This seems like a not-great poll for Democrats, who had a larger edge on the shutdown-blame question last week.
— Nate Silver (@NateSilver538) January 22, 2018
They may have started out with the more sympathetic position, but I'm not sure they've had the stronger messaging. Could use more polls, though. https://t.co/7zE4XBX12O
AND: "Senate Votes Overwhelmingly to End Government Shutdown" (NYT).
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218 comments:
1 – 200 of 218 Newer› Newest»Nate would like to see more polls? Nate, give it up. It’s Schumer’s Shutdown.
Not sure why Dems made fight on cloture when Republicans seemed to lack votes on CR itself.
Polls are all about fine tuning the messaging. I have always been saying that, but a WaPo reporter recently got caught explaining that very fact to a liberal conference in her “talk.”
The American people don’t agree with Silver on “sympathetic messaging,” so I guess Silver has gone full pundit, you know, Krugman used to be an economist too.
Not sure why Dems shut down the government because they want to reward a host of law breakers and bring in their entire villages, readering.
It lloks like they’re passing a bill to reopen govt now. Reports are they have the votes to pass..
Of course the CNBC ‘breaking news’ caption is ‘DACA issues threation shutdown on three weeks’
Not sure they've had the stronger messaging, eh, Nate?
It's a hell of a thing to have the press heart and soul on your side, and still have the weaker messaging.
This is a perfect example of how media coverage works in this country. When the government shut down during the Obama years, the story was "Republicans To Blame for Shutdown." With the current shutdown the story becomes: "People May Blame Democrats for Shutdown."
I didn't even know the shutdown happened until I saw everyone spinning the blame. I really find it impossible to care. If it came to light that the Republicans -- or Democrats -- had tied the government to the railroad tracks while sporting an all-black worsted suit and a waxed mustache, I still wouldn't care.
It shows the power of pussy hats.
PPP is a Dem outfit, so subtract 10 from the "blame Trump" and put it in the other column.
Schumer Shutdown. Democrat Denial. Anti-nativist Angst. Progressive Corruption.
It's all about priorities, not how sympathetic you feel for the Dreamers. That the Dem and media elites don't know this shows how out of touch they are with middle America.
It lloks like they’re passing a bill to reopen govt now. Reports are they have the votes to pass..
This is a good case for readering to test the credibility of her sources, isn’t it?
Give the kids citizenship, the parents green cards, and severely limit chain migration. That’s a deal the Democrats can have at any time. They don’t want it. They need a proletariat for their revolution and the US one ain’t goin’ along!
Schumer threatening right now is hilarious...Doesn't he know the golden words...."Elections have consequences" "I won".....HE is an ass....I hope they are laughing at him because I am.
”They may have started out with the more sympathetic position, but I'm not sure they've had the stronger messaging.”
How can you “message” that you are putting illegals over citizens?
Democrats are letting the Republican House temp funding bill be voted on, in exchange for a promise to debate immigration in Feb.
This should tell you all you need to know about how the shutdown is polling internally for Dems.
The Dems only problem is their Messaging was 100% understood, loud and clear. But since last year the people who discovered that Trump is on their side will no longer fall for simple minded World Socialism like crooked Bernie Sanders hawks.
You have to be quite a dullard not to grasp that the Democrats obviously care more for illegals than they do for the troops. It’s hard to give that a positive spin, even with the media covering for you. I’m delighted to see this one is going to bite the donks in the ass.
I won't get too angry at Schumer. He is by far the best leader that the Dem Party has available to lead them. Or they could send for Ophrah, Ophrah, Ophrah to take charge.
Schumer scampers, tail between his legs, from the political battlefield where he has lost. Schumer only pauses just long enough to look back over his shoulder as he runs away to yell 'the republicans are extremists and the people are with us'.......while he continues to run....
Let's call it a draw.....
LOL
robother: "This should tell you all you need to know about how the shutdown is polling internally for Dems."
That has been noted by lefty media as well. In fact, the mere fact some lefty media organs even mentioned it indicates the polling and visuals were far far worse than even we know.
It helps to have a republican President holding fast to his common sense position and launching full-throated double-barreled no-holds-barred attack ads on the dems like the dems have done against republicans for decades.
We warned the dems/lefties that they would not like the new rules (which is us using their rules). This incident is simply the latest example of that.
Don't know what Silver is talking about. Given that this was completely caused by the Democrats by insisting that their pet project takes precedence over the whole government, and given that they have long treated shutting down the government as akin to starting WWIII - I am astounded that the average American is so incredibly gullible. This is a great poll for the Democrats; they should have gotten 0%.
Nate Silver to Dems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwOJlOI1nU
Mitch McConnell wanted to cave all along. This is kabuki theater.
Trump had better not cave on Illegal immigration - or he's finished.
If peeps had wanted DACA and open borders - we'd have nominated Jeb!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42751715
this is what is supposed to happen when you commit illegal actions on your children.
Let's not forget that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Clinton. He will ultimately be impeached when Mueller finishes his criminal investigation. Then, it's off to a federal penitentiary for the lot of them. Blacks, Mexicans, and Muslims justifiably hate racist Trump, so it is quite likely that he, and the rest of his cabinet get shanked up while in the bighouse. C'est la vie.
BTW, National review has a new Editorial by their "Managing Editor"
NR has finally dropped the mask and is officially for open borders now.
NR now defines "Conservatism" as support for: Internationalism, Hillary, Bad trade deals, Open Borders, Gay marriage, and trillion dollar deficits.
LOL, hey Trumpit, you are parodying yourself, but thanks for the laugh!
Meanwhile Schumer couldn’t even win his shutdown showdown with the entire press on his side!
“Senate Democrats relinquished on the government shutdown Monday, agreeing to vote to reopen the government but insisting they’ll keep fighting for illegal immigrant ‘Dreamers’ over the next weeks, with another shutdown deadline looming Feb. 8.”
Trumpit: "Let's not forget that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Clinton"
LOL
A lonely, wounded and abandoned lefty soldier. Left alone on "Lost Narrative Island" that the dem/lefty home office completely forgot about.
Living in a cave, scavenging roots and bugs for meals and awaiting a rescue....that will never come.
Perhaps in about 10 years someone will take pity on Trumpit and "rescue" him/her/xim/xer/xit from this scenario.
Until then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFsnB2Fb9Z8
LOL
Never mind.
The Dems overplayed their hand and Trump called their bluff.
But it's not over. Remember, this is a three week extension.
”Conservatism” as support for: Internationalism...
Yeah, the neocons are all for the war mongering Hillary. The farce that launched a thousand refugee ships.
I think that the neocons have noticed that the war drums along the Potomac are being beating by Democrats these days. War with Russia! Wouldn’t that be great! Maybe to much to hope for, but a little proxy war would be nice! Hillary was great at those.
Punchbowl’s empty Trumpit! Time to go home and sleep it off.
I predict more democrat retreats happening soon.
2018 is going to be glorious.
Mostly I am thrilled that Trump is defeating the enemies of freedom so thoroughly this may end peacefully.
Trumpit is a moby purposelessly making leftists look bad.
David: "But it's not over. Remember, this is a three week extension."
Doesn't matter.
The dems have no leverage, as was just proven.
Trump and allies have nothing to lose and everything to gain by holding firm and forcing the dems hands on actual funding of the border wall (and I would include the mechanism to take money from funds that flow to Mexico to pay for that), completely stopping chain migration, the visa lotteries, full e-verify, and a couple other items as well.
It the dems do that, I would agree to protected status for the DACA adults (and some kids) that would phase in full rights over a long, long period of time.
If Trump sticks to that, along with his continued and astonishing strength on the economic/drain the swamp/social issues and religious freedom fronts, we will finally have had the dream conservative President we always wanted.
And we will simply have to shake our heads and marvel that it took a Trump to deliver it, and be very grateful nonetheless.
The DACA kids, now age 30+ ,are going to get offered a status of some sort, but their 30 relatives apiece are still SOL. Since Schumer will never allow that, the DACA kids are SOL too.
NR now defines "Conservatism" as support for: Internationalism
IIRC, NR was down with NAFTA and other free trade agreements back in the 90s. It was the labor unions and other, traditionally Democrat, voting blocs that argued against it. Those blocs have moved to Trump now, pretty much remaking the GOP. Rank and file union guys are Trump supporters while the union leadership is pretty much reduced to grumbling that Trump doesn't really care about them. Meanwhile, Trump is chipping away at the black and Hispanic voters. Remember, he doesn't have to have a majority of those voters, just a slightly larger percentage of what a Republican usually gets, and there is absolutely no way the Democrat party can win the presidency. Its not surprising the Democrats are starting to run around like their hair is on fire. They are in trouble and they know it.
They may have started out with the more sympathetic position, but I'm not sure they've had the stronger messaging.
Remember all the times they looked at Hillary's poll numbers and said, "Oh, the people just need to know the REAL Hillary"?
These are the same people one year later.
Readering wrote:
"Not sure why Dems made fight on cloture when Republicans seemed to lack votes on CR itself"
Let's say the Democrats had provided 9 votes for cloture and 40 against- in that case the Republicans were likely to get all 51 to vote for the CR since it was a simple CR devoid of immigration legislation. Once it was clear that the Democrats by themselves were going to defeat cloture, those 4 Republicans were free to vote against it, too. The only way the Democrats could have freed themselves from blame for the shutdown was to do what they did today- ensure there were not going to be 41 votes against cloture, and this is exactly what they did.
Not surprised by this poll. All weekend long, my lib friends/family were posting "why are people blaming Democrats" and then reciting Dem talking points (for the FIRST TIME EVER GOP controls both houses and Pres. . . .blah blah blah). They knew that the GOP was wining this one - and couldn't understand why.
GOP is racist/evil/knuckle draggers isn't working for them anymore.
Kevin’s right. Why isn’t chain migration for the 600K dreamers 50 points ahead?!?
The wall just got 10ft. of jello higher.
It's time to place Americans, black, white, and babies, first; reaffirm the goals of immigration to include assimilation and integration; and address the clear and progressive problem of emigration reform.
Those videos of Pelosi and Schumer describing the 2013 shutdown were decisively bad for the Democrats- seriously, you rarely see such detailed and irrefutable recorded evidence of hypocrisy. Those videos had to be taken down and the only way to do that was to vote for the CR this afternoon.
traditionalguy: "The DACA kids, now age 30+ ,are going to get offered a status of some sort, but their 30 relatives apiece are still SOL. Since Schumer will never allow that, the DACA kids are SOL too"
There is a short term and a long term aspect to this and we will soon see which is most important.
Long term, obviously, Schumer cannot cave to ending chain migration. It's the only sure-fire way to ensure the dems gain permanent majorities forever.
Short term though, this is a problem, since Trump has shown that, unlike all of the LLR and establishment republicans, he will fight a scorched-earth strategy exposing the lefties and what they are all about. And Trump will communicate that effectively.
Can Schumer weather the inevitable setbacks in the short term that Trump will deliver in order to fight the long game?
We will see.
“Then, it’s off to a federal penitentiary for the lot of them. Blacks, Mexicans, and Muslims justifiably hate racist Trump, so it is quite likely that he, and the rest of his cabinet get shanked up while in the bighouse”
Quite an implication there, i.e. that all? most? occupants of federal penitentiaries are Black, Mexican, and/or Muslim...
Continuing on the topic of recognized and unrecognized bias, however, I find the subject of media bias to be a fascinating one, and this current situation illustrates some aspects of it very well. I’ve been on a quest for some time now for a news source that is intentionally neutral. (Insofar as such a thing is possible, of course) I’ve come up largely empty in my search. I read this blog in great part because Ann appears to make an effort towards that, but of course this is not a ‘news’ site per se.
Do any of the commenters here a. wish for the same thing, and b. have any sites they can point me to?
Meade: "The wall just got 10ft. of jello higher"
I still like the idea someone put forth that each section of the wall would have a sponsor, just like at baseball fields.
For instance: "Can't Touch This", sponsored by Capitol Records.
As I understand it at this point, cloture was passed but the vote to reopen has not yet been taken, although 'the votes are there'.
Which makes the NYT wrong. I'm shocked!!!
Nate Silver needs to give us what the current odds are that Sweet Old Bill Clinton will take a plea deal to escape doing jail time in exchange for spilling the beans on Crooked Hillary and Evil Obama. I say 60/ 40 that he squeals.
mockturtle: "Which makes the NYT wrong. I'm shocked!!!"
I would ask someone from the NYT about this, but I'm still waiting for Tillerson to quit.
Its not surprising the Democrats are starting to run around like their hair is on fire. They are in trouble and they know it.
The blue tidal wave seems to be petering out a bit too. Dems need a huge lead in generic ballot to convert to a win. Probably because they are so concentrated in their districts, where Republicans tend to live side by side with moderate Democrats. There are “Blue State Coffee” shops in Boston. Kind of like the Rascals “He Man Women Haters Club” I don’t know if one would ever see “Red State Coffee.”
Shoomer got nothing — NOTHING — in this collapse. It was almost political malpractice. Now when Feb. 8 rolls around, shutdown is off the table. And that was the only leverage Dems had.
traditionalguy: "Nate Silver needs to give us what the current odds are that Sweet Old Bill Clinton will take a plea deal to escape doing jail time in exchange for spilling the beans on Crooked Hillary and Evil Obama. I say 60/ 40 that he squeals"
If Billy boy were to turn states evidence against Hillary, Trump should immediately pardon Bill for any crimes he may have committed and immediately appoint him Ambassador to the Playboy Mansion.
"The wall just got 10ft. of jello higher."
The sections sponsored by Lutherans will have diced peaches suspended in the jello.
“Let's say the Democrats had provided 9 votes for cloture and 40 against- in that case the Republicans were likely to get all 51 to vote for the CR since it was a simple CR devoid of immigration legislation. Once it was clear that the Democrats by themselves were going to defeat cloture, those 4 Republicans were free to vote against it, too. The only way the Democrats could have freed themselves from blame for the shutdown was to do what they did today- ensure there were not going to be 41 votes against cloture, and this is exactly what they did.”
I think that is correct. 4 of the 5 Dems were given permission to vote the way their constituents wanted (I think that Jones may be new enough not to fully understand the concept of bare knuckles party discipline as practiced by Schumer). And the 4 Republicans were similarly privileged. Neither group was going to affect the final vote - the GOP needed 60 votes for cloture, which meant they needed 9 Dem defections. Which Schumer wasn’t going to give them, until, it seems, the polls turned against him. Nothing else mattered.
Schumer got something. He raised awareness of Democrat duplicity... and Republican resistance. Positive Progress. Ambiguous Progress. Some kind of monotonic change.
Orange jello made with collagen extracted from the skin, bones, and connective tissues of animals such as domesticated cattle, chickens, pigs, and Democrats.
I just heard in the last hour the Liberal scumbag reporter John Harwood say that the Dems would have to shutdown the government again if they don't get a deal on daca, that's an admission that it was the Dems who shut down the government. If only there was a way to get that message to the peoples, the ignorant people, AKA the Dems/Dimms.
Schumer really got schlonged.
Capitulation to re-open the government proves the Dems know the polling is unfavorable to their position.
-sw
dreams: " If only there was a way to get that message to the peoples, the ignorant people, AKA the Dems/Dimms."
Don't sweat it.
The Schumer/dems collapse tells you that the people already figured it out.
Here's what's going on just today:
- The Schumer Shutdown (talk about persuasion ) failed horribly and Trump's position has thus been validated and strengthened;
- The FBI has been caught erasing ( in their version not recording) messages from Strozk and his girl friend
- It has become clear that Lynch knew the fix was in for Hillary at the FBI;
- There is a memo circulating in Congress that "those in the know" are hinting is going to expose some high ranking DOJ and FBI officials to jail time;
- The myth of a blue wave election has been seriously damaged and a bunch of D Senators in red state are now swinging in the wind;
- Hillary Clinton is still not president:
- Inga has nothing to say.
Don’t worry, the New York Times will continue to report the pretext as the actual reason, same as Pravda always did.
Colorado Marijuana Growers sponsor a section of the coming wall:
"You'll have to go high if you want to get "high" in Colorado!"
Every great issue ultimately must get boiled down to a simple, clear thesis statement. For Dems, the great Shoomer Shutdown of 2018 boiled down to this: We prefer illegals over legals.
Not a good thing to run on, is it now, Chuck?
McCain not available today. He may be in 3 weeks, so that seems to potentially strengthen McConnell's hand.
Or Maybe Schumer wanted Pence free to travel the Middle East spreading good cheer.
readering: "McCain not available today. He may be in 3 weeks, so that seems to potentially strengthen McConnell's hand."
McCain not available today. He may be in 3 weeks, so that seems to potentially strengthen Schumer's hand.
FIFY
readering: "Or Maybe Schumer wanted Pence free to travel the Middle East spreading good cheer"
Speaking of spreading good cheer in the Middle East, how much you want to bet that Trump travels to Israel when they officially open the train station in Jerusalem named after Trump?
obama can have the wedding invite to Harry & Meghans wedding.
BTW, just how big a television extravaganza is that going to be? It'll be Diana all over again.
"I still like the idea someone put forth that each section of the wall would have a sponsor, just like at baseball fields."
I think they should have giant trebuchets every 20 miles or so. After an illegal is convicted of violent felony and does his jail time, he could be loaded onto a trebuchet and fired back into Mexico, with “sha na na sha na na, hey hey, hey goodbye…” playing in the background.
"Don't sweat it.
The Schumer/dems collapse tells you that the people already figured it out."
I think they might be catching on.
Trump train station. He'll be out of office by then. More likely to attend as POTUS opening of Jerusalem embassy.
"- Inga has nothing to say."
Give her a minute, she's probably busy researching the son of a smoking gun the FBI is finding out about Russia funneling $$ to Trump through the NRA.
readering is so worried about letting in every relative of the “Dreamers” and every relative of their relatives that it keeps her up, apparently.
At least Inga pretends it’s just about the people “already here.” Inga lives in a red state, readering a blue state, is my guess.
I saw Senator Schumer in the airport lounge in LaGuardia a couple of years ago right before Obama's putrid Iran deal. I wrote a polite note asking him to oppose the deal and put it in front of him. He looked very old. Don't these people ever get tired? He looked tired.
Exiled said...
he could be loaded onto a trebuchet and fired back into Mexico, with parachute for good behavior
FIFY ;)
Blogger readering said...
Trump train station. He'll be out of office by then. More likely to attend as POTUS opening of Jerusalem embassy.
Gosh, you don't think the train station will be finished by 2025?
The NRA could sponsor a section topped with 10 feet of ballistic gelatin. Then open up a gun range and let people shoot into it.
The shutdown is over. The Democrats got nothing.
Schumer could make a couple of omelets with all the egg he has on his face.
readering: "Trump train station. He'll be out of office by then. More likely to attend as POTUS opening of Jerusalem embassy"
The train station is expected to take about another year in bureaucratic "stuff" (as always) but then only 4 to 5 years to complete.
The would obviously fit comfortably within a Trump second term.
The Jerusalem embassy opening is a no-brainer so I didn't mention it.
exhelodrvr1 said...
The NRA could sponsor a section topped with 10 feet of ballistic gelatin. Then open up a gun range and let people shoot into it.
1/22/18, 12:55 PM
That would go over well in Texas.
When are the Democrats going to realize that Schumer, Hillary, and Pelosi are not the leaders they need? Remember when the old saying was that the “Democrats fall in love, and the Republicans fall in line”?
I am not sure the Republicans fell in line, but the Democrats sure did.
Meade: "Give her a minute, she's probably busy researching the son of a smoking gun the FBI is finding out about Russia funneling $$ to Trump through the NRA."
Andy McCarthy tore that dem lie up with his "Collusion 3.0" column.
Incidentally, wasn't the proximate cause of Nixon finally being done in the missing portion of the WH tape? Now we have the FBI "missing" 5 months of what are sure to be revealing tapes. It's too early for Schadenfreude, but he is warming up in the bullpen.
"Schumer: We will end the government shutdown today"
A revealing statement. So who is this "we" you refer to, Kemo-Sabe?
"Inga lives in a red state"
And in a very red county. Chock full of deplorable white people.
Tim in Vermont said...
Give the kids citizenship, the parents green cards, and severely limit chain migration. That’s a deal the Democrats can have at any time. They don’t want it.
I don't like that so well. They should understand that the deal is going to get worse and worse. In other words the wall getting 10 feet higher each round of brinkmanship. Limited time offer baby! Now how much would you pay? Maybe President Trump could get Ron Popeil into the Cabinet somehow.
God, I love saying "President Trump." I even cured my phone of autocompleting "Obama" after typing "President," though voice to text is still dicey.
President Trump
President Trump
President Trump
Ahahaha!
And Clinton is still just a sordid episode between the Bushes.
There MUST be a wall, why? Because there is NO WAY to remove people once they get over the border. We have never done it before, no reason to think we will do it now. You have to stop them before that and let Mexico deal with not stopping their OWN border issues.
Chain Migration is another requirement, that one I agree on, but the wall MUST be built.
This is what unconditional surrender looks like.
Congressional Republicans have seen a bounce in generic polling against Democrats after passing tax cuts last month. A new CNN poll tightened the margin to 5 points — with Democrats at 49% and Republicans at 44%. The same poll showed Democrats leading by 18 points last month.
There goes the dream of taking the House. Senate was always a pipe dream. An 18 point lead and both would have been in play, probably lost to Democrats. 5%? That’s not a lead at all.
What is on the horizon to help the Dems? 35% of Americans support the Democratic position on the “dreamers.” Russian collusion had better hit paydirt, is all I can think. Talk about “dreamers.”
The media should care more about their credibility than they do.
"When are the Democrats going to realize that Schumer, Hillary, and Pelosi are not the leaders they need?"
How about never. I didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left me... with Schumer, Hillary, and Pelosi.
A bit of a market uptick after the news.
A bit of a market uptick after the news
Happens every time Trump wins.
Trumpit is a moby purposelessly making leftists look bad.
Unavailing, isn't it, Trumpit?
The "dreamers" isn't so bad but chain migration has to be stopped.
@Meade, funny, but Ronald Reagan was saying that back in the 1970s.
Me, I lived too close to Chicago to ever respect Democrats.
Turns out all we needed was somebody willing to take the shit for telling the truth, and who didn’t need the office to get rich.
I don't care about any of this political theater over CRs.
I want both Houses to create, debate, and pass a budget.
I want the press to lean on them until they do.
I want the president to lean on them until they do.
I want the courts to lean on them until they do.
And then I want them all to do it again next year.
(Whew. Time to adjust my meds. I'm a bit more out of alignment with reality than usual.)
"Senate Democrats Agree to Deal, Government Will Re-Open Today"
===========
Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.
"A bit of a market uptick after the news."
And what a market.
”They may have started out with the more sympathetic position, but I'm not sure they've had the stronger messaging.”
Assumes facts not in evidence.
The default excuse when Progressives get defeated isn't that their ideas were bad or wrong, but that they didn't explain their bad, wrong ideas in language that the rubes could understand properly. It's similar to their excuse making of saying that working people who reject socialism are going against their own best interests.
I guess the D's discovered that shutting down the government for the sake of
illegals wasn't a winning argument. The fact that Trump was going to have an ad
campaign to flog them with this meme hurried their capitulation.
DACA for the Wall
DACA for the Wall
DACA for the Wall
This only takes us to February 8. The difference between Obama shut downs and this one is that there was never a prospect of repealing Obamacare under Obama. There is still a prospect of DACA legislation which means more resistance triggering more shut-downs is not an impossible dream.
@Big Mike
Thanks for getting the reference. And yes, the wall could probably be built two walls deep by using nothing more than the bones of dead Democrats who voted year after year in Chicago... and still do,
Meade said...
"@Big Mike
Thanks for getting the reference. And yes, the wall could probably be built two walls deep by using nothing more than the bones of dead Democrats who voted year after year in Chicago.."
St. Adalberts has it's own polling place.
Huh. The Democrats are trying the old plays that ALWAYS worked before, and suddenly, they're not working anymore.
Next thing you know, Charlie Brown is going to kick Lucy before she has a chance to pull the ball away.
Next thing you know, Charlie Brown is going to kick Lucy before she has a chance to pull the ball away.
Lucy doesn't realize that she's dealing with Bart Simpson now, not Charlie Brown.
a very red county. Chock full of deplorable white people
While there are limited supplies, deplorables are available in different colors. Get your orders in early for best selection.
It’s almost as if Shoomer has run up against a “stable genius” playing eleven dimensional chess!
When do we see Trump pose with a fist full of rings, like Tom Brady? Not tired of the winning yet.
RELEASE THE MEMO! Sorry, that just slipped out. The countdown begins until the next imaginary crisis erupts from nowhere that takes all the Media Narrative resources all of the time. Will MSNBC bomb some more airports and shopping malls? The CIA Mockingbird guys are falling down on their job.
@Meade, a lot of people besides you and Reagan have said the same thing about the party leaving them. You're in good company.
Tim in Vermont said...
Turns out all we needed was somebody willing to take the shit for telling the truth, and who didn’t need the office to get rich.
DING DING DING!! That is the truth!! Being around the MSM, President Trump knew how to play chess against their Candyland....They don't know how to handle somebody who stands up to them.
Here is the closest thing I have found to “the memo”
http://yournewswire.com/fbi-leaks-explosive-memo/
This is some fever swamp stuff, maybe, or the truth, IDK. The “Overton Window” on what is crazy or not has certainly been moved. The Brits aren’t squeamish about people’s right to privacy, or about using state surveillance powers. The Guardian is wailing about it all the time.
Republicans don't just need "the Wall" - they need an end to Chain Migration and an end to the visa lottery.
There's no point in giving people Amnesty without doing things that will PREVENT future amnesties.
Otherwise, you might as well get rid of immigration laws altogether and have open borders.
Which is what McCain and Graham have always wanted - behind the dishonest rhetoric.
Shep Smith was announcing the inevitable end to the filibuster and said something to the effect, "Where does this leave us? With a promise from the republicans to bring up legislation for the DACA kids. What does that mean? We don't know as we don't know what President Trump and the republicans want".
Really?
Shep, let me help you out:
Legal recognition for DACA recipients in exchange for:
Funding for the border wall
End to chain migration
End to lottery system
This has been on the table for a number of weeks. Why does the media pretend that they don't know what Trump wants?
I use "Wall" as a catch all to include ending Chain migration and bullshit lottery system.
One, small request:
Please don't refer to certain commenters/posters unless they've already commented in the thread.
I'd just as soon read a thread without their comments at all. Mentioning them decreases that possibility.
Thank you.
The Democrats could sponsor a section of the wall made from red jello with tiny marshmallows framing an open door.
The “deal” is to do this again in 3 weeks. I think Democrats came to realize an extended shutdown though Trump’s State of the Union speech was going to allow him to bludgeon them. So they pointed and hope to get the ball back after the Super Bowl.
@Jim -- Good point. Call it the Voldemort rule.
Nate Silver, even his hindsight isn't 20/20.
The Senate is a shithole. Fill it with dirt.
Where's the North Korean nukes when you need them?
Bart Simpson
I was thinking Dennis the Menace, but I may be just showing my age.
Democrats will have to answer for their demographic replacement strategy (i.e. color diversity or racism), Obama/Clinton's refugee crises (and trail of tears), as well as the function of Planned Parenthood (e.g. selective-child) and normalization of sexual dysfunction in their plans to gerrymander the vote and disenfranchise Americans. Also, labor, environmental, and regulatory arbitrage, and profit through redistributive change (e.g. welfare, Obamacare). Hopefully, the Republicans are not too timid to or too compromised to call out the anti-nativists, diversitists, and abortionists wherever they may lurk.
So they pointed and hope to get the ball back after the Super Bowl.
Yeah, I am sure support for the Democratic position on chain migration, which seems to be where they are digging in their heels, will go up from the low thirties to a majority by then! The facts on the ground will be totally different! Schumer will have much stronger cards!
I thought that getting “bludgeoned” by Trump just strengthened the Democrats hand? But slowly I am beginning to understand why liberals hate his Twitter feed so much.
Remember that the Democrats went from an 18 point advantage on the “generic ballot,” which spells wave election to a 5 point advantage, which says that the R’s pickup Senate seats and hold the house, in just a short time. Dems are going to have to cave, give the people already here legal papers, and come up with another way to create a proletariat for the revolution they want.
Maybe Soros can find a way to crash the markets right before the election! Keep hope alive!
Maybe they can get the Supreme Court to order Trump to spend money not allocated by Congress! Keep hope alive!
"Maybe Soros can find a way to crash the markets right before the election! Keep hope alive!"
Its a high probability that we will see a correction this year.
And things may well "overheat", i.e. inflation. That's not been a thing in a good long time.
Irrespective of politics. So there is "hope".
Let's not forget that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Clinton.
Let's not forget there's no actual evidence this is true, and that even if it was true "collusion" isn't a crime. And that while the word "stealing" implies some sort of voter fraud, what were're really talking about here is supposedly-Russian-government-connected companies spent money on Facebook ads that for all the world look like something you'd see from Clinton supporters.
Let's also not forget we had FBI agents texting each other about a "backup plan" in case Hillary lost, and further the FBI seems to have (oopsie!) misplaced the text messages Congressional investigators looking into the matter wanted to see (but not others, apparently). People connected with Barack Obama seemed to have incredibly bad luck when it comes to producing email and text messages that may be evidence of illegal behavior.
rcocean: "Republicans don't just need "the Wall" - they need an end to Chain Migration and an end to the visa lottery"
Walls are effective, but only everywhere they are tried.
The other items you mention are just as important but the Wall is a key visual/branding "symbol" that Trump will not abandon. Nor should he.
The Wall serves multiple purposes.
buwaya said...
Its a high probability that we will see a correction this year.
And things may well "overheat", i.e. inflation. That's not been a thing in a good long time.
Wages are going up. Companies are actually hiring now. Home Depot had numerous positions to fill in the 3 stores I went to regularly for the last several years but they never increased the wages they were offering. They were badly understaffed.
This year they increased wages. The stores are actually almost fully staffed now.
Of course the people who run wall street and own DC cannot allow this to pass. They will raise interest rates until companies are forced to stop investing. They do not want the peons earning any more than necessary.
As for the correction that was baked in. Obama printed 1 Trillion dollars a year and borrowed 1 trillion dollars a year for 8 years.
That is well over 10% of our GDP. We averaged less than 2% growth during those years.
Interesting from Vanity Fair on Trump and Kelly:
“I’VE GOT ANOTHER NUT JOB HERE WHO THINKS HE’S RUNNING THINGS”
Just saw this from Gallup on consumer confidence: http://news.gallup.com/poll/223439/snapshot-economic-confidence-holds-strong.aspx?g_source=WWWV7HP&g_medium=topic&g_campaign=tiles
Look at that jump.
Refer to this next time someone talks about how Mr. Trump is just trying to reap the dividends of eight years of Mr. Obama's wise economic policies.
Blogger Meade said...
@Big Mike
Thanks for getting the reference. And yes, the wall could probably be built two walls deep by using nothing more than the bones of dead Democrats who voted year after year in Chicago... and still do,
But never in Madison, right Meade?
And there is no need for voter ID cards at registration and voting. Right Inga?
Or even physical presence for voting. Right ARM?
We don't understand these kinds of jokes here in Puerto Rico. It is damn near impossible for anyone to vote twice or illegally. Voter ID cards and very very few absentee ballots and no early voting. If you don't care enough to show up personally, you don't care enough to vote and don't get to.
This confidence in our elections results in higher turnouts of eligible voters than most places have of registered voters.
I just don't understand how you folks in the upper 50 put up with this kind of crap.
John Henry
Too good to wait for cafe post:
nor am I in the market for a lesson from Jane Fonda on what is and is not appropriate,” Kelly said. She added, “After all, this is a woman whose name is synonymous with outrage. Look at her treatment of our military during the Vietnam war. Many of our veterans still call her Hanoi Jane thanks to her radio broadcast which attempted to shame Americans troops. “She posed on an anti-aircraft gun used to shoot down our American pilots. She called our POW’s hypocrites and liars and referred to their torture as understandable. Even she had to apologize years later for that gun picture, but not for the rest of it.” Kelly closes the segment saying, “She has no business lecturing anyone on what is offensive.”
Uncle Biffy,
I am a bit behind here but did McConnell agree to pass DACA? My understanding is that he just agreed to bring it up for debate. It would still have to get 60 votes to pass AND the House has to pass it AND President DWT has to sign it. (DWT for Donald Winning Trump)Odds of that happening? Especially now when the Demmies have shown they got nothing at all?
I would say slim at best.
Shithole Schumer got shitcanned.
John Henry
Does anyone interact with Jell-O anymore? I don't think I have eaten the stuff in... well, I think I did all my Jell-O eating in the 1950s and 60s.
Im the same age as Bill Bryson, who wrote this in his memoir of growing up in Iowa:
"Iowa has always been proudly middling in all its affairs. It stands in the middle of the continent, between the two mighty central rivers, the Missouri and Mississippi, and throughout my childhood always ranked bang in the middle of everything—size, population, voting preferences, order of entry into the Union. We were slightly wealthier, a whole lot more law-abiding, and more literate and better educated than the national average, and ate more Jell-O (a lot more—in fact, to be completely honest, we ate all of it), but otherwise have never been too showy at all."
Bryson, Bill. The Life and Times of the Thunderbolt Kid: A Memoir (p. 171). Crown Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The "intentionally neutral" just go to the ovens last...
McCain was a no show for Arizona again.
I grew up in the 70s, but my Mom had Jello all the time. We also had Koolaid. But we didn't give it to our kid. There's nothing wrong with it, its just not very nutritious.
And once I left home, I never felt the need to have it again.
We also had "Tang" which the astronauts drank.
Hey, we believed it.
One does not interact with Jell-o. One interfaces with it. The bear interacts with the buckwheat.
In one of Jim Butcher's great "Harry Dresden" books (why there hasn't been a movie I'll never know..), Dresden (a powerful though at this point way-overmatched wizard) contemplates a hail Mary move that may win the day or burn out his brain. He reflects, to the effect: "Maybe they'll have Jello at the home. I like Jello."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dresden_Files_(TV_series)
Someone else who likes Harry Dresden! I wish I had a dog like Mouse. Or a friend like Lt. Murphy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dresden_Files_(TV_series)
Yep, I know that. It was as good as you would expect a low-profile series on "SCI-FI" to be. That's why I said movie :-(
(Though I wouldn't say no to an HBO treatment, though there are only occasional breasts as Harry is a gentleman..)
We should allow as many children from shithole countries, as are terminated by our citizens.
About 600,000 a year.
(World Famous Lurker says....)
Nice Dresden reference Unknown. Harry pretty much gets turned into a form of jello in every book. Let's see, he had his left hand and arm burnt to a stump, had his back broken, innumerable broken bones and cuts, and oh yeah, he got killed once - had to come back in the next book as a ghost. Turned out that he was only "mostly dead", like in "Princess Bride".
Butcher is overdue to release the next book in the series.
Darkisland, I believe McConnell agreed to debate DACA by 8 Feb.
The MSM, and apparently Shep Smith, have been pretending that the televised meeting that Trump had a couple/few weeks ago where he said something to the effect of, "give me an agreement, any agreement, and I'll sign", was a literal statement. Therefore, when Lindsey Graham took it upon himself to agree to amnesty with the democrats while not consulting anyone else in his party or providing any of the requirements that President Trump stipulated during the meeting, President Trump was honor bound to accept the "bipartisan" deal. Since Trump refused to accept that farce the MSM is contending that he lied during the meeting and since he lied there is no way to determine what he really wants.
Butcher is overdue to release the next book in the series.
Yeah, he's late. Not Martin-late, but late.
We don't get the next Cinder Spires this year either apprently.
Maybe '84 Lumber will try another ad series making all Mexican kids out to be saints who cure cancer.
Granted, views of the Superbowl this year are going to be lower by at least one this year...and I think a lot more than that. Gonna take a knee at watching the Superbowl.
Maybe Butcher's new 'cosplaying' wife is keeping him busy. Or maybe he is racking up divorce number 2.
Unclebiffy,
The MSM, and apparently Shep Smith, have been pretending that the televised meeting that Trump had a couple/few weeks ago where he said something to the effect of, "give me an agreement, any agreement, and I'll sign", was a literal statement. Therefore, when Lindsey Graham took it upon himself to agree to amnesty with the democrats while not consulting anyone else in his party or providing any of the requirements that President Trump stipulated during the meeting, President Trump was honor bound to accept the "bipartisan" deal. Since Trump refused to accept that farce the MSM is contending that he lied during the meeting and since he lied there is no way to determine what he really wants.
When Mom and Dad take the kids to Carvel/Baskin-Robbins/Dairy Queen and say, "OK kids, Daddy got a raise today, you can order anything you want," that means they can have one, two or three scoops of any flavor, or the banana split, or the Super Frosty or whatever, the best thing on the menu.
It doesn't mean you can have the whole 3 gallon tub, or the soft-serve machine. Trump is thisclose to sending them to bed without any supper.
President Trump, what is best in life?
President Trump: To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women.
Good one, cronus!
Hard to argue with this lede in New Yorker:
In the end, it took two weeks for Washington to agree on how it will fund the government for the next three weeks.
Does anyone interact with Jell-O anymore? I don't think I have eaten the stuff in... well, I think I did all my Jell-O eating in the 1950s and 60s.
There's nothing wrong with a good Jell-O salad.
"Legal recognition for DACA recipients in exchange for:
Funding for the border wall
End to chain migration
End to lottery system"
He was pretty clear in the Tues meeting what his baseline was. He even threw in a few he would negotiate on, such as a merit system. Durbin was well aware of this. Objections that he was trying to do a comprehensive deal were met with "you guys can work out a comprehensive deal later, let's just get this part done". When Dems repeatedly said he should do DACA only Trump repeated his bottom line again. And again. Everyone in the room knew what was being said, and what the bottom line was.
Readering: "Hard to argue with this lede in New Yorker:
In the end, it took two weeks for Washington to agree on how it will fund
the government for the next three weeks."
Nice try. It took 2 weeks for the democrats to figure out that they were willing to accept the deal already on the table to simply fund the govt and debate immigration (a non-budget policy battle) separately.
But once again, when the dems screw up suddenly its everybody thats at fault.
Uh huh.
Ah, by John Fund at the NRO: Democrats Fear Debate about Dreamers Will Pivot to One on ‘Chain Migration’. Saying something that I have been saying here for awhile:
One reason Democrats are nervous is that the longer the shutdown goes on, the longer voters will start to realize the Democrats are fighting not so much for the Dreamers — people brought to this country as children by adults who entered illegally — but for the concepts of “chain migration” and the “diversity lottery,” which have done so much to warp our immigration policy and make it a shambles.
Ever since the passage of the late Senator Ted Kennedy’s immigration reform of 1965, legal immigrants have been able to petition for parents, adult brothers and sisters, and adult sons and daughters to come to the U.S. All of those groups can bring their own spouses and children. In turn, when they become citizens they can sponsor their own relatives, and the cycle continues. Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies wrote: “The result is chain migration, in which yesterday’s immigrants decide who tomorrow’s immigrants will be.”
...
Bush and Bolick point out that the lack of an effective and rational work-visa system similar to the one that Canada and Australia use has cost this country in several ways. First, as the Wall Street Journal editorial page points out, it creates an unbalanced immigration flow: “It makes sense to focus on uniting nuclear families with dependent children rather than extended families.” Second, it has contributed to a polarizing immigration debate because Americans can’t accept that a doctor from Greece can’t immigrate here while a cab driver from Guatemala who is someone’s cousin can. Right now, only one in 15 of the more than 1 million immigrants who are admitted every year are given a visa because of their job skills or entrepreneurial ability. And third, the focus on family unification, and the resulting lack of a rational work-visa program, means that for most aspiring immigrants, their only choice is the arbitrary “diversity lottery” whereby visas are awarded randomly to 55,000 foreigners. As Jeb Bush and Clint Bolick point out, “there are roughly 250 applicants for each [diversity] visa every year. The absence of a meaningful avenue of access increases the pressure for illegal immigration.”
...
Democrats who precipitated the shutdown love to cite statistics that show that 80 percent of Americans want to allow the Dreamers to stay — as no doubt any final resolution will allow. But they should worry that the longer the shutdown debate is focused on immigration, the more Americans will come to realize it’s about our underlying U.S. immigration policy — and Democrats are coming to realize just how shaky defending that ground might become.
READERING... As Greg Gutfeld said, At this pace, in 3 more years, President Trump may have 'fixed it' and just go home and retire.
Does anyone interact with Jell-O anymore? I don't think I have eaten the stuff in... well, I think I did all my Jell-O eating in the 1950s and 60s.
Two words: Jello shots
Darkisland,
My grandfather was a diehard Republican farmer until he passed.
He has been a diehard Democrat since then.
- Former Chicagoan
I have no doubt this was noted by someone above. I could probably search and quote them, and just say me too, but in a different sense. But I rather just add my voice to the chorus:
Why does anyone still listen to Nate Silver? He wasn't even close in his prediction of the 2016 election. If his model is so great, how was it so wrong? He raised Hillary's chances by 5% in the last 24 hours, which is a feat that even Hillary Clinton didn't believe happened during that time frame. And I know ESPN purchased his services and model; but it sucks at predicting sport outcomes too. You would think that at some point, others would be embarrassed that they even thought Nate Silver was a good prognosticator. I rather get my predictions from Punxsutawney Phil.
I do accept noting Nate Silver's comments because so many intellectuals do listen to him. I get it. But you do have to wonder if those intellectuals will ever understand how foolish they appear.
STILL not tired of the winning! #MAGA
I prefer the old Soviet joke format, A Soviet visits Chicago and talks to a minister. The minister asks "What will you be when you die." Soviet replies "I will be made into fertilizer for use of State, what will you become?" "I will be made into a Democrat, for the use of the Mayor."
Actually these sound a bit too tired to be funny anymore.
How about never. I didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left me..
Right. People who say this stuff really have to clarify what it was about the 1932 - 1980 Democratic party that they were in it for in the first place. The 90+% top marginal tax rate? The high emphasis on public works/infrastructure? The imperialistic liberal military policy?
What was it about the Democratic Party that "changed" over that time period, exactly? Other than the defection of many white segregationists from it after LBJ passed the CRA... Hmmm....
As for the correction that was baked in. Obama printed 1 Trillion dollars a year and borrowed 1 trillion dollars a year for 8 years.
That is well over 10% of our GDP. We averaged less than 2% growth during those years.
Well, he could have taken the 2002 - 2007 path to Republican economic mismanagement but there are normal people out there who don't think that 2008 was worth all that.
I'm starting to realize that there's not really a point to commenting here. It's basically a forum for right-wingers who don't realize and don't care that their minority opinion accounts for less than 35% (at most) of the country's voices to cheerlead and spin everything that happens as if it were some sort of positive-only fortune-telling exercise for the Republican Party. They might as well read entrails, or tea leaves, put on pleated skirts and pom poms, and learn chants that all end with, "Goooooooooooo REPUBLICANS!"
It's just a cheerleading exercise, not a discussion. It's training for building aerial pyramids and twirling their fellow Republicans in the air while they pump up the true believers.
"People who say this stuff really have to clarify what it was about the 1932 - 1980 Democratic party that they were in it for in the first place."
The Democratic party - during that time - claimed to be the party of the working class and average Joe. It was for labor unions, social security, medicare, and using the Government to keep the economy growing. It was also willing to tax rich people.
After a certain point it stopped being about those things and morphed into an Anti-white, anti-American, coalition of Billionaires/Millionaires at the top and poor, dumb people at bottom. That's when normal people said "No, thanks".
"It's just a cheerleading exercise, not a discussion. It's training for building aerial pyramids and twirling their fellow Republicans in the air while they pump up the true believers."
Yawn. The same old lefty bullshit. "We just want to exchange new viewpoints" "Aren't you open to new ideas?" "Have you ever wondered if your right-wing views were wrong?" "Hey, I just want a discussion"
Then wen the Lefties have power: "Shut up you bigot, or we're going to get you fired" "Do we really need to have dangerous views on campus? They're so hateful".
Hey Toothless: show me all the left-wing websites where you guys just want to "Discuss contrary views" and "Have an exchange of differing ideas"
LOL!
Now we have the FBI "missing" 5 months of what are sure to be revealing tapes.
Chuck never responded to this with a triumphant "These aren't tapes! You idiot!!!"? He's off his game.
Now we have the FBI "missing" 5 months of what are sure to be revealing tapes.
Rose Mary Woods, call your office.
Why can we not have a Federal Government shutdown that lasts long enough to do some good?
"They might as well read entrails, or tea leaves, put on pleated skirts and pom poms, and learn chants that all end with, "Goooooooooooo REPUBLICANS!""
Holy F!
The reason yur disappointed w/ these threads (not to mention the posts) is exactly why I enjoy them.
It's especially fun to see these folks jabber about the power being taken away from the "swamp" and the "GOPE".
Enjoy it! I do. Of course, I can see how it'd be less amusing if this stuff didn't directly, massively benefit you.
Still, I think that I'd think it was funny.
I dunno.
Ritmo said...”I'm starting to realize that there's not really a point to commenting here.”
Then take a hike.
James K: Chuck never responded to this with a triumphant "These aren't tapes! You idiot!!!"? He's off his game.
Wonder where Chuck and the rest of the gang are? Maybe they had to go to their grandma's funeral this evening.
Butcher is overdue to release the next book in the series.
He seems to be focused on his graphic novels lately.
How wrong can 1 article be. CNN reporting style on steroids
"In the government shutdown standoff, Democrats have all the leverage"
http://theweek.com/articles/749880/government-shutdown-standoff-democrats-have-all-leverage
Big Mike, are Butcher's graphic novels fresh tales? I see them on Amazon when checking to see if Peace Talks is out but they look to be graphic renditions of The Dresden Files. I looked at a sample of Gaiman's Sandman and, while I could see they had done a lot of work to digitize it, that graphic work, which I love, didn't work for me, although I did like the more saturated colors.
The Graphic novels (which are generally published as a series of standard comics and then collected) are considered in continuity and are fresh tales. Some of them Butcher writes and some of them he just plots and approves.
The Unholy Triad (Durbin, Schemer, and Graham) have stealthily maneuvered Trump and his demon underlord, the Stephen of Miller, into an untenable position.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-bold-fold-shifts-the-pressure-on-to-trump-and-his-gop-enablers
After a certain point it stopped being about those things and morphed into an Anti-white, anti-American, coalition of Billionaires/Millionaires at the top and poor, dumb people at bottom.
So you opposed it when it dumped the Southern segregationists who bolted for the Republicans upon LBJ's signing of the CRA. Got it.
And when Ronald Reagan recast the poor as (exclusively black) "welfare queens."
Got that, too.
That's when normal people said "No, thanks".
"Normal people" = "the uninformed and easily misled"
"We just want to exchange new viewpoints" "Aren't you open to new ideas?" "Have you ever wondered if your right-wing views were wrong?" "Hey, I just want a discussion"
Translation: "My right-wing hatred for evidence is an interesting viewpoint in itself! Respect it! Respect my feelings and the way it disregards factual reality!"
Then wen the Lefties have power: "Shut up you bigot, or we're going to get you fired"
Hey there, dummy. I think it's called corporations and THE LAW. Try getting your free market to buy into your stupid proposal that it shouldn't market to (and hire) from within a diverse marketplace. Or that bosses wouldn't get sued for practicing racial discrimination. Man, are you dumb. But certainly not bigoted. No, siree!
Like I said, you just oppose everything that naturally follows from the Civil Rights Act. I know you can't admit it. But you basically just said it. And your politics is a natural expression of that, the only conclusion possible.
”I'm starting to realize that there's not really a point to commenting here.”
Then...
Then I thank you for admitting that you agree with my observation that you're mindless cheerleaders.
Ritmo is in da house!
Good night all.
It was for labor unions, social security, medicare, and using the Government to keep the economy growing. It was also willing to tax rich people.
All things that the right-wing Republicans vehemently oppose. And build their opposition to into everything they stand for.
After a certain point it stopped being about those things and morphed into an... coalition of Billionaires/Millionaires
Because Bill Clinton relented and accepted that the right had won, and that he would do anything they asked of him to stay in office. And then he proceeded to rebuild the DNC in the image his own, capitalistic DLC.
You people really don't know all that much, do you? It's not like the answers aren't out there.
Awwww. The emotional little Francisco D. got his feelings hurt, evewybody.
Let's all give him a hug. He needs one.
He's going beddy-bye.
What a sweet wittle boy.
Toothless. We are many. Many more than those who believe in current Democrat values. That is why we run 25 states totally. That is why we have 35 Republican governors. That is why you are segregated into tiny dots on the map.
You want to sell the idea that we are few and impotent. I think you better think it out again.
Oh, my goodness. Liberals got the sadzies. Maybe a post-shutdown group cry cry session will make better. Cory Booker has graciously agreed to be the cry cry leader.
Toothless. We are many. Many more than those who believe in current Democrat values. That is why we run 25 states totally. That is why we have 35 Republican governors. That is why you are segregated into tiny dots on the map.
Slaveowners too had power way out of proportion to their numbers. Hell! They even convinced poor white Southern yokels to fight on their behalf, as well.
Didn't work in the end, though. The movement was misaligned against its purported beneficiaries/supporters. Imagine that.
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