Gizmodo reports:
Back in 2010, archaeologists uncovered a strange Middle Age burial in Imola, Italy, dated to the 7th or 8th century AD. The stone-lined grave contained an adult female skeleton that was lying on its back, indicating a proper, intentional burial. But the archaeologists also discovered a pile of small bones below the pelvis.... Based on the evidence, the researchers say the scene is an example of a “coffin birth,” or “post-mortem fetal extrusion.” This is a known, but rare, phenomenon that occurs during the decomposition phase. Around two to five days after the death of a pregnant individual, gas builds up inside the body, eventually forcing the fetus to be ejected from the vaginal canal, resulting in a post-mortem birth. Researchers say the fetus had already died when the mother was buried.
There was also a hole in the woman's skull, indicating "trepanation," a medical intervention of the time.
The woman lived for about a week after the trepanation, as her skull exhibited the first signs of bone healing. The suggestion that Medieval doctors performed a primitive form of brain surgery on a woman who was 38 weeks pregnant may seem wholly bizarre, if not completely inappropriate, but the researchers have a very plausible explanation: The trepanation was done to treat the woman’s eclampsia—a hypertensive pregnancy disorder....
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104 comments:
"More than 140 children were ritually killed in a single event in Peru [where they also practiced trepanning] more than 500 years ago. What could possibly have been the reason?"
Gee, I guess we'll never know why some people killed other people in rituals.
Three Loud Cheers for modern medical advancements.
Unlike Bob Dylan, she would have preferred not to have been in a wood structure.
The Historical Horror of Childbirth
Childbirth doesn't have to be great, just good enough to preserve the species.
Making it better has some other cost that's evolutionarily disadvantageous.
It ended up being perfectly safe but improbable by choice. Too much science.
There are quite a few completely healed trepanned skulls, many from south America.
Now in the US 18 women die per 100,000 live births.
There is an excellent scene in the HBO series "Rome" in which one of the two main characters, Titus Pullo, is given brain surgery.
"It ended up being perfectly safe"
Antibiotics and blood pressure medicine could have saved two people from the eclampsia. With antibiotics, a cesarean section becomes much safer.
Birth is not perfectly safe. There is a heightened risk of death. Medical intervention for eclampsia, blood pressure, and clots can save a lotta people. Serena Williams saved herself from a blood clot after her birth. She insisted on treatment with heparin and an MRI in the hospital.
US maternal deaths have risen since the 90s, despite all of the medical advances.
Oh, Rob... you've set the standard for best edgy comment of the day... or maybe all-time.
wwww,
Do you mean death rates? Are you controlling for all the variables? Which variables do you believe are important?
Does importing 30-40 million third world people have anything to do with increasing rates? Wow everybody with your insight.
You've been nearly reasonable these last few days.
Birkel,
Are you an American pregnant woman with blood pressure risk? If not, I have no moral duty to convince you to monitor your blood pressure before and after birth.
Look at Phil's comment at 9:11 AM.
I am stating a fact not an opinion. Google it if you're interested.
That’s what this thread was lacking- a “Dick Van Dyke Show” allusion.
wwww,
Then I am duty-bound to say yes, I am a pregnant woman with blood pressure risk.
Have you controlled for factors that would contribute to increasing rates?
wwww,
Odd that you would use the word fact when I'm trying to understand whether your fact is important or not. There are many things that are true that distort an understanding:
1) Lies;
2) Damned lies; and
3) Statistics.
This seems strangely relevant to the Alfie Evans matter. That ancient family must have agonized over the looming threat to the lives of the woman and the unborn baby, and they must have known that the brain surgery of the time was almost certainly a vain hope, yet they opted to proceed, desperate to do something, no matter how unlikely. Even after all this time, how terribly sad.
"Odd that you would use the word fact when I'm trying to understand whether your fact is important or not. There are many things that are true that distort an understanding"
Sure, believe what you want. I can't force you to monitor your blood pressure.
"Better late than never." - Pollyanna after learning about coffin birth.
@Lucien
LOL.
And thanks for noticing (noticing my near-total randomness).
wwww,
Fantastic job typing things that anybody with a working understanding of medicine, biology, anatomy and etc already knows.
Now would you like to type something about the "why" the rate of birth-related deaths has increased? Your resistance to answering is noted.
I will note my own best guess to explain the increase in the rate of death related to childbirth: obesity. The increase in the rate of obesity leads to diabetes and that disease causes greater complications for both the mother and the baby.
There are other factors but wwww won't abide.
I bet the doctor had an M.D. from the AMA. Those people are fucking murderers.
I only go to D.O. doctors. Osteopathic means don't drill into the fucking head with woodcraft tools.
“Your resistance to answering is noted.”
Birkel, what the hell is wrong with you? Maybe she doesn’t want to deal with someone who comes across as odd and obsessive as you do.
Royal ass Inga,
Your interjection is noted.
“They died from cardiomyopathy and other heart problems, massive hemorrhage, blood clots, infections and pregnancy-induced hypertension (preeclampsia) as well as rarer causes. Many died days or weeks after leaving the hospital. Maternal mortality is commonplace enough that three new mothers who died, including Lauren, were cared for by the same ob/gyn.
The reasons for higher maternal mortality in the U.S. are manifold. New mothers are older than they used to be, with more complex medical histories. Half of pregnancies in the U.S. are unplanned, so many women don't address chronic health issues beforehand. Greater prevalence of C-sections leads to more life-threatening complications. The fragmented health system makes it harder for new mothers, especially those without good insurance, to get the care they need. Confusion about how to recognize worrisome symptoms and treat obstetric emergencies makes caregivers more prone to error.”
https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/527806002/focus-on-infants-during-childbirth-leaves-u-s-moms-in-danger
“Your interjection is noted.”
Oooooo should I be worried? Stop being such a damn weirdo.
The U.S. has the worst rate of maternal deaths in the developed world, and 60 percent are preventable. The death of Lauren Bloomstein, a neonatal nurse, in the hospital where she worked illustrates a profound disparity: The health care system focuses on babies but often ignores their mothers.
Your cuts and your pastes are noted.
Try reading them and learn something Birkel. It won’t hurt.
Royal ass Inga, if you think you're going to educate me on much of anything you'll spend a long time waiting for a train won't come. I mock you because that's what you're worth. You're the sort of person for whom I wouldn't pull a hair.
I rarely side with Inga, but Birkel is off the rails today.
Go ahead and explain exactly what I typed above that was off the rails.
wwww,
I asked you very specific questions which you avoided.
Do you mean death rates? Are you controlling for all the variables? Which variables do you believe are important? Does importing 30-40 million third world people have anything to do with increasing rates?
Those are fair questions. And now you pretend that somehow my initial questions were unfair? What purpose does that serve?
Birkel, your OCD is acting up again today, eh?
Royal ass Inga is the sort of doctor who can make medical diagnoses online.
I diagnosed you as terminally stupid.
Who suffers the greater risk from child birth- women having their first child in their 30s and 40s, or women in their late teens and 20s?
As I often asked in such statistical debates- when comparing countries, are you comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges? The reason this is important to know is this- the US is a significantly more demographically heterogeneous than every other country in the developed world.
To illustrate my point- a few years ago at Marginal Revolution, there was a commenter who used the results of a national educational assessment test to claim that Texas under-performed Wisconsin when it came to educating the students. However, when I looked into the actual breakdown of the results, something popped out- Texas outperformed Wisconsin in every single one of the major categories of ethnicity- White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic, but Wisconsin had a higher average score simply because the state was significantly more homogenous and white than Texas is.
If you want to convince me (and Birkel) that the US truly suffers in comparison to other developed countries, you need to describe the apples to apples and oranges to oranges rather than use country level averages. Demographics must be controlled for.
Yancey Ward,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for clarity. But note that my questions were meant to help define the issues that the other side thinks are important for decision making. One can have an argument about the assumptions implicit in an argument ONLY AFTER one establishes the definitions of important terms that define the issue.
My attempts to elicit mere definitions were rebuffed.
I have yet to disagree on substance in this thread with anybody because any attempt to disagree without first setting the definitions is wasted effort. One can tell if the other side of a potential argument is honest (or not) if they won't even agree to set the definitions of the debate.
Women are twice as likely to die from causes related to pregnancy or childbirth in the United States than in Canada, a new global survey of maternal mortality published by the United Nations and the World Bank showed on Thursday.
Further, it is a useful rhetorical tool to ask the other side to define, precisely, what they mean before engaging in any serious way. It saves a lot of wasted effort talking past the other party.
In real life, it keeps one from disturbing an otherwise satisfactory relationship. It becomes obvious that engaging is wasted effort.
Online, it reveals who is worthy to engage and who has earned mockery.
“One can tell if the other side of a potential argument is honest (or not) if they won't even agree to set the definitions of the debate.”
Not everything is a debate Birkel. Some things are discussions in which no one demands anything from the other. You immediately came across as agressive and arrogant when addressing wwww. Very off putting, most normal people understand this.
Royal ass Inga wants assertions by her fellow travelers accepted uncritically.
No, thank you.
“Royal ass Inga wants assertions by her fellow travelers accepted uncritically.”
Birkel, most normal people know how to disagree without immediately becoming agressive. You were free to link to publications that backed up your assertions, without demanding that wwww proved her point immediately. She says she has a baby and is busy, plus she seems to be a tender very decent sort of person who probably is repulsed and repelled by your aggression and odd insistence. I’d call your problem obsessive and agressive. I notice you target those you think you can bully and it’s only a matter of time that other commenters, even those that agree with you politically, will notice.
And, Inga, what is the maternal mortality of women in the US with similar demography and ethnicity compare to those in Canada, or Iceland/Finland/Sweden? In other words, is the US rate only higher because it has 5 times as high a percentage of blacks, for example?
To make it clear- what is the mortality of ethnic white mothers in US and in Canada? What is is the mortality of whites, ethnic Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Mexican in the two countries. How does mortality in the two countries compared across income levels?
Royal ass Inga,
Without mentioning that wwww was indeed, as I helpfully offered, talking about rates when she typed "maternal deaths" wwww did change to talking about rates.
Did you notice her concession?
I'd wager you didn't.
Good questions and good points Yancy. I’d be willing to read the info you find regarding the statistics you refer to. As for me, I too don’t have time today. I’m off to a function and to run some errands. Have a nice day, I’ll check back later to see what you’ve come up with.
Inga, you are the one posting the data- the onus is really on you to find the demographic breakdowns.
As noted, those who will not even make an effort to set the terms of the debate by agreeing to definitions of the terms to be discussed are NEVER arguing in good faith.
Ah.Yancy, lol. I see, you want to create correlations without doing the footwork to prove what you’ve asserted might be a correlation. I’m not saying that your questions aren’t worth discussing and don’t have merit, but really the onus is on you to prove what YOU have brought into the discussion. Now I really do have to run. I’ll come back later to see what you’ve come up with. I’m sure it will be interesting.
However, start here:
"Total maternal mortality rates ranged from 1.9 deaths per 100,000 in New Hampshire to 22.8 in the District of Columbia. When data from 1979 to 1992 were analyzed, the overall pregnancy-related mortality ratio was 25.1 deaths per 100,000 for black women, 10.3 for Hispanic women, and 6.0 for non-Hispanic white women (emphasis added by Y.W.) (Hopkins et al., 1999)."
Good work Yancy! See you later.
.
Inga, again- you were the one trying to use a broad average, not me- I was the one asking you to post the relevant breakdown from your link. Again, the onus is on you to support your assertion- I was only asking you to support that assertion. It would never occur to me to ask someone to support my own argument with data- I would expect to have flesh out my assertion myself if asked to do so.
Never accept homework from a dishonest critic.
From the link I provided, it does appear very likely that Canada only has a lower rate because it is far more white than is the US. So, good-bye, Inga.
Inga really is like the student who, when asked to show their work to arrive at an answer, replies that it is the teacher's responsibility.
That is how you get a fart to vanish in the wind.
HAHAHA!!
The wind won.
Birkel is not a pregnant woman, is she? He told that to me to get me to engage. He knew I would not engage otherwise, with him.
He's probably not a woman.
"What is it with people’s behavior online? Why the readiness to attack, the snarky tone, the lack of courtesy inherent to so many comments? The internet can bring out the worst in people, which when taken to extremes turns into trolling—that bizarre impulsive habit of hurting others online, without consequence."
“Results indicate that when high on trait psychopathy, trolls employ an empathic strategy of predicting and recognising the emotional suffering of their victims, while abstaining from the experience of these negative emotions,” the researchers wrote. They added that because psychopathy is associated with thrill-seeking and impulsivity, it’s possible that “creating mayhem online is a central motivator to troll.” They also found that trolls were likely to be high in sadism—the will to hurt others—and were more likely to be male."
https://qz.com/1021205/psychologists-identified-the-kind-of-emotional-intelligence-that-makes-internet-trolls-so-mean/
They need to improve data collection techniques for things such as maternal death rates.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/04/11/texas-maternal-mortality-rate-was-unbelievably-high-now-we-know-why/?utm_term=.280a908abee9
https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/17/health/maternal-mortality-texas-update/index.html
wwww,
How dare you deny me my right to identify as whichever sex I might prefer at a given moment. Your cis-normative denial of my identity is an unfortunate byproduct of the matriarchal society from which you have arisen. Shame on you.
And how dare I demand that you defend your bull shit statement of "fact" that is true and unimportant. Right?
And now you have to call names? And you have to call names indirectly? I'm sure that makes me the bad gal.
Lindsey,
That is welcome news.
Birkel,
Pretty sure you're a 70 year old man.
wwww,
And I am pretty sure you were correct in your initial position. And I was correct to call into question the importance of your initial position.
People like Lindsey and Yancey Ward provided the answers about why I was correct. I'm not in the habit of spreading pearls before Leftists; it's wasted effort.
I identify as a 17 year old pregnant trans-man. How dare you question that. Harumph!
None of that is true. It is plain that I denied the value of the position you initially took.
I knew that the statistic you offered had little meaning because other factors were driving the differences you mentioned. I asked you pertinent questions that you didn't want to consider.
Now, faced with links from others you lash out at me. And why in the world would you not simply admit that what I wanted was you to be better informed after a bit of introspection and analysis?
Answer: You would prefer your 4:22PM be the truth because that answer does not cause you any introspection and analysis. My asking you to think deeply has caused you psychological pain? Perhaps you should wonder why cognitive dissonance (which is internal) feels like an insult (which would be external).
“Now, faced with links from others you lash out at me. And why in the world would you not simply admit that what I wanted was you to be better informed after a bit of introspection and analysis?”
Oh please. LOL. What you wanted was to score a point. You wanted to bully someone, because you are a sadistic asshole. You did so because you are compelled to do so. You obsess over certain commenters and consistently focus on them. Now you want to appear as a normal, caring commenter, you don’t fool anyone. What you are is very obvious.
Royal ass Inga now wants to get involved. Great!
My initial query was to ask "Are you controlling for all the variables? Which variables do you believe are important?"
And that it was the answers to those questions that wwww could not admit? I asked questions to which I knew the answers. Shame on me for knowing things.
And good on you for knowing so little.
Cognitive dissonance is difficult to overcome. Why even bother, eh?
“How common is it for a woman to die in pregnancy in the U.S., and how does that compare to other developed countries?
It’s still rare for a woman to die in pregnancy, but it is much higher in the U.S. than it is in other developed countries. And the rate—which we call the maternal mortality ratio, or MMR—is increasing in the U.S., whereas it’s declining in most other countries. It’s currently between 17 and 28 per 100,000 live births (depending on source and calculation used), which is more than double the rate 30 years ago. The MMR includes death of a woman related to or aggravated by pregnancy while pregnant or within 42 days of the pregnancy ending, whether it’s an abortion, miscarriage, or a delivery. Some data also includes late maternal deaths, within one year of delivery if the cause was pregnancy-related. Our rates in the U.S. are still much lower than in many resource-limited settings—for example, in Uganda, where I’ve worked, the ratio is 343 per 100,000. But the U.S. rate is about triple the rate in the U.K. and Canada, and six times higher than the rate in Scandinavian countries. And it results in about 700 to 900 women dying every year in the U.S. from pregnancy-related causes, as well as about 60,000 to 65,000 of what we call “near misses,” which means women almost dying.“
Why is the maternal mortality rate so high in the US?
“Another factor is that we don’t have great database and review systems for looking at statistics and also drilling down on individual cases, referred to as morbidity and mortality reviews (M & M’s). Some hospitals and clinics have them, but many don’t. The reporting and tracking systems we have are not very well supported and are not universally implemented, though there are national efforts to work on this—to make sure there are accurate statistics and that there are always M & M’s, so we are constantly learning and improving from past near-misses or deaths.
Socioeconomic and racial factors also play a role. National statistics show that there are huge differences in the MMR by socioeconomic status and location. Poor women and rural women are more likely to die in pregnancy, for example. But there are also racial differences. Black women are far more likely to die in pregnancy than white women, regardless of socioeconomic status. Looking at and understanding this is really important as well.”
“We also need to recognize that the disparities in maternal mortality—with black women, regardless of socioeconomic status, dying in much higher rates than white women—means that our health care system is not meeting the needs of all pregnant women equally, which represents systemic racism.”
“Is maternal mortality particularly high in certain states?
There is broad variation of maternal mortality by state, from a low of about six per 100,000 (California, Massachusetts) to a high of almost 41 per 100,000 (District of Columbia). This is probably due to a combination of things. The quality of care varies so greatly from site to site and I think partly that lower quality of care can be due to lack of protocols and standardized care”
Oooh! Inga has joined me.
Thanks for giving me what I already knew. And Yancey Ward knew. And Lindsey knew.
“Can you talk more about the racial difference in maternal mortality in the U.S.? Why are black women dying at such a high rate during pregnancy and childbirth compared to their white peers?
The CDC reports the maternal mortality ratio in the U.S. for white women as 12.7 per 100,000; for black women, it’s 43.5 per 100,000. Can you believe that disparity? It’s unconscionable. And it’s not just about socioeconomic status or educational status or rural/urban dwelling status. It’s something else. Highly educated African American women of high socioeconomic status are still more likely to die in childbirth than a white woman, even one of a lower socioeconomic status. We need to think about our society in general and determine why this might be. And some people are starting to study this more, which is wonderful. We think that at least part of it is due to systemic racism in the medical system.
Inga,
This is SUCH a strange interaction. Why is this guy acting like this? What does he get out of it? I don't get it, but I don't get the psychology of trolls.
I responded to a commenter who thought pregnancy was perfectly safe.
I don't agree. I know two women who were dangerously sick after birth from eclampsia. I know someone who had a stillbirth at 42 weeks because they were not sufficiently monitored.
I believe pregnant women need to watch their health -- in particular they need to beware of eclampsia and hemorrhage. I noted that studies had shown the death rate had risen since the 90s. Women need to monitor their blood pressure before and after birth.
All hospitals are not created equal and eclampsia can be missed. I asked my hospital how fast they could perform a crash C-section when pregnant. It's good to know these things.
What's this guy's deal? Even if death rates stayed the same since the 90s, it's only prudent for pregnant women to monitor blood pressure before and after birth. Does he think women should give birth in the back yard under a tree? Is he one of those home unassisted anti-vax people?
Why does he care that I think birth needs to be medically monitored and involves heightened risk? He's acting like that threatens him...but WHY? This is strange.
ok, going back outside in the sun again.
“Thanks for giving me what I already knew. And Yancey Ward knew. And Lindsey knew.”
Nice try Birkel. No, you did not know this any more than anyone posting here. Now you’re trying to make people here think that’s what you were doing. No, what you were doing was browbeating and bullying because your a sadist. You’re an obsessive compulsive asshole and if someone you thought was a liberal said the sky was blue, you’d argue it was green.
That’s what you were doing and we knew it.
"Are you controlling for all the variables? Which variables do you believe are important?"
And then you give me people talking about controlling the variables and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about?
Royal ass Inga is impenetrable.
wwww,
The mortality rate has been going up since the 1990s because of the disparities so many have helpfully provided. The anodyne things you otherwise posted are fine things. True and relatively meaningless.
Check your cognitive dissonance privilege.
“This is SUCH a strange interaction. Why is this guy acting like this? What does he get out of it? I don't get it, but I don't get the psychology of trolls.”
Interacting with Birkel is always strange and disturbing if one is a liberal, or he thinks you are. He hates them. He’s tried to tell folks here that I don’t have the 4 children and 5 grandchildren I occasionally speak of here. He tells people here I’ve created them in my imagination. He’s a sociopath for sure, maybe even a psychopath. I was psych nurse and believe me I’ve seen this behavior before.
Wwww, I was out earlier and it’s a glorious day here in Wisconsin. Going out again in a bit to have dinner with my daughter and family. Enjoy your little ones.
I think all of us, men and women, black and white can be grateful that the vicissitudes of fate did not makes us coffin babies. Being stillborn is tough enough, but that's an added indignity.. Can you imagine what a hard time they'll have on Resurrection Day?
No, Royal ass Inga, I've repeatedly remarked on the innumerable children you claimed who are not real. You were claiming a child for every occasion and it was bull shit. You wanted the 'Absolute Moral Authority' that comes with having a relative with whatever characteristic you thought would help you win an argument.
You lied incessantly. And I'm quite sure I'll never let you forget all your lies.
If you have four, good for you. It was numbers 5 through infinity that were lies.
As for hatred, you give yourself too much credit.
Pituitary apoplexy - I'd like to see the description of the skull, especially the sella turcica.
“You lied incessantly. And I'm quite sure I'll never let you forget all your lies.”
A lie.
“If you have four, good for you. It was numbers 5 through infinity that were lies.”
Another lie. I’ve never claimed to have more than 4 children. As I said you are not normal.
Granted, you never said "I have an infinite number of children."
You did claim a child for every occasion. And to have a child for every occasion demands more than four children.
You lied, incessantly.
What really chaps your ass Birkel is that I’d do have children. I talk about my kids when it’s apropos to the subject being discussed. Your claiming I “lie incessantly” seems to be projection and just another symptom of your psychopathy. You don’t know me personally, how could you possibly rationally “know” I was lying. You only assume I lied because you didn’t like what I was saying and the point I was making. You’re a sick puppy and you displayed it nicely for everyone here today.
Thanks for proving what I’ve been saying about you for quite sometime now.
I'll take Beyond Macabre for a thousand, Alex.
And the answer is, The reason necrophiliacs wear condoms. Dave?
What is coffin birth?
No.
Sheryl?
What is DNA evidence?
Correct!
Dave! Coffin birth? What in the fuck?
Don't you read Althouse Alex?
I...uh...
Well you should.
I called you on your tendency to claim a child for every occasion back when you were doing it. You lied then and you're still lying now.
It's funny because it's true.
“I called you on your tendency to claim a child for every occasion back when you were doing it. You lied then and you're still lying now.”
Sad. But not sad enough for me to let you get away with your abnormal behavior. Even mentally ill people don’t have to be assholes.
I recognize that you will never admit your lies.
I can't understand the arguing about numbers of children or birth being risky or not.
"I was out earlier and it’s a glorious day here in Wisconsin. Going out again in a bit to have dinner with my daughter and family. Enjoy your little ones."
Thank you! Was a lovely day. We saw birds, bunnies and some dogs, which were a huge hit. Mild chaos and applesauce on top of head is now very funny, but that's par for the course. Enjoy your grandchildren tonight.
wwww,
You did not make the point that having babies is risky. Nobody would have objected. I objected to your assertion that it has gotten more dangerous.
And I have not argued that Inga does or does not have a certain number of real-life children. I have objected to her past assertions of having a kid to fit every situation because of the, you know, impossibility of that being true. She lied to try to win stupid online arguments which is lame.
But do tell yourself whatever story you prefer. It is entertaining.
“And I have not argued that Inga does or does not have a certain number of real-life children.”
Lie.
“I have objected to her past assertions of having a kid to fit every situation because of the, you know, impossibility of that being true.”
I discuss my children and what they do for a living if it’s apropos to the discussion. Others here do the same, yet you never attack them or claim they have fake children. That is a huge tell as to what your motive is.
“She lied to try to win stupid online arguments which is lame.”
Lie.
I have children with varied professions, if the discussion warrants it, I bring it up, as do others. You don’t like the fact that my oldest daughter is in the military and is also a liberal Democrat as I’ve stated numerous times here. You don’t like that I have another daughter who is an attorney. You don’t like it that I have another daughter that is a conservative, stay at home mom, you don’t like it that I have a son in the trades who is a Democrat, union member. I can’t help what you don’t like, but I won’t allow you to continue lying about my motives for bringing it up my children and I won’t allow you to continue lying to people here saying I “invented” my children.
I think your behavior these past several years has shown that you have a major problem with obsessive, agressive, sociopathic pathology.
It is ok, Royal ass Inga. You lied before about having a child for every occasion. The four you have are, I am sure, wonderful. It's the dozens you invented to win arguments online that you should regret.
It is an odd thing, to make up children and lie about it later. Nobody else has done such a thing. You keep on the lookout for others doing so and I will call them liars too. Fair?
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