"... and spurns both accommodations and entangling alliances (including the ones that conservative Catholics have forged with libertarian-inflected right-wing political movements).... [I]t’s the pope’s traditionalist adversaries who are more likely to don the sort of 'heavenly' garb being feted and imitated at the Met — while from his own simple choice of dress to his constant digs at overdressed clerics and fancy traditionalists, the pope believes that baroque Catholicism belongs in a museum or at a costume gala, and that the church’s future lies in the simple, the casual, the austere and the plain.... Francis and other would-be modernizers are right, and have always been right, that Catholic Christianity should not trade on fear. But a religion that claims to be divinely established cannot persuade without a lot of fascination, and far too much of that has been given up, consigned to the museum, as Western Catholicism has traced its slow decline.... [T]here is no plausible path [forward] that does not involve more of what was displayed and appropriated and blasphemed against in New York City Monday night, more of what once made Catholicism both great and weird, and could yet make it both again."
From
"Make Catholicism Weird Again" by Ross Douthat (NYT).
Cannot persuade without a lot of fascination....
The etymology of "fascination" takes us back to a Latin word that means
spells and
witchcraft. The oldest meaning (now obsolete) is "The casting of a spell; sorcery, enchantment" (OED). Another old meaning is "The action and the faculty of fascinating their prey attributed to serpents, etc." (Example from 1848: "The fascination of the serpent on the bird held her mute and frozen.") The meaning we think of when we hear the word is "irresistibly attractive influence." Examples, from Nathaniel Hawthorne's
"Marble Faun" (1860):
Donatello, of whose presence she was possibly not aware, now pressed closer to her side; and he, too, like Miriam, bent over the low parapet and trembled violently. Yet he seemed to feel that perilous fascination which haunts the brow of precipices, tempting the unwary one to fling himself over for the very horror of the thing; for, after drawing hastily back, he again looked down, thrusting himself out farther than before.
Posts
83 comments:
Ross Douthat is becoming a pompous ass. Token “conservatives” do not age well at the NYT.
I wonder if Ross Douthat watched the "Young Pope" TV series.
Going back to the Latin Mass would be a start. Not likely with this "Pope."
[T]here is no plausible path [forward] that does not involve more of what was displayed and appropriated and blasphemed against in New York City Monday night, more of what once made Catholicism both great and weird"
If the Met Gala points to the only plausible path, there is no plausible path.
Paganism's revenge.
The Orthodox are also Catholic. But they threw out the pope a thousand years ago.
Douthat fancies himself an educated guy. He should write like it.
It is the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics. He keeps misusing the word Catholic to describe a subset.
"Going back to the Latin Mass would be a start."
"Cardinal Allenby, Do you have any latin to say about Pope Francis?"
"What. More latin words? The revolt in the Vatican played a decisive role in the culture campaign."
"Yes, but about about Pope Francis himself."
"No, I didn't know him well, you know."
I'd recommend more tits.
Feed the poor? Nah. Put the famous wealthy elite in expensive clothes and parade them around for another self-adulation prom.
Come worship your betters.
Catholics lost Latin when they prounounced C's as soft.
Lets move the tenets of Christ out of Catholicism and make it about something else. Something better. Hillarywoodlanders in full glorious costume.
The Catholic Church (to which I belong) cannot thrive by trying to be more progressive than progressive churches. It cannot thrive by trying to be more protestant. It cannot thrive by being more like modern "mega-churches."
It can thrive only by being what it is. Embracing what it is. By returning to its traditions.
Yes, the Latin Mass would be a start.
The Catholic Church should be itself. And proudly so.
Oh, and ignoring everything I just said, we probably should let priests marry, or else we'll have no native priests anymore.
I'd recommend more tits.
and more leg. and more ass.
Mr Douthat will, I imagine, suffer the usual fate of a prophet, in NYT land.
Douthat writes, "For this, as for his doctrine-shaking innovations, Francis has won admiring press. But as with the last wave of Catholic revolution, there is little evidence that the modernizing project makes moderns into Catholics. (The latest Gallup data, for instance, shows American Mass attendance declining faster in the Francis era.)"
The lesson conservatives (political, moral, religious, etc.) must learn again and again.
Doing things to win the admiration of the press, of liberals, of 'our betters' never, never, never wins you anything. You never really get their respect or admiration and you lose the respect and admiration of your core constituency.
How do people not get this?
There is no accommodating the demands of the left. Never. Treat them like simple-minded children. They may speak, they may express their opinion, but never make the mistake of answering to them or worse, changing your behavior to try to win their favor.
Uugh, why is this so hard?
"The Orthodox are also Catholic. But they threw out the pope a thousand years ago. "
Not being of either sect, but that isn't how I understand it. Rather, that up through the fall of Rome, there were essentially 5 different Christian churches, of various strengths - I believe Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and maybe Antioch. After the fall of Rome to the barbarians, the Roman church expanded in influence to fill the temporal void, so by the time of Mohammad, Rome was the first of equals, and Constantinople second, as a result of the two cities having been the two imperial capital. But, then, Islam very quickly conquered the territory around the other main churches, leaving most of Christianity split between Rome and Constantinople, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
"Catholics lost Latin when they prounounced C's as soft."
Agreed. I was trained with a classic pronunciation, and always had a hard time understanding spoken Roman Catholic Latin. Could read it fine, just had a hard time with the spoken.
[T]here is no plausible path [forward] that does not involve more of what was displayed and appropriated and blasphemed against in New York City Monday night, more of what once made Catholicism both great and weird"
If the Met Gala points to the only plausible path, there is no plausible path.
Paganism's revenge.
He means more weirdness, less T&A.
I really enjoy coming to work with my forehead smeared with a cross on Ash Wednesday. Partly as a gesture to God as some very weak testimony by this extremely flawed vessel. But also as a glorious way to smuggle fine medieval terror into the PC workplace.
(They haven't ruled that illegal. Yet.)
The liberal sect of the Pro-Choice Church speaks.
Hawthorne did not understand Catholicism.
A friend converted and her Presbyterian mother called it "spells and bells." The heirs of Cornwall, the Puritans, and Luther won't get Douthat.
Umberto Eco. Macs are Catholic. DOS is Protestant.
"The fact is that the world is divided between users of the Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers. I am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that DOS is Protestant. Indeed, the Macintosh is counterreformist and has been influenced by the "ratio studiorum" of the Jesuits. It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how they must proceed step by step to reach - if not the Kingdom of Heaven - the moment in which their document is printed. It is catechistic: the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple formulae and sumptuous icons. Everyone has a right to salvation.
DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation. To make the system work you need to interpret the program yourself: a long way from the baroque community of revelers, the user is closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment.
You may object that, with the passage to Windows, the DOS universe has come to resemble more closely the counterreformist tolerance of the Macintosh. It's true: Windows represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions.....
And machine code, which lies beneath both systems (or environments, if you prefer)? Ah, that is to do with the Old Testament, and is Talmudic and cabalistic."
"we probably should let priests marry, or else we'll have no native priests anymore."
Yes, that is necessary.
He is correct. Retreating from what the organization is is not the answer.
"I was trained with a classic pronunciation"
But then you have to do the V's as W's thing, and "vidi veni vici" becomes "waynee weedee weekee." Horrible!
"The Catholic Church (to which I belong) cannot thrive by trying to be more progressive than progressive churches. It cannot thrive by trying to be more protestant. It cannot thrive by being more like modern "mega-churches.""
Agreed. From a Protestant point of view, the major doctrinal difference between these two branches of the western church, is that Protestants essentially reject Roman "sacred traditions", trying to base their theology on original meaning, or at least as understood in the first 3-400 years of Christianity. Theologically, if doctrine can't be found within the pages of the Bible, it is suspect for most Protestants. This includes, in particular, rejection of the power of the priestly caste. I would suggest that much of the allure of the Roman church is its baroque complexity, stretching back for two millennia of tradition. When that is stripped off, what do its adherents have left? I would suggest little that would distinguish it from Protestantism. And, on those grounds, a modern Roman Catholic, absent its traditions, would be at a significant disadvantage. First, Protestants have a 400 year head start on being Protestants. And secondly, a rigid top down hierarchy, such as the Roman Catholic Church has, is far less nimble, and able to respond quickly, to changing trends and needs. In short, they will never be able to out Protestant the Protestants.
If he means it should be in-your-face, he is right.
Imagine a proper fiesta in San Francisco, of its patron Saint Francis of course, down Market Street with hooded cofradia, Franciscan friars, candles, the lot.
Go medieval on the world.
"Imagine a proper fiesta in San Francisco, of its patron Saint Francis of course, down Market Street with hooded cofradia, Franciscan friars, candles, the lot."
Does San Francisco not have any processions? Boston's Little Italy used to have them.
"But then you have to do the V's as W's thing, and "vidi veni vici" becomes "waynee weedee weekee." Horrible!"
Don't see the problem. That is how G. Julius Caesar (with a soft J and hard C) said it a bit over two millennia ago.
But, then, I drive everyone around me by pronounciating "Vail" with a /f/ sound, instead of/v/, since it was heavily German, Austrian, and Swiss in its early years (and I actually knew one of the Vails, descended from the highway engineer for whom the pass was named). Plus, we always thought that Vail was extraordinary pretentious.
Michael K: Going back to the Latin Mass would be a start. Not likely with this "Pope."
That could get my heathen arse back in the pew. There is no Tridentine Mass within convenient driving distance for me. Every time I wander into a Catholic church the service seems to have gotten even more repugnantly saccharine and, saints preserve us, more holy-rollin'. The handshaking stuff was bad enough (2-5 minute kaffeeklatsch, because I guess 45 straight minutes abiding in sacred time is asking too much). But last time I went to Mass they were doing that upraised-arms/palms-up (and some even holding their upraised hands with their neighbors) shtick during the pater noster, like bloomin' Prod fundies. What next? Glossolalia? Snake handling?
Where's the Spanish Inquisition when you need it?
I did recently get to attend a Latin Mass while traveling - Saint-Germain l'Auxerrois. (You can take a drone-tour of the interior here.) I had this vague notion that it would be full of weirdo rad-trads, but pas du tout!, it was packed with be-jeaned young families, and, surprisingly, the majority appeared to be native French types. Even my husband (bless his papist idolatry-scuzzing proddy soul) owned that it was a Fine Thing. Even if they were a bit overly-enthusiastic with the incense.
"Does San Francisco not have any processions?"
Pretty much just those guys in the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who march around on Easter.
Bruce to Freeman: "But then you have to do the V's as W's thing, and "vidi veni vici" becomes "waynee weedee weekee." Horrible!"
Don't see the problem. That is how G. Julius Caesar (with a soft J and hard C) said it a bit over two millennia ago.
Don't see the problem, either. There's classical Latin, and the Church Latin that arose from later vernacular Latin. Vs and soft Cs sees for Mass, and Wae Wictus for classical stuff (and extracting tribute from your defeated enemies).
Coming from one of the other major Christian sects that is centralized with a priesthood (the Mormons) it's fascinating to me to see the Catholic's flail about. I feel sorry for them, I really do. I also wonder what would happen if Benedictine came out of retirement--that would be something to see.
But would definitely be what the Catholics need, frankly. Ditch the current marxist freak and go back to the John Paul II style of Papacy.
Vance: But would definitely be what the Catholics need, frankly. Ditch the current marxist freak and go back to the John Paul II style of Papacy.
A Medici or Borgia would be more useful at this juncture.
No proper fiesta in SF in modern times, other than on occasion in a few parishes/ schools.
What would be in-your-face would be a whole city -Archdiocese procession down the main drag, Market Street, as they do on Gay Day or Chinese New Years. These have turned out to be the only such civic parades left. The July 4 and Columbus day parades used to go down Market street, but both are gone or relegated to a neighborhood.
All such civic things have been disappearing - the "bowling alone" syndrome, plus cultural erasure/dispersal.
what's with the fascination with the Latin Mass? It hasn't been a thing since before I was born.
What Catholicism needs to do is be Catholic. Stop making devils deals with temporal powers, like the Democrats or Red China. Call out "Catholic" politicians
In the big cities, Buwaya, but not the small towns.
A few years ago I happened to be in Siren WI on the Fourth of July. They were having a parade. At the head of the parade were the vets carrying an American Flag. Everyone who was lined up on the side of the street to watch the parade stood up and put their hand over their heart. I hadn't seen that done in years, not since I was a child in the 1960s.
"No proper fiesta in SF in modern times, other than on occasion in a few parishes/ schools. What would be in-your-face would be a whole city -Archdiocese procession down the main drag,"
That would be fabulous. I've been to some processions in the US like the one in Boston's Little Italy. Festive and beautiful. And great restaurants and bakeries are nearby.
All such civic things have been disappearing - the "bowling alone" syndrome, plus cultural erasure/dispersal.
Chicago has two St Patrick's Day parades. One downtown with the usual politicians. The other is in the Beverly area south west and is all about the Irish neighbors. That is the real parade and is a big deal. They stopped it for a couple of years because there was too much drinking and rowdy behavior but it has started up again.
The Chicago Irish have moved west as crime took over the old area where I grew up but the traditions continue.
Hard to resist Latin and incense.
"If the Met Gala points to the only plausible path, there is no plausible path"
Yeah, surrender as change. Ok.
"What's with the fascination with the Latin Mass? It hasn't been a thing since before I was born."
Fundamentalism seems to be a strong draw for other religions. Better to have a core of dedicated followers than a legion of the basically indifferent.
The Pope needs to get the Catholic Church out of politics. He needs to reconvert Europe.
The problem with the Catholic Church is a large part of the priesthood are gay male progressives. And they tend to be far more fervent in pursuit of the progressive than the pursuit of souls.
"Don't see the problem. That is how G. Julius Caesar (with a soft J and hard C) said it a bit over two millennia ago."
I don't care how he said it; to an English speaker it sounds comical, and it seems obvious that it wasn't intended comically, so no thanks. (Don't get me wrong--I still think classical is worth knowing. I only prefer that it isn't often used. Ha!)
I for one love the "bowling alone" culture.
I was at the Met show yesterday. Intellectually, it is a bit like the Glass Bead Game--playing with pretty pieces without knowing, either intellectually or spiritually, what they mean.
My favorite dumb moment was a wall text--presumably written by a curator with purportedly scholarly interests--identified Mary as "The Bride of Christ."
As I Catholic I can see that we Catholics might be irrational but we are not illogical: Mary is Jesus' mother; she is thus not the bride of Christ. The church is the bride of Christ.
The problem with the Catholic Church is a large part of the priesthood are gay male progressives. And they tend to be far more fervent in pursuit of the progressive than the pursuit of souls.
That is why married priests would help but Anglican priests can marry and most are just as leftist.
Blogger David Begley said...
The Pope needs to get the Catholic Church out of politics. He needs to reconvert Europe.
John Paul II tried to stamp out Liberation Theology but it has survived him and maybe banished the last Pope.
Blogger is more screwed up than usual this morning.
and that the church’s future lies in the simple, the casual, the austere and the plain..
In which case, the RCC quickly becomes Protestant in spirit. There are already enough Protestant sects, & one desires such a liturgical aesthetic one should make haste to join them.
No, the genius of the RCC is that it understands that we experience God's presence just like we experience everything else -- through the senses. All of them. While the Reformers tended to see preaching as almost sacramental, The Word Made Manifest, the RCC saw it as only part of the Sales & Marketing package.
The truth is the cultural patrimony of the RCC is unrivaled by any other human organization. Its art, its music, its architecture, its theology, its casuistry (in the good sense). For some stupid reason, it also has a modern clergy that either mostly despise or are embarrassed by this wealth of riches.
The Church needs a Shock & Awe campaign. Pull out the Thomas & the Bonaventure & the Meister Eckhart & make the stupid vapid mackerel snapper rug-rats read 'em. Sing Palestrina & Lassus & DesPrez at mass on holy days. Teach every kid in Catholic school Latin (What? It's gonna hurt 'em to understand grammar?). Let every Catholic know that we've fucked up an awful lot in our history, but that we saved philosophy, science, & logic in the Roman West. We invented modern musical notation. Every law book in a Western European country is based on what the RCC transmuted from ancient Rome.
All Catholics need to understand that within the sacred tradition -- all of it -- of the RCC lies the possible salvation of his soul. This needs to be preached & promulgated apologetically to at least the Catholic world, if not the world in general.
In short, they will never be able to out Protestant the Protestants.
The Protestants will soon be gone, as will most of the Catholics. The vestigial RC church will survive until it is needed to restore civilization after the next Gotterdammerung.
Using the Met Gala as the starting point for a discussion about a faith community seems a bit odd, as does putting the focus entirely on the Church's success as an institution rather than a community of faith. In many ways, it's the same focus that a corporate executive would have in writing an annual report. For those inclined to a different view, there is always the Benedict option.
Ritual -- all of it, music, architecture, lighting, dress, incense, language, etc., appealing to all of the senses and every aspect of the human person -- is a major part of the religious experience. The church I attend in Brooklyn is under the auspices of the Oratory of St Philip Neri, and the Oratorians are well known for putting a considerable emphasis on the glories of traditional Catholic ritual. It satisfies the soul (and fills the church) but it remains just a means to an end.
The Chicago Irish have moved west as crime took over the old area where I grew up but the traditions continue.
The neighborhoods west of Western Ave. (route of the South Side parade) are all white and predominantly Irish. Including Mt. Greenwood. I attended the parade this year. In the neighborhood from Western Ave (west side, the one that's wet, with all the Irish pubs) to the cemeteries (where virtually every headstone bears and Irish name) a great many houses were flying Irish flags and there were backyard parties galore. East of Western (the side that's dry) to the RR tracks is affluent, mixed race, but predominantly Irish; lots of Tricolor flags there too. That's Christ the King Parish. It's the Irish from further north that have fled from neighborhoods that are now black or Mexican. They decamped to southwest burbs such as Palo and Orland and also the town I live in. The parade was fun, BTW. It was held in honor of the CPD cop who got gunned down a several months ago.
I agree that the RCC needs to admit married priests. I'm otherwise a traditionalist. I love the Latin mass but I'm okay with English. But the priesthood is in serious need of repair. A predominantly gay and a straight-but-effete priesthood will destroy the church and so will a leftist SJW-oriented priesthood. I rarely attend mass at my parish church because the priests are effete and liberal/left. There is always the suspicion that the effete SJW priests are gay and possibly pedophiles. Supposedly the Church has eradicated the pedophile element and tightened screening of candidates for the seminaries but I have my doubts. A lot of Catholic men share my doubts. Gay-pedophile priests nearly destroyed the RCC and the wreckage remains in the form of suspicion, anger, and hostility. We need manly men as priests and the only way to get that is by admitting married men to the priesthood. That's my rant for the day.
Michael K:
Btw, Canaryville (Chicago's version of Hell's Kitchen in the 70s-80s) and neighboring Bridgeport are still Irish. And the North(west) Side Irish are thriving and staying put. In the last census, e.g., Edison Park on the far NW side took honors as the Chicago's most Irish neighborhood. So there's that.
YoungHegelian @12:40, excellent post, thank you.
It's the Irish from further north that have fled from neighborhoods that are now black or Mexican.
The Beverly area, where the parade was, is full of refugees from South Shore where I grew up.
My sister and her husband live a couple of blocks from 107th and Western so they walk over to watch. Her daughter was parade queen or princess back when she was in high school at Mother McCauley.
Her husband is a retired Chicago cop so they had to be in the city limits.
Her daughter, who is an OR nurse at Rush on the transplant team, lives with her husband and child on the northwest side.
They have had some crime problems up there.
I had her son out to Tucson for a week with his son at Easter. I am trying to lure him to Arizona and get him out of Chicago.
"Her son" meaning my nephew.
Supposedly the Church has eradicated the pedophile element and tightened screening of candidates for the seminaries but I have my doubts
Me too. Have you read, "Goodbye Good Men ?
As an undergrad English major at Duke ('71), took a course on tragedy offered by the Divinity School taught by a man named Poteet, and have never forgotten his definition of fascination - the state of being equally attracted and repelled by something.
Thanks, Michael K., for your comments. I haven't read Goodbye Good Men and I won't because I know that it'll make be angry even as it breaks my heart. As for Chicago's NW side, there's crime there sure just like there's crime almost everywhere but overall it's a very good area with good quality of life and several neighborhoods are as statistically as safe as any decent suburb (not, e.g., Melrose Park, say). If I were to move into the city I'd move to Mt. Greenwood, the neighborhood between Western and the cemeteries. But I won't move into the city, those days are gone. I live in a totally crime-free burb and a large percentage of the residents are the children or grandchildren of Irish who fled their going-to-hell South Side neighborhoods e.g. Marquette Park and whatnot. Good old Irish-Cat neighborhood vibe like the City was back in the day. That said I can understand why young guys like your nephew might not want to leave, Chicago is still big-time fun if you're young and flexible and know your way around. For instance at the South Side parade it was just great to be there amidst all those celebrating Chicago Irish, made me pine for the Olde Days which are gone forever alas.
One of the reasons progressive types so dislike Benedict XVI was because of the new directive for seminaries he put in place in 2005 that barred candidates with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies”.
I would suggest that much of the allure of the Roman church is its baroque complexity, stretching back for two millennia of tradition.
Yes, many years ago I took my wife to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and Mass was just beginning so we sat with the congregation. By the end of the Mass, she wanted to convert.
" it was just great to be there amidst all those celebrating Chicago Irish,"
You have not had the full experience until you have spent a week or a month in Grand Beach, MI where the Irish from the south side still go, in summer even if they don't live on the south side anymore.
My sister and her family still go and I went with them a couple of years ago. We might do it again.
Lots of Irish flags in front of houses. Mayor Daley's house was up the street.
Some Daley hater threw a incendiary bomb one time and burned down the house next door.
Never understood traditionalist fixation with Latin Mass. On the few occasions when I have attended Latin Massses in the last decade it appears the parishioners are saying the rosary to themselves or just lost. What is the point of a service in a language the participants don't understand any more, if they ever did? And I say this as someone who had 6 years of Latin in grade school and a refresher course in college, and who appreciated the pageantry of Latin High Mass as an alter boy.
I think the priesthood represented a path of advancement when Catholics were discriminated against and single (gay or asexual) men were looked down on. Now Catholics, gays and singles face no obstacles, and the loneliness of the priesthood with priests so spread out is stark.
"Not being of either sect, but that isn't how I understand it. Rather, that up through the fall of Rome, there were essentially 5 different Christian churches, of various strengths - I believe Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and maybe Antioch."
There were different traditions but the Bishops were in communion with each other. Rome's issue, besides the filioque clause, was trying to turn a communion in a strict hierarchy. Pushing for recognition of the filioque clause over the objections of the communion of apostolic bishops led to a east/west split. Rome anathematized the East. The East anathematized Rome. But the bishops of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch stayed in communion with each other without a centralized head (other than Christ).
The biggest testimony against the Christian church is the division between the different factions who affirm the ecumenical creeds. There's easily room for different traditions within the larger Christian umbrella. There's a good possibility of reconciliation between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox churches within the next 100 years.
Michael K:
I did in fact spent many weekends on the Irish Riviera and what times those were. Grand Beach was too far up, my friends and I usually went to Long Beach IN and stayed at the Mother Goose Cottages. Summer of 67 I'll never forget getting into a huge brawl with a bunch of guys from Chicago Vocational HS in the neighboring cottage. They wanted us to give them our beer (8-ounce Schlitz Malt, aka "The Green Death")and we said no and fisticuffs ensued. Afterward we all hung out together with our fat lips and bloody noses drinking beer. We became the best of friends if only for that weekend. Good times, good times.
"There were different traditions but the Bishops were in communion with each other."
I think that is what The Council of Nicaea was about.
One of my close friends from grammar school's folks had a house in Long Beach. A cousin who was in the Battle of the Bulge lived in Long Beach until he died two years ago at 88.
Michael K:
I should mention that same weekend when we had our encounter with the CVS boyos I also met a beautiful Polish girl from South Shore HS. We had ended up dating for awhile. She was a gorgeous curvy Polish blond I'm sure you're familiar with the type. What a weekend that was. Imprinted in my memory, it is.
" I also met a beautiful Polish girl from South Shore HS. "
The only surprise is South Shore HS. Most of the beautiful Polish girls I knew went to Catholic high school.
My high school girlfriend went to Purdue from Mercy HS, got her BS in Chemical Engineering and married a classmate of mine,. We did not stay close when I went to California to college.
She still looks good and lives in California
She looks very good indeed. Come to think, maybe that Polish girl was just from South Shore the neighborhood not the high school. But I think she said HS because she talked about being in an illegal sorority. Did they have illegal sororities in the Catholic HS? Maybe she got kicked out of the Catholic HS because she was a bad girl. And she was indeed a bad girl. In the best way.
Maybe she got kicked out of the Catholic HS because she was a bad girl. And she was indeed a bad girl. In the best way.
"Good girls go to heaven. Bad girls go everywhere."
Probably just as well, Bobbie was a good girl. Those were the norms in those days although I did know a couple of outliers.
Things had loosened up by the time I made my debut in South Shore. Late 60s, and all that. Although, by today's standards (if that is the word) it was still pretty tame.
My father sold our house about 1963 or 64. After he was mugged on the front porch by a could of you know whos. He managed to get the door open and the dog chased them away.
Too bad. It was a great neighborhood. Now, even the blacks are leaving because of the violence.
A couple of....
Cooke at 1209, Thanks for pointing out that nonsense at the actual exhibition. If the Holy See had seconded experts (as well as loaning treasures from the various archives) etc etc, to ensure that such blatant errors were avoided, that I could have understood and even approved.
Am only now catching up.
People do know that celebrations of the Traditional Mass can be found in many places across the US?
And what Angel-Dyne remarked at 1028: at the rate the mainstream dioceses and parishes in France, Belgium etc etc are declining, the majorities of clergy in those regions are going to be cassock-wearing, Traditional Mass-celebrating, procession-organising neo-Tridentinists within fifty years, and the churches that are left will be filled with young married couples and their numerous children-- some such statistical prediction has been calculated, anyway. (Next time, in Paris, AD, try St-Eugène-Ste Cécile, in the Ninth, near the Conservatory.)
Have been exploring Gab, as a potential alternative to Twitter: they have recently allowed the creation of 'groups', and so there is now a 'Roman Catholics' group. One of the most disheartening things I've seen there is a comment from someone, doubtless of sincere faith, who quite without any evident embarrassment admitted that she didn't have any Latin at all, although she recognised St Michael's name in the collect I'd posted. Even at my Novus Ordo parish, most everyone at least pretends to have the Latin and Greek of the ordinary of the Mass. What an awful place the world is, tsk.
Very late to the party, as usual.
Michael K/Roughcoat:
If you don't already, you should know that the South Side parade was originally centered on 79th and Ashland, less than a mile from where I grew up. It had nothing to do with the hoity-toity folk in Beverly. And (the real) Mayor Daley was known to show up back in those days.
Ironically, if that's the right word, the new SHOTIME series "The Chi" is supposedly set in the same area (i.e., centered on 79th Street between Ashland and Halsted), though filmed elsewhere, to the extent it's filmed in Chicago. Don't have any great desire to see it, though I have recently binge-watched Shameless (supposedly set in Canaryville, but also filmed elsewhere).
Our expanded neighborhood centered on Ashland a bit to the north was originally mostly a combo of Irish, Germans, and Italians (with the Italians based in St. Mary of Mt. Carmel, a "mission" parish with its church and school at 67th and Hermitage), with a smattering of various others. Including my father's Presbyterian Scottish family living on 70th and Winchester since the 1920s. The Germans were mostly east of Ashland (including my mother's family, but further to the north) and were mostly gone by the mid-60's.
West of Western, there were a lot of Slavs, particularly Lithuanians. There is some sort of Lithuanian monument around 63rd and Western, though you'd be hard pressed to find many Lithuanians around there these days. My impression (partly from the South Side group on Facebook (ugh)) is that there are still a fair number of white people around Marquette Park and the area is a lot safer than Englewood/West Englewood to the east. And the area is otherwise perhaps more hispanic than black at this point.
So it wasn't all just "little Ireland."
Roughcoat is correct that there was a huge movement from that area to the southwest suburbs, but my two oldest sisters had moved to Tinley Park and Orland well before the "white flight." The flight just greatly accelerated a movement that had already been going on.
I would recommend "What Parish Are You From" by Eileen McMahon. Starts with a very general overview of, first, the Irish in the U.S. and, then, the Irish in Chicago. But the bulk of the book might be titled the "Rise and Fall of St. Sabina," a parish that was at the heart of the original parade and much else in that part of the South Side. St. Sabina still exists as a parish, with a pastor I know you would both despise. Our old church also still survives, now as "St. Benedict the African (west)."
It's died down a lot, but there's also a Facebook group for St. Kilian's, just to the south of St. Sabina. Some folks also maintaining contacts there (and one who has also moved back). One can hope there's some daylight somewhere.
--gpm
gpm:
Thanks for your comments. So much to talk about but no time for it today. Just this: I used to hang out in Marquette Park but don't/won't now. The many Irish pubs that were in the have all closed down including especially Mary Lyons' place, which she moved to Blue Island. You're correct in saying it's not as dangerous as Englewood but that's a low bar -- Baghdad isn't as dangerous as Englewood. I drive through Englewood on my commute to work, btw, because I hate taking the I-55 more than I hate the dangers of driving through Englewood. I still drop by Kelly's Pub on Wallace in Canaryville from time to time, but less and less because I've gotten too old for that kind of action. I have indeed read "What Parish Are You From," I own a copy of it, it's a great book, but ultimately sad and infuriating. The less said about St. Sabina and Fr. Pfleger the better. There is still daylight: A few weeks ago I went to Tufano's Vernon Park Tap near Taylor St. and when I sidled up to the bar and Italian-looking guy turned to me and said, "Hey, Irish, what parish are you from?" That brought a smile to my face. You still hear it.
the South Side parade was originally centered on 79th and Ashland,
I think it actually began, or at least was held when I was in high school, at 79th and Throop Street. Some of my high school buddies at St Leo, painted the center stripe of the street Orange one year as a prank.
We used to hang out at St Sabina which had a teen dance. Christ the King also had one.
Still in Moderation Purgatory, I guess. Maybe it's appropriate given the topic and all.
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