November 20, 2017

"One wonders if the boy did not know what would happen. I do not know about you, but in my youth I have never been in situations like this."

"Never. I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to. That’s why it does not sound very credible to me. It seems to me that Spacey has been attacked unnecessarily.... People know exactly what's going on [about Weinstein]... And they play along. Afterwards, they feel embarrassed or disliked. And then they turn it around and say: 'I was attacked, I was surprised'. But if everything went well, and if it had given them a great career, they would not talk about it. I hate rape. I hate attacks. I hate sexual situations that are forced on someone. But in many cases one looks at the circumstances and thinks that the person who is considered a victim is merely disappointed."

Said Morrissey.

ADDED: These remarks made me wonder how smart Morrissey is. My guess was that he's very smart, and he likes to look at things from different points of view and talk about what he sees, and that can get you into trouble, at least if your smartness doesn't lead you to see what you're going to get if you waft miscellaneous ideas where people expect you to say only one thing and you decide to protect yourself by keeping quiet.

I read the "Early life" section of Morrissey's Wikipedia page, and see that his parents were "working-class Irish Catholics," and he "failed his 11-plus exam" after elementary school "and proceeded to St. Mary's Technical Modern School, an experience that he found unpleasant." He was good at sports but still "an unpopular loner." He said his education was "evil and brutal," and "All I learnt was to have no self-esteem and to feel ashamed without knowing why." He did read a lot, we're told, including feminist literature and Oscar Wilde. And he turned to music — very successfully — as the solution.

Even here, music was a solution. Morrissey could have saved these ideas for song lyrics, which can be enigmatic, ambiguous, and seeming to arise from a character the singer embodies.

35 comments:

rhhardin said...

There's been no actual public debate about rule by women's feelings, just the announcement that the debate is already over.

Derivatively about loser men's feelings.

It's nice that somebody points out just one problem with it, but the debate is over.

MikeR said...

Sounds like he isn't aware of the concept of statutory rape. I don't care what the 14-year-old was thinking.

rhhardin said...

Everything should be ruled by women's feelings, women's feelings say.

MikeR said...

"if it had given them a great career, they would not talk about it." Perhaps true; I have complained about this throughout - in terms of the believability of the actual stories.
I don't care. It is not acceptable for powerful people to use their status as gatekeepers to "a great career" to extract sexual favors. That the victim him- or herself is willing to go along with it doesn't make it acceptable, not in the least. Rape isn't wrong only because of the physical force used.

rhhardin said...

Mr. Right (2015) Murder is wrong.

Ann Althouse said...

""if it had given them a great career, they would not talk about it." Perhaps true; I have complained about this throughout - in terms of the believability of the actual stories. I don't care. It is not acceptable for powerful people to use their status as gatekeepers to "a great career" to extract sexual favors. That the victim him- or herself is willing to go along with it doesn't make it acceptable...."

And even if you get some career advantages, you can still hold your grievances in reserve and use them after the advantages dry up. Marriages and other ongoing relationships can be like that. When things are working out, you try to get along, because you like what you are getting, but then if it breaks up, terrible complaints may become public.

Rae said...

I don't understand why people give celebrities more leeway to be evil than people in their everyday lives. It's a type of modern insanity.

Virgil Hilts said...

Big fan of Morrissey and hope he doesn't get slammed too much for this. One thing that Morrissey used to do (still does?) is allow fans to jump on the stage and try to hug him (a lot of them probably groped him as well); he embraced it despite the danger and the invasion. Its unique; lots of cool videos showing him doing this.
Also, per Pamela Des Barres Plus, the normal rules/customs relating to sex simply don't apply to world of rock & roll and groupies. That's why David Bowie and Jimmie Page having slept with the same 14 year old (not at same time) did not destroy them.

Psota said...

Morrissey IS very smart.

He IS very well read.

His lyrics show a keen awareness of the ambiguities and power struggles in sexual relationships.

Plus his angriest songs have been about sexually abusive authority figures.

I don't know if his comments are "right" but they certainly are a reflection of his life's work

Owen said...

It seems to me that the old saw is still true: "with power comes responsibility."

Even in Hollywood, or maybe especially in Hollywood, where all rules and guides invite smashing and people can fall into perdition without even seeing it coming.

My point is simply: the powerful are also vulnerable. They consist largely of reputation, and reputation can be destroyed in an instant from a distance by a no-name. It *invites and attracts* such assailants. Sometimes they are character assassins, sometimes they use real bullets.

Simultaneously with this enhanced status as a target, the powerful are exposed to more temptation, and less check or censure.

Result? Mike Pence was doing the minimum. Anybody with a reputation to lose should do the same and more.

Sorry if that puts a damper on the party.

Robert said...

Anyone who follows Morrissey's career knows that whenever he has a new album or tour to sell, he will say things to the press to wind people up and get attention. That's not to say he doesn't have good points much of the time. But you notice that he is always saying something he knows will provoke media when he wants to get some publicity. He has bragged that the media is very easy to wind in this way. There is a bit of a witch hunt going on with the whole #MeToo thing so it's an easy entrance way for someone with a new album who wants to get in the press.

wildswan said...

Morrisey is saying that Hollywood women who have "great careers" got the career by letting themselves be grabbed, groped, and raped. And the boys, too. So that's the reality when we see celebrities gathered - it's gropers and groped, grabbers and grabbed, rapers and raped.

They really should cancel the Academy Awards. It will seem surreal to see them all smiling and know the reality.

Henry said...

Morrissey thrives on unpopular opinion.

He is invested, artistically, in inhabiting the heads of sociopaths and outcasts.

I love his music and enjoy his bloody-mindedness. He also sounds like a huge prick, but he's not going to apologize for it.

In an official statement released to the Morrissey-sanctioned fansite True to You, he finally explained: "Unfortunately, I am not homosexual. In technical fact, I am humasexual. I am attracted to humans. But, of course... not many."

Fritz said...


They really should cancel the Academy Awards. It will seem surreal to see them all smiling and know the reality.

Rename them "the Gropers." It makes at least as much sense as "the Oscars."

Lucien said...

Althouse said:

I don't care. It is not acceptable for powerful people to use their status as gatekeepers to "a great career" to extract sexual favors. That the victim him- or herself is willing to go along with it doesn't make it acceptable...."

I agree, and to state things more generally, one ought to have a sense of when a potential sexual encounter is a "fair fight" -- or whether one of the people involved is somehow vulnerable to being taken advantage of.

In such situations I have found that the better course of action is to think: "A gentleman would not take advantage of this situation, and so neither shall I."

wwww said...

I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to. That’s why it does not sound very credible to me.


This is bullshit. 14 year old kids are not aware of many things. Many of them are clueless due to their youth. That is why they are easy targets for cowards who prey on the young and vulnerable.

Predators prey on weak or vulnerable people. They go after people who have some sort of vulnerability. Youth is a vulnerability because they are unaware, or trusting of authority figures, or not confident in making split-second decisions when they need to fight back.

tim maguire said...

One of the many problems with our current mob justice mentality is that many, perhaps most, of the complaints are BS. Just as in all "social justice" scenarios, there is cache in being a victim, so certain kinds of people will seek out opportunities to portray themselves as victims.

But "most" does not mean "all." The fact that at least one Moore accuser made it up (and I'd bet that most Moore accusers made it up), it only takes one to be telling the truth. Or 2, depending on what the "truth" is.

Spacey obviously took advantage of people, even if they were complicit in making themselves vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Blaming the victim does not absolve the perp.

wwww said...



In this public discussion people keep calling 14 year olds "women."

14 year old boys and girls are not Men & Women. They are just out of their tweens. I do not see a 14 year old boy as a man, or a 14 year old girl as a woman.

rhhardin said...

Conflation of crime with hurt feelings is the technique to get hurt feelings ruling.

Prosecute crime, ignore hurt feelings.

KittyM said...

@www "14 year old boys and girls are not Men & Women. They are just out of their tweens."

OMG Yes! You are so, so right. Anyone with a 14-year old at home knows that. I am horrified that so many of us have forgotten what it was like to be a young teenager: how bad we were at judging situations for safety, for example, and how trusting we were.

Roger Sweeny said...

14 year old boys and girls are not Men & Women. They are just out of their tweens.

One of the hardest things about teaching late middle school/early high school is that the students have 12-year-old brains in 16-year-old bodies.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Prosecute crime, ignore hurt feelings.


curious... what would I get in your state if I shot your dog?

Mike said...

This is bullshit. 14 year old kids are not aware of many things. Many of them are clueless due to their youth. That is why they are easy targets for cowards who prey on the young and vulnerable.

What type of a parent let's their 14 year old kid hang out with drunken adults?

pdug said...

in my mind this was a Morrisey son, but its actually Billy Bragg

I've had relations with girls from many nations
I've made passes at women of all classes
And just because you're gay I won't turn you away
If you stick around I'm sure that we can find some common ground

Sexuality
Strong and warm and wild and free
Sexuality
Your laws do not apply to me

A nuclear submarine sinks off the coast of Sweden
Headlines give me headaches when I read them
I had an uncle who once played for Red Star Belgrade
He said some things are really best left unspoken
But I prefer it all to be out in the open

Sexuality
Strong and warm and wild and free
Sexuality
Your laws do not apply to me
Sexuality
Don't threaten me with misery
Sexuality
I demand equality

I'm sure that everybody knows how much my body hates me
It lets me down most every time and makes me rash and hasty
I feel a total jerk before your naked body of work

I'm getting weighed down with all this information
Safe sex doesn't mean no sex it just means use your imagination
Stop playing with yourselves in hard currency hotels
I look like Robert De Niro, I drive a Mitsubishi Zero

Sexuality
Strong and warm and wild and free
Sexuality
Your laws do not apply to me
Sexuality
Come eat and drink and sleep with me
Sexuality
We can be what we want to be

pdug said...

@www "14 year old boys and girls are not Men & Women. They are just out of their tweens."

but we push literature on them called "Young Adult" and let them read about sex.

C R Krieger said...

It would have helped to know this was not Cap't Ed Morrissey.

Regards  —  Cliff

C R Krieger
Lowell, MA 01852

rhhardin said...

I was flying several hundred mile airplane trips with only map and compass at 16. Seems sort of adult-ish.

JAORE said...

As a young man of 16-17 years old I had the blissful opportunity of heavily groping with two or three pretty young women (separate occasions ya pervs). I was, and remain, strongly interested in sex with the opposite sex. Yet in a couple of cases the offer of intercourse was there and I deferred.

Even then, in full hormonal rage, I knew that I was on the edge of a pleasurable experience. I also knew the girl was on the edge of a life changing experience. Sigh.

I blame mom.

Lots of guys could have used a mother like mine.

Christy said...

Fourteen-year-olds are still accustomed to hanging out with their pals in the bedroom. TV's, game systems, no lame parents overhearing every word.... At that age (sans family alcohol problems) they still think drunk is funny. I find the boy's naivety believable.

walter said...

You have to wonder about the judgement of Rapp's parents, letting their 14 y/o hang at "adult" parties...not exactly a Bible study crowd either.

Howard said...

Bad Lieutenant brings up an interesting point. I don't know about you folks in flyover country, but out here on the left coast, aminal cruelty is a more serious offense (as judged by letters to the editor and bail amounts) than assault, kidnapping, arson, etc.

Do any of you Morrissey fans have a recommendation. I've tried listening to his greatest hits, meh. It sounds like his rhythm section consists of the synthetic drums and bass from an electronic keyboard... kinda like U2. Maybe it's an Irish defect, I don't know. Van Morrison doesn't suffer from the same shallow gimmicky musicology as his younger potato-head brethren.

As per Morrissey's views on Frakenstien und Spacey, they are at the same time valid and disgusting. The particle-wave duality has many faces.

wwww said...

I was flying several hundred mile airplane trips with only map and compass at 16. Seems sort of adult-ish.


Yeah, one of my friends took flying lessons at 16. That's great. But he could not yet legally sign a contract, and there's a reason for that. It would not be ethical for someone twice his age to start a sexual relationship with him.

What is up with this rush to make young teenagers eligible for adults twice their age? It's one thing for a 19 year old to be having a relationship with a 17 year old. They may have met in high school, and they are figuring things out together. That teen deserves to be given the space to be a teenager and figure things out with other teens. Or wait until they are older. We protect teenagers because they are minors. We give them space to be free from adult attentions or responsibilities.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that sexual contact has emotional and physical repercussions. Sexual relationships can cause emotional damage. Sex can also cause STDs or pregnancy. AIDS is a risk. Pregnancy is a risk. An adult has the moral responsibility of protecting minors, not imposing these responsibilities onto children. A 30 year old and a 16 year old is entirely different from two sixteen year olds necking for the first time in a car.

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Night Owl said...

A dismissive "you must or should have known better" attitude toward the young is cynically convenient for those who want to prey on the innocent. While there may be worldly and mature 14 yr olds, it's the naïve and innocent ones that need our protection.

Andrew Shimmin said...

Camille Paglia on Charlie Rose's show, 22 years ago, advocating for lowering the age of consent to 14 (and later suggesting that someone who accepts an invitation to a man's bedroom should be presumed to have accepted an invitation to his bed); this portion begins at 7:50: https://charlierose.com/videos/6504

Rose asks, "What should happen to an employer who is fondling one of his employees?" at 14:50.