The action came two days after Mr. Trump backed away from his demand that Mr. Kim completely abandon his nuclear arsenal without any reciprocal American concessions.Does this mean that Kim did what Trump had publicly demanded after Trump made a public statement that he was not demanding it?
UPDATE: "President Trump has notified Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader, that he has canceled their much-anticipated meeting, which was set for June 12" (NYT).
Posts
391 comments:
1 – 200 of 391 Newer› Newest»Well, since the place had already collapsed, that's pretty darned convenient doncha know?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-collapse-may-be-out-of-action-china
North Korea threatens to reconsider historic summit with Trump after 'ignorant and stupid political dummy' Mike Pence compared the country to Libya
'We could surmise more than enough what a political dummy he is (Pence), as he is trying to compare the DPRK, a nuclear weapon state, to Libya that had simply installed a few items of equipment and fiddled around with them.'
Destroy the collapsed test site, two birds with one stone.
Plus the Trump fans will help spread your PR trick. Win win win.
1. The logical reason for KJU to be upset with the spectre of Libya is that the dictator of Libya, after abandoning his nuclear program, was gutted from the asshole forward, at the behest of Hillary "Veni Vidi Mori" Clinton. Thank you, Secretary Clinton. Not.
2. Lil, it's no secret that you're not as smart as you think you are, but you have company. Apparently, ALL the DPRK has lost is their national test site. If you believe they have already tested an effective design, a) they needn't test anymore, b) they can test in the ocean, in the air, in orbit, etc.
In fact the one test they must complete, I should think, to truly advertise an effective nuclear force, is to detonate a warhead at the end of an ICBM ride, to show that the entire integrated system works. They don't really need a mountain for that.
So the loss of the test site is minor, except that they may have also lost some, much, but surely not all of their nuclear braintrust (eg, somebody was minding the store at Yongbyon). Why don't you go on about that instead of pointing at presidential zits?
In case anyone has missed it, I call "a reasonable man" more accurately "ALillianHellMan" because every word he says is a lie including "a" and "the."
Didn't hurt that Trump also made some public comments indicating that maybe the summit wasn't going to happen on schedule.
Past N Korean policy: Make threats, be rewarded with dollars and goods.
Present N Korean policy: No reward for threats, try something else.
Excuse me - veni, vidi, obiit?
He’s making lemonade.
Bad Lieutenanat, they're not lies. Just confusion. It takes a long time for people who are thoroughly convinced of something to change their perspective. He's engaging in a dialogue. Those are not lies, those are alternative interpretations that you don't agree with.
Bad Lieutenant, every word he says is a lie
David Harsanyi (The Federalist) wrote a column mocking the lefties for taking the opposite position of Trump, no matter the position. (See marble mouth Pelosi defending MS-13).
ARM is afflicted with same disease. How could anyone on this green earth think the recent NORK developments are anything but a good sign? Why the lefties, of course. Because Trump.
If Pence was an “ignorant and stupid dummy” for mentioning Libya, what does that say for Hillary, who actually squandered United States credibility by perpetrating what happened in Libya? Lord we dodged a bullet that she isn’t president. What kind of gin do you think she guzzles all day? Tangueray Ten, just like HRH? She should be grateful that the presidency isn’t interfering with her true passions.
Troll central is scared shitless that this latest move to end the 68 year old Korean War might work and they will be slaughtered in the mid terms. It’s nice to have them right out front how little they care about America’s well being, or that of American kids who are deployed to Korea on the edge of war, and have been for decades.
The best they can do is to send ARM.
ARM exposes a big problem with the “Russian Collusion, win the midterms, impeach Trump” hope/game plan.
-Mike Pence
Imagine a quieter, more stately Trump
US/NK negotiations are not important and even less so "summits." We will know that Kim Jong'un and his government have got religion when they open their borders to their neighbors, especially SK, to any significant extent.
Seems to be a certain lack of confidence here in Trump's strategy. I simply posted the Nork's latest statements. Don't shoot the messenger. I am sure Trump is playing three dimensional chess with those dummies in N. Korea.
It's clearly a good first step by North Korea, whether it's primarily symbolic or not. The question is whether it will be followed up appropriately. Obviously too soon to tell for sure, but it seems likely that it will, considering the impact that sanctions have had, and will continue to have.
There was money to be had in Libyan oil. Sorry about that, Moammar!
Those are not lies, those are alternative interpretations that you don’t agree with.
You have to understand Bad Lieutenant, it’s almost impossible to make a man understand that which his partisan anger depends on him not understanding. When you throw in ARM’s simple mindedness, it's hopeless.
I can even predict his response to this, if any. It will be a junior high grade insult. Or possibly he will flat out reject it with some flat assertion, then finish with a rhetorical flourish, as if that is proof.
There was money to be had in Libyan oil. Sorry about that, Moammar!
That’s why Max Boot is so butt hurt about the election. Nothing that man loves like a good war for oil.
tim in vermont, simple mindedness
I can even predict his response to this, if any. It will be a junior high grade insult. Or possibly he will flat out reject it with some flat assertion, then finish with a rhetorical flourish, as if that is proof.
Human Fails Turing Test
Harley-Davidson workers stunned by plant closure after tax cut
See. Now that's what about ism
Does this mean that Kim did what Trump had publicly demanded after Trump made a public statement that he was not demanding it?
Destroying the country's nuclear test site and destroying the country's arsenal of nuclear weapons are two radically different actions.
First the insult, which he aped from me, not understanding that when I used it was flat out taxonomy then he went with implicit rejection straight to the rhetorical flourish.
Then he goes on about how badly the economy is doing under Trump! Is that your hope for the mid-terms? That the economy is bad? That unemployment is up? Good luck with that strategy.
North Korea said on Thursday that it had destroyed its only known nuclear test site...
So North Korea might have other nuclear test sites that it doesn't know about?
disARM: "Look, squirrel." (Harley Davidson)
Yo disARM, maybe next time bring up Ken Starr. That's relevant to this discussion.
tim in vermont said...
Those are not lies, those are alternative interpretations that you don’t agree with.
You have to understand Bad Lieutenant, it’s almost impossible to make a man understand that which his partisan anger depends on him not understanding. When you throw in ARM’s simple mindedness, it's hopeless.
I can even predict his response to this, if any. It will be a junior high grade insult. Or possibly he will flat out reject it with some flat assertion, then finish with a rhetorical flourish, as if that is proof.
5/24/18, 7:11 AM
I didn't know that you and I had a problem, Tim. Is that a flat assertion of a rhetorical flourish?
To address the original commenter, daskol:
1) your posts were cryptic ("Yes") and so I passed them by. Perhaps you should flesh out further.
2) you're new here, at least as a commenter under that nickname. ARM, who has had many guises on this blog, may not literally have "lied in every word," but his purpose in this board is to deceive, disrupt, and demoralize. Because he puts up a front of reasonability, he is better received than some more flaming tempers like the fellow now calling himself President PPT. The serpent in the garden sounded reasonable too.
I didn't know that you and I had a problem, Tim. Is that a flat assertion of a rhetorical flourish?
It was directed at ARM, sorry.
This Punch and Judy fake struggle is about the NORK's needed bragging rights. Kim has already agreed to unconditional surrender. But the NORK Military's Privileged class in a 70 year long Communist Dictatorship will try something to overthrow Kim if we do not renact a struggle to give him cover.
But like the preacher in the Monty Python skit whose skull opened up and showed the devil inside, when ARM shows his true face, it's "shit stains" all the way down.
The Times preporting the narrative that Trump doesn't deserve his Nobel Peace Prize.
The pissing party started early today.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
Bad Lieutenant, every word he says is a lie
5/24/18, 6:59 AM
You must have been a holy terror in the playground. Neener neener! Nuh-uh! I'm rubber you're glue! Pathetic.
Haha, Tim, you left out the comma between "understand" and "Bad" but I get you now ;-)
The pissing party started early today.
Well, I have work to do today, so I needed to get it out early...
In my heart, obviously, I know that Obama, Hillary, and John Kerry deserve all of the credit if this goes right, and Trump all of the blame if it goes wrong. All of us conservatives are like that, we don’t believe anything we say. Who could possibly?
"The pissing party started early today"
But were any Russian whores involved?
"Bad Lieutenant, every word he says is a lie "
Are we going to have another day of ARM hysteria ?
It's sort of like the Reuters poll. If the Democrats are doing well, ARM is benign.
If Democrats are losing, it's shit stains all the way down.
Don't discourage him, Doc, I like to watch him bleed. Is that so wrong?
Pence is no political 'dummy' but was unwise to make the statement he made. With Asians, it is always about saving face, gaining face, losing face.
Well, I thought this went well. A thoughtful and balanced discussion of the pros and cons of Trump's N. Korea strategy without any of the usual name calling. How often do you find that on the web?
LOL, I need to stay in the moment more ARM.
Fox had an interesting story about North Korea developing the missile launch site they have been using as an international tourist destination. Cuba has of course done that for half a century and gotten away with it, but The Fat Kid is no Fidel to the North Koreans, and it is difficult to see him allowing such an entry port for infectious bacilli to be built. Yet Fox showed pictures of high-rise hotels, etc., under construction.
This is just jockeying for position prior to the summit, but I do think Pence may have made a mistake in referencing Libya. Libya was a failure; the country did de-nuclearize, and then got left out to dry. That's... not the message you want to send a country you're trying to get to give up nukes.
But a discussion stars with more than just links from partisan outlets who have burned their credibility. And it is funny how there is no mention of Hillary’s War in ARM’s link. As if the fact that Khadaffy got a rifle barrel rammed up his ass while he was killed by American backed forces (thanks again, Hillary!) never crosses Kim’s mind.
It’s almost as if somebody is wearing partisan blinders. “MUST NOT ADMIT TO OBAMA ERRORS OF JUDGEMENT STOP NARRATIVE SAYS KOREAN WAR BEGUN BY TRUMP STOP NEVER MENTION THAT UN CREATED NORTH KOREA STOP MUST NEVER CREDIT TRUMP STOP
ARM: "Seems to be a certain lack of confidence here in Trump's strategy. I simply posted the Nork's latest statements. Don't shoot the messenger. I am sure Trump is playing three dimensional
chess with those dummies in N. Korea."
The North Korean ploys are simply China's way of attempting to gain leverage in the strategic trade negotiations with the US.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Which is why the US negotiators are maintaining our maximum pressure strategy on NK and giving the NK nothing all the while maintaining a firm stance within the larger bilateral/Nafta negotiations with China and doing the nonchalant shoulder shrugs with NK bluster.
Needless to say our resident lefties, fresh off their MS13 and Hamas support, immediately adopt the daily NK bluster as talking points.
Of course. When was the last time US lefties DIDNT adopt communist totalitarian regime talking points?
In previous "negotiations" with NK, the Kims toyed with us.
In the current "negotiations," we are at least trying to toy with them.
We'll see what happens, to quote a famous political philosopher.
Cut him some slack, Drago -- ARM still has a few hundred "Respect the divinity of MS-13!" bumper stickers to print out this morning.
Completely off topic but maybe of concern to Althouse. Legal Insurrection has been suddenly demonetized by Amazon, including withholding some money already earned. One of the excuses given by Amazon was that they promoted their Amazon portal as a means of getting revenue.
As a general concern it seems groups are organizing generally to demonetize and de platform conservatives, including the use of known hate groups like SPLC to provide advice.
Perhaps the democrats should draft Kim Jong Un as their next candidate for President?
Assuming he promises not to investigate Hillary and the Clinton Foundation of course.
Biggest plus from a democrat perspective? Complete Gun Control in North Korea.
Greg: "As a general concern it seems groups are organizing generally to demonetize and de platform conservatives..."
Yep.
ARM's buddies are simply preparing for November.....
”Well, I thought this went well. A thoughtful and balanced discussion of the pros and cons of Trump's N. Korea strategy without any of the usual name calling.”
Mission accomplished.
“Don't discourage him, Doc, I like to watch him bleed. Is that so wrong?”
Certainly not. The Lefty panic is delicious. Leavened with hypocrisy and seasoned with a heapin’ helpin’ of backfiring narratives, it’s absolutely sublime.
I just heard breaking news that Trump has cancelled the summit with Kim.
Drago said...
The North Korean ploys are simply China's way of attempting to gain leverage in the strategic trade negotiations with the US.
Nothing more, nothing less.
This is fairly close to the truth. Nothing the North Koreans say has much meaning because they have no skin in the game. They are China's pet. The US isn't going to start a war with China over North Korea.
The pet is a blind, lame, flea-bitten mongrel just one more incidence on incontinence away from being put down. China is not going to start a war with the US over North Korea.
Summit is off.
Trump sends letter to Kim Jung Un, cancelling summit:
“It’s inappropriate, at this time, to have this long planned meeting"
The Trump admin is making it very clear that the NK gambit by the Chinese will have ZERO impact on the US trade negotiators objectives and the Trump team is continuing to strongly target China's exploitation of the NAFTA loopholes (using Mexico and Canada as funnels to avoid taxes) as well as Chinese currency manipulation, intellectual property theft, etc.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the NK summit cancelled half a dozen times between now and June 12 (or whatever) by both sides and then every now and again the word will leak out that "yeah, both nations are still engaging in pre-Summit discussions"...as if nothing had changed...
Browndog, I just saw that after I hit send.
Not surprised.
Of course, the Summit is cancelled!!!....sort of...but we're still talking....
Standard negotiating tactics, but in this case DJT is actually using the most powerful levers the US has at our disposal...which were never used by previous Presidents.
So I guess Hawaii is probably already got incoming Nork nukes.
I love how Kim Jong Un threatens to cancel and Trump says Oh yeah, you can't quit, you're fired!
LOL
I expect this to last about 2 weeks before "new developments" moves the summit back onto the table...
Elegant negotiable. Kim has done that which he planned to do anyway, and in such a way as to make it look like a concession. Trump's statement the other day was intended to let Kim know that Trump didn't value the destruction of the test site as a concession because he knew they planned to destroy it anyway.
Both players a playing this well.
-sw
Trump's statement just basically called NK's bluff...again.
Sorry China. You just found out that this Trump guy really is different than previous President negotiating schmucks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeneps/status/999647233543991298
You always have to be willing to walk away.
"Of course, there is a strategic interest in toppling Gaddafi, as the Libyan leader has threatened to re-engage in international terrorism and resume his quest for nuclear weapons. But Obama missed it. After months of dithering, NATO is now clearly targeting Gaddafi, yet Obama is unwilling to say so, even though killing the brutish dictator is precisely the way to protect Libyan civilians. Instead, Obama seems more interested in pursuing an ideological abstraction, the gauzy “responsibility to protect” doctrine, rather than concrete U.S. interests. And we are now paying for this ideological frolic."
-John Bolton, 6/27/11
For someone who ran a campaign criticizing much of US foreign policy for the last 20 years, Trump made a colossal blunder in hiring John Bolton.
Bolton has previously bragged about destroying the Agreed Framework in favor of a failed strategy that saw the North withdraw from the NPT and test their first nuclear weapon in 2006. It was Bolton who foolishly invoked a "Libya model," which Trump later walked back while simultaneously suggesting that he did not fully understand what was meant by a "Libya model." Pence compounded the error by doubling down on an implicit threat of attack if a deal is not reached.
There was always a wide gulf in the American and North Korean positions even before negotiations started. Perhaps I need Scott Adams to explain this to me, but given that nuclear weapons are pretty much the only deterrent the North could possess against an attack, why would threats of being attacked lead you to give up your one defense against an attack?
Its so interesting how many little salesman "good cop" items in the official WH statement there are. Personal flattery, a nice "thank you" for releasing the hostages...but you know, we could put a bullet in your brain....and we don't like your tone.
Very DeNiro in Goodfellas. "you were a little disrepectful" "little bit...little bit"
Classic.
>>Harley-Davidson workers stunned by plant closure after tax cut
Are they relocating to North Korea? Is that your point?
J Farmer: "For someone who ran a campaign criticizing much of US foreign policy for the last 20 years, Trump made a colossal blunder in hiring John Bolton."
LOL
I'll wait to see what comes out of it.
But by all means, go right to blunders and failures.
Too funny.
But did Kim destroy the known-unknown or unknown-unknown sites?
J Farmer: "Perhaps I need Scott Adams to explain this to me..."
Why?
Your crystal ball has already given you all the answers.
Fantastic!
Well, this is going to put a dent in Trump's Nobel Peace Prize.
BTW, did you see the report that the US disinvited the Chinese from a major military exercise...just yesterday.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pentagon-disinvites-china-from-major-naval-exercise-over-south-china-sea-buildup/2018/05/23/8aea6f04-5ea1-11e8-b2b8-08a538d9dbd6_story.html?utm_term=.2c6c6bf20410
This is power negotiating using ALL the levers at the US' disposal.
@Drago:
LOL
I'll wait to see what comes out of it.
But by all means, go right to blunders and failures.
Too funny.
Well, for starters, Trump had to walk back a statement his National Security Adviser made and in the process revealed that he did not understand what his National Security Adviser was talking about.
So no summit, we got our prisoners back and the known nuke site collapsed.
And Kim got pomp, circumstance and a photo op.
Not tired of winning yet!
Field Marshall and Noted Self-Described MI Electoral Politics Expert Chuck: "Well, this is going to put a dent in Trump's Nobel Peace Prize."
Shhh, the big boys are negotiating.
And I'm sorry your boy Durbin has all but disappeared from the stage after his last smackdown from Trump!
LOL
Carry on LLR. And thank you once again for having briefly pondered joining the military when you were younger but didn't because "no draft". I'm sure there are many more children of conservative politicians you can go after to make up for your other....deficiencies...
>>Well, this is going to put a dent in Trump's Nobel Peace Prize.
That will never happen, even if he cures world hunger, brings peace, love, and understanding to the entire galaxy.
My prediction: If there truly is peace between North and South Korea, Rocket Boy will get the prize.
Just another example of the Nobel committee's collusion and interference in America's elections. (See Gore, A, and Carter, J).
J Farmer: "Well, for starters, Trump had to walk back a statement his National Security Adviser made and in the process revealed that he did not understand what his National Security Adviser was talking about."
zzzzzzzzzzz
Plus, I'm not sure Trump's socks precisely matched his tie.
J. Farmer said...
For someone who ran a campaign criticizing much of US foreign policy for the last 20 years, Trump made a colossal blunder in hiring John Bolton.
He's 'strong' on TV and fits the Trump brand. What's not to like? He fills the General Buck Turgidson role perfectly.
@Seeing Red:
And Kim got pomp, circumstance and a photo op.
All extremely valuable things for a cult of personality dictatorship.
Not tired of winning yet!
Except for that issue of North Korea's stockpile of nuclear weapons and missiles capable of reaching US territory.
@Drago:
Plus, I'm not sure Trump's socks precisely matched his tie.
If I am not mistaken the problem was the North's stockpile of nuclear weapons and the missiles with which to deliver them. We are no closer to solving that problem than we were six months ago.
The left rooting for N. Korea to keep it's nukes and continue starving it's people just to spite Trump surprises no one.
What surprises me is their inability or unwillingness to cloak it.
J. Farmer: "If I am not mistaken the problem was the North's stockpile of nuclear weapons and the missiles with which to deliver them. We are no closer to solving that problem than we were six months ago"
Fantastic.
Crystal Balls AND mind reading!
We have hit the jackpot with you! You are like some sort of online Carnac the Magnificent!
If I were you I would immediately make myself available for foreign policy/international business negotiations.
Hang that shingle now!
If you are smart, you could partner up with the LLR Chuck Institute for MI Electoral Politics Analysis. What a team you would make.
ARM could be your spokesman.
I think I have a Business Plan template right here....somewhere.....
>>What surprises me is their inability or unwillingness to cloak it.
I think Bush's invasion of Iraq was a mistake. But it did make clear which side the left in this country was rooting for.
They pretended to be anti-war, but they were really just anti-Bush.
And here we go again.
Trump just took Kim out of the drivers seat and into the baby seat.
I have a hunch the current nuclear test site needed to be demo'd anyway. The only question is whether and when they will start building at the next location. I mean, absent a certifiable deal, would expect anything else?
SK has no interest in invading NK. Too many headaches...
US is out of the invading game, except if the US is attacked. Iraq was an exception, and pretty much everyone agrees it was a mistake.
The Libya intervention/fiasco has the Europeans still paying for it. Obama led from behind on this, and it was one of the worst US foreign policy decisions ever. The US broke its promise to khadify, de nuke, and we will leave you alone.
Ukraine also de-nuked and got invaded.
@Drago:
Crystal Balls AND mind reading!
Funny. I was just thinking the same thing about you.
For example: "The North Korean ploys are simply China's way of attempting to gain leverage in the strategic trade negotiations with the US."
And you know this how?
Jersey Fled: "Trump just took Kim out of the drivers seat and into the baby seat."
Shhhhhh. LLR Chuck, ARM and J Farmer are on a roll.....(was it over when Germany bombed Pearl Harbor?....)
Ha. I never believed for a minute Trump would go through with it. Bolton and Pence may have played a part too. Kim will likely win the Nobel.
@Drago:
Here's a novel idea. What have I said that is incorrect?
J Farmer: "And you know this how?"
Because China is currently involved in Trade negotiations with the US and not getting the better of it based on reports of the extent of progress, the leverage the US is employing (based on reports and statements from our negotiators), the information emerging from the NAFTA negotiators (on all sides), etc.
Further, NK is China's little puppy and does whatever the Chinese force them to do.
And it just so happens that NK "sudden" hardening of their stance occurs precisely at the same time that China is banging up against the levers of strength that the US possesses and that Trump is apparently making full use of.
Gee, nothing to see there.
I return you now to your regularly scheduled programming of "All Is Lost"....
p.s. Germany bombed Pearl Harbor?
Inga: "Ha. I never believed for a minute Trump would go through with it. Bolton and Pence may have played a part too. Kim will likely win the Nobel"
LOL
And right on cue, as if delivered from Lefty central casting, in pops Inga with the NK State Media position!
Too, too perfect.
MS13, Hamas, Kim Jong Un.
The lefty support Trifecta!
I'd appreciate a link regarding NK's "stockpile" of nuclear weapons.
J. Farmer: "p.s. Germany bombed Pearl Harbor?"
There are some who believe so......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE
Leftwing fascist Hillary supporting corruption supporters cheer.
Kim Jong Un places his citizens in prison if they don't comply. That's the kind of left-wing leadership American leftists dream of.
Re: Chuck:
Well, this is going to put a dent in Trump's Nobel Peace Prize.
We'll have to see how this all plays out. If nothing else, Trump isn't negotiating in the usual US fashion here. The standard approach has consistently failed miserably, so might as well try this, I guess. The risk of an actual nuclear exchange still seems pretty minimal to me at this point. It's going to be humiliating if they come crawling back to the negotiating table immediately, so they're probably going to launch another missile over Japan to show that they can't just be pushed around. After which I guess Trump will mull over whether to smack them around again with even more sanctions, or let them re-open summit discussions. Moon Jae-in is going to be busy sucking up to everyone in the meantime, though.
That said, I was just having coffee today with someone and almost got teary-eyed at the thought of a resolution to the North Korean problem, and perhaps the ability to sponsor food aid and medicine to the North Korean people (and not have it immediately stolen by the government) some time in the near future. Give me back my tears, Trump!
Leftists stand shoulder to shoulder with MS-13, Hamas, and Kim Jong Un.
p.s. Germany bombed Pearl Harbor?
That's a quote form a movie called Animal House.
@Drago:
Further, NK is China's little puppy and does whatever the Chinese force them to do.
That is untrue. And that ignores the ongoing disputes China has with North Korea over issues such as illegal immigration and the North Korean seizure of Chinese fishing boats. Yes, China has tremendous leverage over North Korea, but it is very unlikely to take steps that would result in the regime collapse. And presumably the regime knows this. A collapsed North Korea would not only mean a huge refugee crisis for China, it could very likely result in the South taking control, which would put allied American forces right on China's borders.
And it just so happens that NK "sudden" hardening of their stance occurs precisely at the same time that China is banging up against the levers of strength that the US possesses and that Trump is apparently making full use of.
Sudden? The statements from the North were in reaction to statements by Western leaders. In particular the comment Pence made, "There was some talk about the Libyan model last week, and you know, as the President made clear, this will only end like the Libyan model ended if Kim Jong Un doesn’t make a deal."
I return you now to your regularly scheduled programming of "All Is Lost"....
Where did I say anything to that effect?
Lefties would like to buy Kim Jong Un a coke, and cover it with love....
And something about honeybees and snow white turtle doves..
@Nonapod:
That's a quote form a movie called Animal House.
Right! Pissed at myself for that one.
J Farmer: "That is untrue."
Nope, it's true.
Next.
Re: J. Farmer:
If I am not mistaken the problem was the North's stockpile of nuclear weapons and the missiles with which to deliver them. We are no closer to solving that problem than we were six months ago.
No, we're not. We're in the middle of a kind of dialogue with North Korea, and that could turn out well, or maybe it just falls apart. I don't think there's any way to just closer or further in this kind of situation -- North Korea just tried to demonstrate it was willing to walk away, and Trump just called their bluff. And if it, ah, wasn't a bluff, well, then that's that. But if it was, then after some posturing, I think we'll be "closer" in some sense. Until the next turning point in the dialogue, where we could end up "closer" to a solution, or things could careen off the rails.
Just to clarify, I'm agreeing with J. Farmer that we're no closer to a solution; we're stuck in the middle of an exchange that could go either way.
Balfegor: "North Korea just tried to demonstrate it was willing to walk away, and Trump just called their bluff."
Whoa!
Don't go pouring water on Inga's dream of Kim Jong Un getting a Nobel!
This is what Trump does, what he has learned to do over his entire professional life. Cancelling the meeting is a step in the process, not the end. I suspect this may be embarrassing for Kim, am very interested to see how Trump helps him save face and re-engage.
Nobel Peace prizes are the participation trophy of the era.
-sw
@Fabi:
I'd appreciate a link regarding NK's "stockpile" of nuclear weapons.
"North Korea is estimated to have assembled 10-20 nuclear warheads and to have the fissile material for an estimated 30-60 nuclear weapons, as well as advanced chemical and biological weapons programs. In the past several years Pyongyang has accelerated the pace of ballistic missile testing, and twice in July 2017 tested an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) capable of reaching the U.S. mainland. North Korea withdrew from the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 2003, but its withdrawal is disputed. Beginning in 2006, the UN Security Council has passed several resolutions requiring North Korea to halt its nuclear and missile activities and imposing sanctions on Pyongyang for its refusal to comply."
Arms Control and Proliferation Profile: North Korea
Drago said...
Lefties would like to buy Kim Jong Un a coke, and cover it with love....
And something about honeybees and snow white turtle doves..
Although I am only a moderate, this sounds about right. Fuck those lefties, they're the cause of all the problems in the world.
21 comments so far by Drago. Let’s see if Drago can respond to every single commenter who makes a comment on this thread. I bet he can!
Bolton is there to throw China and Iran off. He’s a useful idiot for Trump.
NSAs are a dime a dozen. Susan Rice was the NSA for a bit and she’s a total fucking moron.
mockturtle noted: “With Asians, it is always about saving face, gaining face, losing face.”
And with KJU, there’s an extra measure of face to save.
@Drago:
Nope, it's true.
Next.
Or you could respond to the paragraph written after the three words you quoted.
This has been a complete farce from beginning to end but, for once, Trump can't take the lion's share of the blame, just a lamb's share.
Balfegor: "Just to clarify, I'm agreeing with J. Farmer that we're no closer to a solution; we're stuck in the middle of an exchange that could go either way."
Unless...unless...this very impasse is a necessary step on the way to establishing a better understanding between the parties and THAT is required to achieve a deal.
In which case taking this step is very much a step closer to a desired solution.
Of course, we will only know in retrospect AND we will not be able to reconstruct the initial conditions to test whether or not OTHER paths would have led to the same desirous or even better outcomes.
In any event, as long as KJU gets at least a "participation trophy", MS13 members are allowed into every town AND Hamas wipes Israel from the map, Inga will be satisfied.
ARM: "This has been a complete farce from beginning to end but,..."
When the US fails to deliver cash by the pallet to murderous regimes, ARM tears up.
Like that Indian guy seeing the trash on the side of the road in the commercial.
Chinese trade negotiations.
“MS13 members are allowed into every town AND Hamas wipes Israel from the map...”
🐿!!
Inga tries to walkback the massive rhetorical support the dems have given MS13 in the last 2 weeks.
And fails....
That might help explain why the polls have shifted.
When a party openly supports terrorists and gang animals, that kind of thing is likely to happen...
@Drago:
Unless...unless...this very impasse is a necessary step on the way to establishing a better understanding between the parties and THAT is required to achieve a deal.
What do you imagine are the broad outlines of a deal between the US and the North?
Hinging hope on an insane master communist/ mass-murderer /mass-torturer /mass starvation/ Potemkin Village con-artist with nukes (where everyone lives in fear and is kept in the dark about how the real world works) is a walk on a tight rope.
That the left collectively cheer when any hope disappears is telling.
J Farmer: "Or you could respond to the paragraph written after the three words you quoted."
I could also go argue with the drunk on the corner.
Ha. I never believed for a minute Trump would go through with it. Bolton and Pence may have played a part too. Kim will likely win the Nobel.
Who sez he’s not going to go thru with the meeting?
It might not be the date you want, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be a meeting.
Geez, Inga, do you not understand how this works?
Kim is being recalcitrant because this is the way he was taught because it worked for his dad and grandpa. Banged on the high chair, got attention. And he also met with Xi recently.
J Farmer: "What do you imagine are the broad outlines of a deal between the US and the North?"
I only care about the final outline of all deals between the US and China that are currently in dispute.
Those outcomes will determine the NK outcome.
Except for that issue of North Korea's stockpile of nuclear weapons and missiles capable of reaching US territory.
You’d better hope Iran didn’t put any in Venezuela.
Do you have a problem with that payout?
If you read the source material you'd find a few material changes were made to the synopsis you posted, J. Farmer.
"The authors cautiously estimate that North Korea may have produced enough fissile material to build between 30 and 60 nuclear weapons, and that it might possibly have assembled 10 to 20."
You're welcome.
Kim: “Trump’s not the boss of me! Nya, nya, nya!”
The current state of the game:
North Korea 20, Iran 0.
I surprised that no one has mentioned that Scott Adams predicted this long ago. Just yesterday he pointed out that the next move in the game had to be cancellation of the meeting.
@Drago:
I could also go argue with the drunk on the corner.
"China is North Korea’s biggest trade partner and arguably has the most leverage on Kim Jong-un’s regime. But while Beijing appears willing to condemn its neighbor’s nuclear developments, analysts say its cautious policies remain focused on stability."
The China–North Korea Relationship
So what did this article get wrong?
"North Korea 20, Iran 0."
Look how quickly ARM latched on to Farmer's bullshit number and ran with it. Unexpectedly.
That letter was to China, not North Korea.
Opposite of no drama Obama.
Trump called China’s bluff.
Achilles: "That letter was to China, not North Korea."
China, the US, what's the difference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxvT8KKdFw
@Fabi:
If you read the source material you'd find a few material changes were made to the synopsis you posted, J. Farmer.
This is true of all nuclear power states. How many nukes does Pakistan have? India? Do you think it is zero? Obviously all totals are based on estimates, since North Korea's program is highly secretive, hence a range is given.
readering: "Opposite of no drama Obama"
Why would there be any drama when obama let the NK do whatever they want?
Next up for readering: why giving Iran everything they wanted when they wanted it in precisely the way they wanted kept them "quiet"....
LOL
The ugly female Joy Behar left - they don't care.
ARM said, '..., as he is trying to compare the DPRK, a nuclear weapon state, to Libya that had simply installed a few items of equipment and fiddled around with them.'
That's not what I remember, or at least it leaves out a good deal of context.
During the first Gulf War, which was the response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, the United States intelligence agencies were astonished to discover that Iraq had a large nuclear weapons development program on which Iraq had spent at least $30 billion and had been going on for many years.
The infrastructure for that project was destroyed during the war, but the Iraqi engineers and scientists who had worked on it remained.
Prior to the Iraq War, one of the main reasons offered for going to war by the Bush administration, was the belief, supported nominally by all western intelligence agencies, that Iraq had returned to developing nuclear weapons. Not that Iraq had nuclear weapons, but that they were pursuing them. The United States also believed that Iraq had renewed it's production of chemical weapons, which had been used extensively in the war between Iraq and Iran from 1980 to 1988.
During the Iraq war no evidence of a renewed nuclear weapons program was found in Iraq and no evidence of renewed chemical weapons production was discovered either. Now some 5000 chemical munitions were found, but they all dated from the first Gulf War.
But in the massive trove of documents that the United States found as a consequence of the amazingly rapid collapse of the Saddam Hussein regime, the United States discovered that Iraq, North Korea, and Libya had a joint nuclear weapons development program, and that the physical location of the program was in Libya, with Iraq and North Korea contributing scientists and engineers.
Then you have no clue if the number is 0 or 5,000, J. Farmer. You used the term "stockpile" without factual support -- just admit it.
@Fabi:
Estimating the size of North Korea’s nuclear arsenal is a high-stakes guessing game. Nuclear specialists look at a range of variables, including the country’s capacity to produce centrifuges needed to enrich uranium, and how much of the end product would likely go into each bomb.
The latest Chinese estimate that North Korea could have 20 warheads today and 40 by 2016, reported exclusively by the Wall Street Journal on Thursday, surpasses that of most U.S. experts.
The current U.S. Congressional estimate is that North Korea has 10-16 nuclear weapons. The Chinese estimate for 2016 falls near the highest end of a range presented in a report published in February by the US-Korea Institute at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
Just How Many Nuclear Weapons Does North Korea Have? A Look at the Numbers
See also this North Korea’s Nuclear Futures: Technology and Strategy
China wants South Korea to clean up the North Korean mess.
There will be another summons to Beijing for fat boy soon.
I'm not sure this situation is much worth reading about. The press is probably privy to so little information about what is going on that their reports are unlikely to be enlightening.
Thank you for continuing to support my position, J. Farmer!
Regardless of your political position, ask yourself this question:
Who would I rather have negotiating with North Korea, Trump, Carter or Obama?
Write whatever you want her, but be honest with yourself. Your life may depend upon it.
@Fabi:
Then you have no clue if the number is 0 or 5,000, J. Farmer. You used the term "stockpile" without factual support -- just admit it.
Wrong. I have a clue that it is much less than 5,000 but more than zero. The very lines you quoted come from the abstract to North Korean nuclear capabilities, 2018. From the body of the article:
Uncertainty about the operational status of North Korea’s nuclear warheads is not a cause for complacency, and North Korea has made considerable progress toward deploying a re-entry vehicle that can deliver an operational nuclear warhead. Achieving that goal – and thus demonstrating the capability to operate a fully functioning nuclear arsenal – is presumably only a matter of time – perhaps a year or two.
@Fabi:
Thank you for continuing to support my position, J. Farmer!
Two simple questions: (1) Do you believe North Korea has nuclear warheads? (2) How many constitute a "stockpile?"
Uncertainty about the operational status of North Korea’s nuclear warheads is not a cause for complacency, and North Korea has made considerable progress toward deploying a re-entry vehicle that can deliver an operational nuclear warhead.
No way!
readering says thats not possible because "No Drama" Gangsta obama had it all under control!
LOL
Fuck those lefties, they're the cause of all the problems in the world.
No, not all. Most, maybe.
Zimbabwe is not a lefty problem and South Africa, which was a lefty issue when the left was demanding the blacks take over, is now just the usual force of history as it slides into chaos and the white farmers leave or be killed.
That is only a partly left problem.
We are still living with the consequences of the French Revolution. Chou en Lai was right. It's too soon to tell how it will end.
J. Farmer said...
“What do you imagine are the broad outlines of a deal between the US and the North?”
NK denuclearizes.
South Korea takes the brunt of costs bringing North Korea to the modern world.
China gets some help from the USA cleaning up the nuclear volcano.
Trump eases up on the trade war that is buckling several large crony Chinese businesses.
Trump doesn’t smash several large Chinese banks that are keeping NK afloat with sanctions.
Of course, I can't really blame obama for just giving in to America's enemies one right after another.
After all, he was extremely busy turning the federal government into an East German paradise of activity.
What are they now saying about Kim on Fox and Friends?
I remember reading about a famous person's divorce when I knew someone close to the person. Press accounts (amicable, calm) in no way reflected reality (bitter, miserable, mental breakdown.) Have never really trusted press reports of anything ever since. If they're not reporting on things for which they are present, they don't know. They're just putting nonsense into print.
China could build a wall. Snark
The South Koreans, giddy at the prospect of peace today (tired of the weapons pointed at them) will soon come to realize that peace will place an extraordinary burden on them, despite promises by the US, Japan, China and others to "help".
But it is the least "worst" option.
After Fat Boy 2 began to waiver (when he grokked that the talks were serious and different from the last twenty years), Trump became not interested. Then, number 2 reminded him of what previous administrations did to those who crossed French politicians.
The issue IS disarmament, completely, and live with the reality of retaliation if FB2 is lying.
As for lobbing one on Oahu, or San Francisco, ONE, the reaction will be unprecedented as all know.
FB2 waivers; Trump is no longer interested. The Big Fish is reeling in the Little Fish. Chinese culture is not ONLY about saving face; it is also about reading the change of time and conditions. Trump is concerned about the deal; but, the conditions of no more nukes is non-negotiable with a sprinkling of Libya for good measure.
And seriously, who gives a shit about the gold medal from the King of Norway and his committee of appeasers. Let FB2 have the Gold; the US has the dynamite; lots of dynamite.
readering: "What are they now saying about Kim on Fox and Friends?"
Wow, you really don't have anything else to offer, do you?
LOL
" Have never really trusted press reports of anything ever since.
Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia Syndrome.
“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”
South Korea takes the brunt of costs bringing North Korea to the modern world.
I read an article after the meeting that the young South Koreans don’t want that because they saw what happened to Germany.
It’s understandable because they don’t have the ties.
J. Farmer -- I am uncertain if they have any operational nuclear warheads. The impetus to quantify "stockpile" is on you.
@Achilles:
NK denuclearizes.
South Korea takes the brunt of costs bringing North Korea to the modern world.
China gets some help from the USA cleaning up the nuclear volcano.
Trump eases up on the trade war that is buckling several large crony Chinese businesses.
Trump doesn’t smash several large Chinese banks that are keeping NK afloat with sanctions.
And what do you think the likelihood of that happening in the next, say, five years is?
Drago, readering think everyone to the right of center must watch Fox.
After all, he/she gets the daily script from MSNBC.
Francisco D said...
“Who would I rather have negotiating with North Korea, Trump, Carter or Obama?”
You forgot Bush Clinton Bush.
I see no real difference in the outcome with any of those people in charge.
Bush II didn’t say a word when Obama/Clinton betrayed Ghadafi. They all made it clear that any tinpot who denuclearized was stupid to trust the US with the globalists in charge.
I read an article after the meeting that the young South Koreans don’t want that because they saw what happened to Germany.
Yes, the SKs have been discouraging refugees for years, even returning a few that sought refuge in their Chinese embassy.
My Chinese medical student pointed out to me that the area where the NK refugees go is the poorest part of China.
And what do you think the likelihood of that happening in the next, say, five years is?
It’s been 70 years Chinas playing for longer, so why is 5 years critical?
"Just to clarify, I'm agreeing with J. Farmer that we're no closer to a solution; we're stuck in the middle of an exchange that could go either way."
What? 70 years of antagonism hasn't been resolved in a few months? Outrageous!
Really much more than 70 years. Given the Korean War, it is often forgotten that when a Chinese mandarin thinks about U.S. policy in regards to Korea, he's actually thinking about Japan.
@Fabi:
J. Farmer -- I am uncertain if they have any operational nuclear warheads. The impetus to quantify "stockpile" is on you.
Now we are introducing the qualifier "operational" into the equation. The question was about the number of warheads, which is a separate question from North Korea's ability to deliver them. And as for the amount of warheads North Korea possesses, choose your source. Whether it's the Arms Control Association, Federation of American Scientists, the Stockholm Peace Research Institute, etc. The lowest number given by all sources on the subject is 10. Not zero. I think that qualifies as stockpiling nuclear weapons.
Achilles: "I see no real difference in the outcome with any of those people in charge"
Agreed.
But that's because each of those Presidents completely and utterly deferred to what is essentially the same glaciated thinking that has ossified over the decades over at Foggy Bottom by all the "swells" that walk those corridors.
Those idiots, in addition to our CIA analyst incompetents (who are culled from the same locations/viewpoints as State Dept types), have missed every single major geo-political change over the last 50 years.
But only every single one.
@Seeing Red:
It’s been 70 years Chinas playing for longer, so why is 5 years critical?
Because we could potentially have a new head of state with a completely different foreign policy by then. It's hard to play that kind of long game when you churn leadership so frequently. It's also partly why we have a deep state.
Michael K: "My Chinese medical student pointed out to me that the area where the NK refugees go is the poorest part of China."
Or, as the NK refugees call that part of China, "paradise"....
It's all relative.
> We are still living with the consequences of the French Revolution. Chou en Lai was right.
My understanding was the the reference was to the 1968 revolution. Doesn't sound nearly as sexy, but makes more sense.
“And what do you think the likelihood of that happening in the next, say, five years is?“
50/50.
Trump can just threaten to stick China with cleaning up NK. China can take the above deal or deal with the humanitarian crisis when the norks fall.
The US economy is doing exactly what it always does when you start pulling DC ticks out. Wages are exploding. Real wages for the little people. Economic optimism is the highest in decades.
Trump has room to put the screws to China. You can’t lose a trade war with a country you have a 500 billion dollar trade deficit with.
This farce illustrates perfectly why Trump is unsuited to be president. He has no respect for the office of the presidency. He was perfectly happy to throw away the prestige of the office for some positive publicity, when a retarded squirrel could have told you that it would end badly. This is how he has lived his life. He has no respect for anything other than publicity and ratings and he is not going to change at 70.
Operational is not a qualifier, J. Farmer -- it's sine qua non. If they're not operational then they're not nuclear warheads.
If you had written "estimated stockpile" we wouldn't have had this discussion. Fair enough?
ARM: "This farce illustrates perfectly why Trump is unsuited to be president."
LOL
Too funny.
We are almost back to the Trump gets 2 scoops of ice cream phase of the lefty complaints!
Speaking of surprises, unknown Republican Gov. candidate Cox in California polls well ahead of popular well known Hispanic contender.
Still behing golden boy shoo-in Gavin Newsome. Pretty interesting in that Cox is totally opposite Villagarosa and Newsome, who run pro Gay, Pro illegal immigrant, free lunch type campaigns. Every Dem ad in Ca promises to protect us from Trump. Dem ads running all night long. Have only seen one Cox ad this week.
25%, 19%, 10%
Re: J. Farmer:
What do you imagine are the broad outlines of a deal between the US and the North?
North Korea turns over nuclear weapons for destruction and destroys or converts its missile fuel factories over to peaceful applications; United States withdraws troops from South Korea, promises to stop flying bombers right along the border to freak them out, and significantly reduces current sanctions. The rest is details (and there would have to be a lot of details to coordinate drawdown on both sides, arrange for verification, etc.). Also, North Korea promises to stop kidnapping people, and various countries pour in a bunch of reconstruction, development, food, and medical aid.
That still leaves North Korea in a more precarious position than us -- we can always just send bombers from Japan, after all. But there's nothing more we can offer, realistically. If that's not in the zone of agreement, then there's nothing. We continue starving them out, and they continuing missile launches, nuclear tests, and the occasional military assault on South Korean forces, threatening to turn Seoul into a sea of flame and all that, but shying away from doing anything they think would actually risk a counterstrike.
@Fabi:
Operational is not a qualifier, J. Farmer -- it's sine qua non. If they're not operational then they're not nuclear warheads.
If you had written "estimated stockpile" we wouldn't have had this discussion. Fair enough?
I did not stay warheads. I said nuclear weapons. A North Korean nuclear bomb could be detonated in the certain of Seoul. That is not the same thing as a nuclear bomb being delivered via a missile. Read Status of World Nuclear Forces by the Federation of American Scientists, which is the same source for the words you quoted originally. The first table has a column for "Military Stockpile." North Korea is listed as "10-20." So I think if "stockpile" is okay for the very source you quoted, then it is okay for me.
What's next per Art of the Deal?
Re: Cracker Emcee:
What? 70 years of antagonism hasn't been resolved in a few months? Outrageous!
Really much more than 70 years. Given the Korean War, it is often forgotten that when a Chinese mandarin thinks about U.S. policy in regards to Korea, he's actually thinking about Japan.
I think the Chinese view the Korean peninsula as entirely within their proper sphere of influence. I don't think Korean independence has sat well with them in the past, and I don't think it sits well with them today. Japan won Korea away from Chinese domination in 1895, ergo Korean independence is automatically illegitimate. I mean, there's people in China who think Okinawa should be part of Greater China. Their claim to Korea is a lot easier to substantiate than their claim to Okinawa.
Real world experience vs establishment "analysts"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM
@Balfegor:
I think that is a sensible outline for a deal. I think there are a few other looming issues, such as the US-ROK mutual defense treaty. Would ending that treaty be on the table? And do you think a withdraw of US forces from the peninsula is on the table? Also, timing seems very important to me. From a North Korean perspective, and given recent history, isn't unilaterally disarming before accruing any benefit a very reckless course to pursue?
Trump the master deal maker, lol.
readering: "What's next per Art of the Deal?"
LOL
You are living it, witnessing it in real time, yet still have to ask the question.
Funny.
readering attempting to figure out whats going on...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UpFqL8hkwE
And the Chicoms were disinvited to manoevers because of the Spratley Islands.
Inga: "Trump the master deal maker, lol"
"Optimism About Availability of Good Jobs Hits New Heights"
"67% say now is a good time to find a quality job
Optimism has been climbing throughout Trump presidency
Republicans driving drastic turnaround in outlook"
http://news.gallup.com/poll/234587/optimism-availability-good-jobs-hits-new-heights.aspx
LOL
@Baelfegor:
I think the Chinese view the Korean peninsula as entirely within their proper sphere of influence.
I agree. But shouldn't they? I mean, we consider the entire Latin American continent our sphere of influence and would (rightly) consider the building of Chinese or Russian military bases in the region a highly provocative act.
J. Farmer -- 10-20 sounds like an "estimated stockpile" since it's not an absolute value. One more thing -- you were the one who originally mentioned missiles, hence my use of warheads.
"If I am not mistaken the problem was the North's stockpile of nuclear weapons and the missiles with which to deliver them."
isn't unilaterally disarming before accruing any benefit a very reckless course to pursue?
A. He gets to live unlike his brother
B. He has China.
Many have tried, all have failed, but the diplomatic dance has just begun.
the dictator of Libya, after abandoning his nuclear program, was gutted from the asshole forward
Not even a trial by his peers. That's a problem for all future diplomatic efforts. America is a known Pro-Choice state. We electively abort nearly one million of our own Posterity... fetuses ("offspring") in Planned Parenthood et al.
Then there's our ambassador, who was sodomized and aborted when Obama deferred to terrorists.
He has no respect for anything other than publicity and ratings and he is not going to change at 70.
ARM, how did you earn your billion ?
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