Althouse: "Parents of a New Jersey sixth grader who killed herself last year after months of bullying sued school officials this week..."

June 22, 2018

"Parents of a New Jersey sixth grader who killed herself last year after months of bullying sued school officials this week..."

"... stating that the school failed to take their repeated complaints seriously... At one point, the school asked Mallory and her bullies to 'hug each other,”' according to the lawsuit. When Mallory was bullied at lunch, the suit says, the school directed her to eat in a counselor’s office. Hours before Mallory’s suicide on June 14, 2017, at a meeting about the bullying, her principal handed Mallory a poker chip and asked her to inscribe her initials and the date on it, and used a poker metaphor to address the situation, according to the lawsuit. 'Are you all in?' the principal asked Mallory, according to Ms. Grossman. 'There is this attack on the victim to suck it up,' Ms. Grossman said. 'I knew they weren’t taking it seriously.'... She wanted help, but she didn’t want to draw attention.... She didn’t want to be labeled a tattletale.'"

From "Sixth Grader’s Parents Say School Didn’t Do Enough to Stop Her Suicide" (NYT).

153 comments:

MadisonMan said...: Middle School. Nightmare.

The principal seems pretty clueless in how to deal with things like this, although I think the article is likely written to be sympathetic -- with good reason -- to the dead kid.; 6/22/18, 10:34 AM
n.n said...: Self-abortion is one possible outcome. The other is retributive change as happened in Florida recently. School choice, including online schools, is one way to address this problem. However, a bullying orientation begins at home and is a progressive condition if not confronted.; 6/22/18, 10:35 AM
Seeing Red said...: Thank you feminists. You raised them.; 6/22/18, 10:38 AM
Nonapod said...: Mallory, had repeatedly received negative texts and Snapchat messages from other students during her first year at Copeland Middle School in Rockaway Township. Some of the messages berated her by saying she had no friends, and others asked her when she would kill herself, the lawsuit says.

At least in my day bullies had to look you in the eye. I'm so thankful I didn't grow up in the era of smart phones, texting, and social media.; 6/22/18, 10:40 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Most, if not all of the schools in NJ have access to a school psychologist. Although, in my experience, they are pretty useless. Their sole purpose seems to be to get the child "classified" so that the school gets more funding from Trenton.; 6/22/18, 10:42 AM
gspencer said...: Another set of parents qua citizens about to learn the hard and hard-to-believe concept of qualified immunity owned by public officials.; 6/22/18, 10:42 AM
TreeJoe said...: Punishment and reward lead to behavior.

The bullies got a reward out of how they acted and never felt punished. Their behavior continued.

The student never got a reward out of asking for help and only felt further punished. Her behavior changed accordingly.

I'm very much against litigation on the basis of "Well this happened on your watch and I blame you.".....but this seems pretty well founded.; 6/22/18, 10:44 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Public schools are wonderful places. Filled with bullies, would be shooters, and David Hoggs.; 6/22/18, 10:52 AM
traditionalguy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 10:52 AM
traditionalguy said...: The disaster in public schools comes 100% from adopting a Labor Union attitude that School Administrators are to be protected first, second, and forever. That results in all problems being the students. They then punish all of the students the same because they are all part of the problem. That does send a strong signal that the students are on their own and need to go away and die.; 6/22/18, 10:53 AM
mockturtle said...: While the social media exacerbate the situation, bullying is not new. Anyone who has seen The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie can get an idea of what young girls are capable of. A close friend of mine went to such a boarding school in the UK and told me horror stories about the dangerous liaisons and the rife meanness that went on [in other words, they were no different from boys' schools]. Children who are home-schooled are often more mature for being around adults more and peers less but dealing with bullies is an age-old challenge of childhood. Unfortunately, when school is the center of a child's life, its slings and arrows are the more painful and sometimes deadly. A?d, IMO, smart phones and the internet should be off limits to those under 18. Radical, yes, but do we care about our children enough?; 6/22/18, 10:59 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "At least in my day bullies had to look you in the eye. I'm so thankful I didn't grow up in the era of smart phones, texting, and social media."

Back in my day we had slam books.

Also, there was always just plain old talking behind your back as well as phone calls and written notes all the time.

But look up "slam book" if you don't know what it is.

And you don't need any statements getting back to you to know that other kids don't like you. Kids know when they aren't liked, and it's painful whether they hear specific remarks or just have to torture themselves by imagining what's being said and why they are not liked.; 6/22/18, 11:00 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Some of the bullied outcasts become school shooters. Then, no one sympathizes.; 6/22/18, 11:00 AM
David Docetad said...: The combination of large schools and smart phone technology is toxic. As a homeschooler, I'm always amazed when people ask "but what about socialization?" (never mind the fact we don't live on a remote desert island). Because this is what kind of socialization is happening, even if it does not always end in death. We held off getting our oldest a cell phone until she was 16. Despite being homeschooled, she plays on a local high school sports team. The team uses a group text for scheduling. You would not believe what gets said in the texts by students and even coaches.; 6/22/18, 11:01 AM
Gahrie said...: Some of the bullied outcasts become school shooters. Then, no one sympathizes.

That's because most of us believe that being bullied does not justify shooting up your school and classmates.; 6/22/18, 11:03 AM
David Docetad said...: There is a reason that schools today are architecturally indistinguishable from prisons.; 6/22/18, 11:05 AM
David Docetad said...: I always thought it was a little extreme to say that is it child abuse to send your kid to public (and increasingly private) school, but I'm not so sure anymore.; 6/22/18, 11:07 AM
dreams said...: Ultimately everyone has to find some way to deal with their situation, however bad. They have to find some inner strength, they have to develop some toughness. Sometimes we measure up and sometimes we don't but if you don't keep trying, I guess you maybe eventually commit suicide.; 6/22/18, 11:12 AM
Jupiter said...: Psychiatric emergencies and youth suicides rise sharply with the school year.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201805/children-s-teens-suicides-related-the-school-calendar; 6/22/18, 11:14 AM
Jupiter said...: Gahrie said...

"That's because most of us believe that being bullied does not justify shooting up your school and classmates."

You say that because you work in a youth prison, and you don't think you deserve to be shot for it. But do you think slaves have a right to revolt?; 6/22/18, 11:16 AM
dreams said...: I grew up in a better time, the fifties and I got into a lot of schoolyard fights but it was innocent kid stuff.; 6/22/18, 11:18 AM
eric said...: I don't see how anyone could blame the school.

She killed herself. The school principal didn't kill her.

When I was younger, I was bullied. It taught me how to deal with bullies. In junior high, there was a boy who was severely bullied. Looking back now, I think he was probably autistic. But back then we just thought he was weird. He ran as fast as he could from class to class. Kids would spit on him, laugh at him, and beat him up, all because he was weird.

I felt so bad for him I walked to his house one day after school. I tried to make friends with him. Although, I did this in secret because I was afraid of what other kids would think of me. He didn't communicate like other kids and I couldn't figure out how to be his friend. He was just too different and I was just a kid.

Eventually I went back to his house and told his dad about how terrible he was being treated at school.

I never saw him again. I'd like to hope his parents pulled him out of school and got him some help.

Now I have a son almost exactly like that boy from my childhood.; 6/22/18, 11:20 AM
Fernandinande said...: According to this page, she owes society $1,536,919.48.

The CDC says the teen girl suicide rate is pretty close to flat from 1975 to 2015.

Watch the MSM use the years 1986 (NPR) and 2007 (Time) as misleading reference points.; 6/22/18, 11:20 AM
Jupiter said...: mockturtle said...
"Children who are home-schooled are often more mature for being around adults more and peers less but dealing with bullies is an age-old challenge of childhood. Unfortunately, when school is the center of a child's life, its slings and arrows are the more painful and sometimes deadly."

Exactly. I well remember waking up to the radio every morning in seventh grade. The Kinks, or the Beach Boys, or the Beatles. Perhaps some gentle half-recollection of my last dream. Then the piercing, agonizing, terrifying realization that I had to get out of bed and go to Thomas Jefferson Junior High School, where I would have to be constantly alert for attacks from boys larger and stronger than me who did not share my idealistic commitment to pacifism.

Many years later, my wife became friends with one of the teachers there. She said that the administrators allowed the older boys to bully me because I was a smart-ass. They thought it served me right. I'd cheerfully shoot those bastards, Gahrie, and light a cigarette while I watched them bleed out on their office floors. She's called "Justice", and she carries a sword.; 6/22/18, 11:25 AM
Fernandinande said...: Oh! Oh! Time is concerned about girls' suicide rate, which is only about 1/4 the boys' rate. Because of systemic institutional sexism, lack of role models and stereotype threat, no doubt.; 6/22/18, 11:26 AM
Jim Gust said...: You might want to look up Jordan Peterson's recent response to someone thinking about suicide.; 6/22/18, 11:33 AM
Jupiter said...: "For boys, the suicide rate was, on average, 95% higher during the school months than during summer vacation; for girls, it was only 33% higher. This finding is consistent with the general observation that boys have a more difficult time adjusting to the constraints of school than do girls. Stated differently, when girls commit suicide, school is apparently less likely to be a cause than is the case for boys.

Hansen and Lang also found that the school-year increase in teen suicide rate held only for those of school age. For 18-year-olds, most of whom would be finished with high school, the increase was barely present, and for 19- and 20-year-olds it had vanished."

Sending kids to school isn't child abuse. It's attempted murder.; 6/22/18, 11:39 AM
Robert Cook said...: "I don't see how anyone could blame the school.

"She killed herself. The school principal didn't kill her."

Parents entrust their children to schools to be educated, but the schools have an obligation to keep the children safe while in their care. Teachers or school administrators who see or learn of bullying have an obligation to stop it by punishing the bullies, however severely is necessary, up to and including expulsion. The school principal is complicit because he failed to punish the bullies.

Schools who allow bullying to continue should be sued.; 6/22/18, 11:41 AM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “Then the piercing, agonizing, terrifying realization that I had to get out of bed and go to Thomas Jefferson Junior High School, where I would have to be constantly alert for attacks from boys larger and stronger than me who did not share my idealistic commitment to pacifism. She said that the administrators allowed the older boys to bully me because I was a smart-ass. They thought it served me right.”

Ah, that makes sense. You often present yourself in a bulling manner when you address me. So you learned nothing from your experience of being bullied? I’ll keep your sad teen years in mind when I respond to your agressive nasty comments directed to me in future.; 6/22/18, 11:41 AM
Achilles said...: This family should have had other options for where to put their kid in school.

If they had school choice their kid would be alive today.

This is 100% on leftists teachers unions and public school monopolies.; 6/22/18, 11:43 AM
Achilles said...: This bullying is systemic.

It happens in numerous situations in country.

It is government supported and funded.; 6/22/18, 11:51 AM
Seeing Red said...: BS Inga, didn’t you live in a refugee camp for a time? Your father should have moved your family out when he had the chance to move to Canada instead of waiting to get here.; 6/22/18, 11:51 AM
Seeing Red said...: It is government supported and funded.

Let’s send them all to public school, what could go wrong?

There’s a new argument for school choice, but it happens in private schools, too. Look at our colleges.; 6/22/18, 11:52 AM
Achilles said...: Toxic masculinity being taught in kindergarten

The left controls the public schools.

It is creating the environment it wants to create.; 6/22/18, 11:56 AM
Alex said...: Gahrie said...
Some of the bullied outcasts become school shooters. Then, no one sympathizes.

That's because most of us believe that being bullied does not justify shooting up your school and classmates.

Naive as fuck, or just evil? No doubt you'd force this girl to hug her tormentors out of sadistic pleasure.; 6/22/18, 11:57 AM
Achilles said...: Fonda’s deleted tweet about Nielsen read:

“Kristjen Nielsen is a lying gash that should be put in a cage and poked at by passersby. The gash should be pilloried in Lafayette Square naked and whipped by passersby while being filmed for posterity.”

The left fosters this environment at every level.; 6/22/18, 12:00 PM
Eleanor said...: We should stop schooling kids in mass groups by 6th grade. By that time they can read and do basic math. Turn them back to their parents' care. Whatever educational path the kids follow from that time on, the responsibility for the child's behavior belongs to the parent. If you have a nice kid who can handle working in a group, set up a small neighorhood school for other kids like him or her. If your child prefers more solitary learning, there are online opportunities. If your child has no interest in more education at this time, apprentice him or her out. If you're worried your child is destined for a life of crime, finds bullying entertaining, or is otherwise a menace to society, send him or her off to boot camp. But whatever you choose, you are responsible for the harm your child does until he or she reaches majority. The kid goes to jail, you go with him. One of my former students got 30 days in jail for beating up another kid. His dad got the same sentence for contributing to the deliquency of a minor.; 6/22/18, 12:01 PM
Achilles said...: Donny Douchebag.

This is on the air at MSNBC with no pushback.

Hatred is mainstream democrat thought.

They create this environment everywhere they have control.

They are not good people.

They must be defeated.; 6/22/18, 12:04 PM
stevew said...: School officials, public and private, are not trained and qualified to effectively deal with these sorts of social and psychological situations.

-sw; 6/22/18, 12:05 PM
Anonymous said...: mockturtle: While the social media exacerbate the situation, bullying is not new.

No, but I wonder if the school authorities' attitude toward them is. In the past they may have been ignored, and the kids' left to settle their own scores, but did they coddle the bullies, as I've observed first hand in my own kids' schools?

Their attitude was that it always "takes two to tango", that the victim was always as guilty as the perp (actually, more so!), no matter how much evidence was piled up, from multiple victims, against the poor widdle perp. It took a major pile-on from many disgusted parents (and no doubt growing fear of lawsuits) to get the school administrators to back off from their addle-brained kumbaya bullshit and finally *do* something about the little asshole who was making the other kids miserable.

The information in the article suggests that this schools' administrators shared that addle-brained approach.

I have no doubt that a rise in suicides does not have a single cause of "bullying". But it also seems very plausible to me that having the disorienting experience of watching adults - the people who are supposed to protect you - "frame" the problem in so maddeningly obtuse a fashion, could have dangerous psychological consequences in vulnerable individuals.; 6/22/18, 12:08 PM
Unknown said...: You all are crazy. There are bullies everywhere at every stage in life. If you do not learn to deal with it, you are crippled. If the answer is 'run and tell someone so they can fix it' you will never learn.

If you are bullied in school, make sure there's evidence and react. OK, let someone know (part of the 'evidence' strategy), but let them know that if it continues you will do something about it. Let the bully know. If it continues, react -- escalate until it gets dealt with. If you get suspended, then sue.

You cannot be protected by someone else all the time, and if the school manages to stop it, then there's always after school, the rec center, arcade, or the pool. Hitting the brick wall of looking for a protector that doesn't exist or just holding it in until weapons or suicide makes sense is not a good answer answer.

Bullies live in someone else's weakness. If weakness is all you got, you lose.; 6/22/18, 12:10 PM
bagoh20 said...: There have always been and will always be bullies, and kids who can't handle it, so this is not new and is not going away. Not even the rate of it has changed, despite all our outrage, programs, posters, commercials, training and hand ringing. I expect we will mostly make it worse. We certainly are not helping with all our great ideas, but we are managing to create new problems with our "solutions", and maybe even increasing bullying.

It is very true and great wisdom that "Better than nothing is a high standard", but resisting the emotional need to do something is harder than quitting heroin. Even if Jesus came down and told you that there is nothing you can do about this, can you imagine making the argument for nothing at the school board meeting.

I wonder how many problems in our culture only exist due to our inability to resist the need to do something about everything that's not perfect, especially with children. Challenges and developing the skills to deal with them are absolutley necessary from a young age, because they will be part of life the entire time you live it. Nobody can be successful or happy without developing those fundamental skills. Imagine if when a toddler fell trying to walk that you just told them to stay on your knees, it's safer, or tried to do something about gravity.

I don't know the details, but I feel that parents are responsible for things like this. No school official can control how every kid behaves every minute in and out of school. All that can be done is to prepare your kid to deal with what the world holds. That is your primary duty as a parent. The school is there to provide instruction in basic academics which can include showing kids what's wrong with bullying, but that will always have limited success, just like teaching math and spelling does.; 6/22/18, 12:11 PM
Alex said...: So if a kid is too weak to fight back, that's the rule of the jungle then? We don't live in the jungle anymore. Stronger kids need to stand up for the weaker ones.; 6/22/18, 12:13 PM
n.n said...: The liability of the school depends on the premise that attendance is mandatory. So, the administrators and faculty are stand-in guardians.; 6/22/18, 12:13 PM
dreams said...: "Fonda’s deleted tweet about Nielsen read:"

“Kristjen Nielsen is a lying gash that should be put in a cage and poked at by passersby. The gash should be pilloried in Lafayette Square naked and whipped by passersby while being filmed for posterity.”

"The left fosters this environment at every level."

I think it makes them feel good.

“It Felt Really Good”: "DOJ Employee Among Socialists Harassing Homeland Secretary Kirstjen Nielson At Restaurant"

https://jonathanturley.org/2018/06/21/it-felt-really-good-doj-employee-among-socialists-harassing-homeland-secretary-kirstjen-nielson-at-restaurant/; 6/22/18, 12:16 PM
FredwinaD said...: I don't see anything in the article that would indicate it's the school's fault that she killed herself. This little girl's suicide is tragic, and I can't imagine her parents' pain. But I don't see the school as any more responsible for her suicide than her parents are. A lot of kids are bullied. I was bullied by mean girls. My daughter was bullied in middle school even worse than I had been. Her middle school years were pretty hellish. But she never considered killing herself (or others). Nor did I.

Many girls are vicious, and I think parents are to blame for that. Too many parents look the other way and/or don't teach their children to be kind. All that said, neither my daughter nor I ever thought of suicide as a solution. There are other factors at work, in my opinion, when a person chooses suicide. A person has to be emotionally or mentally unstable to make such an awful, irreversible choice.

I also think suicide is glamorized these days, by things like the TV series "13 Reasons Why." And I think there's too much blaming of others and romanticizing of the victim. I think these things make impressionable children and teens more apt to see suicide as a means of gaining "revenge" and/or attention, without considering the finality of it or the effect on their loved ones.

I definitely have sympathy for this girls and her parents. It's a heartbreaking situation. But blaming others isn't helping anything, in my opinion.; 6/22/18, 12:24 PM
MadTownGuy said...: Educators (not merely teachers but counselors, administrators, etc.) have been pushing alternative dispute resolution for at least the last 20 years. Admirable, but it doesn't seem to be getting much in the way of results.; 6/22/18, 12:25 PM
Jupiter said...: Inga said...

"So you learned nothing from your experience of being bullied?"

To the contrary, Igna. I learned that pacifism is merely cowardice, moral, physical or both. I learned that the State is a poor friend and a powerful enemy. And I learned that people like you, who claim to be motivated by concern for others, are either fools -- what the Communists call 'useful idiots" -- or else something worse.; 6/22/18, 12:26 PM
Professional lady said...: FredwinaD, I agree that suicide is being romanticized these days. But, girls aren't the only ones who are vicious, many boys are vicious too.; 6/22/18, 12:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Inga: Ah, that makes sense. You often present yourself in a bulling manner when you address me. So you learned nothing from your experience of being bullied? I’ll keep your sad teen years in mind when I respond to your agressive nasty comments directed to me in future.

Oh give it a flippin' rest, Inga. You're every bit as "bullying" (attempted,anyway), nasty, and aggressive as any other poster here.

I, for one, have no problem whatever with that. But spare us your periodic playing of the victim card, as if you were some paragon of civility who occasionally gets goaded into lashing out by all the meanies.

There are nobler souls here who always stay above the nasty exchanges and personal attacks, and kudos to them - "I see better things, and approve, but I follow the worse".

But you're not one of them.; 6/22/18, 12:33 PM
dreams said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 12:33 PM
Achilles said...: bagoh20 said...
There have always been and will always be bullies, and kids who can't handle it, so this is not new and is not going away. Not even the rate of it has changed, despite all our outrage, programs, posters, commercials, training and hand ringing. I expect we will mostly make it worse. We certainly are not helping with all our great ideas, but we are managing to create new problems with our "solutions", and maybe even increasing bullying.

It is very true and great wisdom that "Better than nothing is a high standard", but resisting the emotional need to do something is harder than quitting heroin. Even if Jesus came down and told you that there is nothing you can do about this, can you imagine making the argument for nothing at the school board meeting.

There is a difference between being bullied in school when there is institutional support for fairness and decency, and being bullied in school when the institution is run by progressives.

If the powers that be side with the bullies as appears to have happened in this case no 6th grader will overcome that.

Anyone can be broken. There are some tough people in here I am sure. I have seen people tougher than you broken.

The parents need the option to move to another school.; 6/22/18, 12:35 PM
dreams said...: Are these people bullies?

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000005964109/kirstjen-nielsen-heckled-at-mexican-restaurant.html; 6/22/18, 12:36 PM
mccullough said...: Can’t expect the schools to handle this. They don’t reakky educate the kids. The girl’s father should have talked to the father of the bullies. If it didn’t stop, then the girl’s father should have beat the shit out of the father in front of the bullies daughter. Some people need to learn the hard way. The fact that the parents are suing is stupid. The girl killed her self because her parents are weak.; 6/22/18, 12:37 PM
Amadeus 48 said...: "I think it makes them feel good."

You bet. That rush that comes with ignoring all social conventions and courtesies, spiked with self-righteousness and virtue-signaling, is hard to beat. Those folks would really like to go full French Revolution with show trials, tumbrils, and guillotines in front of the Supreme Court building.; 6/22/18, 12:37 PM
bagoh20 said...: I don't know about this particular child's thinking, but I do believe that many suicides are carried out becuase people want those of us left behind to react exactly as we do, and they can't get that without suicide. So they do it becuase it works, and they know it will, becuase they have seen it themselves. Therefore, little will ever be done to end suicides either.; 6/22/18, 12:39 PM
dreams said...: Why do people bully?

“It Felt Really Good”: "DOJ Employee Among Socialists Harassing Homeland Secretary Kirstjen Nielson At Restaurant"

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000005964109/kirstjen-nielsen-heckled-at-mexican-restaurant.html; 6/22/18, 12:40 PM
Jupiter said...: bagoh20 said...

"I don't know the details, but I feel that parents are responsible for things like this. No school official can control how every kid behaves every minute in and out of school. All that can be done is to prepare your kid to deal with what the world holds. That is your primary duty as a parent. The school is there to provide instruction in basic academics which can include showing kids what's wrong with bullying, but that will always have limited success, just like teaching math and spelling does."

For almost ALL of human history, children were raised in the company of adults. It is only very recently that "school" was invented, and it was invented by the Prussians, in order to mold innocent children into obedient soldiers and factory workers who would serve the interests of the State. The fact that American Progressives thought it was a great idea, and imported it, tells you all you need to know about American Progressives.

At least the fascists knew enough to maintain adult control of the little prisons they built. But the modern American school is an unnatural society in which the virtuous suffer and the vicious thrive. Instead of being slowly and gently drawn into a functioning adult society, children are immersed in an unnatural society composed entirely of other children. Most of us are blinded to the complete insanity of this system by the fact that we were subjected to it ourselves, and can imagine no other. But in fact, it is sick, it is wrong, it needs to stop. If your children are not criminals, don't send them to prison.; 6/22/18, 12:41 PM
MadTownGuy said...: NJ is purported to have one of the strongest anti-bullying laws in the country.

From the article: "The main author of the study has suggested that the reason anti-bullying programs are not lowering the occurrence of bullying is because these programs actually educate the bully. Bullies learn what to say or do when questioned by parents or teachers, and they are able to avoid being caught and to continue the behavior."

In my experience, a lot of bullying could be averted by teachers paying close attention to student interactions.; 6/22/18, 12:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Achilles to bagoh20: There is a difference between being bullied in school when there is institutional support for fairness and decency, and being bullied in school when the institution is run by progressives.

This.

I get the impression that some of the people commenting here are unaware of the downright pathological,enabling attitude toward bullies in public schools that others of us have observed up close and personal.

We are *not* talking about the inability of school authorities to "control how every kid behaves every minute in and out of school", or about school authorities just leaving the kids to settle their own business among themselves.; 6/22/18, 12:43 PM
Anthony said...: Block them from sending you tweets?

Tweet back "F*** off, Beyotches"?

Tweet back any number of nicely targeted insults that they may or may not understand?

Turn off your stupid phone?

Get one of them behind the school and slug 'em?

Probably a disturbed kid anyway.; 6/22/18, 12:44 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "Mallory, had repeatedly received negative texts and Snapchat messages from other students during her first year at Copeland Middle School in Rockaway Township. Some of the messages berated her by saying she had no friends, and others asked her when she would kill herself, the lawsuit says."

-- Middle schoolers have cellphones?; 6/22/18, 12:44 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “Oh give it a flippin' rest, Inga. You're every bit as "bullying" (attempted,anyway), nasty, and aggressive as any other poster here.”

Pot/kettle.

“There are nobler souls here who always stay above the nasty exchanges and personal attacks, and kudos to them...”

You aren’t among them.; 6/22/18, 12:46 PM
mccullough said...: Girls need to learn how to throw a punch and take a punch, too. You have to make someone regret stepping out of line on you. Make it hurt. Only way some kids learn.; 6/22/18, 12:48 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “To the contrary, Igna. I learned that pacifism is merely cowardice, moral, physical or both. I learned that the State is a poor friend and a powerful enemy. And I learned that people like you, who claim to be motivated by concern for others, are either fools -- what the Communists call 'useful idiots" -- or else something worse.”

I’m sorry you were bullied in middle school.; 6/22/18, 12:50 PM
Jupiter said...: bagoh20 said...
"I don't know about this particular child's thinking, but I do believe that many suicides are carried out becuase people want those of us left behind to react exactly as we do, and they can't get that without suicide."

Listen, bag. I posted a link to an article that says that teen suicide skyrockets during the school year, and plummets in the Summer. Plummets. So, yes, it is the weak who succumb. The weak, or the unfortunate, whose tormentors are particularly able or active. But I am so sick of hearing about standing up to bullies. I am an adult, and I have handguns so I can kill people who molest me. But there are still plenty of places I won't go. It is sick and wrong and cruel to force children to confront a toxic environment with their meager resources. It kills a lot of them, and does irreparable harm to many more.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201805/children-s-teens-suicides-related-the-school-calendar; 6/22/18, 12:56 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "Their attitude was that it always "takes two to tango.""

-- When I was growing up, that was the teacher's vocalization. But, the punishment was often randomly different. The bully would get detention plus a bunch of other stuff, while the kid that fought back would only get part of the punishment. When the parents complained, the principal said something like: "Well, the part they're both getting is the punishment for fighting. The rest is because" your kid is a dick, or whatever the polite way of saying that is.; 6/22/18, 12:57 PM
Jupiter said...: Inga said...

"I’m sorry you were bullied in middle school."

Bullshit, Igna. You are a priestess at the altar of Leftism. The idol you worship has hundreds of millions of victims, and no doubt you are "sorry" for all of them. The thing that's so annoying about you is that you are so dim you actually believe the gibberish you post.; 6/22/18, 1:00 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “Bullshit, Igna. You are a priestess at the altar of Leftism. The idol you worship has hundreds of millions of victims, and no doubt you are "sorry" for all of them. The thing that's so annoying about you is that you are so dim you actually believe the gibberish you post.“

I’m sorry you were bullied in high school.; 6/22/18, 1:02 PM
Achilles said...: Inga said...

I’m sorry you were bullied in middle school.

I am so glad the leftists have dropped their masks this last week or so.

Hate is the mainstream leftist motivation.

They hate. Especially American Citizens. It is what they do.

They are clearly dreaming of firing up the ovens again.; 6/22/18, 1:12 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: This is what happens when the government separates children from their parents. Imagine being compelled to accept "hugs" from your enemies. That's physical abuse.; 6/22/18, 1:18 PM
tim maguire said...: When I was young, every school had a couple kids who were bullied mercilessly. Most of them didn't kill themselves or anybody else. There's an additional ingredient in these cases, something in the victim that leads to an extreme solution.

My daughter is only a little younger than this poor girl and I hope I'm never in those parent's position (I don't think I will be, my daughter has at least average popularity and the school takes bullying very seriously), but I have to think the lawsuit is as much as anything an attempt by the parents to get their own finger of blame pointing somewhere other than at themselves.

If my daughter was being treated like this and the school wouldn't do anything, I'd pull her out. Get her in an entirely new environment. But they didn't. They settled for what the school was offering. I have no doubt they spend all of their time thinking of what they should have done before it was too late. The lawsuit gives them somewhere else to direct their anger.; 6/22/18, 1:19 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: This is ultimately the parent's responsibility. Any parent who believes their child is being bullied to the extent that it is damaging to the child's psyche has a moral responsibility to take their child out of the school. I made it clear to all my kids that if they wanted to quit school at any point and just stay home I would fully support them and fuck the state. None have taken this option, but it was always there.

This being said, one of my children (girl) was accused of bullying and it was total BS. Accusations of bullying can themselves become a form of bullying. But again, it is the responsibility of the parent to figure this shit out. It is impossible for the teachers to understand any student's psychology better than the parent.; 6/22/18, 1:20 PM
Jupiter said...: The thing that really amazes me, looking back on it, was that I never talked to anyone about the terrible things that were happening to me. I think I understood that the adults would never consider actually fixing any of the things that were wrong. They would see me as the problem, and any steps they took would only make things worse. I loved my parents, and they loved me, but they were incapable of recognizing that the larger society was not necessarily our friend. They thought they were the fortunate citizens of the greatest country on Earth, and that they owed their remarkable success in life to the ennobling power of Education. Education, and by extension Educators, could do no wrong, and any misfit between that rapacious Juggernaut and me was an unfortunate failing on my part.; 6/22/18, 1:20 PM
Achilles said...: Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
This is ultimately the parent's responsibility. Any parent who believes their child is being bullied to the extent that it is damaging to the child's psyche has a moral responsibility to take their child out of the school.

School choice and voucher programs have universal support.; 6/22/18, 1:24 PM
mccullough said...: Jupiter,

Good points. There are good individuals everywhere but there is no such thing as a good institution. Institutions are run by individuals and most people aren’t good people. Most are lazy and just want to get through the day. Some are bad people. The rest are good people. Kids need to learn how to navigate through institutions. They need to be able to identify the good people from the lazy people from the bad people. Then exploit the lazy and bad people; 6/22/18, 1:25 PM
PatHMV said...: Sadly, making the victim of bullying modify their behavior, rather than punishing the bullies, is far coo common.

My step-son attended a private Catholic school. In 6th grade, he was being bullied on the bus. When my wife complained to the assistant principal, her "solution" was to make him sit at the front of the bus with the little kids... leaving his bullies to sit and continue to rule the back seats. And of course they added to their taunts by noting he was sitting with all the baby kids.

Fortunately, my wife eventually managed to get the actual principal involved, who immediately removed the bullies from riding the bus, and the assistant principal was not invited back to work for the following year, so someone had some sense. But it boggles my mind that in the 21st century, this is the default reaction to bullying and aggressive behavior by educational professionals.

At least my wife would have had the ability to move him to some other school, had the problems continued to persist. Not like public school parents who have no other legal options to take their children out of dangerous situations, unless they can afford to pay for private school.

And no, this poor kid didn't need to "toughen up" or whatever. Yes, being a little tougher can help prevent bullies from targeting you to begin with, because bullies seek out weaker and more timid victims. And not all teasing is bullying that needs adult intervention, and kids need to learn that some teasing is part of life. But when lunch time is made intolerable by bullying, and the grown-ups in whose care the child has been entrusted respond by punishing the weaker child by forcing them to eat in the counselor's office, rather than forcing the bullies to stop their behavior and by removing them from the lunchroom if they don't, that's just reprehensible.

Imagine: a kid comes to you, a school principal, and says she has been the victim of repeated bullying by other kids. It goes on and continues to go on after you've tried initial remedial measures like "hug it out." And then it gets so bad that you agree the kid being bullied should not eat in the lunch room. Do you truly believe the best response is "ok, let's leave the bullies in control of the lunchroom and move the kid being bullied to a special place."

I'll reserve judgment until the lawsuit progresses and the school's side of the story becomes available, but if these allegations are remotely true, the principal and teachers involved should all be fired.; 6/22/18, 1:28 PM
PatHMV said...: I do agree that the parents are not blameless here, based on the story provided to this point. If the bullying is that bad, and the school won't do anything about it, then it's your job to protect your kid by getting them out, or by confronting the other parents, or calling the school board, or calling the media, or doing whatever it takes to make your voice heard.; 6/22/18, 1:30 PM
Achilles said...: mccullough said...
Can’t expect the schools to handle this. They don’t reakky educate the kids. The girl’s father should have talked to the father of the bullies. If it didn’t stop, then the girl’s father should have beat the shit out of the father in front of the bullies daughter. Some people need to learn the hard way. The fact that the parents are suing is stupid. The girl killed her self because her parents are weak.

In a just world this would happen.

If one father couldn't do it another would.

But the schools are a progressive world. That kid would be expelled from school and the father would be thrown in jail. The bullies would be venerated as victims especially if they were a minority.

Bullying is institutional. It is supported by progressives at every level.

They are doing this on purpose. Our public schools are a toxic environment especially for boys and anyone not in the multicultural camp. If you believe in individual freedom you are a target.; 6/22/18, 1:31 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 1:34 PM
bagoh20 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 1:37 PM
Jupiter said...: When the Soviets put up Sputnik, the American government freaked out. They went to Princeton and Yale and asked the Math Guys what they should do to improve American math education. The Guys told them that Modern Mathematics was all about sets. So, in 5th grade we studied set theory.

Now, as it happens, that was a very good foundation for my later education, as was the excellent training in Algebra I received between beatings at Thomas Jefferson Junior High School. But contrary to Igna's hopes and consolations, I was not bullied in high school, because I dropped out. Goodbye to All That. Nonetheless, I somehow ended up with a PhD in physics. Smartasses will be smartasses.

So my point is, was it really necessary for all those other kids to spend their days struggling with set theory, so I could get my PhD? Was it really an enrichment of their lives that more than compensated for the boredom, drudgery and general misery of the process? So they can grok the Venn diagrams in some silly NYT article about Millennials? It just amazes me how resistant all you people are to the idea that school is unpleasant, unnatural and unnecessary.; 6/22/18, 1:39 PM
Rabel said...: The triggering event in the girl's suicide was the three hour meeting with the principal which was demanded by the parents.

Perhaps a monetary settlement will help them deal with their guilt.; 6/22/18, 1:40 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Teachers have traditionally been unable, or unwilling, to tell the difference between a "fight" (mutual combat) and a bully knocking the snot out of a victim, and would punish both parties. Schools now pay lip service to opposing bullying, while encouraging cry-bullying of the approved type. They still value "leadership" among students, which is generally indistinguishable from bullying. Then as now, teachers actually use student bullies, as long as they go along with the program, to enforce discipline.; 6/22/18, 1:42 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “This is ultimately the parent's responsibility. Any parent who believes their child is being bullied to the extent that it is damaging to the child's psyche has a moral responsibility to take their child out of the school.”

True! My first thought when hearing these sad stories is why didn’t the parents be pro active and take their kid OUT of that school? I had a woman to woman talk to my son’s kindergarten teacher because she not only allowed bullying, she encouraged it. Yes, in kindergarten. I went to the principal and was given excuses for the teacher’s behavior by saying she was of advanced age and would be retiring that next year. Wrong answer. I promptly took my son out of that school and placed him in another where he thrived and was happy to go to school everyday in stead of crying and begging me to stay home. If the next school wouldn’t have been a better fit, I would have taken him home and home schooled him.; 6/22/18, 1:42 PM
Anonymous said...: I said: "Oh give it a flippin' rest, Inga. You're every bit as 'bullying' (attempted,anyway), nasty, and aggressive as any other poster here.

I, for one, have no problem whatever with that...

And Inga said: "Pot/kettle."

Then I said: "There are nobler souls here who always stay above the nasty exchanges and personal attacks, and kudos to them - 'I see better things, and approve, but I follow the worse'."

And Inga answered: "You aren’t among them."

Ing, could you at least *try* to make some logical connection between your responses and what people have written, every once in a while? Instead of just tearing off some snot-nosed non sequiturs that, at best, indicate that you didn't bother to read what you're so snot-nosedly responding to?

Because when somebody says "I do it, too", and you respond, "you do it, too (snap!)", or says "I'm not one of them", and you respond, "You're not one of them (snap!)", you just end up looking like your brain-damaged or something.

I'm trying to help here, Inga.; 6/22/18, 1:47 PM
Jupiter said...: Angle-Dyne, Angelic Buzzard said...

"'I see better things, and approve, but I follow the worse'."

Ooh, I like that. Where's that from?; 6/22/18, 1:51 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “I'm trying to help here, Inga.“

LOL, I’m beginning to think that you too are an adult who was bullied as a child, like poor Jupiter.; 6/22/18, 1:52 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Listen, bag. I posted a link to an article that says that teen suicide skyrockets during the school year, and plummets in the Summer. Plummets. So, yes, it is the weak who succumb. The weak, or the unfortunate, whose tormentors are particularly able or active."

Of course it rises during school. That's the biggest stress kids go through in their lives, and it's stressful for all of us, strong and weak. Then when we get older we have stress of a job, and a family to support. Yea, some times are tougher than others, and they are guaranteed to come to your kid. That's how life is. If a kid is weak, then that's the problem that needs fixed. His/her inner strength needs developed just like their body and their knowledge, becuase the world is not going to change, and expecting it to in place of building your kid into a strong person or expecting the government or schools to fix it is child neglect. Now, you might fail at it, but not trying and expecting others to handle it is passing the buck. If you think you will save your child by changing the world, you are letting them down.; 6/22/18, 1:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Jupiter: "'I see better things, and approve, but I follow the worse'."

Ooh, I like that. Where's that from?

Ovid.

Maybe you can explain what it means to Inga.; 6/22/18, 1:54 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: mccullough @12:37 +1000. Catholic school in the 50s. Dominican nuns beat the snot out of offenders. One learned restraint there. Big brother said to me... pick the biggest one, hit him on the end of the nose as hard as you can, as often as you can. Works like a charm. You may get beat up occasionally, but you know what to do about it. Word gets around that there's a price to pay. Bullied kids, when given the appropriate coaching, can unleash mighty force. Win if you can, lose if you must, by all means cheat.; 6/22/18, 1:54 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: Some kids are stressed out during the summer too. Summer camp can be brutal for some sensitive children.; 6/22/18, 1:55 PM
Nonapod said...: Back in my day we had slam books.

I've heard of them, fortunately that nasty little practice wasn't prevalent at my school (that I was aware of anyway). I get your point though, bullying has never been limited to a face-to-face interaction. But as a guy I guess I wasn't as aware of the less direct and more passive aggresive forms that bullying that could take place. Boys tend to be more straightforward in their bullying than girls.

But with modern technology it seems like bullying has become even more invasive, more inescapable, more hateful, and more impactful.; 6/22/18, 2:01 PM
Jupiter said...: Angle-Dyne, Angelic Buzzard said...

"Maybe you can explain what it means to Inga."

Well, that might take some heavy lifting. I guess the straightforward meaning is, I approve of the better, because it serves the general interest. But I follow the worse, because it serves my own. And thus, in both cases, my interest is served.

In this particular case, Angel's point was that some who comment here are noble souls, may they rot, who adopt an attitude of being above the fray. Calm reason is their guiding star, and bitter invective is beneath them. Kind of a Jordan Peterson thing. Then you have your brawlers, who suffer not fools. It is possible to admire the former, while behaving like the latter. Indeed, one may even reproach oneself for such behavior, and yet one continues. It is strange, how to know what is best, is not always to desire it.

What Angel objects to, Igna, is your utter lack of self-knowledge, or even self-awareness. One moment you are slanging it out with the best (or worst) of us, the next you are Miss Priss with the unmelted butter sweetening your breath as your virtue doth sweeten your sentiments. Few things are so infuriating as a mind too shallow to recognize its own contradictions.

But that is just my narrow reading. As Igna pointed out, the deeper significance is probably that somebody shoved you once at recess.; 6/22/18, 2:20 PM
Achilles said...: Jupiter said...

It just amazes me how resistant all you people are to the idea that school is unpleasant, unnatural and unnecessary.

Mandatory public education k-12 is a scam.

By 10th grade a large number of kids should be directed towards trade skills.

Nursing, electrical, plumbing, pipe fitting, call centers etc.

Very few kids should go straight to college after high school. Most should get jobs and be sent to school if they show aptitude.

Most engineers would be well served by being an apprentice electrician for a few years.

My wife graduated as an RN with 4 years of experience as an LPN in the army. Most of the kids she went to school with graduated as an RN with 0 working experience.

They should not have the responsibility an RN in a hospital has with 0 years of working experience.; 6/22/18, 2:31 PM
Jupiter said...: Blogger bagoh20 said...

"Of course it rises during school. That's the biggest stress kids go through in their lives, and it's stressful for all of us, strong and weak."

No actually, it isn't. Some kids thrive at school. I did, until 7th grade, when they yanked us out of the little six-room school where we were all friends and shipped us to the Hell the State had concocted to further our education, and where our only contact with our friends was to silently witness their suffering as we rushed by them in the halls. The idea that the world is a harsh place, and therefore the young should be subjected to the worst of its horrors at the earliest opportunity, is misguided. Evolution knows better. That is why birds build their nests in trees, for Christ's sake.; 6/22/18, 2:32 PM
Denever said...: "It is only very recently that 'school' was invented, and it was invented by the Prussians"

Take that, Horace Mann!; 6/22/18, 2:36 PM
Caligula said...: If the "bullying" took place primarily on social media (my memory of "bullying" is that it involved fists, or at least a noogie) then is the school to be responsible for what students do on social media?

If so, how are they to monitor and police this?; 6/22/18, 2:41 PM
Jupiter said...: Caligula said...

"If so, how are they to monitor and police this?"

They aren't, and they won't. It amazes me how many people are prepared to blithely point out that it is impossible for schools to do what they must do if they are to be tolerable, without concluding that schools are and will remain intolerable.; 6/22/18, 2:50 PM
MadisonMan said...: It is cruel and misguided to blame the parents here. Children are very adepth at shielding their parents from uncomfortable truths. Note that after the 3-hour meeting the Mom was reported to be choosing to yank her kid from the school -- which would be just another trauma.

From above: I'll reserve judgment until the lawsuit progresses and the school's side of the story becomes available, but if these allegations are remotely true, the principal and teachers involved should all be fired.

But then the Union will lose dues-paying members! I fully expect the Union to fight this lawsuit. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.; 6/22/18, 2:55 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Jupiter said...
What Angel objects to, Igna, is your utter lack of self-knowledge, or even self-awareness. One moment you are slanging it out with the best (or worst) of us, the next you are Miss Priss with the unmelted butter sweetening your breath as your virtue doth sweeten your sentiments. Few things are so infuriating as a mind too shallow to recognize its own contradictions.

In which Jupiter provides an excellent demonstration of why it is difficult to determine who is bullied and who is the bully.; 6/22/18, 2:57 PM
Jeff said...: Most of the bullying in the linked story was apparently done via text messages and SnapChat. How is the school supposed to police that? Only way I can think of is to confiscate all cell phones upon entry into the school building and return them on the way out. At least that way you force the bullying out of the virtual realm and into the physical one, where it can be seen by teachers and school staff.

I thought a bit about what might have happened if Mallory's parents hadn't allowed her to have a cell phone. On one hand, that would have reduced the impact of cyber-bullying. But on the other hand, Mallory's lack of a phone when everyone else had one would have been yet another thing she'd be bullied about. So it might not have worked, and may have even made things worse.

Better the first idea, just disallowing cell phones to all students during school hours. And the easiest way to do this is (i) make sure all wifi networks are inaccessible to students, and (ii) install cell phone jammers throughout school property.

Only problem is that jamming cell phones is illegal, according to the FCC. But Congress can change that.; 6/22/18, 3:01 PM
SuzanneN said...: Do we know whether there was a racial angle to the bullying?

One of the articles I saw from a local NJ paper recorded one of the insults used as "white bitch."

A racial angle might also help explain the need/desire of the administration to coddle (if not appease) the bullies.; 6/22/18, 3:03 PM
Jupiter said...: Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

"In which Jupiter provides an excellent demonstration of why it is difficult to determine who is bullied and who is the bully."

Well, the obvious solution, as anyone who has a Doctorate in Education could tell you, is to have me and Igna sit down together in a small room, tell us we're both in the wrong and must do better, make us hug each other (only not in a sexually harassing way, of course), and then go off and leave me alone with her. Igna's education should then proceed apace.; 6/22/18, 3:03 PM
Howard said...: You have to make your kids mentally and physically strong because the world is full of bullies, soul-crushing bureaucrats, assholes and con men.; 6/22/18, 3:08 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 3:12 PM
SuzanneN said...: My impression is that school admin. monitors what's said on social media. (And if the school should confiscate phones during the day--over the dead bodies of the parents, I fear, who want to be in potential contact at all times with their kids; and in an age of school shootings, it's going to be hard to say them nay--that just leaves all the many hours outside of school when they're not, for example, doing their homework!)

I also think that Mallory didn't have a regular cellphone; but of course that doesn't impede the others.

Don't forget the tendency in schools, these days, to move towards "restorative justice" practices (and away from those that are "punitive"). People say, very earnestly, that if you remove from school the kids who are violent and disruptive and so forth, you are removing from school the very ones who need schooling the most!

(I would say that they do indeed need schooling; but, until they can obey the rules, they should be educated in an alternative setting. I would suggest throwing resources, esp. in terms of one-on-one interaction with adults, at them; but it's unconscionable to allow the disruption and violence of a minority to mess up the education of the others.); 6/22/18, 3:12 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 3:14 PM
gbarto said...: In Junior High I was bullied. One guy was always poking at me or otherwise intimidating me, a lot of fake punching. One day, I laid a solid punch on his chest and he moved on. He could have slaughtered me, of course, but that would have drawn too much attention and he was already a frequent guest of the principal.

Today, we don't teach kids to hit back and if they do hit back the bully and bullied both get suspended. Good kids are taught that being good means being the victim.

It's ironic that CPS will only investigate if you don't send your kids into these places.; 6/22/18, 3:16 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “Few things are so infuriating as a mind too shallow to recognize its own contradictions.”

Most people, by the time they reach adulthood, realize that life and people are full of contradictions. Most adult people have the life skills to roll with those contradictions. Some unfortunate souls, whose emotional development is stunted, get anxious, defensive, angry and just cannot adapt to life’s contradictions.

Therapy can help.; 6/22/18, 3:17 PM
Achilles said...: SuzanneN said...
Do we know whether there was a racial angle to the bullying?

One of the articles I saw from a local NJ paper recorded one of the insults used as "white bitch."

A racial angle might also help explain the need/desire of the administration to coddle (if not appease) the bullies.

This has been a given from the start.

Progressives purposely turned the schools into what they are today.; 6/22/18, 3:18 PM
buwaya said...: "It is only very recently that 'school' was invented, and it was invented by the Prussians"

Not true. You could say they made an existing concept secular and public.

Mass education (free schools open to all children) were invented by the Catholic Church, and put on a regular organized basis by St. Jean Baptiste De La Salle.
La Salle invented nearly everything about modern mass education, from the structure of classrooms to regularity of lectures (simultaneous instruction) to the basic elementary curriculum to institutions for teacher training. Financing was through parish funds, charities, foundations, etc.

This was an inspiration to several Prussian monarchs, who implemented much of La Salle's system, but putting it all on a basis of public funding.; 6/22/18, 3:19 PM
PatHMV said...: Calilgula:

Nobody here is saying the school has an obligation to monitor social media posts of students in real time. What the lawsuit claims is that when the school was TOLD about the bullying by both the student and her parents, they did not take appropriate and effective action. If one kid is bullying another, you don't have them "hug it out," for example. The school is not being sued for not paying close enough attention to social media, but for not taking effective action when it was told that one group of students was bullying another.; 6/22/18, 3:22 PM
Unknown said...: I'm assuming both parents work. That only increases their responsibility to ensure their daughter got the best from them when they were all together. An eight hour day, coupled with an hour commute, leaves precious few hours for parents to interact with their children.

In this case, it seems to me the parents clearly put too much trust in the school, and, however unconsciously, abdicated their responsibility. My brother had a situation with his son, who was trained in Tai Kwon Do. After speaking with both his dad and his instructor, my nephew decked the bully on their next encounter.

At the inevitable after school meeting, my brother cut off the principal's inevitable blame-sharing by pointing to the bully and placing the fault solely with him. He then informed the bully's dad that the next meeting will not be held in the principal's office, but at his front door. He worked an eight hour day and had an hour commute in each direction. He refused to take the time required to suffer fools. A good lesson that I've been slowly passing on to my own son.; 6/22/18, 3:25 PM
Megthered said...: It is the parent's responsibility to keep their children safe. They should have taken the child out of the school and told the principal why. Bullying goes on in all schools, by children and teachers. My son was in Catholic school and had a teacher (a NUN) that called students stupid if they couldn't answer a question correctly, boring if the child asked a for clarification or didn't understand something, retarded if the child just couldn't get it. When she tried that with my son, I completely bypassed the principle's office, they knew how she was, and went straight to her classroom. I proceeded to tell her if I ever heard of her doing anything like that again, to any student, I would go to the Bishop's office, then to the newspaper. I used harsher words than that, though. By the end of the "discussion", she was crying and promising to apologize. She did apologize to the class the next day. My son told his friends that Mom made the sister cry. My phone rang off the hook with parents calling me and congratulating me for doing something about her.; 6/22/18, 3:28 PM
Jupiter said...: Jesus Christ, what a horrific story. Poor little girl. You guys are right, it's her parents' fault. Their precious daughter, that they loved and cared for tenderly for all her short life, and will miss every day for the rest of their lives, would still be alive if they hadn't entrusted her to the public school system. Plus, she must have been weak, too, right? Only the strong survive in the pitiless jungle into which we throw our helpless young. So it's really her fault, too. I guess it worked pretty much according to plan. The weak little girl is now dead, her careless, negligent parents are heart-broken and guilt-stricken, and Big Education is rolling in tax dollars. Looks like everyone got what they deserved.; 6/22/18, 3:32 PM
traditionalguy said...: Just so you realize what the problem is , it is not social ostracism and mean girls slandering others.

The problem is aggressive FEMALE gangs attacking and beating up other girls for fun. Then the Professional School authorities hide from admitting this reality happens by suspending both the attackers and the attacked with ZERO interest in who attacked whom.

This is a new world.; 6/22/18, 3:33 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “Their precious daughter, that they loved and cared for tenderly for all her short life, and will miss every day for the rest of their lives, would still be alive if they hadn't entrusted her to the public school system.”
—————————-
“My son was in Catholic school and had a teacher (a NUN) that called students stupid if they couldn't answer a question correctly, boring if the child asked a for clarification or didn't understand something, retarded...”
——————————
My son was in a Lutheran school when I pulled him out of it because his teacher was a bully who hated little boys. I put him in the local neighborhood public school where he thrived.; 6/22/18, 3:38 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/22/18, 3:38 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: If the school is as terrible as it sounds, I do hope the parents win. I hope they win big enough to close it.; 6/22/18, 3:43 PM
Jupiter said...: "A federal judge on Wednesday refused to dismiss a lawsuit filed by a Chatham mother who says the school district forced her son to watch Islamic conversion videos and ignored the study of Christianity and Judaism."

Boy, those Jersey Schools are really full-service Hellholes.

https://www.nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2018/06/islamic_conversion_lawsuit_against_school_district.html; 6/22/18, 3:43 PM
bagoh20 said...: I think it is also incredibly unfair and unrealistic to expect teachers and administrators to handle a justice system at school. The bullies are not going to confess, so what now? You going to do endless investigations? Then, kangaroo courts, and punishments that will unavoidably often end up punishing the wrong people and getting the facts wrong. Kids will quickly learn how to game the system to exact punishment against rivals and enemies. We can't even get justice done right in the court system with highly trained people educated with exactly those particular skills, but we are expecting teachers to do it right?; 6/22/18, 3:44 PM
bagoh20 said...: Is it really surprising that the school personnel didn't manage to prevent this? Are they supposed to know exactly what to say, what to do, how to act to prevent a suicide? Is anybody here willing bet that you would do just the right thing, becuase I don't think anyone, even a trained professional, can claim that. People with years of psychiatric training get it wrong all the time. Would you be willing to accept the responsibility to prevent that with other people's children with or without the right training, because teachers don't have it and are not paid to?; 6/22/18, 3:52 PM
Seeing Red said...: There are texts who needs to confess?; 6/22/18, 3:52 PM
traditionalguy said...: bagoh20... J'accuse! A school Principal doing Justice in schools is real easy. All you need is a mature adult in charge. And then this problem will go away the second after you have quit ignoring it and covering up for being powerless except when striking about Teacher salaries.; 6/22/18, 3:53 PM
Seeing Red said...: Some boomer tried to bully my daughter this week because she was looking thru racks and wearing her cross.; 6/22/18, 3:56 PM
Marty said...: I usually avoid responding to or addressing anything Inga says because back and forth with Inga usually devolves into tiresome name calling. However, I can't help but notice how Inga attempts to goad and hurt Jupiter by the false expressions of sympathy. Nice example of how children try to bully someone. Maybe Inga was just trying to educate us all as to how bullying starts.

My own high school in the 60's was like Lord of the Flies (so much for a Jesuit education). I regret the times when I not only did not defend the targets of bullies but piled on. It took me a while after high school to recognize what an asshole I was as a teenager, and to vow not to stand idly by in the future.

I'm older now so I recognize right away when I am being an asshole. Is that progress?; 6/22/18, 4:15 PM
bagoh20 said...: "A school Principal doing Justice in schools is real easy. All you need is a mature adult in charge. And then this problem will go away the second after you have quit ignoring it and covering up for being powerless except when striking about Teacher salaries."

Yea, this bullying subject has been completely ignored. I never heard anything about it until today.

Just exactly what would you do that is legal, and fair to all including people accused of bullying who may or may not be guilty of it, and does that come with a guarantee that nobody will kill themselves or sue your school over it's magical new policy?; 6/22/18, 4:16 PM
bagoh20 said...: My solution is to do nothing, and I bet it works as well as any with less negative side effects.; 6/22/18, 4:19 PM
stevew said...: It is advisable and prudent to ignore the trolls in our midst.

@Hank Thoreau: "Asshole" is the default position for high schoolers, so don't beat yourself up too much about that. Take pride in the fact you didn't bring it with you into adulthood.

-sw; 6/22/18, 4:22 PM
buwaya said...: Hating little boys is, as we have seen, a quite common fault of public school teachers locally.

Via anecdotal information it seems to be widespread.; 6/22/18, 4:23 PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Achilles to bagoh20: There is a difference between being bullied in school when there is institutional support for fairness and decency, and being bullied in school when the institution is run by progressives."

Yes, very true in my experience. At my all-girl's Catholic school, there was a girl who was tormented ceaselessly by the mean girl clique. I was not one of them - but I was afraid of compromising my own status. I'd give her a slight smile and nod in the stairwells, but once, when she approached me and asked if I would like to work on a project with her, I panicked and said no. I couldn't actually be friends with her because then nobody else would be friends with me. I still remember the look in her eyes and still curse myself for my cowardice. After that, I looked away when we passed each other in the hallways.

But one day things changed. Our homeroom teacher, who had apparently witnessed some bullying incident, delivered an impassioned speech on how ugly and evil bullying was. This was a funny, and very well-liked teacher. She named no names but she kept her eyes locked on the girls who were the worst bullies, and they paid attention, since this was a lady (a lay teacher) with a very formidable presence. And the bullying stopped - for a while.

Another thing that happened - perhaps because as a result of that speech, perhaps because the bullied girl was taken under the wing of that teacher or some adult and given advice - is she stopped being an easy target. She stopped slouching, started fighting back verbally, started improving her personal hygiene. (One of the reasons she was picked on was she had bad posture, a bad complexion and greasy hair. Many adolescents have zits and dirty hair, but in her case, it added to her general aura of helpless victimhood.) The bullies lost interest in someone that stood up to them and turned their sights on some other hapless freshman.

I have no idea what happened to her after high school. I hope things turned out OK.

I do think that in that situation, a respected adult stepping in to champion the girl - without ever naming her by name in front of the class, which would have embarrassed her - made a big difference. Other kids (like me) were too conscious of their own status in the high school shark tank to brave the bullies.

And my high school was most decidedly not "progressive." If it had been, the homeroom teacher probably would have been trying to seduce one of her students. Bedding adolescents seems to be a favorite hobby of female public school teachers these days.; 6/22/18, 4:26 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “I usually avoid responding to or addressing anything Inga says because back and forth with Inga usually devolves into tiresome name calling. However, I can't help but notice how Inga attempts to goad and hurt Jupiter by the false expressions of sympathy. Nice example of how children try to bully someone. Maybe Inga was just trying to educate us all as to how bullying starts.”

No. I was teaching a bully how it feels to be bullied on these threads. I’ve been called a “cunt” and other derogatory names by Jupiter many times, even when I haven’t interacted with him at all on a thread. Maybe you don’t know this, maybe you don’t care. That Jupiter was bullied as a teenager makes it even worse when he bullies others on these threads. He wants sympathy as a person who was bullied, yet he goes out of his way to single me out for bullying. I used to ignore him and still do most times, but this was a terrific opportunity to give him some of his own medicine. The best way to deal with bullies is to give them a gut punch, metaphorically speaking. I don’t attack anyone unless they’ve attacked me first and then I will hit back (if I’m in the mood) twice as hard. Sort of like your Trump.; 6/22/18, 4:44 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “Hating little boys is, as we have seen, a quite common fault of public school teachers locally.”

Well here in Wisconsin my son’s Lutheran school kindergarten teacher hated little boys, go figure.; 6/22/18, 4:47 PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: "However, I can't help but notice how Inga attempts to goad and hurt Jupiter by the false expressions of sympathy. Nice example of how children try to bully someone. Maybe Inga was just trying to educate us all as to how bullying starts."

Exactly. He gave us his personal experience with being bullied and she immediately used it to attack him while pretending sympathy. Utterly contemptible passive-aggressive bullshit, but that's how she rolls. Then she whines about how mean everyone else is to her. Poor little innocent.

You just know Inga was one of the mean, catty, bullying bitches in high school - who knew how to turn on the tears and manipulate if anybody called her on it. Some people here fall for it.

The entire left is just one big mean girl's club now.; 6/22/18, 4:48 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: We often see piling on these threads also. One major bully starts and then you have the minor bullies who join in. It’s as if we are back in middle school, lol.; 6/22/18, 4:50 PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: People are trading personal stories about what it was like to witness and be bullied in school. And in jumps our resident feckless idiot to attack commenters who have shared those stories and to make it, once again, all about her.

"People have called me bad names here! These Trumpists are sooooo mean to poor little me! I'm such a victim! Why, I never say anything cruel or vicious to others, just when they attack me! (Although Jupiter didn't attack in this thread.) I'm a poor little lamb!"

A retiree who is still mentally and emotionally a 16 year old Mean Girl, playing her tiny little violin for sympathy.; 6/22/18, 4:58 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Going through old papers today and found some from twenty years ago, including a letter I wrote to a teacher to demand that she stop bullying me. The letter is marked that it was also being copied to the principal and superintendent. It is absolutely scathing. She was certainly a bully, but the letter is so cutting that I think it might qualify as bullying too. Yow! I was clearly furious when I wrote it. As I recall, she resigned at the end of that year.

Maybe students should write (less mean) letters.; 6/22/18, 4:58 PM
Inga...Allie Oop said...: “...all about her.”

Wrong, as usual. It’s about bullying and how to deal with bullies.; 6/22/18, 5:06 PM
MayBee said...: eric- your story really touched me Bless you; 6/22/18, 5:10 PM
Captain BillieBob said...: https://patch.com/new-jersey/parsippany/mallory-grossman-bullying-detailed-wrongful-death-suit

The article linked to above gives more detail than the Times. Sounds to me that the administration tried to solve the problem be moving Mallory rather than disciplining the girls doing the bullying.; 6/22/18, 5:16 PM
gadfly said...: So the newly hatched parents of the modern age have never experienced bullying? I was - and my Dad said "Son, you will likely get hurt, but you have to surprise the bastard and hit him first when he doesn't expect it. Aim for his nose. So I trained my son the same way.

I was so proud of him when I was called into a smirking School Principal's office to be told that the mother of the meanest kid in school had complained because the big guy's glasses were broken and he had mud all over his jacket when my 5'4" 140 lb son knocked him down during recess. The Principal had to play disciplinarian and assign some after school time in the auditorium but we didn't pay for new glasses or a dry-cleaning bill. Interestingly, the big bully dropped out of the soccer program which sounded like a Mom's decision.; 6/22/18, 5:21 PM
MayBee said...: I think the parents are suing the school in the hopes it will make them feel better, but it will not. Bullying is awful but parents have more responsibility for their children's emotional well being than schools can.; 6/22/18, 5:24 PM
Tina848 said...: Were the parents taking it seriously enough? If they knew the school wasn't doing a great job, why not remove the kid from school? Home school - web based, or tutors? Did you get a lawyer to intervene? Have her stay home? rescue her from her torment? I never understand why parents keep sending their kids to a TOXIC school environment when transfers, private schools, or other online options are available.

Was the child depressed and needed mental health assistance? It seems there is a lot of blame to go around here.; 6/22/18, 5:32 PM
Unknown said...: Exactly, Tina! Yes, it seems particularly harsh because no parent should ever bury a child under any circumstance. Yes, the story indicates some obvious culpability on the part of the school, but the buck stops - it has to stop - with the party most able to control the outcome.

This thread has included all sorts of remedial steps that could have been taken. I'm sure this girl's parents will be haunted by every one not taken. I truly mourn for them.; 6/22/18, 6:22 PM
Jupiter said...: bagoh20 said...

"Just exactly what would you do that is legal, and fair to all including people accused of bullying who may or may not be guilty of it, and does that come with a guarantee that nobody will kill themselves or sue your school over it's magical new policy?"

I repeat; It amazes me how many people are prepared to blithely point out that it is impossible for schools to do what they must do if they are to be tolerable, without concluding that schools are and will remain intolerable.; 6/22/18, 6:38 PM
Jupiter said...: And much as it pains me to come to Igna's defense, I'm a big kid now, and I can take care of myself. I've hammered her a whole Hell of a lot harder than what she just gave me. Doesn't faze her. The bitch is impervious, that's her real mental cruelty. You hit her with a zinger that ought to make her grandmother's lawn turn brown and die, and she just bumbles along her way like Mr. MaGoo. Drives me nuts.

And that's kind of the point. If mean old Igna was really getting to me, I could take my keyboard and go home, and the same goes for her. The State is not compelling us to come to this virtual space, and read the vicious things other people say about the vicious things we say. Anyway, we're grown-ups and we can take it. We may even enjoy it.

Kids don't have our iron self-regard, our quick wits (ahem), our hard-earned recognition that no one's opinion is worth getting upset over. And they can't leave when they want, and they have to go back before they're ready. School is an awful thing, and it should be done away with.; 6/22/18, 6:49 PM
Jupiter said...: Of course, it isn't going to do away with itself, but my own recent experience with home-schooling gives me some hope. There are more and more people Just Saying No to school, and as a result, there are more and more resources available for homeschoolers. You can put together an excellent program, tailored for your child, without a lot of hassle.

I like to say that public education is like public transportation. Maybe better than nothing, but it seldom goes where you want to go, and when it does, it takes too long to get their. The first thing people do when they can afford it is buy their own, and there is no time like the present. If your kids aren't criminals, don't send them to prisons.; 6/22/18, 6:56 PM
Robert Cook said...: "I like to say that public education is like public transportation. Maybe better than nothing, but it seldom goes where you want to go, and when it does, it takes too long to get their."

Depends on where you live. I think the public transportation in NYC is just dandy! I haven't had to burden myself with owning a car for nearly 40 years!; 6/22/18, 7:01 PM
Unknown said...: did you order the CODE RED?; 6/22/18, 8:33 PM
Jay Vogt said...: Eric @ 11;20
I'm not sure if you're checking back in or not, but thanks for sharing the story from your youth.
But mostly I wanted to say that I think your son must be lucky to have you as a dad.
As you know developing the skills to deal with adverse social situations unfortunately come to each of us in its own time.; 6/22/18, 9:26 PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Inga's idea of a taunt is to tell commenters they were bullied as children. "Ha, ha, you were bullied, loser!" That's something a bully would do. My analysis of Inga as a passive-aggressive Mean Girl is correct.; 6/22/18, 11:48 PM
traditionalguy said...: Nice discussion of the old days when mean assholes made their targets feel rejected. We call that bullying. But That bullying is the last war. TODAY's war is organized and lead female gangs that physically assault other girls to create a private child abuse hell. Today that is covered up so well by the useless and silly, intentionally blind, school authorities that none of tonight's commenters even know that is the problem.; 6/23/18, 1:41 AM