Subscribe to the podcast in the normal way or start here at the L.A. Times where you can play the audio (highly recommended) or have a reading experience (with photographs).
In "'Dirty John': Journalism as Noir Entertainment" (New Yorker)("mild spoilers"), Sarah Larson questions the mixing of journalism with entertainment — the "pulp-like tone":
John is shown to be thoroughly evil—a descriptor used by several interviewees—and the story freely presents him as a monster. It does this journalistically, through legal documentation, jail records, first-person accounts, archival recordings, text messages, restraining orders, and so on. But it also does so narratively, with the kind of language we might hear in [the old radio melodrama] “Leiningen Versus the Ants.” [Veteran newspaper journalist Christopher] Goffard seems to encourage an almost mythical impression of his subject’s evil. At one point, Goffard tells a lawyer that the lawyer’s description of John sounds “almost like the opposite of a religious experience, you know, where you meet someone holy and it changes your life? This is sort of the inverse of that. Like you looked into a void.” “That is so true,” the lawyer says, with emotion. “Because we all—we don’t want to believe the really bad things about people. We just don’t. We want to think that people are good. And when you meet somebody like this, and you realize, ‘I am sitting here in the presence of evil incarnate,’ you know that people like him really do exist.”...At Vulture, Nicholas Quah is more critical "Dirty John Is a Stunning Story, But Why Is It a Podcast?"
The podcast is a crude construction, and its choices often come to the detriment of the actual narrative it’s trying to unfurl and ideas it’s itching to explore. Which is a damn shame, because the Dirty John story, as reported by Los Angeles Times reporter Christopher Goffard in a six-part written feature, is a stunner. If you were to give up on the podcast midway through its first episode and switch over to the feature, you’d find a deep, complex tale of domestic abuse and psychological violence that’s rigorously reported, deftly written, and smartly laid out....I got a lot out of hearing the voices of the characters, but I wanted more psychological depth. A man was evil — some people are just evil, we're told, and there's no explanation. You might as well say his skull was full of "green worms" (somebody says, near the end). As for the woman who took him in and took him back repeatedly, she's treated with such respect as The Victim that there's no exploration of the part of the story that would make some sense of her awful choices: profound sexual desire and satisfaction.
47 comments:
As a DVD I would skip buying it. Is it a woman thing?
Is it a woman thing?
I first heard about from a bunch of analytical fantasy baseball fans.
* * *
There's a slightly related thing that I've been observing, which is the number of articles I see warning me about narcissists.
To go along with the end-of-times zeitgeist in movies and novels, we now have the reboot of self-help into other-observation via podcasts and social media. The idea of being gaslighted is a mental squirrel hole that leads everywhere and nowhere and is endlessly diverting for the discontented.
It's a true crime story, audio only, so there's no DVD.
I don't think it would make a good fiction story because it doesn't make a good plot to have things depend on the stupidity of the central character. I think that's called the "idiot plot." But you here the woman explaining herself, and that is interesting. And her mother is an extravagantly over-the-top Christian forgiver. I don't think that would work in fiction. You would just be disgusted or laugh. But she's a real person, it really happened, and you hear her voice.
I figured that the victim is treated with such respect because otherwise the reporter would have lost access to her and her (loving but perplexed) family. I enjoyed the podcast as you did, Prof. Althouse, because we got to hear the actual voices of the players. About halfway through, I started thinking about whose voices I hadn't heard (and who therefore either couldn't or wouldn't speak), which made me consider what was going to happen; it was quite hard for me not to read ahead but I stuck to my guns, and was rewarded by a pretty stunning ending. I'd consider it to the reporter's credit that it took me as long as it did to start thinking about the voices...
For something completely different, has anybody tried "My Dad Wrote A Porno"? I'm hooked. I spend way too much time in school pickup lines with the car windows rolled up so no one can hear what I'm listening to, laughing like a loon.
It makes an interesting accompaniment to the Harvey Weinstein story: amazingly outrageous behavior. It wouldn't work in fiction because it's too extreme, unbelievable. It has to be true to work.
The story of Donald Trump also has to be true to work. He'd be unbelievable as a fictional character.
But she's a real person, it really happened, and you hear her voice.
I'm pretty sure it's a woman's interest thing. Take in all the details, the complexity, come to no principle or conclusion from it.
A guy abstracts away from details and decides she's crazy pretty early, probably, so what's the point.
Just guessing.
Harvey Weinstein could work as a story, and probably will. Guys can understand him.
It wouldn't be interesting for a woman to bring him down though; something he does should backfire and bring him down.
I think Dickens could do Trump.
The mob as an actor in a plot wouldn't work, unless it's something that somebody is rescued from.
The mob isn't a good guy.
I read the 6-part series online. Definitely gripping, but I didn't find it so shocking. There are just so many stories out there along similar lines (both fictional and true), that there was a sort of "Here we go again" feel. There were a couple of interesting twists (the "over-the-top Christian forgiver," for example). But it still seems like a genre at this point.
You could do a hot-button blogger bringing down the mob on somebody who turns out to have an unanticipated relation to the blogger. There's a plot with an unhappy ending that women may like.
I bail out of a DVD when the hero has a drinking problem. Stupid choices aren't interesting.
I think rh has just eliminated all literature starting with Achilles sulking on his boat.
I just bailed out of Executive Action (1973). Too many right wing cliches in a row among the bad guys. Local Hero and Seven Days in May were okay in the same 4-set. The Flame and the Arrow is too stupid to even look at.
I'll look for some mindless action-flick to rewatch instead.
The Illiad needs computer generated action shots, but even so is going to need plot revisions so there's some motivation besides parallels to Helen's whoring around.
Smart women, Foolish choices?
SNL had a funny skit about it. Didn't star Victoria Jackson, it was one of the 2 female comedians.
Seven Days in May was well acted and directed. But the whole premise was moronic.
The FBI, CIA, and Secret service don't exist. Instead its up the Lt. Col. Kirk Douglas and a boozy Southern senator to save the country from a military coup.
Which is also dumb. The "Generals" want to stop a disarmament treaty from going into effect, but the treaty had to get 2/3 of the Senate & how could it have gotten that with the JCS publicly against it?
And why would the POTUS let his JSC publicly disagree? They can be fired at will.
I read the series in the Times and emailed the reporter a couple of times.
When I read the first article, I thought I knew the woman. My partner, after his wife died, had lived in the Balboa Bay club and dated a woman with an almost identical history.
She was an interior decorator who did model homes. She had married two rich men who died and left her their fortunes.
She dated my friend for a couple of years but he broke it off because he was uncomfortable being with her on things that he could not afford half. She would rent a house in the south of France for the month of June and bring her daughters and their kids over the month.
Her daughters had a huge birthday party for her at the Newporter Inn and brought Tom Jones and his act from Vegas to entertain.
Not too long after that, he broke it off and her next boyfriend rode a motorcycle.
I have known a couple of these women but usually they were luckier.
She was lucky to come out of it as well as she did.
“ I'd consider it to the reporter's credit that it took me as long as it did to start thinking about the voices...”
Listen to the first scene again. When you get to the last line of that, you’ll see clearly how you were put off the right track.
Sarah Larson questions the mixing of journalism with entertainment —
She's a little late to the game.
The LA Times long form journalism is second to none.
who becomes inexplicably stupid while in love
Something new and refreshing!
She had married two rich men who died and left her their fortunes.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can’t help it if I’m lucky
He told her “Sex is not love.” Sometimes even sociopaths speak the truth.
I read it in the Times as it was released. I was less fascinated by the sociopath John Meehan than by his wife, who inhabits another kind of pathology.
I know other people, not all women who have been taken in by sociopaths.
My wife's mother gave a younger guy about $500,000 over a period of years. She would not listen to her daughters and was not senile.
A friend of mine, a female orthopedic surgeon, has sent thousands of dollars to some guy in central America.
The Flame and the Arrow is too stupid to even look at.
I loved it when I was a kid. At one and the same time a prototypical buddy picture, a swashbuckler, and an affectionate satire of the swashbuckler genre. Featuring the athleticism of a young Burt Lancaster and Nick Cravat, fresh from their circus trapeze partnership. Quite charming, actually. Loved "Crimson Pirate" too, and for the same reasons.
I didn't know it was a podcast. I read the article last week. I had a hard time understanding the wife. It seems like some people will do anything to prevent being alone. I wondered how much money the wife's business actually generated--seemed impressively lucrative.
Why do true crime/murder stories appeal so strongly to women?
There's a podcast (with two comedienes I like) called "My Favorite Murder."
A psychologist could probably explain the victim fascination or something, but I don't get it.
The Illiad needs computer generated action shots, but even so is going to need plot revisions so there's some motivation besides parallels to Helen's whoring around.
Nah. Helen's whoring around is incidental to the Iliad's story. The Iliad starts 10 years after Helen ran off with Alexandros and concerns the wrath of Achilleus, which deals with vast and profound themes above and beyond the Achaean hero's anger over the way Agamemnon treated him.
Wolfgang Petersen made plot revisions for his movie "Troy." The result was a travesty. Petersen even has Alexandros and Helen escaping the ruin of Troy! That's unforgivable, rather like changing the plot of Christ's Oassion to have the Son of God escape crucifixion and mortal death, and to get Mary Magdalene in the bargain.
The Iliad is the greatest novel in world literature. Or, maybe, The Odyssey is the greatest. Hard to decide.
Your podcast recco's have all been good. Thanks for alerting us to this one.
I'm a couple-three episodes in and loving it. Interested to see where it goes! I will say that the wife - the interior decorator; what was her name? - with the grown daughters infuriated me with her idiot choices especially because they were so hurtful to her children. I cannot possibly imagine making the decisions that woman did. How can someone smart enough to amass that much money be such a maroon?!
While interesting,I don’t know if I’ve learned anything here I couldn’t from having analyzed my junk email inbox or watching a few episodes of NBC’s ‘Dateline’
Also, he who mixes brilliant storytelling with preferred principles/received wisdom/the sentiments of the day earns a place in chattering ‘high’ culture’ or posterity, even.
Truth value may be an independent variable
"A guy abstracts away from details and decides she's crazy pretty early, probably, so what's the point."
As I said in the post, the details that would be needed are actually missing, so you might like it. It is in fact easy for anyone to see, very early on, that the woman is being very stupid. I wouldn't say crazy unless you think strong sexual attraction equals crazy, but as I said, the details on that are missing. It was my hypothesis and still is.
"That's unforgivable, rather like changing the plot of Christ's Passion to have the Son of God escape crucifixion and mortal death, and to get Mary Magdalene in the bargain."
Martin Scorsese got away with it in "The Last Temptation of Christ" (by presenting it as an alternative ending before the real ending).
"I read it in the Times as it was released. I was less fascinated by the sociopath John Meehan than by his wife, who inhabits another kind of pathology."
I agree. He was so bad that it became absurd, and the only reason it wasn't comedy was that real people, whose voices you hear, were in danger. That made it melodrama, like in a horror movie when you're thinking "Don't go in the basement!" "Leave the house!"
But we don't get enough analysis of the woman. She's handled so gently -- presumably to get her to keep talking -- that we listeners are feeding on some rather cheap entertainment. She took him back! WTF!!
I read the series first and found it both fascinating and unsatisfying. The funniest line was something like "where other people saw a series of red flags, she saw a parade" - so at least it was clear that the reporter got how completely pathological the wife/dupe was - but in the end, why she was like that was the big mystery and the series didn't even touch on that. At the very least, I would have liked the reporter to ask her, what was going through your head when you heard your boyfriend/husband screaming at your daughter like that? Were you willing to give up relationships with your daughters and grandchildren for this man? You wanted to honor your marriage vows; where does your obligation to your children fit? What does your church say about marriage vows when your partner is abusive and you are afraid he'll kill you.
Listening to the podcast helped a little - the wife's voice sounded very childlike, like someone who was happy to substitute someone else's judgement for her own. At least in my family, that's a function of what church you attend. Some churches preach a faith that depends on suspension of critical thinking - I think that could explain a lot.
But we don't get enough analysis of the woman.
The little fact that this was her fifth marriage (all ending in divorce) was never expanded on by the writer, which strikes me as a glaring omission. Knowing what happened in marriages one through four would probably be revealing. Was there even a mention of the father of her children? Or any of the ex-husbands? If so, I missed it.
For the record, Helen ran off with Paris.
For the record, numbnuts, Alexandros and Paris were the same person. Two names, same person. You can look it up.
Martin Scorsese got away with it in "The Last Temptation of Christ" (by presenting it as an alternative ending before the real ending).
True. But Socorses's film (and Kazantzakis's novel, upon which it was based) were deliberately crafted as alternatives to the canonical treatment, for the purpose of exploring the implications the [possibly historical] alternative ending had for the mystery of faith. In other words, by creating a narrative insisting on the humanity of Christ to the exclusion of His divine nature, is that mystery obviated? Is there any reason at all for faith?
Petersen, on the other hand, altered the canonical ending of the Iliad purely because he wanted a "Hollywood outcome" to the narrative. A reasonably happy ending: boy gets girl and they go off to start their lives anew. Which completely and utterly obiviates and trashes the essential messages and themes of the Iliad, including how we should live and conduct ourselves and find mneaning, given the fundamentally tragic nature of life.
Here at Althouse it is truly all things considered. Lenigan versus the ants even! a great hero's arc story and a great movie: "The Naked Jungle is a 1954 film directed by Byron Haskin, and starring Charlton Heston and Eleanor Parker" (a beautiful redhead).
Nowadays it would "garner" tremendous protest-like attention and loud denunciations from our betters. nevertheless a great tale to introduce to the youngsters in your orbit.
I read it instead of listening.
Near the end, I genuinely laughed out loud at this:
She has concluded that he was some kind of sociopath.
I was struck by the number of pea brained professionals who turned up in the story- the first therapist who took the side of the new boyfriend and told her to cut her children loose....the judge who didn't think a restraining order was called for...the psychologist who told her that her children were not in danger...good grief!
And...Jason Aldean concert!?!?
Not sure if anyone's still reading here but a couple more observations:
1. He showed up for their first date in shorts. That should have been a tell!
2. It seems there's a crap load of money to be made on staging houses.
I just finished listening. Debra drove me crazy. It's not surprising to me that evil people exist and prey on people. But to hear that an intelligent, good-hearted business-woman was so taken in by what seems to be a completely obvious con-man is just frustrating! John was evil, but she was so careless and stupid .... it was unbelievable. I once had a man, on a first date, tell me he had gone to Harvard. Something seemed off about the guy. I called Harvard admissions the next day and asked if they had any record of this person attending. Nope. Done and done. I don't think it's difficult to sense (and to stop) a con in most cases. Her idiocy was maddening. -- Jessica
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