Wrote "fellow romance novelist Eve Ortega" to Heidi Bond, who clerked for 9th Circuit Judge Alex Kozinski and "who went on to clerk for the Supreme Court and now works as a romance novelist writing under the name Courtney Milan," quoted in the WaPo article "Prominent appeals court Judge Alex Kozinski accused of sexual misconduct."
Bond is now saying that the judge "called her into his office several times and pulled up pornography on his computer, asking if she thought it was photoshopped or if it aroused her sexually.... One set of images she remembered was of college-age students at a party where 'some people were inexplicably naked while everyone else was clothed.' Another was a sort of digital flip book that allowed users to mix and match heads, torsos and legs to create an image of a naked woman."
The "pornography" wasn't related to any legal case. I'm putting "pornography" in quotes because I don't think of photographs of a naked person as "pornography." Is this Renoir painting pornography?
It's bad — it's atrocious! — but it's not pornography. If I ask you whether you find those Renoir women sexually attractive, am I sexually harassing you? Is the workplace hostile if X lets you see that he's looking at a picture of a naked person and asks if you find that naked person sexually attractive? I mean, anybody can see from the vantage point of today that it's a bad idea to interact like that in the workplace, but I think a proportionate reaction would be to agree that we shouldn't be doing that and move forward.
A few personal footnotes:
1. I've met Judge Kozinski and like him, though I haven't seen him in a long time. I think he's more casual, freewheeling, and individualistic than most judges. In fact, what I remember most about talking to Judge Kozinski is that when he attempted to tell me how to become a federal judge, I said I didn't want to be a federal judge: it's better to be a law professor, precisely because you have more personal freedom and can express yourself in a less conventional, more individualistic style.
2. The only time I've ever watched actual pornography was in the chambers of the federal judge I was clerking for. A box of VCR tapes had been seized by the U.S. government en route to some man whose wife actually showed up in court to argue that those tapes were good for her relationship with her husband. So the videos needed to be watched to determine if they reached the level of "obscenity" within the meaning of First Amendment law. I have a vivid image of seeing "my" judge reading legal briefs next to a TV screen closeup of well-lit genitalia.
3. My idea of the meaning of "pornography" is grounded in the 1980s and early 90s when feminists set aside the concept of "obscenity" and spoke instead of "pornography," which they defined as "the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures and/or words." That idea for legislation had a lot of problems and never got very far, but the point is, it was an effort to get at the real problem of the subordination of women. I was a law professor when those things were happening and I wrote and taught about some of these subjects, and the ideas about subordination and inequality still affect what I think about claims relating to seeing pictures of people naked.
And...
Here's the Amazon page for Courtney Milan.
People seem to like her books. I've never read any of them. I don't look at pornography and I don't read romance books. Just my personal preference. But I was amused by the biographical statement on that Amazon page:Before she started writing historical romance, Courtney got a graduate degree in theoretical physical chemistry from UC Berkeley. After that, just to shake things up, she went to law school at the University of Michigan and graduated summa cum laude. Then she did a handful of clerkships with some really important people who are way too dignified to be named here. She was a law professor for a while. She now writes full-time.I too was a law professor for a while and now write full-time. I'm impressed by her background and her career choices, including the earlier sloughing off the lawprof persona and recreating herself as a freely expressive writer.
ADDED: Here's an article from 2015 on Heidi Bond/Courtney Milan. This seems to be from the University of Michigan Law School, presenter her as a successful alumna. We're told that her romance novels, set in the 19th century, include details about "judges, lawyers, and courts as well as epidemiological studies and complex calculus."
“Everything that happens and everything that I learn or think or feel is fair game for ending up in a book,” she says. “All these things are tools that can be used.”...Her encounters with Judge Kozinski are part of "everything that happens," and perhaps she has used that somewhere in her writing, which sounds high-level (and I'm not going to look down my at romance novels (to the extent that I'm an art snob, it's not about sticking to the high side of the high-art/low-art distinction)).
Bond/Milan also seems to have done very well financially:
In early 2014, Yahoo Finance ran a story featuring Bond among a handful of other writers with the headline: “These Romance Writers Ditched Their Publishers for E-Books-and Made Millions.”
“Some of the most exciting entrepreneurs in the U.S. today aren’t hoodie-wearing app developers,” the article says, “they’re women writing books for women and making millions in the process.” The article quotes Bond as one of the pioneering authors who decided to stop selling her books to mainstream publishers and instead launch her novels independently. The result yielded more control over what she was producing while successfully targeting e-book readers who wanted to buy digital copies of books often for less money and more frequently than traditional publishing could produce them....
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112 comments:
Law Professor by day
Call girl by night
Physical chemistry to law professor to romance novelist.
Lady's choice of career has been dropping like a stone.
which they defined as
How pornographic is a naked dog if you call the tail a leg?
the real problem of the subordination of women
The poor little dears are paid more than the naughty men who victimize them.
Kozonski has been in trouble before.
In 2008, The Los Angeles Times revealed Kozinski "maintained a publicly accessible website featuring sexually explicit photos and videos."[14] Kozinski had collected a "vast" number of images sent to him via e-mail over many years and retained them on a personal web server in his home. Only a "small fraction" of the images were offensive. Kozinski believed that only invited friends and family were able to view the image directory.[15] Nonetheless, he called for an ethics investigation of himself.[16] In July 2009, a panel headed by Judge Anthony Scirica wrote that Kozinski should have administered his web server more carefully, but Kozinski's apology and deletion of the web site "properly conclude" the matter.
That was before the present "Cultural Revolution."
When I was in college, my girlfriend asked me to set up some "stag movies" as pornography was called them]n, so her sorority sisters could see them.
I set up the movies and projector in my apartment and left so they could view all they wanted to.
The Renoir is more Kardashian than pornography
And the frenzy shudders to a halt.
Either outside of Hollywood, New York media circles and congress the issue isn't as bad as described, or the status quo is preferable to the moral panic and neo Puritanical frenzy, but it is grinding to a halt.
The response to the Democrat response to Franken will show.
She felt cowed.
Big Mike said...
Physical chemistry to law professor to romance novelist.
Lady's choice of career has been dropping like a stone.
Back when I was in the business of hiring interns, we preferred the ones with Bs in Pchem. The ones who got As were too serious.
@Althouse, didn't you post a picture just a few days ago that people were alleging was child porn?
Perhaps the judge was studying up for future pornography cases, so that he’d be able to apply the “know it when I see it” standard.
When you’ve been called into someone’s office “several times” to watch porn with that person, your credibility to later call it sexual harassment goes down with each time. And if you later develop a lucrative career writing bodice rippers, you might actually look back on the experience differently than someone else who remained in the legal profession. So Heidi Bond is being true to her personal experience.
I searched google scholar for any publications Ms. Bond may have authored or co-authored as a physical chemist. It's the normal metric of judging success. I found nothing.
Physical chemistry to law professor to romance novelist.
Lady's choice of career has been dropping like a stone.
The woman who has written the "outlander" series of novels has a science PhD.
It's mostly Biology , but "She was a professor with an expertise in scientific computation at ASU for 12 years before leaving to write full-time."
I've read some of her novels and her medical stuff is pretty good.
Maybe she went for the money,. "The Outlander" series has been a money machine for years.
It must be an overwhelming temptation to bring down a man -- any man -- if you're a certain type of woman.
I don't know what was going on with the good judge, and I bet he doesn't either. Still, there was something going on. Counterpoint to that, just how traumatic was the experience. I can understand that she felt uncomfortable, but it just doesn't sound that ghastly. Life is full of unpleasant experiences. Why should we put such a high valence on unciomfortable sexual experiences? This will put finish to his career, but it seems kind of venial.
That picture belongs above a bar.
Not because its sexy, but because its nudes, and its rather jolly.
There was a genre of these, late 19th-early 20th century, bar-room paintings.
Heidi Bond? Is that her nom de plume? It certainly evokes images of flaxen-haired maidens struggling theatrically against black velvet manacles.
"She knew it was wrong to go to bed with a student, but she tried to put aside her role as professor of evidence and live in the moment. Deeper and deeper she was drawn into a vortex of carnality. 'Take me," she screamed, 'take me now!' He gazed into her eyes and asked longingly, 'Is that what they mean by res gestae?'"
That Renoir reminded me of the state flag of Utah. Those women’s waists look like the beehives.
Romance = physical attraction + chemical pheromones
She has properly prepared foundation for her career.
The Renoir nudes look like the daughters of the Michelin tire man.
Ahh...the good old obscenity exception to the First Amendment, with the judges and justices determining whether Deep Throat and Behind the Green Door had redeeming artistic and social value. Good times, good times.
It turns out that all those feminists who wanted you to know they controlled their own bodies also wanted to control other women's bodies.
We need to come to terms with the fact that the Left--and particularly the feminist Left-- has had it with free speech. They don't want you to have it. They are tired of arguing with you. They want you to shut up.
Fen's Law (Liberals don't believe all that stuff they lecture you about) in action.
Please Al, reconsider. #FrankenStay2018
Democrats are going to shut down this #metoo thing soon, aren’t they?
When do they start calling these women prudes and the people that believe them perverts for caring about what happens in someone’s private office?
As more and more Democrats are caught up in this panic, we’re going to stop even seeing the disclaimers we get at the tops of the “#metoo far?” articles. The disclaimers that say, “the current reckoning with sexual harassment and assault is long overdue.” That will go away.
I look forward to the next era of judgement free sex!
"The only time I've ever watched actual pornography" A full Reckoning and serious consideration of what makes sex "bad" these days etc. etc. would take the onslaught of pornography into account. (Not equating the Reckoning with serious consideration of sex, of course.)
"There was a genre of these, late 19th-early 20th century, bar-room paintings."
It's related to the 17th century formal gardens which were a contrast with the wilderness that surrounded them.
Well fed women were a sign of prosperity and plenty to eat when there were women starving in the street,
Just as Wordsworth's interest in wild places and ruins were a reaction to the previous century's formal gardens, the anorexic look popular in rich cities today are a reaction to what is perceived as obesity in the poor.
Tom Wolfe called them "Social X-rays."
More than 20 years age several of my female deputies came to see me. It seems the divorced presiding judge was making vulgar, suggestive remarks to them and hitting on them. Their concerns about confronting him were the potential negative impact on cases before him, the business of the DA's Office, and the impact on their careers. Their only question given the circumstances was who should confront him, them or me. There was no question about them tolerating it. They would not - regardless of the risks.
That was, in my opinion, how grown up women should be expected to behave.
You can never be too rich or too thin.
- Wallis, Duchess of Windsor
There is a woman, maybe mid-forties, well-dressed, who occasionally comes to the bar; when she is at the bar she sits with her drink and reads romance paperbacks. I find this interesting because a lot of the books people bring in to read are not so much for reading, but rather for people seeing you read it. You know: literature. Tolstoy as a frequent example. Sometimes it is a book with a provocative or edgy title: for instance, I have seen "I Am Not Your Negro" lately.
Then there are the younger guys reading the science fiction or horror books: those are not considered cool, but then they are reading them because they actually like them.
Which brings me back to Romance Novel Woman: from her look and demeanor I would not be surprised to see her reading the latest Hot Book on Politics -- the books that tell you that you are smart, they agree with you. It's the people in Kansas that keep fucking up, for instance. But: romance novels.
I imagine most romance novels are read in the privacy of one's home, like -- well -- porn. But there she is, reading a book with a florid cover of a Handsome Man and a Beautiful Woman. For most regulars at the bar the idea of a romance novel probably just brings to mind Fabio. Which brings to mind his "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" commercials. But that was like, what, twenty-five years ago? The guys on her covers don't really look like Fabio anymore. They want to be taken a little more seriously, perhaps. So the hair isn't quite as dramatic, say.
Maybe she reads them with some ironic detachment. But maybe she just likes the lightness, the fantasy, the reassuring storylines that culminate in a Happy Ending. Because if it doesn't end in a happy ending then it is Literature.
Maybe you sometimes want the White Knight to just be a White Knight, dammit. You don't want to find out that -- halfway through -- the guy who seemed like a White Knight turns out to be a rapist or murderer.
And that, then, is a True Crime book.
- james james
Mike Pence should start a #NotMe movement and see how many other men are willing to declare that they are certain there are no women out there who can ever bring a legitimate claim against them.
The silence would be deafening.
I remember when he got in trouble before, emailing pictures of naked women painted as cows.
I found that repulsive, and so I can imagine what pornography he sends people.
" I think a proportionate reaction would be to agree that we shouldn't be doing that and move forward."
Maybe you don't actually know any modern women, but they just can't do that. They are too scared, too intimidated, too sensitive. You must be one of those nuts who think they are capable of standing equal to men in the workplace. Centuries of oppression have left them helpless creatures like feed mice in a snake tank. There is no way to make them equal. Kill the snakes.
Here is that story in Wonkette. I tried to find it on Patterico, too, but the links he has are dead links.
At the time that came out, in 2008, it was the rubes who found such thinks to be controversial.
Off hand I can't think of another genuinely great artist who painted as many genuinely shitty pictures as Renoir.
Blogger CJ said...
"Democrats are going to shut down this #metoo thing soon, aren't they?"
No. They hope the Presidency is at stake And plan to renew the "grab 'em by the pussy" assault on Trump.
The cool kids of the internet turned on Renoir several years ago.
What now with confidence boost against stage fright ... Imagine audience without clothes???!!!
I am struck by someone achieving a Supreme Court clerkship and then becoming an author of romance novels. That is quite a career shift.
Many may still be doing that for all anyone knows.
Perhaps that was pr0n, a hundred years ago, before video. I agree this painting can hardly have been painted from life. But one gets the point, I suppose.
Derek Kite said...
And the frenzy shudders to a halt.
NOOOO! Too soon! Not enough blood! You have to know they've barely scratched the surface. The worst clique is hunkered down waiting for the storm to pass, and doubtless paying off the weathermen betimes.
Thought crime not expressed or exposed.
Anti free speech Inquisition
Are you now or have you ever used this ploy
Working with judges ... Don't people wonder what is under the robe?
For something to be sexual harassment, shouldn't there be some implication that you are having to endure this to save your job?
Way way back in the day, two guys at work showed me this porn thing (it was drawn) you could do on this Mac computer. It was all animated- this was well before you could see video on a computer. It was a drawing of a naked woman and you could make her touch herself, etc. I thought it was hilarious. Now both of these guys were my senior, but I only saw this as a funny joke. They showed me because they knew I would think it was funny, not because they wanted anything from me. But what if I decided today to declare this harassment? It seems like that's what's happening in a lot of these cases. Kind of a reflection on how young these women are realizing they were, back when they didn't realize how young they were and thought they could make their own informed decision.
The fine line separating art, erotica, and pornography. They emphasize form, feature, and function, respectively.
With KKK the mystery and dread is greater ... Who's in the robes.
The Renoir painting is art. And while the features may seem irregular and the focus, they may actually be accurate representations of the subjects. A fine line, indeed. Still, there is no effort to delve into function or what lies beneath.
“Six women have accused a federal appeals court judge of sexual misconduct, according to The Washington Post. Alex Kozinski serves on the Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit and was formerly that court's chief judge.”
Six women, not just one. I wonder if the rest of them have the same type of complaint regarding pornographic images, or was there something more?
Here’s another account:
“A woman named Emily Murphy, who clerked for a different judge on the 9th circuit, told The Washington Post of an incident when she was having a conversation about exercise with some other clerks. Kozinski interrupted to say that she should work out naked. According to Murphy and two others who were present, she tried to switch the subject without success.”
What goes on in Degas stays in Degas.
You can never be too rich or too thin.
- Wallis, Duchess of Windsor
No, it was Babe Paley, the youngest daughter of Harvey Cushing, the father of neurosurgery.
The best line about the Windsors was that he was "Third mate on a tramp out of Baltimore."
I was most struck by @Althouse's comment about never having watched pornography.
I would be somewhat surprised if you could find a mature man in 'Merica below the age of 70 who could say that.
Though maybe don't ask in front of our wives, thanks, asking for a friend.
-XC
"Kozinski interrupted to say that she should work out naked."
OMG!!! That's horrible. I can only imagine the sleepless nights and anxiety at ever trip to the gym after that. It's just flat out cruelty.
Suppose the Judge called a male clerk into his chambers to get his opinion on whether a video was pornographic. Not because of a particular pending case, but to improve the Judge's understanding of prevailing community standards. No one would think the Judge was guilty of harrassment, would they (OK, assuming Judge, clerk, and video are all straight)? Isn't that a reason for a judge to prefer male clerks to female clerks? It's like Pence not going out to dinner with female employees.
Alex Kozinski serves on the Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit. Seems he retaliated against all these women he "sexually harassed" by sending them on to clerk for Supreme Court Justices there by destroying their careers.
There is a young guy at the bar who often views porn on his phone while he has his drinks. He used to work in the kitchen; he doesn't work in the kitchen anymore, but he still comes to the bar, it is where his friends are. And he occasionally eats meals from the kitchen, which lets you know that, one, the kitchen must be relatively clean since he knows its secrets, and, two, he left the job amicably, because he trusts them with his food.
As I said, he sits at the bar and, a lot of the time, views porn on his phone. He is not masturbating while doing this, so it is kind of a gray area. Unless you are looking over his shoulder you wouldn't know what he is watching. But sometimes people get jammed shoulder-to-shoulder at the bar, and you kinda can't help looking over one's shoulder. Like I said: a gray area.
Maybe he gets his excitement from viewing porn in public. Who knows: maybe he thinks a college girl will accidentally see his screen and say "Hey! I like doing that: I want to do that with you." Not that it would happen, but maybe when you get jaded strange things seem more possible, so: optimistically jaded. And watching porn on your phone in the bar seems kind of jaded to me. Or maybe it is just another instance of the collapse of Society. Either / or.
Like I said, he doesn't masturbate there at the bar. But he does disappear to the bathroom a lot. Of course, when you are drinking beer you may tend to urinate a lot. In the bathroom. So maybe he is just urinating.
I really don't want to know otherwise.
And I hope he washes his hands.
- james james
I keep hearing about Renoir as proof that 'fat women were in' and I always question that. This is not to say that I don't think there were rich fat women back then (or of any social class) but simply that when I see the art of anyone BUT Renoir, the nudes, while heftier than today's super models, certainly lack the corpulent nature that Renoir plainly prefers.
To be blunt, Renoir was probably a Chubby Chaser, which is a fetish, not a societal indicator.
Of course, for many women who struggle with weight, he is their 'go to' guy to prove that 'I am just as attractive as a young thin girl.'. Alas...I don't think men have changed all that much in 200 years.
India, which has had major food issues for millennia, by that logic SHOULD love those fat women. But it do not have statues of Renoir like fat chicks. Their goddesses could grace the cover of any 1950 Playboy.
To wit, when I read 19th century literature, I don't recall any of them slavering over those extra chins, those elbow dimples, that really broad rear end. The paragons of beauty seemed to be (forgive my memory) little pale 20 year old girls with very clear skin. Frequently with consumption.
I am open to evidence to the contrary.
Some Judges are great actors who desire the limelight.It is like they feel they are in a competition with the strong male trial lawyers for the admiration of all the attractive women who come into the curtilage of the courthouse.
A woman will probably not factor that in when she is surprised at such judge's off the wall actions.
Kaczynski needs to go. The charge is using his power to refuse to grow up.
And now this bio of Jann Wenner. I blame the baby boomers, the sorriest generation.
"Since October, we've been in the pitchforks and guillotines French Revolution phase of the ‘60s sexual revolution, which Jann Wenner championed from the helm of Rolling Stone magazine just as much as Hugh Hefner did from the Playboy Mansion and which has now entered its pitchforks and guillotines French Revolution phase. To understand how we went from the unbridled hedonism of the rock stars of the ‘60s and ‘70s, and the celebrity disco denizens of Studio 54 in the late '70s, to Hollywood moguls and news titans receiving lawsuits and pink slips on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis, Wenner is the linchpin between Led Zeppelin and Harvey Weinstein. And Hagan, who has previously written celebrity and political profiles for New York magazine, the Wall Street Journal, and Wenner’s Rolling Stone itself, does a thorough job of documenting his myriad excesses."
https://pjmedia.com/eddriscoll/jann-wenner-sticky-fingers/
Hmm. Looks like a creepy thug who collects for the mob, ala Weinstein, needs to be exiled to the NetherHells.
Quirky, fun loving, judge...let's rethink this zero tolerance policy.
I think it is very striking that he is on the NINTH Circuit Court. The idea that suddenly the 'California Dreaming' Court (who mostly dreams of judicially ruling Trump and Republicans out of existence) may have a whole bunch of vacancies that Trump and the Republicans will be GLAD, GIDDY, frigging ORGASMIC to fill, is making some people...a tad nervous.
I mean a film director, sure. Losing a couple of JUDGES? Imagine if someone came forward about a female clerk being blatantly molested by Ginsberg?
In TWO SECONDS, women would no longer be believed, nuance would be in order, sex assault...well...let's not get CRAZY here! So Giddy Ginsburg gummed on a few earlobes in unwelcome fashion...who hasn't done that?
Losing Lefty Lecherous Luminaries suddenly limits anti licentious legislation.
Kozinski interrupted to say that she should work out naked.
Considering the outfits that some of the women wear to my local gym, they might as well be naked. But much as I'd enjoy the view -- or not, depending -- I'd hate to have to wipe off the seats on the stationary bikes and nautilus equipment if I was the first to use something after a naked person sat on it.
"I blame the baby boomers, the sorriest generation" There can be no honest Reckoning without a full accounting. But the sorriest generation isn't sorry for anything. What is the meaning of sorry, anyway? So there won't be an honest Reckoning, just moves in the culture/gender war.
Here's the definition of pornography --
LINK TEXT
"Losing Lefty Lecherous Legal Luminaries suddenly limits anti licentious legislation."
FIFY FIDO.
I don't care about Judge Kozinski -- who is an amusing fellow-- or the allegations against him, but I do care about the incredible waste of social resources that the education of "Courtney Milan," Berkeley advanced degree in Physical Chemisty, Michigan law grad, SCOTUS clerk, represents. And now romance writer. Don't the elite in our society feel any responsibility any longer to put their gifts and opportunities to work for the benefit of the polity, rather than just amusing themselves and making easy money? I think I know the answer to that question, regrettably.
Note they ate only targeting one of the few heretics on the 9th circus.
“Losing Lefty Lecherous Legal Luminaries suddenly limits anti licentious legislation."
Kozinski is a conservative, appointed by Ronald Reagan.
Re: Windsors - very naughtical ;-)
THE PURSUIT OF... by Courtney Milan
What do a Black American soldier, invalided out at Yorktown, and a British officer who deserted his post have in common? Quite a bit, actually.
* They attempted to kill each other the first time they met.
* They're liable to try again at some point in the five-hundred-mile journey that they're inexplicably sharing.
* They are not falling in love with each other.
* They are not falling in love with each other.
* They are.... Oh no.
"Don't the elite in our society feel any responsibility any longer to put their gifts and opportunities to work for the benefit of the polity, rather than just amusing themselves and making easy money?"
I think I'd rather have her using her talents as a romance writer than as a judge or law professor. Physical Chemistry? She obviously didn't like it. Who needs thirty years of research papers that need to be retracted?
I think freedom and free markets landed Courtney Milan right where she should be.
Wait wait...are you telling me it's possible he was asking a clerk's opinion about whether a picture *rose to a level of se-ual arousal* to constitute porn? Or some other standard re porn for what constitutes a violation of laws re e.g. distribution?
It is hard to be impressed with any CV when there are men, and some women too but mostly men, who can, all alone mind you, change the oil in a 2001 Ford Explorer. One man just right here on Althouse wrote he was able to accomplish that very feat.
By himself.
@PJ: "Don't the elite in our society feel any responsibility any longer to put their gifts and opportunities to work for the benefit of the polity" Inching dangerously close to the unforgivable sin of sexism, if you are implying that investing in women's education actually benefits society less.
Anyway, the answer is no, they don't feel any responsibility, except to pursue their own causes for their own benefit. Some exceptions excepted--the Tom Cottons.
And it's not such a bad thing: most of the "elite" wants to transform and destroy the polity rather than tend and preserve it.
Milan / Bond has a much more detailed response on her own pages:
http://www.courtneymilan.com/metoo/kozinski.html
The judge asked a female clerk to look at pictures of naked college students (and other pictures), stored on his own personal server, that had nothing to do with any case before the court, having declared (and reinforced) that the clerk in question was his personal slave. I really don't see how this is not completely and wildly inappropriate conduct.
But sure Ann, you liked him, so therefore he could never have behaved this way. Way to be part of the solution!
Imagine if a former student of yours, maybe one that you had recommended to a clerk position, had such a story. You think they'd ever tell it to you now?
To hell with Renoir.
All hail Peter Paul Rubens and his second wife, Helene Fourment, notoriously and gloriously portrayed trying to keep a fur wrap around her ample curves.
https://arthistoryproject.com/artists/peter-paul-rubens/helene-fourment-in-a-fur-robe/
If only Kozinski were an art connoisseur! He could plaster his chambers with Rubens reproductions and happily judge away with Courtney Milan none the wiser to his private interests.
I think the working out naked idea is kinda cool. It takes one back to ancient Greece, but now with women, like the female athletes that used to engage in bull-leaping in Minoan Crete.
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/media/bull-leaping/
When the Chicago men's clubs became co-ed in the eighties, one of the arguments against was that members could no longer swim naked in the pool at lunch. In the modern trinity of Convenience, Envy, and Power, Envy trumped Convenience, and the clubs went co-ed. Later, a city ordinance cleaned up any holdouts.
I can see how the idea that one might prefer exercising naked, if one knew nobody else would be in the gym might pop into the head & out of the mouth of an inveterate smart-ass without much of a filter around staff; but as a practical idea it cannot withstand even the barest scrutiny.
Why did no one who witnessed any of these alleged events pick a moment when they were alone with Judge Kozinski to say "You know, boss, that was not your choicest bon mot. Maybe you should think twice before saying something like that again, because it could be taken the wrong way."
If you were on friendly relations with your boss, that would seem like the thing to do. But even though 9th CIrcuit Externs and Clerks have all graduated college and gone to law school, and could claim to be formidable individuals in their own right, none apparently had the huevos to do that.
@Amadeus 48
I've always thought that Rubens' nudes of Helene are the 16th century equivalent of a modern couple's sex tape.
Steyn has a tongue-in-cheek take on what the 60's Fems and current sexual harrassment meme has wrought.
Allison: "Wait wait...are you telling me it's possible he was asking a clerk's opinion about whether a picture *rose to a level of se-ual arousal* to constitute porn? Or some other standard re porn for what constitutes a violation of laws re e.g. distribution?"
Well, that's a perfect "cover" now, isn't it?
Judges, senators, movie stars, congressmen... are they *all* creeps?
"It turns out that all those feminists who wanted you to know they controlled their own bodies also wanted to control other women's bodies."
Yeah, ask August Ames how devoted the SJW left is to the principle of "my body, my choice."
"Make sexual innuendoes" is substandard English. He'd drop them.
Narayanan Subramanian said...
Working with judges ... Don't people wonder what is under the robe?
--
Well..years ago there was the judge working a penis pump.
Posting the Renoir is a bit of a distraction from the claim..the claim clearly about weird and offensive behavior that the rest of us (assuming above 14yrs old) would never engage in at work.
This seems to be her:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ermurphy
Apparently it happened five years ago
Well that would the interval involved.
Now would she have any motives to impugn kosinski
http://uchastings.edu/faculty/murphy
walter--You are right--that is the claim. If true, I don't think you could get away with that behavior at any big law firm in America. Kozinski's negotiating the 2008 complaint should have clipped his wings. I note that Courtney Milan complained about activity in 2006 and 2007, before the 2008 complaint. As to subsequent behavior, it sounds more awkward than intimidating, which is why I made the comment about the Greeks, the Cretean athletes, and the Chicago men's clubs.
At some point, we need to expect that people will act like adults (see hombre's comment at 11:01) rather than children. But what we are getting is pre-adolescent behavior on both sides of this.
#FrankenStay2018.
Right it has nothing to do with the fact, that kosinski fed the immigration pause correctly, crinethink will not be tolerated.
I think any short synopsis of this story would indeed sound like over sensitivity,yet when you read the article, which goes on and on and makes clear that this particular man has a clear predilection for sexually humiliating subordinate female colleagues, our culture needs to change.
It is one thing for a teenage boy in a classroom to flick a girls bra strap and make crude comments about black dick, it is quick another or a symptom of the fact that this disrespect goes all the way to the top, women should not have to deal the life long psychological burden of fending of harassment that them out of public life and office.
women should not have to deal the life long psychological burden of fending of[f] harassment that [keeps] them out of public life and office.
Women have lifelong psychological burdens from being women. No sense of humor, for example.
Does public life office need more wimps and that's-hot-funny types or not. That's the question for whether it's a public problem or a private matter.
Pick working or not, if you're a woman. You don't get to pick what men are. Though you get to pick men. Individual again.
I am struck by someone achieving a Supreme Court clerkship and then becoming an author of romance novels. That is quite a career shift.
I personally happen to know two of them, very well known, whose names you'd recognize from the racks at the grocery store even if you're not an aficionado of the genre (I'm not). If you can make it in the biz, it's an easy, lucrative, flexible gig, none of which I imagine describe law clerking.
One of the romance novelists with whom I'm acquainted churns out a new title or two a year; she could do it in her sleep and has made many millions doing so. When her kids were young she started writing during naptime and after they went to bed at night.
Amanda--I don't think you can fairly say that women are kept out of public office and public life in 2017. And we are better off for their participation.
I practiced law at big firms for 40 years, and my female colleagues were excellent lawyers and wonderful people. Our clients were lucky to have them working on their projects.
#FrankenStay2018
At some point, we need to expect that people will act like adults (see hombre's comment at 11:01) rather than children. But what we are getting is pre-adolescent behavior on both sides of this.
Reminds me of the absolute jackass festival that was 'donglegate.' Men were fired over silly jokes, because a woman was too much of a baby to turn around and talk to them and ask them to tone it down, but rather went crying to Daddy.
"The judge asked a female clerk to look at pictures of naked college students (and other pictures), stored on his own personal server, that had nothing to do with any case before the court, having declared (and reinforced) that the clerk in question was his personal slave. I really don't see how this is not completely and wildly inappropriate conduct."
I read her account. You don't think she kind of over-reacted? I agree that it is inappropriate, but not wildly. I can think of lots of people, of both sexes, who would not have been bothered at all. He never touched her, he never propositioned her. It sounds to me like Courtney Milan has issues. Of course, part of the reason such conduct is inappropriate is that there are lots of people who have issues.
i'm glad the amazon side bar is back!
I have important Glori-Anne Gilbert videos that I've been waiting to order!
"So I stayed. There were no physical advances—just occasional porn, occasionally asking about my opinion on it, occasionally asking whether it turned me on. There were no physical advances, just endless worrying on my part about whether there would be one, and if there was, if I would be able to say no."
Issues.
*none of which I imagine describes
sorry; sometimes I get in a hurry
She could have said no.
But sometimes the aggressor doesn't take no for an answer (Cf Bill Clinton/ Juanita Broddrick).
But that's an imaginary case with Judge Kozinski, which perhaps prepared her for a career in romantic fiction (Cf. "her voice said no, but her eyes said yes" meme). I'm sure she never writes scenes like that, and her heroines never like to be pursued by attractive but misunderstood men.
And people hate stuff like that, which is why 50 Shades of Gray was a complete failure at every level, includingthe book, the movie and the sequels.
#FrankenStay2018
I forgot.
Now an interesting entree into the romance is former Argentina journalist florencia bonelli, the fury series, like an international version of 50 shades, a Saudi prince modeled somewhat on prince talal and an Argentina doctor.
Amanda said... this particular man has a clear predilection for sexually humiliating subordinate female colleagues, our culture needs to change.
--
Here's where it strays into overreach.
I mean..this judge knows this behavior is whack.
My first job was a summer gig detassling corn with a group of uncouth under 16 yr olds riding a bus to the farms every day.
There..I coudl imagine a kid pulling the flip book out of his backpack.
My next job was at McDonalds..where I was pulled aside and reprimanded by the female manager for not smiling while bagging fries.
This judge was at some weird disconnect from culture...not a barometer of it.
(btw, posting here is still fucked up)
I'm really tempted to buy one of her books just to find out whether it features graphic sex scenes, as so many romance authors do. (Or so I've been told.)
an imaginary case with Judge Kozinski, which perhaps prepared her for a career in romantic fiction
When you put it that way, it may be thought that she was inspired.
This would be so much easier to process with open lines of communication.
I'm really tempted to buy one of her books just to find out whether it features graphic sex scenes, as so many romance authors do. (Or so I've been told.)
The "Outlander" series has some pretty graphic sex in the early volumes. I referred to it as "my dirty book" so my wife downloaded it to her Kindle too.
The later volumes have less. The "Clan of the Cave Bear series also had lots of graphic sex.
This is weak sauce. The idea that these ladies could make it into adulthood and through law school without ever having encountered pornography or hearing tell of nakedness is dubious in the extreme, but being "devastated" by such commonplace trivialities.. it did not happen. It's made up. Shark: jumped.
@Michael K, not to mention the "Fifty Shades of Grey" trilogy.
"I'm impressed by her background and her career choices, including the earlier sloughing off the lawprof persona and recreating herself as a freely expressive writer."
Not me. I strongly suspect that during her Supreme Court clerkship, she screwed the pooch in some spectacular way. She tried to hide in academia, and when that didn't work, she had to give up the law altogether.
To graduate Michigan Law summa cum laude requires a GPA of >4.1, i.e., no Bs and at least a few A+s, so she was no slouch.
A gpa greater than 4.1 may explain her lack of social skills.
Well, Inga, the fact that he is, according to you, a Conservative helps explain how you transitioned from a sexual harassment apologist to one who, once again, SUDDENLY takes sexual harassment seriously once again.
Here is the big rub: these women are not afraid of sex. They have pretty much to a woman HAD sex.
They are afraid of social confrontation. And not the easy kind where one can tell off a cabbie and never see them again.
No no. They have to create a reputational marker which is negative. And women don't like doing that.
All this woman needed to do was tell her boss she didn't want to see that nonsense anymore. "Go ask Jimmy about what is and is not porn. He is the expert."
Funny, direct, and moves the ball into his court...but FAR TOO difficult to actually say to one's boss because...feelz!
I didn't know if I could say no.
Madam, if you can't say 'no' as a lawyer because you are afraid of consequences, you should drop the profession and go onto something which requires less character and fortitude like writing roman...um...oh!
Madam, you have found your niche.
"I know he brought you into his office to show you porn, I know he made sexual innuendos to you. I know this because you told me so in DC..."
Maybe she's not in law anymore because she doesn't know what hearsay is. All she KNOWS is that Yenta Heidi told her this. I wonder what else Heidi told her?
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