture of abuse. It is the enablers that allow the perpetrator to continue his or her crimes against children.; 8/15/18, 8:56 AM
Jupiter said...: The Vault Dweller said...
"But merely having the opportunity to abuse a child doesn't seem like it would make many people more likely to abuse a child."

No, but if fucking boys is what you want to do, then you might be inclined to sign-up at BoyFuck U, mightn't you? And when you graduated, you would be a spiritual leader. As Jeff reminds us, we are talking about The Catholic Church here. Although he doesn't seem to be able to make his mind up whether it is the House Of God, or some kind of social club that needs a membership drive.

Just remember, if you say bad things about BoyFuck U, you're a bigot.; 8/15/18, 11:15 AM
Jupiter said...: Jeff said...
"Both inside the Church and out, we've decided that being gay is neither perverse nor evil."

A word with ye, lad. The word is "perverse". To pervert something is to turn it to a use other than that for which it was intended. Thus the idea of "sexual perversion" is that sex has a purpose, and any use of sex that is not directed toward that purpose is perverse. Now, it may well be that "we" have decided that neither sex nor anything else has a purpose, in which case nothing can be perverse. But you don't get to decide that for the rest of us just because you are a member in good standing of BoyFuck U. Spread that on your magic toast.; 8/15/18, 11:22 AM
Jim at said...: If the Church actually started kicking priests out due to their sexual orientation (which even the Church itself says is an inborn trait, not a chosen one), it would face a revolt of the faithful in about two weeks flat. - Jeff

I see. Thousands of young boys molested by priests? Not a problem.
Kicking out said molesting priests? A full revolt. In two weeks flat.

Born and raised a Catholic. First eight years of schooling.
Left that mess a long, long time ago ... thanks, precisely, to people like Jeff.; 8/15/18, 4:56 PM
Jeff said...: Jim, what you're advocating is throwing out priests who haven't done anything wrong along with the ones who have. If you say that it's not wrong to have a homosexual orientation so long as you don't act on it, but then you say that even if you haven't acted on it we're going to throw you out of the priesthood, most people are going to think that's unfair. And the only real effect will be that many gay priests will just lie about it, or lie to themselves about it and then lie to the bishops. If a priest doesn't tell you he's gay, and he hasn't actually done anything gay that you know of, how are you going to know? Gaydar is not that reliable.; 8/16/18, 8:25 PM