Islamic State claims Las Vegas attack, says shooter converted to Islam months ago, but provides no evidence.Why not claim the incident as theirs after the fact?
२ ऑक्टोबर, २०१७
"ISIS claims responsibility for Las Vegas massacre."
AP reports.
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Media happy to report this, as we might find out the shooter was a crazy leftwing nutjob.
Too soon to jump to conclusions.
Has ISIS ever lied about taking credit for a terrorist attack?
I seem to think when they say someone was a "soldier" they always have video proof.
Did they call him a soldier? Has ISIS ever falsely taken credit for a lone wolf attack?
Better reporting would be nice .
I guess they figure they may as well try to take credit, but who knows? It's still early.
I suppose it COULD be true, but I will believe it when there is some evidence for the ISIS statement, and not before. Like if they publish a video with him making his declaration. Sure, ISIS would like to claim it.
Right now all we know is that this was a well-planned mass murder. I am sure law enforcement will find out more about the killer as they investigate.
But he was dead before the cops got to him, indicating suicide. Not usually how ISIS guys chose to end it.
I prefer to wait until the dust settles.
I hate to say this but after the world's fastest FBI investigation of the Scalise shooter. I think I just ISIS more than the FBI.
Just=trust.
I wonder how long the website for "BattlefieldVegas.com" is going to remain up.
It is the Vegas fantasy-camp for military fans who want to shoot machine guns, .50 cal. rifles, etc. Get dressed up in fatigues, drive around in HumVees.
They must have some interesting permitting, to allow them to collect an arsenal of small arms which all require expensive federal tax stamps, and then to invite members of the public in to shoot them.
I think that ISIS is credible in these matters. We already have witnesses claiming that two others at least, knew about the attack prior to it.
"Why not claim the incident as theirs after the fact?"
On the other hand, if true - that he was a Muslim convert - that would explain it all.
“So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them [even if they’re in Las Vegas, & especially if they’re listening to haram music], and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”
– Quran 9:5
Right now all we know is that this was a well-planned mass murder.
He evidently knew about the country music concert well in advance, or with at least enough lead time to reserve a hotel room overlooking the performance site. The Mandalay Bay hotel is shaped like a symmetrical Y. If he booked a room at random the odds would be only 1 in 3 that he would even have a view of his target.
Ten guns (rifles I suppose) are pretty bulky, not to mention the ammo. Paddock would have had to pack them carefully so as not to arouse suspicion. I'd be interested in hearing from the porter who escorted him to his room.
"we might find out the shooter was a crazy leftwing nutjob."
If so, we will know when the incident suddenly disappears from the media.
The country music festival as a target is interesting. I called my son to check that no one we know was there and all are safe.,
Typically country music is seen as conservative, but certainly not exclusively.
If the Dixie Chicks were performing, I think the MSM would have told us by now.
Tim - I don't think they are credible at all. I think they have a huge incentive to claim this, whether they know anything about it or not.
They probably are just hoping.
tim in vermont said... [hush][hide comment]
I think that ISIS is credible in these matters. We already have witnesses claiming that two others at least, knew about the attack prior to it.
Nope.
It wasn't an impulsive act. This much premeditation indicates that something beyond craziness may be involved.
"I think that ISIS is credible in these matters. We already have witnesses claiming that two others at least, knew about the attack prior to it."
Thinks ISIS is credible? Nutty.
I don't know if the shooter is a Muslim convert or not. It appears as if the gf visited Dubai recently. I don't get why she was released so quickly.
What is terrifying is you know ISIS is taking notes on this one.
I do not take ISIS's word about anything. If he was Muslim there will be independent evidence of it. Let's not jump to conclusions. I wonder where he got the automatic weapons.
Girlfriend out of the country, where ?, brother knows nothing, I won't be surprised if it is. Not surprised at all.
This much premeditation indicates that something beyond craziness may be involved.
Yep.
From NPR:
Has ISIS ever claimed responsibility for attacks that turned out to be totally unrelated to it?
"We have not been able to find a real lie from ISIS," said Katz, who follows the group's social media obsessively with a critical eye. "Despite the fact that they are a terrorist organization, they want to provide their followers and supporters with authentic information."
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/24/529685951/what-does-it-mean-when-isis-claims-responsibility-for-an-attack
I wonder where he got the automatic weapons.
10/2/17, 10:18 AM
I do too. It's my understanding that they are very difficult to buy legally and extremely expensive to boot.
Most likely it's either ISIS or a Hodkinson evil leftist scenario. Is it true his "companion" was a dedicated Bernie Bro--rather, Sister?
One big tell is that several leftists here are pleading for "don't judge yet!" Including those who were cheering the Steve Scalise shooting like Brookzene.
I wonder if they know something?
--Vance
UnknownInga said...
Thinks ISIS is credible? Nutty.
From NPR:
Has ISIS ever claimed responsibility for attacks that turned out to be totally unrelated to it?
"We have not been able to find a real lie from ISIS," said Katz, who follows the group's social media obsessively with a critical eye. "Despite the fact that they are a terrorist organization, they want to provide their followers and supporters with authentic information."
Inga, you'd better call NPR right now and tell them this Katz guy is nutty.
Because you are such an expert on ISIS.
Do you ever get tired of beclowning yourself?
My BS meter needle just flicked way over to the right. I think I will just wait, even though the anti-NRA rants have already started.
"It appears as if the gf visited Dubai recently. I don't get why she was released so quickly."
It "appears"? Where, in your crystal ball?
The Orlando deadly shooting was perpetrated by an Islamic leftwing nut job. The father of the killer - a HUGE Hillary supporter.
Media strangely non-judgmental and incurious.
It remains to be determined whether or not this was an ISIS inspired or directed event.
Marilou is a critical witness as is the gun dealers that sold the weapons, ammunition, licensing and training. In the weeks and months to come this will be revealed. What may be more interesting is if we start seeing other copy cat mass shootings in the USA, Canada, Europe and elsewhere.
Now we are reminded of what every Israeli deals with every day.
grackle said...
This much premeditation indicates that something beyond craziness may be involved.
Yep.
10/2/17, 10:19 AM
Not really. You guys think crazy people cannot plan ahead?
Eliminates a suddenly impulsive act, like reaction to an argument. Which, btw is the "two others who knew about it", people in an argument threatening the other party.
According to one witness, a woman who matches the description of the shooter’s roommate, Marylou Danley, taunted some concertgoers about 45 minutes before the attack that they were “all going to die.”
That witness mentioned the woman was accompanied by a man. She said the couple were both short statued and Hispanic-looking (whatever that means). It's possible the unidentified man has nothing to do with the woman in question and the witness simply assumed an association. However, it is reasonable to assume the man was not Paddock, who was fair and Anglo-Saxon in appearance. Odd. Very odd. This isn't looking like a lone nut scenario. Paddock may have been a loon, but it looks like he had help, or if not help, at least one person who knew what he was up to.
The sources I've seen claim that the police contacted Danley "out of the country" (Mexico?) If true that means Danley must have fled immediately after the "taunting" incident. Very strange. I'm really flummoxed by the attitude of the Las Vagas police. Danley is out of reach, at least for now, and can't be held as a suspect. But why announce to the press that she is no longer a "person of interest" at this extremely early stage of the investigation?
We know nothing as yet.
But not one of us was surprised. Muslims are a tiny fraction of the US population, and yet all of us, liberal and conservative, wondered if he was a Muslim when we heard about the shooting. "65-year-old white guy, sure doesn't sound Muslim, still, hmm"
Right now we're running a politics lottery where conservatives hope he turns out to be a Muslim so that they can add him to their numbers, liberals hope he turns out to be a "far-right" pseudo-Christian nutter so they can add him to their numbers, and conservatives also hope he turns out to be a Sanders supporter...
I'm really flummoxed by the attitude of the Las Vagas police. Danley is out of reach, at least for now, and can't be held as a suspect. But why announce to the press that she is no longer a "person of interest" at this extremely early stage of the investigation?
10/2/17, 10:28 AM
It is baffling. I remember being flummoxed by the San Bern police who let the media get into the shooters' place and contaminate a crime scene. Was anybody ever reprimanded for that?
I think it's against their religion to lie.
Compared to the family's "just a normal guy who snapped" explanation, the ISIS claim fits the facts (careful extensive preparation, days at the hotel to bring up ammo and numerous rifles, sight them in, etc.) better.
Danley was found in the Philippines. Paddock had used her ID to check into the hotel, which is why she was initially thought to have been an accomplice.
Since she was his domestic partner for a while I would assume (hope?) authorities will still be questioning her...but the fact that she was not in the country last night explains why she is not directly involved. And clearly she was not the woman who gave the warning at the concert.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/las-vegas-shooting-female-person-of-interest-former-gold-coast-resident/news-story/cedeba1038e3f79f0d4217b09ecd9778
Other sources reporting this too.
Tim & Bill - but that was when ISIS wasn't losing badly, as they now are. They really have a huge incentive to claim this even if the motive has nothing to do with ISIS or Islam.
If the motive was Islam, then we will soon know, because you don't get credit from Allah for your deed unless you publicly witness to it. Technically, martyrdom in Islam requires not just a deed, but a public statement/demonstration, and the word martyr actually means "witness". hat's why the Pulse shooter called 911 and made his statement, why they find these people with IS flags, etc.
I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying that an unsupported ISIS statement has no credibility, in my mind, under current circumstances.
Unknown said...
"It appears as if the gf visited Dubai recently. I don't get why she was released so quickly."
It "appears"? Where, in your crystal ball?"
No, fool, I leave crystal ball gazing to you, the ISIS expert.
My information came from Danley's FB page:
Marilou Danley’s Facebook profile reads, “Proud mom and grandma who lives life to the fullest.” In 2016, she wrote in the comment thread under a photo, “…Kuha Sa Jumeira Beach, Dubai.” She also wrote under that photo, “That’s a beautiful City except it’s hot. Will be back there next year to visit my niece.”
I simply pointed out the visit. I have not concluded that this was a Muslim terror attack. Unlike you, I am willing to wait for more facts to come out before I jump to conclusions.
Wasn't a warning. It was an unrelated bullshit threat by a person in an argument.
I hadn't heard that but am not surprised it was unrelated. My point was that the reason it got traction at all was because the description sounded like it could have been Danley (though the concertgoer would have mistaken her race.)
The shooter resembles my far left brother in law who could have passed for the Unibomber when he was younger.
It's my understanding that they are very difficult to buy legally and extremely expensive to boot.
There are two kinds of automatic weapons legally available to citizens. Most typically described as "transferable". These are registered machine guns which come with a shitload of paperwork, an investigation of both parties by Federal law enforcement, and a hefty tax. $5000 dollars and about a month of waiting on the bureaucracy to complete its task is required for the cheapest gun. Some transferable MGs have sold for more than a million at auction. Others fall under the category known as "dealer samples". These can only be purchased by duly licensed firearms dealers, essentially unobtainium. There nothing special about a "dealer sample" firearm and a "transferable" firearm other than the legalese.
Illegal machine guns that move through the same channels as illegal drugs are much more available — and often cheaper — than legal machine guns.
IIRC, before 1986 all you needed to legally own an automatic weapon was a FFL license, and there still are a few such "grandfather" owners around, though quite elderly by now. After 1986, it takes a special FFL granted only to dealers who must prove they are legitimate businesses and have contracts to supply the U.S. military or government police forces.
Black market full auto weapons apparently are not that difficult or expensive to obtain. Even the teenagers at Columbine had at least one machine pistol, and I think there are lots of ex-military AK-47, etc., floating around. One guy from Connecticut posted that he stopped on a street corner and announced to the air that he was in the market for one, and that evening a guy showed up on his doorstep with a Chinese AK-47 still in cosmoline in one hand and a note asking $350 in the other.
You guys think crazy people cannot plan ahead?
Depends on what you consider “crazy.” Any murderous leftwing nut is usually called “crazy” by the Left as a way to deconstruct the political angle. Rightwing murderous nutcases are usually called “conservatives.”
Getting illegal automatic weapons and ammo and getting them into the hotel would require careful planning and a series of complicated subterfuges. But real crazies do not usually plan this carefully because their hold on reality is usually not firm enough.
It's very common for terrorist groups to say, "Yeah, we did that" whenever something like this happens. It's way too soon to know if it's true in this case. About 90% of what we've heard reported so far will likely be proven false in the days and weeks to come. Between the natural confusion following a mass attack and sloppy reporting, at this point we know very little about why this happened.
Chuck
There are many gun stores nationwide that will happily charge you to shoot one of their machine guns.
All that we know so far is his last residence was in Florida, that he is retired from what? that he likes to gamble, owns two planes and had at least 10 weapons in the hotel room that he seemed to know how to use and aim well. And according to his brother was not involved in politics or religion -- other than that what folks suggest is pure projection.
But real crazies do not usually plan this carefully because their hold on reality is usually not firm enough.
10/2/17, 10:56 AM
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Wouldn't a schizophrenic be more likely to simply walk into a crowd and start firing, because the space aliens are ordering him to do so?
"Getting illegal automatic weapons and ammo and getting them into the hotel would require careful planning and a series of complicated subterfuges. But real crazies do not usually plan this carefully because their hold on reality is usually not firm enough."
The Unabomber comes to mind. He was a meticulous killer.
"Several (but not all) of the forensic psychiatrists and psychologists who examined Kaczynski diagnosed him as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Renowned forensic psychiatrist Dr. Park Dietz suggested Kaczynski was not psychotic but suffered instead from a schizoid or schizotypal personality disorder. Following a failed attempt to hang himself, he was found competent to stand trial and pled guilty to the charges in a deal with prosecutors to avoid the death penalty. Though his defense attorneys tried to enter a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, Kaczynski refused, perhaps in part due to denial about his illness, a very common symptom of schizophrenia; or perhaps because of his own narcissism, not wanting to be maligned as mentally ill. He is currently serving a life sentence without possibility of parole in a Colorado prison."
Psychology Today
Hagar, why aren't they used more often in crimes? Can't believe the MSM would keep that from us.
@FullMoon:
You guys think crazy people cannot plan ahead?
What do you mean by "crazy?" In fact, a lot of disturbed people do plan ahead, sometimes obsessive and methodically. The idea of a "crazy person" as some babbling person on the streets is not really accurate. People that are psychopathic are also often very methodical in the way they operate. Look at stalkers who kill famous people or any of a number of mass shooting incidents. Many of the perpetrators thought about and planned attacks for quite a while before actually perpetrating them.
The FBI says the shooter who killed 58 people and injured more than 500 others at a Las Vegas concert had no connection to an international terrorist group.
That's remarkably definitive given the dearth of facts. Either someone has been misquoted or there's an FBI agent who needs to learn to keep his mouth shut.
I think it's against their religion to lie
Only sometimes. The doctrine of taqiyya permits lying in order to further Islam.
"Wouldn't a schizophrenic be more likely to simply walk into a crowd and start firing, because the space aliens are ordering him to do so?"
I have not walked into a crowd and started firing.
Sometimes the voices are quite reasonable.
I am Laslo.
The left is softening their anti-gun rhetoric of late. Why? Because they are arming themselves for the resistance. I have personally seen evidence of this.
Gun laws are never going to affect these kinds of massacres, anyway, any more than they did Mob shootings of the 20's where they mowed each other down with Thompson machine guns and similar firearms.
The example of the '67 University of Texas shooter belies any claim that psychotic individuals cannot plan their crimes with intricacy.
Many of the perpetrators thought about and planned attacks for quite a while before actually perpetrating them.
True. There are a few cases of persons going off-his-rocker berserk in the stereotypical manner — apparently healthy one minute and then BOOM! Chaos ensues. This isn't to be expected, however. Most psychotic killers do plan their crimes. And they frequently document their plans in writing. Charles Whitman kept an extensive journal. His writings illustrate a mind in dissolution, his thought processes evidently rebounding between lucid clarity — I'm going insane! — to detailed planning on where, when, and how to cause mass casualties, interspersed with full-on graphorrhea. The Unabomber wrote over 40,000 handwritten pages on his philosophy and his bomb designs. Arthur Bremer kept a diary, as did John Hinckley and Mark David Chapman. Even the semi-literate Dylan Roof felt the need to document himself.
If Paddock was a nut and not a terrorist, odds are good his home contains reams of written evidence.
"A new video released by ISIS today that heavily praised Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen also made specific threats against San Francisco and Las Vegas. - June, 2016
Hillary already knows who is responsible. Wait for it...
the NRA!
Brilliant work by the traitorous bitch. And she is so behind the times.
So we have television interview of a witness who claims that a couple was taunting concert goers that they were all going to die. A claim by ISIS following a specific threat by ISIS against Las Vegas, and our politically correct FBI assurances that they have already proven a negative.
The left remains incurious.
It is probably wise to wait for more reliable information, but it is interesting the lack of it after 12 hours in the media.
mockturtle said...
The left is softening their anti-gun rhetoric of late."
Not all of them, mock. See the quote I posted in the other shooting thread about the top CBS exec who says she is not "even sympathetic" to the victims, because they were CW fans and probably gun-loving "Repugs" (her word) and so not deserving of compassion.
If she admits that openly, think of how many leftists are delighting in these murders. They get to scream about gun control and the NRA while secretly (and not so secretly) enjoying the bloodshed.
What ghouls they are.
grackle said...
I do not take ISIS's word about anything. If he was Muslim there will be independent evidence of it. Let's not jump to conclusions. I wonder where he got the automatic weapons.
There are other options.
One is a trigger crank. Just like it sounds you insert it into the trigger well and turn the crank. I imagine there are automated ones that allow you to push a button to start.
The other is the "Auto-glove." It was just recently declared illegal. Like the crank but it fits like a glove.
Both of these pretty much turn semi-autos into rapid fire weapons. I haven't had one of the videos play yet so I haven't heard the sound.
People are getting all hoppy about the full-auto aspect. I just want to point out that when we went out everyone had a full auto-option weapon. We almost never used it. There were literally a handful of situations.
Even the actual guns like the 240/48 a the SAW/46 were fired in extremely short bursts. They generally pulled the trigger in the same fashion as a semi-auto providing a 3-4 round burst. Every now and then the ROF would be upped if the team leader called it out but at most 7-9 rounds a burst.
I don't remember a time where anyone purposely went cyclic for multiple seconds. It is just dumb. You can pretty easily tell the person is untrained when you hear that.
Admittedly bizarrely, the first person I thought of when I heard this slaughter occurred at a country music venue was ... Buddy Rich, famous despiser of country music.
Buddy has an alibi. He's been in the grave for a few decades.
Exiled, I was referring specifically to Antifa types. I should have been specific.
About the same time as the threat, right after the Pulse shootings, ISIS called out for more politically correct targets, as I recall, aa the Pulse shootings turned off their enablers.
exiledonmainstreet said...
I wonder where he got the automatic weapons.
10/2/17, 10:18 AM
I do too. It's my understanding that they are very difficult to buy legally and extremely expensive to boot.
10/2/17, 10:20 AM
Yes and yes.
Citizens can typically own full automatic weapons. It is not easy or cheap. First, you need to find an automatic weapon that is "transferable". This means that it existed as a fully automatic weapon (or select fire) prior to the 1986 law signed by Reagan AND was registered as such with the government. You need to locate an FFL in your state that can receive class III weapons. You have to complete a LOT of paper work (either personal background check or corporation/trust - get a lawyer), purchase the firearm (minimum cost $8K to $10k for the low end, talking full auto Ruger 10/22 or Mini-14 or select fire M2 carbine or cheap Uzi sort of thing) and have it shipped to the FFL identified above. Complete rest of paperwork with FFL (includes details on firearm) and summit to government with fee plus tax stamp fee of $200. Wait 6 to 9 months. FFL receives reply and he calls you to tell you the good news or to help you list the weapon for sale while never having a chance to touch it. Also, even though the Feds say it is OK, does your state allow you to own one? Is similar to the process of getting a suppressor.
The other way is to either get one illegally or make the modifications to an existing "modifiable" rifle illegally. Either one of these two options would get you at least 10 years in Federal cell.
Pure speculation: is it possible that his conversion to Islam was a sham, that he did so for ISIS' assistance in obtaining the weapons (or modifying them for full-auto operation)?
My first response after the shock was the security people at the hotel did a great job looking the other way while this guy smuggled 10 or more long guns into his room. Either they were asleep, or he took them in in pieces. I thought they were keen on security in Vegas - just on the gambllng floors I guess.
Pure speculation: is it possible that his conversion to Islam was a sham, that he did so for ISIS' assistance in obtaining the weapons (or modifying them for full-auto operation)?
I've made this point elsewhere, but perhaps the third time's the charm. Here goes, anyone who buys drugs illegally, be it cocaine, heroin, meth, pot, whatever is in contact with a supply chain that can get you anything you want, including military-grade weapons.
Modifying a semi-auto rifle to fire full auto is much more difficult than many seem to think. All semi-auto rifles manufactured since the "assault weapons ban" (1994 - 2004) are designed to prevent such modifications. For example, all civilian AR-15 lower receivers have a block of solid aluminum which prevents installation of full-auto fire control group. People who say it's just a matter of the judicious application of a file to the disconnector haven't tried it. A person can render the disconnector inoperative several ways, but this doesn't turn your semi-auto AR-15 into an M-4 carbine. The weapon will fire three or four rounds wildly then double-feed and jam open. It is possible for someone with the right machine tools and considerable skill to modify the AR-15 lower sufficiently to make room for a full-auto trigger group, But where do you get that? In the case of the M-16 and M-4 military weapons, it's the trigger pack itself that's the "machine gun".
Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons.
If you are trying to make sense of it... you won't. Because you are not crazy.
My first response after the shock was the security people at the hotel did a great job looking the other way while this guy smuggled 10 or more long guns into his room. Either they were asleep, or he took them in in pieces. I thought they were keen on security in Vegas - just on the gambllng floors I guess.
Even more bizarre are reports I've seen that hotel staff had been in the room and didn't see anything unusual.
I know that housekeeping isn't expected to perform security sweeps but how is it possible to not notice an arsenal?
Khesanh notes: My first response after the shock was the security people at the hotel did a great job looking the other way while this guy smuggled 10 or more long guns into his room. Either they were asleep, or he took them in in pieces. I thought they were keen on security in Vegas - just on the gambllng floors I guess.
I wondered the same thing. But, then, I'm always amazed at the laxity of 'security' everywhere.
I think ISIS is just being opportunist. Recruitment is down and they had put out a video suggesting an attack like this, and some old sociopath obliged. Why not try to capitalize on it? From their perspective it makes sense.
I think ISIS is just being opportunist. Recruitment is down and they had put out a video suggesting an attack like this, and some old sociopath obliged. Why not try to capitalize on it? From their perspective it makes sense.
You're probably right. They'll be taking credit soon for the Kennedy assassination.
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