I knew the name James Toback, but I couldn't name a single one of his movies, after I read out loud the Daily Mail headline "More than 30 women accuse Hollywood director James Toback of sexual assault in disturbing accounts of him 'coercing them to his hotel rooms, dry-humping their legs, and masturbating in front of them'" and Meade said "Who's he?"
Maybe I'd just always remembered his name because back in the 1970s, I knew somebody else with that unusual last name. I'd thought Toback was kind of important, so I was surprised that he'd only directed 12 films (in a 40-year period). I looked for the most famous one to impress Meade that this was indeed a well-known director. I came up with "The Pick-Up Artist" and showed Meade the image and said, "That was back when Robert Downey Jr. look like this. 1987."
According to a report by the Los Angeles Times, on several occasions Toback would invite women, usually in their 20s, to his hotel room where he would dry-hump them or masturbate in front of them, ejaculating into his pants or onto their bodies and then walk away.Why are you "broken" and "violated" if you walk away from bad pick-up lines like that? This kind of post-Weinstein pile-on is going to dilute the righteous fury and end up boring us. There are so many people with so many stories, so many would-be actresses who never got to live out their dreams that nothing's going to stop the chatter. It's a good time to hurt and embarrass every unattractive guy who got a pretty woman to give him some time by portraying himself as a useful contact.
Starr Rinaldi, who was an aspiring actress, told the Times that she was approached by Toback 15 years ago in Central Park. 'He always wanted me to read for him in a hotel or come back to his apartment, like, "How serious are you about your craft?" And the horrible thing is, whichever road you choose, whether you sleep with him or walk away, you're still broken... You have been violated."
How could he even think he could have her if he didn't give some major career advancement in exchange!
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115 comments:
If someone 'dry-humped' my leg I would instinctively kick them in the groin. What's wrong with these women???
If he touched Molly ......
I should have written kicked him in the groin but didn't want to sound sexist.
You can stay at the Four Seasons; you can stay at Motel Six. James Toback is the latter.
Robert Downy doesn't need techniques to pick up women, a simple "wanna fuck" would probably work at least half the time for him. In Wedding Crashers, the PUA was Will Ferrel, that was more believable.
Leftwing Hollywood seems to attract some real weird men.
Iirc, even by Hollywood standards he was considered fucked up. Some years back, he wrote an article for Esquire. He detailed how he shared a hotel room with Jim Brown, the football player. They both got lucky and were fuckng in the same room. Toback said that the experience was a turn on and validated his masculinity. WTF. Who brags about being despicable?.........Is Hollywood the land of dystopian sexual mores? In some ways, they're worse than Saudi Arabia.
I know him from the Tyson documentary. He also must have had a think for Downey. He acted in 3 of his films in a relatively short period of time.
This guy looks like an aging Portnoy. I could see him in the 'liver' scene and also some of the others, like the glass table [it's been many years since I read it but those are fragments I recall]. All of these Hollywood guys look like--and are--creeps. If I didn't know some nice Jewish guys I'd be developing a profile...:-(
This kind of post-Weinstein pile-on is going to dilute the righteous fury and end up boring us. There are so many people with so many stories, so many would-be actresses who never got to live out their dreams that nothing's going to stop the chatter.
Yeah, know what else dilutes the concern? The changing definitions of rape and sexual assault. If massaging shoulders is lumped in with titty honking, thinks get confusing.
If regret over sexual encounter last week is classified as rape along with actual forced penetration tends to dilute the violent rape. These assaults all need to be defined, just like this story 'dry humping" etc.
A step up or down from potted plants?
Growing up in central Ohio, I played a lot of pinball. Hey, my parents bowled, what else was i going to do?
It struck me recently that a day at Althouse is like a pinball game. The ball gets loaded in the morning and she whacks it into one bumper after another, one post after another.
Some games can look entirely random, but most days you can see her shoot to one bumper to send the ball up a slot and into a jackpot hole that shoots it out to another bumper and into another jackpot.
The bells ding and the lights flash and the commentariat cheers.
This place she has here is so much fun!
Again, I say - I admire the persistence of the men of Hollywood. EVERY single actress or singer who has gotten there has received an unwelcome proposition. Yet NONE of them have ever given in. But still the men keep trying. And the virtue of the women is unassailable! The people of Hollywood remain paragons of virtue.
This place she has here is so much fun!
Yes, it is, Annie! We are blessed.
I think his most significant credit was as a writer for the Warren Beatty (another infamous Hollywood lothario) film Bugsy. Actually, in light of this information, Toback's filmography is now teeming with double entendre: Fingers (1978), Exposed (1983), The Big Bang (1989), Two Girls and a Guy (1997), When Will I Be Loved (2004), Seduced and Abandoned (2013), The Private Life of a Modern Woman (2017), Exposed (1983), and Mississippi Grind (2015).
The name was familiar, but I had to look up where I originally heard it in the past- it was that he wrote Bugsy, one with Warren Beatty and Annette Bening, and had a small role in, too. I also learned he was the guy who wrote The Gambler, a movie from the mid-70s with James Caan that I remember as well.
None of this is any different from what Bill Clinton did?
So what? Joy Behar, Barbara Walters, and Meryl Streep don't care at all.
Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
None of this is any different from what Bill Clinton did?
So what? Joy Behar, Barbara Walters, and Meryl Streep don't care at all.
I agree with the observation about Bill Clinton, and I've heard referenced numerous times, but I am not sure what is it supposed to mean? That people are often self-interested hypocrites? This is news?
Bill Clinton would have been ridiculed and relegated to the dust bin and laughed off the stage years ago, if truth ever mattered. ..If journalists were not self-loathing power at at any price leftwing democrat hacks.
"I did not have sex with the women." - Bill
"I was hacked" - Weiner
"It's all a vast right wing conspiracy" - Hillary
"I swear I never humped her leg" - Hillarywood
If Bill were forced out back when it mattered, we might be sparred Hillary and her never ending persistence. But no. Because leftwing-D protection.
Meet the Press asked each of the 21 women senators to share their #MeToo stories. Four senators —all Democrats—agreed to share their #MeToo stories on Meet the Press. Liz Warren was chased around a desk! A young Claire McCaskill was told by the Speaker of the Missouri House of Representatives to bring knee pads if she wanted to get her bill out of committee....and so on.
Yes this is getting redundantly boring.
Liz Warren was chased around a desk!
By the chief of her tribe, no doubt.
Meet the Press didn't include a single Bill Clinton accuser? wow - what a shock.
I keep suggesting that anyone who wants to know what Hollywood is like read, "You'll Never Eat Lunch in This Town Again."
It was published in 1991 and describes Hollywood in the 70s.
None of this is new.
"Why are you "broken" and "violated" if you walk away from bad pick-up lines like that?" Good question. Answer: because it is useful to whine after the fact. Even assuming Harvey committed some actual crimes, most "violations" of the sort described here are entirely strategic stories.
"This kind of post-Weinstein pile-on is going to dilute the righteous fury and end up boring us." Progs don't care if you are amused, as long as they get to impose their orthodoxy. Which is: men bad, women good, therefore women must be in charge.
"There are so many people with so many stories, so many would-be actresses who never got to live out their dreams that nothing's going to stop the chatter." Correct. But let's then be done with the pretense that women are equal, that women have agency, that women are just as strong and creative as men. It's one or the other: chatter on about how you are always weak and wronged or claim real equality and act like it. I wish the world were more Althousian, but it isn't.
"It's a good time to hurt and embarrass every unattractive guy who got a pretty woman to give him some time by portraying himself as a useful contact." The prog move is to escalate: from now on, it's a good time to hurt any guy, because.
The way to make the whining less boring is for some women to claim agency by coming out and saying: yeah, I did it, I gave so-and-so a BJ, I f**ed such-and-such, nothin' to it, did it out of my own volition, suckered the bastard into giving me a better role and more money, art of the deal, baby.
I predict no such rhhardinesque admissions will be forthcoming. His etic theory fails as an emic account.
Well it looks as if Ann's guise of "boring" is not fooling anyone. The two footstools of her raison de etre ,feminism and liberalism, have been exposed. Well there is always meritocracy.
I once witnessed a co-worker offer another co-worker a blowjob if he would cover her shift at a fast food joint, actually, she said her friend would blow him, less awkward in the future, I guess. Still, it never would have occurred to him to demand a blowjob. That's where this all gets weird.
"Why are you "broken" and "violated" if you walk away from bad pick-up lines like that?" Good question. [My] Answer:
Because they didn't walk away. They stood there and let the guy jack-off on them or they sucked his dick. They did whatever they wanted to do to get the shot at being rich and famous. They thought if they did this they had a leg up (over their ears) over their competition.
These women are not victims. They are co-conspirators.
Sebastian said:
But let's then be done with the pretense that women are equal, that women have agency, that women are just as strong and creative as men. It's one or the other: chatter on about how you are always weak and wronged or claim real equality and act like it. I wish the world were more Althousian, but it isn't.
Women more Althousian exist but their stories do not serve the progressive agenda.
Martha said...
Meet the Press asked each of the 21 women senators to share their #MeToo stories. Four senators —all Democrats—agreed to share their #MeToo stories on Meet the Press. Liz Warren was chased around a desk! A young Claire McCaskill was told by the Speaker of the Missouri House of Representatives to bring knee pads if she wanted to get her bill out of committee....and so on.
Yes this is getting redundantly boring."
What would have been rather interesting would have been if all of these woman were asked the followup questions of did they vote for Bill Clinton and did they vote for Bill's enabler Hillary "Standby Your Man" Clinton?
SayAahh said...A step up or down from potted plants?
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Sounds like in some instances, he found a way to accommodate the "Keep it in your pants!" directive:
Pants sex
Sex with your pants on. Male front to female booty
" I don't got me a condom! I'll just have to pants sex her then."
#sex#booty#condom#male#female
by pantssexy September 17, 2011
But not sure his behavior would be any better if he looked different from the picture Ann highlighted.
Or would it?
It's weird, because everyone knows that actresses get their big breaks by hanging out in public spaces, being approached by strange men, following them back to their hotel rooms, reading a few lines, and then getting the role.
Trading sexual favors for personal gain is as old as history. It's called 'prostitution'.
I thought some of Toback's best work was the character "Mel" on TV's Alice.
It must have been hell for each of those three struggling waitresses.
Even when Flo and Alice gave him sass they must have all felt violated.
Bill O'Reilly says after 21st Century Fox fired founding CEO Roger Ailes following harassment charges, he was one of scores of male employees at Fox News Channel who were accused of harassment.
A spokesman for O'Reilly released the statement Saturday in response to 21st Century Fox acknowledging that it knew a news analyst had threatened to file a sexual harassment lawsuit against him when it renewed his contract in February. The New York Times reported Saturday the company renewed the contract after O'Reilly reached a $32 million settlement.
O'Reilly says 21st Century Fox paid out close to $100 million dollars to settle all the cases brought by dozens of women.
LOL, the worms are falling out of the can, but the Bill Clinton worm will stay put!
"How could he even think he could have her if he didn't give some major career advancement in exchange!"
That is the other side of this coin. Women have sex with men for two reasons;
1 - They think they will enjoy it.
2 - Every other reason you can possibly imagine.
So, if a guy hasn't got #1 going for him ....
I wonder whom Lady Gaga had to blow to get in that picture with five presidents? Oh, come on, we all know the answer!
@mockturtle:
Trading sexual favors for personal gain is as old as history. It's called 'prostitution'.
Is that not also the cornerstone of marriage? Hell, in todays' culture, if a man wants marriage, he has to go buy the woman a very expensive piece of jewelry, and competition for carats is rampant among many young women. Wives withholding sex to punish or cajole their husband's behavior has also has a long literary history. See Lysistrata.
Trading sexual favors for personal gain is as old as history. It's called 'prostitution'.
They were just biding their time under a layer of privacy until the old practices were normalized. So far, there seems to be a consensus that it should not be normalized (there is no redeeming value to society or humanity), it probably should not be tolerated (the risk of debasing human life and degrading the quality of the environment is too great), and it should likely be rejected. Friendship with benefits (e.g. polygamy) is the 50 shades of gray that seems to give people pause but there aparently isn't an incentive to construct a political congruence ("="). Not yet, anyway.
"actually, she said her friend would blow him"
No greater love...
If I didn't know some nice Jewish guys I'd be developing a profile...
Careful. You just called attention to the elephant in the room.
@n.n.
So far, there seems to be a consensus that it should not be normalized (there is no redeeming value to society or humanity), it probably should not be tolerated (the risk of debasing human life and degrading the quality of the environment is too great), and it should likely be rejected.
I am assuming that "it" is prostitution. It is an issue I have dealt with up close, to a degree. I have worked with NGOs in Thailand, Laos, and Burma who did work in the prostitution/human trafficking front. There is a libertarian strain to me that finds it hard to justify law (i.e. state violence) against consensual adult behavior. But then again, making it against the law does send a moral message within a society. Even if, in fact, the law is all but unenforceable. They are mainly used against street walkers who are nice times out of ten addicted to drugs and/or being pimped. They are actually a small fraction of prostitution. Most prostitution guys on pretty much out in the open under the guise of "escort services" or "massage" establishments. An occasional raid or two may happen, but these businesses are largely tolerated by law enforcement. The Internet and social media has only streamlined the process. And then again, it's an old joke that in Bangkok prostitution is illegal and in Singapore it is legal. And lost in most of this discussion is the fact that women who prostitute themselves, by and large, are usually disturbed and have histories of pretty awful trauma in childhood. There is no prostitute I have ever heard of who said that that was what they wanted to be when they grew up. It all reminds me of just how thin a veneer civilization is on top of our mostly primitive brains.
Hiya sweetheart. Room 14, at the Super 8 off Junction and 14th.
Right next to the Ice Machine. Continental Breakfast.
Who's more at fault the prostitutes or the johns? I don't know.
I agree mockturtle. It's the women and girls fault. They come on to those disgusting pieces of shit, then let them get off so they can get hired for a job. They should all be required to do a slut-walk of shame and apologize to the men they aroused and victimized.
When Will I be Loved, 2004, written and directed by James Toback, from Wiki:
The movie begins with a five-minute treatment of a nude Neve Campbell masturbating with a shower nozzle, setting the tone for the movie.
Still waiting for Ann to disavow Bill 32 million o" Reilly.
J. Farmer asserts: Is that not also the cornerstone of marriage? Hell, in todays' culture, if a man wants marriage, he has to go buy the woman a very expensive piece of jewelry, and competition for carats is rampant among many young women. Wives withholding sex to punish or cajole their husband's behavior has also has a long literary history. See Lysistrata.
Although a fan of Aristophanes, I cannot relate personally to the allegations you make about marriage. Though there may be women who withhold sex as a punishment, they are not the kinds of women with whom I am familiar. My husband and I, though we were pretty well off when we married, chose to buy our wedding bands at a pawn shop in downtown Seattle. These rings are still very special to me. Men who complain of the venality of women seem to choose women who confirm their darkest suspicions.
tim in vermont said... actually, she said her friend would blow him, less awkward in the future, I guess.
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Blind date.
In and Out? Hardees?
Who are you to say he's unattractive? Also, what does attractive mean? Lots of people are attracted to people who can provide them with resources, stability or opportunities.
@mockturtle:
I cannot relate personally to the allegations you make about marriage.
None of the things that I said about marriage was meant to be taken personally or to imply anything about your marriage, of which I know nothing. If it came across that way, it was unintended. I was talking about what is a cultural norm in today's society. And, in fact, there is an enormous proposal/engagement/wedding industry predicated on that fact. Young people put themselves deep into debt to buy expensive rings and throw lavish multi-day parties. The average cost of a wedding last year was over $30k. I know numerous couples, including my own siblings, who have spent significantly more than that on their weddings. Men who are highly educated and with high earning potential have status as potential partners. Look at the premium that is placed in the sperm donation business for men who attend the Ivy League or who make more than six figures. I do not consider this venality. But a man who can provide material support is a gigantic benefit to a woman and her children.
What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women? It's very odd.
J. Farmer:
Prostitution in its many shades will be tolerated as a practical matter. So, the question for society is whether it should be normalized or rejected. The consensus is to reject normalization, and remains to promote committed, coupled relationships. With time, it has been observed that rejection is an unsustainable solution to a wicked problem. So, we have the casting couch, the friendship with benefits, and Planned Parenthood, to avoid addressing causes and hopefully to marginalize their consequences.
Blogger Freeman Hunt said...
What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women? It's very odd.
"You seem like a nice person."
"Look at the premium that is placed in the sperm donation business for men who attend the Ivy League or who make more than six figures."
Do tell.
That must be a weird shopping experience...and pricing process.
Men who complain of the venality of women seem to choose women who confirm their darkest suspicions.
An ego-masochistic fetish, which may hide an ego-sadistic streak. This isn't so different from what Cassie Jaye in the "Red Pill" described of her "feminist" personality preceding the epiphany that led to her moral conversion.
Still waiting for Ann to disavow Bill 32 million o" Reilly.
Why should she disavow him? She never endorsed him.
None of the things that I said about marriage was meant to be taken personally or to imply anything about your marriage, of which I know nothing.
Since you know nothing about marriage, you should stop talking about it.
Trading sexual favors for personal gain is as old as history. It's called 'prostitution'.
Is that not also the cornerstone of marriage?
I think it might have been before the pill and abortion were so available.
I don't think that is true anymore. Children and family and companionship are more important now.
Sex is easy to find if you are young and not hideous.
Ann had posted a photo of Tab Hunter yesterday. My personal theory about the AIDS crisis and gay marriage is that it was a desperate attempt to stop the promiscuity which was such a big part of gay life at the time. I lost two good friends at the time.
The biography ofTab Hunter pointed out that he was in a stable 30 year relationship and that, I'm sure , saved him from AIDS,
One of the saddest experiences of my career was having to tell a nuclear engineer from San Onofre power plant in San Clemente that he had AIDS. He said "That can't be. I've been in a committed relationship for ten years !"
What could I say ?
J. Farmer argues: I was talking about what is a cultural norm in today's society.
Yes, too much is spent on jewelry and weddings, neither of which portend any longevity. A good friend of mine in my youth had a huge expensive wedding and they split up within two months. It's not always the woman but sometimes her parents who feel obliged to go whole hog on a pricey and impressive wedding. These are status symbols which have really nothing to do with marriage but everything to do with pride, a sin of which we are all guilty in some areas.
I knew he did lots of bad television shows, too, but that turns out to be James Komack, and they weren't all of them awful. Was thinking, 'poor Mrs Livingston, whatever that actress's name was'.
"Why are you "broken" and "violated" if you walk away from bad pick-up lines like that?"
Because "me too." Joining the club.
One of the saddest experiences of my career was having to tell a nuclear engineer from San Onofre power plant in San Clemente that he had AIDS. He said "That can't be. I've been in a committed relationship for ten years !"
Unfortunately, a half committed relationship.
What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women? It's very odd.
No magazine perhaps.
A guy can't masturbate without thinking of a woman, at least a straight guy; what's true for women I can't say.
Liz Warren was chased around a desk! A young Claire McCaskill was told by the Speaker of the Missouri House of Representatives to bring knee pads if she wanted to get her bill out of committee....and so on.
Oh, Bullshit!! I can't imagine sex with either of those clowns.
I think the masturbation is about diseases, to be honest. If you are talking about that many women, your dick is going to end up looking like that magic mushroom in the picture on the earlier thread.
Women take stuff more personally than they should owing to an ignorance of how guys work. There's pretty important wiring to take account of, that turns on and off.
Some guys refuse even offered one night stands just because it makes a mess and leaves nothing but the mess. A relationship that continues regardless completely overcomes that. The sex part turns off temporarily, is all. The company continues.
Blogger Roughcoat said..."Why should [Althouse] disavow [O'Reilly]? She never endorsed him."
Mutaman apparently is another one of those who thinks O'Reilly is conservative.
Aphrodite and Chlamydia, a couple of goddesses.
Personally, I think Robert Downy Jr is the best actor of his generation, by far. Not even close.
The casting couch, friendship with benefits, and Planned Parenthood are all wicked solutions to hard problems.
before the pill and abortion were so available. I don't think that is true anymore. Children and family and companionship are more important now.
It seems that the opposite is true. Both contraceptives and abortion enabled the selective-child (i.e. debased human life) phenomenon, friendship with benefits (i.e. uncommitted, commodity coupling), and colors on the transgender spectrum relationship contemporary craze.
I'm unsure what this is all about. Forced sexual favors? Qiud pro quo, sex for career trades? Cases of improper advances? Go along to get along? If the latter then the entire Democratic establishment should be condemned for this Hollywood scandal. "You're a Republican? You'll never work in this town again." It seems a matter of degree to me. Forced behavior is wrong whether sex is involved or not.
Wasn't RDJr in Back to School, shot here in Madison, at about that time? (1987)
Toddles off to imdb.com
Yes. But it was shot Fall 1985, I think. I know I was in town for it. (Very exciting!)
"What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women?"
There's an additional element the female accusers aren't mentioning - apparently to save face. For example, men don't buy Ladies' Home Journal to masturbate, they buy Penthouse or Playboy, etc.. Therefore, the "victim" must be nude or semi-nude in order to facilitate the "process."
There may be exceptions, but they're rare and don't alter the rule. So, take the "innocent spectator" factor with a truckload of salt.
Amazing that Chick Todd of NBC had the chutzpah to highlight the women senators with #MeToo tales when it was NBC that tried to deep six Ronan Farrow’s explosive exposé.
I remember watching a lauding documentary about him, starting himself, a few years ago. The doc followed him around while making a movie that probably didn't come out.
I do remember one of his works "Black and White" (1999).
Now that I think about it... did he used race as cover to distract misogyny in that film?
BTW. Woody Allen appears on the doc praising Toback.
oh wait. I goofed. Black and White (1999) was not the doc I was referring to.
The doc I was referencing was "The Outsider"
Good title given what we are now learing.
You know the old cliché, guys learn guitar when they figure out it attracts chicks.
Some guys, apparently, were too lazy to put in all that work ;)
"What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women?"
Don't flashers act similarly? It's the shock value that they find titillating.
What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women? It's very odd.
I heard the story in This American Life of an inmate who exposed himself to a female guard and proceeded to ejaculate w/o the benefit of using his hands.
Subsequently they were joined in matrimony.
This might be a rare case, an outlier.
"What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women?"
I assume it's a pretty common sexual preference. It seems to have to do with self-humiliation and fear of rejection... or some throwback to boyhood, getting caught by mother.
Oh my. Gina Gershon is older than me.
I'm looking up Toback's potential... what are we calling them?
The wanting to masturbate in front of women reminds me of Anthony Weiner and wanting to send pictures of his groin to women he barely knew. Weinstein also requested that women watch him shower. Are these sexual preferences related? Are they more common to people who seek fame or power? I don't think they're that common among the general population.
"What's the deal with these guys wanting to masturbate in front of these women?"
We used to call them "jagoffs." Now we just call them Chucks.
He resembles Edward VII who traded wealth and power for sexual over a long reign using up 50 mistresses not counting short termers. Aristocracy has its own sex life with its own rules. God save the Hollywood Producer King.
Looks like Ron Jeremy. At least from this angle.
Guys eroticize the darndest things. I myself get off on Martha Radatz wiping away tears on election night. I've been told it's an unusual fetish, and they won't let me use Starbucks anymore because of it. We're never far from our Puritan founders.......There's a kind of Gregor Samsa vibe about Toback and Weinstein. They live in a land where beauty is the accepted currency, and they themselves are as ugly as a leper's foot. Maybe they're exhibitionists because they are so ugly. Their ugliness is a shock to the system and is a kind of super power. Gregor Samsa is coming for you and will make you suffer for the unearned privilege conferred on beautiful women. Gregor will make the world hole.
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
I assume it's a pretty common sexual preference.
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Good grief.
One thing about these Hollywood serial abusers and rapists, they are all very handsome.
"l assume it's a pretty common sexual preference. It seems to have to do with self-humiliation and fear of rejection... or some throwback to boyhood, getting caught by mother."
Our Blog Hostess is so outstanding in so many ways, but on this one, No!
This is weird and creepy behavior - particularly in an adult, fer chrissake.
At some point, You learn to ask girls out on dates. You learn to treat girls with good vibe and good humor, and respect. If they are attractive, there is almost nothing better than having a pretty girl on your arm, smiling, laughing, joking, as you stroll thru town. If the date works, and they want to see you again, or want a little intimate contact, all sorts of good things ensue.
This was how it worked for decades, until the Left screwed up relations between the sexes.
pacwest said...
I'm unsure what this is all about. Forced sexual favors? Qiud pro quo, sex for career trades? Cases of improper advances? Go along to get along? If the latter then the entire Democratic establishment should be condemned for this Hollywood scandal. "You're a Republican? You'll never work in this town again." It seems a matter of degree to me. Forced behavior is wrong whether sex is involved or not."
Not to excuse these guys, especially if actual rape is involved but other than that the woman who agreed aren't worthy of sympathy. There was no forced choice. Being a movie star is a career path option.Not a mandate. Those woman who are uniformly all rather attractive made a choice. They could have made other choices. But I suspect most of them not being overly intelligent or possessing other talents and skills preferred the yuckiness of a moment with the chance of a great payday versus the life of a waitress or barmaid not that there is anything wrong with being a waitress or barmaid.
I assume it's a pretty common sexual preference.
I did read somewhere Hugh Marston Hefner, in his mature years, the act in question was a common occurrence at the mansion.
Again I would discount Marston as an outlier.
The moral of the story is: If you HAVE any [morals], stay out of Hollywood.
@n.n.
The consensus is to reject normalization, and remains to promote committed, coupled relationships. With time, it has been observed that rejection is an unsustainable solution to a wicked problem. So, we have the casting couch, the friendship with benefits, and Planned Parenthood, to avoid addressing causes and hopefully to marginalize their consequences.for normalization. I am reading this as saying that by denying men sanctioned outlets for this energy, is bubbling up in inappropriate and ultimately destructive ways. This reminds me of an argument I would frequently make in the late 90s in the porn-causes-rape debate. Anti-porn feminists would often point out that many serial killers were known to have an interest in violent pornography (p.s. and in the mean time demonstrating the classic correlation/causation confusion). Yet, Japanese pornography was often extremely violent, including very realistic (but actually staged) scenes of gang rape while rates of sexual assault (by every known criminologic measure) were much less than the U.S. Similarly, since extreme pornography has been accessible to virtually anyone with an Internet connection since the late 1990s, the rate of reported sexual assaults has declined. I obviously have no definitive explanation for this, but I would suggest that these avenues provide an outlet for an orientation that could otherwise act out in much more antisocial ways.
The interesting stuff will stay hidden, since there is no benefit to let it out. The last star who was public about sleeping her way to the top was Marilyn Monroe.
My guess is you have at least a 10 to 1 ratio of overall victims to accusers with Weinstein.
I am waiting for the Laslo Films remake of "The Producers"
I know someone he conned. She was a talented Art student in a non entertainment related field... A bit of a prodigy really. Great internships, squeaky clean religious family - flyover all the way, if a bit naive. She dropped out if school and moved to LA - her parents bragging the entire time about her continued amazing fortune. She never got back on track. Her dealings nowadays are financially fortuitous, but vague. Her real area of talent is history. Her parents are sidelined and they don't know why. They take her at her word, you see. I don't. I see the shade and know why she has created distance. At the time, I figured it was OK because her parents were involved, but he conned them, too. There was even an attorney.
This kind of thing has long and far reaching consequences. Don't think it couldn't happen to you and yours because these people were 'you and yours'.
Can you really sleep your way to the top? Why would a sleaze suddenly turn honorable if you do whatever sex thing he wants? That's when most guys shut down. I can see sex being the proverbial foot in the door, and being shut out if you don't agree, but that's about it.
I would suggest that these avenues provide an outlet for an orientation that could otherwise act out in much more antisocial ways.
I agree, which is why I stated there are two realistic options: normalization of a preferred orientation and tolerance at a distance for others that can be tolerated.
I would suggest that these avenues provide an outlet for an orientation that could otherwise act out in much more antisocial ways.
The problem with this argument is that it rationalized, among other things, the "Choice", but also diversity (e.g. color, sex), "clean" wars, immigration "reform", political congruence ("="), and the CAGW (e.g. carbon trading, extra-scientific assertions/assumptions) enterprise. Religion/morality was replaced with environmental stability and placed us on a progressive slope.
EDH said...
I thought some of Toback's best work was the character "Mel" on TV's Alice.
It must have been hell for each of those three struggling waitresses.
Even when Flo and Alice gave him sass they must have all felt violated.
10/22/17, 12:42 PM
er, for the record... that was the late Vic Tayback, T-A-Y-B-A-C-K in Alice - not this guy James Toback. Geesh...
After contraception was invented, it was all downhill N.N.
dwick,
You wouldn't want Toback handling your food...
How could he even think he could have her if he didn't give some major career advancement in exchange!
That's awfully lookist, ma'am.
Maybe he's a sparkling conversationalist and able to both think deeply and communicate those deep thoughts in a way that melts women's hearts. Maybe he has a high emotional intelligence, an abundance of empathy, and a talent for inspiring good feelings in women he meets.
I mean, probably not! But it seems a bit old-fashioned to conclude from a picture of an unattractive person that no very-attractive person would have sexual relations with them unless some coercion was involved.
J Farmer said....
Trading sexual favors for personal gain is as old as history. It's called 'prostitution'.
Is that not also the cornerstone of marriage?
Michael K responded...
I think it might have been before the pill and abortion were so available.
I don't think that is true anymore. Children and family and companionship are more important now.
I'm so taken aback by this I don't know what to say. Does anyone really believe this is true?
Women are always victims. They can’t be determiners of their own agency. Even if they willingly sleep with the cad they are still victimized by him. Did they never hear the word NO?
We are assuming these women are adults. Yet adults need to accept the consequences of their choices. And it seems like many of these women don’t want to own up to their own responsibility. Playing the victim is always easier.
“And the horrible thing is, whichever road you choose, whether you sleep with him or walk away, you're still broken... You have been violated."
If he is forcing himself on women then sure, we can say he’s a rapist. But if they are choosing) to sleep with him despite him being an oily creep, then it’s on them. And everyone in life has been hit on by creepy people and said NO. It didn’t break them. You’re not actually violated if you’re not actually violated.
If someone 'dry-humped' my leg I would instinctively kick them in the groin. What's wrong with these women???
My thoughts exactly. Do fathers not teach their daughters anything these days?
When the Weinstein story first broke I kept expecting to hear of at least a few badass actresses who'd put him in his place. No one had the guts to say something like, "Mr. Weinstein, I can see that you are aroused by my appearance but if we're going to treat my body as a commodity then let's save it for the paying customers and you and I can make a nice profit off of it."
Can't you just see one of the old Hollywood legend actresses delivering a line like that (right after he starts his bathrobe routine, as she crosses the room and rests her long-gloved hand on the doorknob?) And the next shot is Weinstein alone in the room, moving to a close up of his crestfallen face but after a brief pause he breaks out in laughter and calls her agent to sign her for his next picture.
Ok, so that's the Hollywood version, but in reality I do think that if a sexy, beautiful and talented actress had stood up to him in that way and reminded him of the stakes it's likely to have ended with either a movie contract or at the very least he would not have dared to cross her in the future.
@walter:
Do tell.
That must be a weird shopping experience...and pricing process.
Here is an article from WaPo from 1994, 24 years ago: SPERM BANKS SEEKING IVY LEAGUE DEPOSITS
Seen today: Spy Magazine did a story on Toback in 1989!
Link. Starts on page 86.
What complicates this issue is that many women seem to blame others for their regretted decisions. She didn't choose poorly, her boyfriend/hubby was a creep.
Once, when we were arguing, my ex accused me of marital rape. I asked her, "Did I use physical force?" "No." "Did I coerce you in any way, like making a financial threat?" "No." "I whined, pleaded and begged. I wasn't gallant but browbeating you into a blowjob isn't rape."
Weinstein and Toback are, at the least, creeps, and quite possibly sexual criminals, but just how far will "sexual harrassment" be defined down? How many unwanted requests for a date are needed for it to be harrassment?
Also, how many of the women now coming forward alleging some of the lesser bad acts by Weinstein have never flirted with a man to get what they want?
"It's a good time to hurt and embarrass every unattractive guy who got a pretty woman to give him some time by portraying himself as a useful contact."
Thanks for being upfront about that. As comedian Jan Karam once said, if the guy's attractive, it's flirting; if not, it's sexual harassment.
Wasn't Nathan Lane hilarious in the updated "The Producers" when he said, "Who do I have to *** in this town" to get a job or movie? (--whatever since I think Zero and Gene were funny enough to keep me from watching a remake.) Or is that just more of people trying to have their cake and eat it, too.
11 years ago my then-girlfriend told me about being approached by Toback on the street in Manhattan years earlier. She shot him down but every detail she told me then jibes with what these women have reported.
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