Althouse: "Fremont's Lenin Statue Is Currently Under Siege By Trump Supporters and An Alt-Right Troll."

August 16, 2017

"Fremont's Lenin Statue Is Currently Under Siege By Trump Supporters and An Alt-Right Troll."

The Stranger reports.

134 comments:

mccullough said...: From Russia with Love; 8/16/17, 4:16 PM
mccullough said...: All statues are Ozymandias; 8/16/17, 4:17 PM
harrogate said...: The Pizzagate Guy! I was wondering where his silly ass would turn up next!; 8/16/17, 4:19 PM
tcrosse said...: There's a (headless) statue of Lenin inside the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. The head is frozen in a block of ice.

Lenin in Vegas; 8/16/17, 4:21 PM
Steve said...: A sweet and amusing movie was built on the fall of Lenin statues in East Germany. --- "Goodbye Lenin". That movie portrays the nuances involving both sides of Germany at the time. It helps to reflect on such outcomes of vicious tribalism, and should be remembered at a time when anti first amendment blackshirts wander the streets with clubs.; 8/16/17, 4:24 PM
Bad Lieutenant said...: harrogate said...
The Pizzagate Guy! I was wondering where his silly ass would turn up next!

8/16/17, 4:19 PM

So, Lenin good? Lenin statue good? Lenin statue better than General Lee statue?; 8/16/17, 4:25 PM
Unknown said...: "Germany was a country with a great legacy of literature, music, art, philosophy when it began to fall as mad men took over."; 8/16/17, 4:31 PM
harrogate said...: I shan't be red-baited, my fellow commenter . If I'm not gonna let the crazy Dems do it to me after a year of effort , I'm damn sure not gonna fall for it on a righty blog.

That said, my comment didn't say "Lenin good." I legit had been wondering where that crazy Pizzagate dude would pop up next. It was inevitable that he'd be in the middle of some nonsense soon; 8/16/17, 4:31 PM
mockturtle said...: We're gonna miss ya, Vlad!; 8/16/17, 4:32 PM
mockturtle said...: With all this toppling of statues, someone is likely to get hurt. They'll blame Trump, of course.; 8/16/17, 4:33 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "There's a (headless) statue of Lenin inside the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. The head is frozen in a block of ice."

If I remember correctly, the original plan was to have the statue with the head on -- and ironic, of course. But the critics weren't up for the fun of it and other arrangements were made.; 8/16/17, 4:41 PM
eddie willers said...: Goose...meet Gander.; 8/16/17, 4:43 PM
traditionalguy said...: He has a point. If slavery is the issue, old Lenin worked to d athe more slaves than anyone else in history...Or were they counter revolutionaries called Whites.; 8/16/17, 4:44 PM
Steve said...: Germany had decades of Hegel's spirit of the age, a justification of any act taken against those who oppose that spirit. Madmen find fertile ground where the individual is subservient to a spirit. They also sent Lenin to Russia, to interfere with their politics.; 8/16/17, 4:44 PM
Etienne said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/16/17, 4:47 PM
Diogenes of Sinope said...: We need to immediately start destroying paintings of Confederates and literature about Confederates.; 8/16/17, 4:50 PM
Rabel said...: A las Barricadas!!!; 8/16/17, 4:51 PM
Achilles said...: This is dumb.; 8/16/17, 4:56 PM
Matt Sablan said...: The consequences. They were unexpected.; 8/16/17, 4:57 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: Not a fan of Lenin -- who was indeed a murderous Communist. But, still not a fan of tearing down statues.

Certainly don't want to engage in Leftist tactics for fear of becoming like them.

So...Lenin stays!; 8/16/17, 5:00 PM
Left Bank of the Charles said...: Siege? I do not think the alt-right understands what to do next:

"TAKIYAH THOMPSON: OK. I participated in a march and a rally. And I decided to climb to the top of the Confederate soldiers statue and put the rope around its neck and throw the rope down to the crowd. And the crowd could decide if they wanted to pull it down or not."

According to Wikipedia, the Seattle statue of Lenin had been installed in Poprad, Czechoslovakia (now Slovakia). It was removed after the Velvet Revolution in 1989, and purchased by American. He died in 1994 and his family has been seeking a buyer for the statue. "As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000."

The solution is obvious. Put Vladimir Lenin on the same auction block as Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis, and Roger Taney. The alt-right and alt-left can bid against each other for the right to destroy or preserve. The auction could be done through Althouse Amazon portal, so that our beloved hostess gets a cut.

The Red Square Restaurant in Las Vegas has a proper statue of Lenin. Remember the Kulaks!; 8/16/17, 5:02 PM
wendybar said...: Bahahahaha...The left who cried about RUSSIA for a year, are protecting LENIN statues?? Shouldn't that be the Trump supporters?? hahahahaha....Yes we do live in upside down world....; 8/16/17, 5:03 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: The good people are cheering this, right??; 8/16/17, 5:04 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: (Who is surprised, by the way? Anyone? I posted the list if Lenin statues in America two days ago.); 8/16/17, 5:05 PM
Sprezzatura said...: BTW, folks who go to the link may be wondering if the red paint on the hands is new.

It is not.

IMHO, that additional pigment goes a good ways toward mitigating the absurdity-rating re the existence of this statue in the Emerald City.

Having the statue is still absurd, but the blood on the hands makes it quite a bit less so.

Perhaps we can add blood on the hands of all the statues that were on the wrong side of the war re the continued enslavement of American citizens to other American citizens.

Any takers?; 8/16/17, 5:06 PM
Matt Sablan said...: Lenin still stands.; 8/16/17, 5:06 PM
mockturtle said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/16/17, 5:06 PM
Unknown said...: Ok sure, whatever. Who cares?; 8/16/17, 5:06 PM
Unknown said...: Remember folks, General Lee was worse than Hitler but Lenin is one of the Perfect beings.

Just ask a leftist. Lenin only had the "deplorable" people murdered, and they don't count. Stalin, too. Being a mass murderer is a resume enhancer for the left.

--Vance; 8/16/17, 5:09 PM
tcrosse said...: Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, the statue of Horatio Nelson which stood in the middle of O'Connell St. in Dublin exploded in 1966, evidently on its own because they never caught who did it.; 8/16/17, 5:11 PM
Tommy Duncan said...: The estimated body count Lenin and Stalin accumulated in Russia is 20M. They made Hitler look like a piker. Of course, Mao holds the record estimated at 65M. Pol Pot probably holds the record for the percentage of the population exterminated.; 8/16/17, 5:17 PM
n.n said...: Next on the block: Muhammad, who was the traditional ally of socialists and fascists until he adopted communism, and only after a couple millennium of enslaving whites, browns, and blacks.

Also, Margaret Sanger, #CecileTheCannibal and other female chauvinists of the Pro-Choice Church. And, of course, the institutions that defend [class] diversity, abortion of lives deemed unworthy, and redistributive change, which is surely a leftover from simpler Democratic days.

Perhaps Mandela, whose Hamas vs Fatah-style factional fights were legendary on to themselves but made grand by novel burning tires and leftist reward.; 8/16/17, 5:18 PM
Michael K said...: " Lenin statue better than General Lee statue?"

Don't ask hard questions of lefties.; 8/16/17, 5:22 PM
n.n said...: novel burning tires and leftist reward.

Not unlike the social justice adventures in the Libya. Ukraine, etc. for oil and natural resources programme that conveniently forced catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform, opened a trail of tears, and help leftist interests to disenfranchise native competitors and secure welfare profits. Well, perhaps not Ukraine, where the collateral damage from Obama/Merkel-induced CAIR was mitigated through Russian intervention.; 8/16/17, 5:23 PM
n.n said...: novel burning tires and leftist reward.

They chose. They conceived. They aborted. But, fortunately, no American ambassadors were sodomized.; 8/16/17, 5:26 PM
Unknown said...: "Lenin statue better than General Lee statue?"

No one cares about the Lenin statue. Nice try, but you fail.; 8/16/17, 5:26 PM
Freder Frederson said...: They made Hitler look like a piker.

More than 25 million Soviet Citizens were killed in World War II. So in a little less than four years (and only three years occupying Soviet territory), Hitler killed more Soviet citizens that Lenin and Stalin. And that doesn't even count the slaughter in Poland (where about 20% of the entire population was killed, granted some of those deaths were at the hands of the Soviets).; 8/16/17, 5:29 PM
Sprezzatura said...: BTW,

Not too long ago Althouse rightly mocked the "Keep X-city Weird" thing-y.

Seattle has left those Austin-Portland types in the dust. Being proud of weirdness as a whole city seems quaint and mundane. In Seattle different intra-communities compete for autonomy w/ a mostly low level hostility. You say "Free Ballard", well then FU, we'll "Stick Lenin in Fremont."

If nothing else, cons should appreciate the strong sense of neighborhood autonomy in Seattle, it's like Federalism, but this is local-federalism. So, for cons, it must be even better than the original nationwide version. And, it's power to the peeps! Ha.; 8/16/17, 5:30 PM
Freder Frederson said...: Just ask a leftist. Lenin only had the "deplorable" people murdered, and they don't count. Stalin, too. Being a mass murderer is a resume enhancer for the left.

I am a leftist, and I have never been an apologist for Lenin or Stalin.

You are a lying piece of shit to make such a ridiculous claim.; 8/16/17, 5:31 PM
SukieTawdry said...: During Pride week, they dress the Fremont Lenin in drag.; 8/16/17, 5:35 PM
gilbar said...: fred says:
i am a leftist, and I have never been an apologist for Lenin or Stalin.
imediated after saying:
Hitler killed more Soviet citizens that Lenin and Stalin. And that doesn't even count the slaughter in Poland (where about 20% of the entire population was killed, granted some of those deaths were at the hands of the Soviets).

you keep using that word, apologist. I do no think that word means what you think it means.; 8/16/17, 5:36 PM
tcrosse said...: No one cares about the Lenin statue. Nice try, but you fail.

The places where they do care about statues of Lenin have managed to remove them.; 8/16/17, 5:37 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Sukie,

Ya might as well bring up the bike thing too.

I'm too cool to do it. But someone less cool is destined to do it.

Just get it over w/.

Please.; 8/16/17, 5:37 PM
harrogate said...: This is, after all, a board full of commenters who let Pizzagate guy make them care about "Pizzagate."

And so now they seem to think he can make other care about .... "Leningate?"; 8/16/17, 5:40 PM
Freder Frederson said...: Pointing out that Hitler was not a "piker" compared to Stalin and Lenin is correcting a false statement, it is not defending or apologizing for Soviet communism, Stalin or Lenin.; 8/16/17, 5:41 PM
harrogate said...: In this thread perhaps will emerge the secret of what "really happened" to Seth Rich; 8/16/17, 5:41 PM
Achilles said...: Perhaps we can add blood on the hands of all the statues that were on the wrong side of the war re the continued enslavement of American citizens to other American citizens.

Any takers?

If they weren't already grey I would vote for grey. Or white. Or one white one black. Meh.

The whole thing is stupid and contrived.; 8/16/17, 5:50 PM
Michael said...: I am totally against tearing down these statues in public places. But..... Down with Lenin. Now.; 8/16/17, 5:50 PM
tcrosse said...: Seattle is a center of good, old-fashioned cutthroat dog-eat-dog Capitalism, so is unlikely to feel threatened by a graven image of Lenin. Maybe a statue of Larry Ellison would worry them.; 8/16/17, 5:51 PM
SukieTawdry said...: Sorry, I don't know anything about a bike thing although I think the drag thing is pretty funny. It's certainly an indignity the original Vlad would have found intolerable which makes me smile.; 8/16/17, 5:57 PM
Michael said...: Freder F

Stalin sent 20 million to the Gulag of whom half died. 6 million in the famine of the 30's solely induced by Stalin's actions, the Holodomor. Some estimate 10million. half a million more in the famine of 46.

The estimates of total deaths under Stalin vary wildly from 15 million to as many as 60; 8/16/17, 5:59 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Sukie,

If it's not commonly known, maybe it wasn't so legendary:

https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2014/06/19/the-legendary-fremont-solstice-nakedpainted-bike-ride-is-saturday/; 8/16/17, 6:00 PM
ALP said...: Oh dear Ann, giving The Stranger exposure! I have read that newspaper since the first days of their publication. Its such a weird thing to read now that I've aged out of their main demographic, but it is really good for a laugh. Just when I think they've topped themselves with the most extreme SJW stance, they manage to exceed themselves.

I find it so odd that a 'free' publication completely supported by capitalist, advertising dollars is such an advocate of many socialist, or at least very anti-corporate/capitalist stances.

However, their comment section gives me hope, as half of the comments basically tear them apart.; 8/16/17, 6:12 PM
mockturtle said...: Fredo, another fact about Stalin. He didn't want his POWs to come home after WWII. Eisenhower knew what would happen to them but sent them home to Russia, anyway, because of the Treaty. Stalin considered them undesirable because they were captured and he killed most of them and sent the rest to gulags. Welcome home. :-(

Stalin killed far more than did Hitler. Both were evil villains and how they acquired and wielded power should be required reading by all school children.; 8/16/17, 6:14 PM
ALP said...: That reminds me: I am waiting for The Stranger to call for rounding up anyone of German ancestry and drumming us out of Seattle...you know....to be REALLY SURE the city is 'cleansed' of hate. You can't be too careful - we of German ancestry might harbor a genetic tendency to white supremacist views!; 8/16/17, 6:15 PM
Tommy Duncan said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/16/17, 6:16 PM
mockturtle said...: ALP: Good point! The purgers can't be too careful!; 8/16/17, 6:17 PM
Joe said...: Perhaps they should cut the statue in half down the middle and weld it with a R.E. Lee statue.; 8/16/17, 6:29 PM
Howard said...: Send the Lenin Statue to Venezuela so the people there can tear it down in 10-years.; 8/16/17, 6:33 PM
Birkel said...: What is the natural stopping point for all this?; 8/16/17, 6:35 PM
Howard said...: Does Stalin get any credit for defeating Hitler? Can he subtract Soviet dead murdered by Nazi's from Stalin's own purges total? If so, the piker argument might just fall flat.; 8/16/17, 6:36 PM
Fernandinande said...: Note to self: don't read thestranger.com again.

"The Statue of Lenin in Seattle is a 16 ft (4.9 m) bronze sculpture of Communist revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, completed in 1988 in Czechoslovakia, and displayed there until it was taken down shortly before the Revolutions of 1989. It was bought by an American in 1993, who moved it to Washington in the US. Since 1995 it has been up for sale and on display in an outdoor retail property in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle."

It's on private property and it's for sale.; 8/16/17, 6:36 PM
Howard said...: Birkel: What is the natural stopping point for all your take everything to the extreme theoretical end of time? Never. It's your only argument, but you can be proud that you use it to so little effect, people feel sorry for you. Ni Night, dear.; 8/16/17, 6:39 PM
Sprezzatura said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/16/17, 6:43 PM
Birkel said...: Howard,
Deny all these jack asses the attention they crave and I doubt this goes much further. Would you like to wager the odds that happens?; 8/16/17, 6:44 PM
Sprezzatura said...: "I am waiting for The Stranger to call for rounding up anyone of German ancestry and drumming us out of Seattle"

I guess you'll need to keep reading it to find out when that happens.

Maybe this also answers your quandary re how they can maintain readers and therefore collect ad dollars.

Their readers are all Germans waiting for a heads up re when The Stranger calls for putting Germans in gas chambers. As Mock notes, this is a palpable threat in Seattle, so ya must keep reading, and therefore seeing the ads.

Anywho, lets get back to the dumb libs who fuss about Fake Problems like getting rid of Roger Taney statues at night in Baltimore because, as Althouse notes, the public isn't ready for such a terrible offence in the light of day.

Carry on.; 8/16/17, 6:44 PM
Sprezzatura said...: offense; 8/16/17, 6:45 PM
Birkel said...: That people on these boards cannot see why I am driving the point that I am driving troubles me not.

You think I am one-dimensional because you want to think that.; 8/16/17, 6:46 PM
harrogate said...: Birkel,

I disagree with almost everything you write and yet it never occurred to me that you were one-dimensional.

Also, for the most part I think you play pretty fairly. You have your points to want to argue. That's a three dimensional human who is that way.; 8/16/17, 6:51 PM
John henry said...: Maybe it is time to sic the loonies of one side or the other on Montclair College. Montclair has been the academic home of Professor Grover Furr who is very vocal that Stalin never killed anyone, was a saintly pacifist and has been viciously maligned by history.

According to Furr, Stalin was a saint. And, BY GOD! if you take a class from him you had better believe in Stalin's saintliness. Or at least convince Prof Furr that you do.

I know about Furr because I was in a socialist discussion group with him for a year or so back in the oughties. He is so crazy that batshit thinks he gives it a bad name.

And he is responsible for educating youth?

Start with Wikipedia and go to his website if you want to know more.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 6:59 PM
Sprezzatura said...: "I disagree with almost everything you write and yet it never occurred to me that you were one-dimensional."

Not even after he typed "purple elephant" for the ten thousandth time?; 8/16/17, 7:00 PM
David said...: "Washington and Lee will naturally also be renamed."

Piker! The injustice will not be expunged until the entire Commonwealth of Virginia is renamed. Along with all those other Confederate states.; 8/16/17, 7:00 PM
harrogate said...: Most all of us repeat ourselves too much on this blog.

I suspect it's really why Ann loves posters like Laslo and Titus so much.

Not everyone has that kind of fire in the imagination tho. Or at least if they do, they don't channel it onto blog comments as well as others do.; 8/16/17, 7:02 PM
Birkel said...: harrogate,
I try to be fair, even going so far as typing handles as the people who wrote them want (except the overly long ones) and almost never responding when people childishly call names or ascribe to me things which have no basis in fact. I don't criticize misspellings or grammatical errors either.

It's a personal ethic at which I am sure I fail often.; 8/16/17, 7:05 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Harr,

I'm sure ya meant it as a compliment to Althouse when you suggested that her two standout commenters are the ones who jabber about hogs and thigh gap.

But, it was actually the exact opposite.

Especially, if ya know what it used to be like in these threads.; 8/16/17, 7:07 PM
Birkel said...: PB&J

You and the other Leftists still haven't considered what I was trying to get you to query. Your unpacked assumptions need a good enema.; 8/16/17, 7:07 PM
John henry said...: A bit of Russia trivia that, for all the discussion about President Trump and the Russians you will never see. I know, I searched and found no stories or even blog posts about it.

Remember Bill Browder? The hedgefund guy who was at the meeting with Trump Jr and the others in June last year? Magnitsky's business partner? He has gotten a lot of press in the past month or two.

His grandfather, Earl Browder, has not. His grandfather was Joseph Stalin's personal representative and on his payroll for about 20 years as head of CPUSA. Earl was a pretty slimy character in his own right. There's a good Wikipedia article on him and plenty more that has been published about him.

Bill Browder's father Felix, Earl's son, was born in Moscow in 1927.

So why is Bill Browder so closely tied to Russia? I suppose it could just be a coincidence. Or not. I know that nobody else will ever ask the question.

I do not think we should pin the grandfather's sins on the son. Armie Hammer should not be reviled for the sins of his grandfather, Armand Hammer, for example. If Bill Browder had made his fortune in India, Argentina or anywhere else, his grandfather would not be worth mentioning. But Russia? It is too much of a coincidence not to notice. At least for me.

That I find both Stalin and Browder to be interesting historical characters in no way means that I support them. Vile, despicable people who deserve to burn in Hell, But both very interesting.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 7:10 PM
mockturtle said...: Howard asks: Does Stalin get any credit for defeating Hitler? Can he subtract Soviet dead murdered by Nazi's from Stalin's own purges total? If so, the piker argument might just fall flat.

I give Zhukov more credit than Stalin.; 8/16/17, 7:11 PM
harrogate said...: I definitely remember the old days in these threads, tho I'm not an original.

And yeah, point taken about my examples.

There was also Betamax not too long ago, who I remember was a definite favorite of hers.; 8/16/17, 7:11 PM
John henry said...: Blogger Tommy Duncan said...

The estimated body count Lenin and Stalin accumulated in Russia is 20M.

I've seen figures as high as 40mm. That is folks killed outright in the Lubyanka cells and worked to death in the Gulag. I've also seen as low as 20mm.

Think about that. The question of how many Stalin murdered has a range of 20mm.

Yet he was kindly "Uncle Joe" as FDR and the govt presented him to the American people. The NY Times has never returned the Pulitzer that William Duranty got for convincing the world that the Holodomor in Ukraine (Around 6mm murdered) never took place.

“Any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda. There is no actual starvation or deaths from starvation but there is widespread mortality from diseases due to malnutrition.”

(as reported by the New York Times correspondent and Pulitzer-prize winner Walter Duranty)

Few people today, or even in the past, know who Stalin was or have any idea of how many he murdered.

Hitler and his National Socialists with their measly 12mm murdered were, as you say, pikers.

100mm murdered by socialism in the last century. Give or take 10-20 million. (2-5 Wisconsins) and nobody gives a damn.

Never forget.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 7:23 PM
John henry said...: Studebaker and GM should get a lot of credit for defeating Hitler. Also the merchant marine seamen who died by the thousands running them through the German wolfpacks to Russia.

And, it's on the tip of my tongue but I can't quite remember the name of the American engineer who designed the T-34 suspension and made it one of the best tanks in WWII.

Absent American largesse, The Germans would have probably beaten Stalin. Or at least forced him to abandon the eastern half of Russia.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 7:33 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Oh, we're talkin' old cars. Is this where I, again, note that I have a 1935 Packard, so that I can bond w/ you temporally experienced commenters that dominate the threads of this antiquated form of tubes-ery?; 8/16/17, 7:37 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Old...er...I mean golden years people love to see a young dude in a fancy old car from the mid thirties.

Way more cool to them then when ya roll in some awesome modern day machinery.

IMHO.; 8/16/17, 7:42 PM
Laslo Spatula said...: harrogate said...
"And yeah, point taken about my examples."

Ouch.

I am Laslo.; 8/16/17, 7:42 PM
John henry said...: I knew it would come to me.

Christie

John Henry; 8/16/17, 7:43 PM
exhelodrvr1 said...: "Does Stalin get any credit for defeating Hitler?"

They were allies at the beginning of the war.; 8/16/17, 7:45 PM
Crimso said...: I was just using the example of George H. Thomas on FB. There is a prominent equestrian statue of him in D.C. Leave it up (Union war hero!)? Tear it down (owned slaves!)? Decisions, decisions.; 8/16/17, 8:30 PM
Howard said...: exhelodrvr1: Sure, but we were neutral after the Nazi's came to power and after the war started. Republicans wanted to stay out. Standard Oil, GE, Kodak, Coke, Ford, IBM, etc. all made money selling to Hitler's Reich.

It was that commie FDR who helped the commie Stalin crush the white supremacists Nazi scum bags. Well known and hated commie FDR also helped the commie Mao crush the conquering slaughtering rapist Empire of Japan.; 8/16/17, 8:31 PM
Michael K said...: Howard is on a roll. Next he'll be singing the National'; 8/16/17, 8:37 PM
harrogate said...: Laslo,

God damn it, that was a compliment; 8/16/17, 8:38 PM
Howard said...: John Henry: Thanks for providing background on Browder's family. Seems he was perfectly happy to get rich with Putin, then turned on his oligarchic comrades who ran him out of mother Russia. We definitely don't live in a binary world.; 8/16/17, 8:42 PM
Howard said...: I would sing Dixie too if I wasn't tone deaf.; 8/16/17, 8:43 PM
mockturtle said...: Hang onto your books, citizens. They will be the next target of the purge. Volumes will disappear from library shelves leaving nothing but Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison.; 8/16/17, 9:13 PM
John henry said...: Blogger Howard said...

Republicans wanted to stay out. Standard Oil, GE, Kodak, Coke, Ford, IBM, etc. all made money selling to Hitler's Reich.

Not just republicans, everybody wanted to stay out. Many people still remembered the senselessness of US getting into WWI and saw no sense in a rerun.

As late as the end of November 1941 American opinion was 70-80% against US involvement in the war. FDR had to maneuver Germany into declaring war on us. "Shoot on sight" orders for neutral US warships to fire on any German ship. Bombing and depth charging of German subs. Occupation of Iceland. Providing money guns and other war materials to Britain.

Read why the Germans declared war on us sometime. Practically nothing to do with Pearl Harbor.

MR. CHARG D'AFFAIRES:

The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression.

On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German sub-marines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines.

Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.

The German Government therefore establishes the following facts:

Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war.

The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.

It was FDR's war. He and his cronies were the only ones in the US who wanted us in it.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 9:32 PM
John henry said...: I just noticed that the "Sink on sight" order was issued on 9/11/41.

Exactly 60 years before the WTC attack.

What an odd coincidence.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 9:35 PM
harrogate said...: Sounds like it's not just a lot of citizens at the time, but John Henry himself who thinks the United States should not have entered WWII.

My grandfather was in a unit that liberated a camp. He translated their stories to his fellow American soldiers. That was his job. What I lost remember about him is the stories he told me about what he heard first hand, from what the Nazis had done.

Self-proclaimed Nazis fighting for the honor of confederate icons? And not a one of these fuckers know real history. They don't know Polk's journal, or the debates over the Mexican War, or Bleeding Kansas, or ultimately the evil of the South, the evil for which Lee stood, no matter what our history books tried to tell us about how "honorable" he was.

In the end, "heritage not hate is a joke" and everyone knows it.

People who actually care to know history? It's there to read and see and explore. We don't need statues honoring these bastards in the public square.; 8/16/17, 9:44 PM
harrogate said...: My apologies for the mechanics errors; 8/16/17, 9:47 PM
Fabi said...: Leave John Lennon's statue alone!; 8/16/17, 9:50 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Hang onto your books, citizens. They will be the next target of the purge. Volumes will disappear from library shelves leaving nothing but Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison.

Which is why I have always been skeptical of digital books. Too easy to edit, change, alter and erase.

Take Huckleberry Finn and how the tight assed puritans want to rewrite the book and eliminate any references to everything that MAKES the book a classic that addressed the social issue of ITS day.

Too easy to be altered and unless you have a hard copy, you would never ever know.

I have the same misgivings about digital photography.; 8/16/17, 9:50 PM
harrogate said...: Dust Bunny Queen,

Do you have any idea how much scholarly work has been done on that book? How thoroughly archived, footnoted, contextualized, circulated it is ? How ubiquitously accessible it is?

You talk like you know that book. But , do you ? Not if you're likening it to a statue of a confederate general, you don't; 8/16/17, 9:53 PM
Crimso said...: And then there's that pesky statue of Joe Wheeler in the U.S. Capitol. Leave it up (General in U.S. Army during Spanish American War)? Tear it down (Confederate cavalry general, and a fairly poor one at that)? Decisions, decisions.; 8/16/17, 9:59 PM
mockturtle said...: DBQ says: Which is why I have always been skeptical of digital books. Too easy to edit, change, alter and erase.

I posted the other day that, a few years ago, I corrected a historian who had posted on his web site a John Adams quote which I knew was wrong. I had an old volume containing the quote and told him. He said he got the quote from 'digital archives' but after investigation he discovered my source was right and his was wrong. Scary. I assume they do things to the Bible, too. History books, especially, should be carefully preserved--maybe hidden. When I sold my house I gave away most of my books, unfortunately. But at least some are still stored.; 8/16/17, 10:09 PM
steve uhr said...: Now I know what a gram dab is. Learn something new every day.; 8/16/17, 10:12 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: You talk like you know that book. But , do you ? Not if you're likening it to a statue of a confederate general, you don't>

Harrogate. You talk like someone with some crippling reading comprehension issues. I likened nothing to a statue. I am discussing the issue of digital books, digital media and how easy it is to be altered with out any hard copy of the original publication.

As mockturtle indicates, a reliance on digital output is subject to repeating gross errors. People who quote on line sources such as Wikipedia are also being tricked into repeating distortions and falsehoods. If you don't have the original source you will never know the truth.

NOW....if you want to compare this issue to the erasure of the history of the Civil War, not matter which side your sentiments lie on, or if you even have a side....then you are correct.

Destroying books in the aim of "correcting" the past. Altering history because what happened is distasteful, censoring thoughts to conform with the latest correctness and "right thinking" are all a part of the same degradation of thought, paucity of intellect and something which which I suspect you are quite familiar with.

Thinking is haaaaard. Dealing with conflicting thoughts is haaaaard. So.... erase, alert and destroy. Right?; 8/16/17, 10:17 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Edit......Erase....alter and destroy.; 8/16/17, 10:19 PM
Drago said...: Harrogate: "We don't need statues honoring these bastards in the public square."

And the lefties are already calling for removing Washington, Jefferson, etc from our public spaces. Get ready for "Sharpton DC".

But I'll be Harrogate is against that.....currently....until he "evolves" along with all the other leftists.

Revisionism is in the DNA of every leftist.

But only every single one, every single time and every single place.; 8/16/17, 10:26 PM
Matt Sablan said...: We've already had someone in Chicago call for removing Washington from public spaces.

Man. The consequences were unintended.; 8/16/17, 10:39 PM
Matt Sablan said...: Honestly, the more I think about it, the less of a joke The Great Renaming Act is turning out to be. Let's just do it all at once, be done with it, and move on as we live in City #1151 or Town #551.; 8/16/17, 10:40 PM
John henry said...: Blogger harrogate said...

Sounds like it's not just a lot of citizens at the time, but John Henry himself who thinks the United States should not have entered WWII.

The vast majority of Americans did not want the US in WWII. This was not because they were a bunch of National Socialists and believed Hitler was right. They just did not see any dog that the US had in this fight. Lots of complicated national reasons too. Some large proportion were only a generation or two removed from Europe and they had left for a reason and wanted nothing more to do with Europe. In other cases, Irish-Americans didn't want to help England. German-Americans still had family in Germany. There are whole books written about why the overwhelming feeling was to stay out.

FDR was elected to his 3rd term in 1940 on an explicit promise not to get us involved in another European war.

"I have said this before, but I shall say it again and again and again: Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." Campaign speech in Boston Oct 1940.

Even after we did get in, after an initial flood of patriotic enlistments, WWII was fought mostly by draftees. 60% or so of all US servicemen in WWII did not join voluntarily.

Most thought Hitler and his National Socialists were a bunch of vicious thugs. Just like most governments in Europe for the past 1000 years. That was not seen as a reason for US involvement.

Perhaps you should read some history instead of relying on propaganda about "The Good War" as many seem to see it.

As to John Henry? Yeah, I do not see that we had a dog in the fight. Yes, I have seen film of the camps and talked to survivors and read their stories. It was horrible. If that is the logic you are going to use for US involvement, I take it you would have supported us going to war with Russia? After all, their camps were every bit as horrible and there were 2-4 times as many killed.

Japan attacked us. We had no choice there, though better decisions 10-20 years earlier might have prevented the attack. Or maybe not. We wargamed an attack by Japan similar to the 1941 attack in 1925.

Once Germany declared war on the US in Dec 1941, we had no choice but to declare war back. But make no mistake, we had been at war, undeclared and unauthorized and not widely known, since 1939.

Had we actually been neutral in 1939-41, instead of just saying we were, it is extremely unlikely that Germany would have ever declared war on us.

Wilson also lied us into WWI and ran on a campaign slogan of "He Kept us out of war" in 1916. then he promptly got us into it.

Had we stayed out of WWI, the two sides would likely have settled and Hitler, National Socilism, Lenin, Stalin et al and WWII would never have happened. It would be a much better world. (Probably)

John Henry; 8/16/17, 10:42 PM
Steve said...: George Washington wore a long wig, tights, and long decorative coats. Was he hinting at some gender fluidity? Would taking his statue down offend the LGBT crowd?; 8/16/17, 10:43 PM
John henry said...: Another question for Harrogate:

Would you support US military involvement in the Congo war? Somewhere around 6mm civilians have died in that war in the past 5-10 years. In other words, give them a few more years and they'll get up to National Socialist numbers.

And yet few people even realize there is a war going on there. Are you one?

If we should have gone into Europe to save the 12mm from the camps, why not to save the 12mm (eventually) in the Congo? Why not to save the folks in Venezuela?

And so on.

Give us your moral justification for dragging the US populace, kicking and screaming, into WWII.

If you can.

John Henry; 8/16/17, 10:50 PM
Big Mike said...: Thomas Jefferson was the founder of the Democrat Party. I'm perfectly okay with tearing down the Jefferson Memorial. Hell, I'll help if they let me. If they chisel Lee's face from Stone Mountain then let's dynamite Jefferson off Rushmore. Leaves us with a Federalist and two Republicans.; 8/16/17, 10:56 PM
William said...: My family fought on the northern side. I'm not supportive of demonstrators who wave the Confederate flag, much less wave some derivative Nazi flag. That said, there are statues in the public square of far worse men than Robert E. Lee......I was trying to identify the most revered asshole in history. My choice would be Napoleon, but there are so many. Cromwell moved the Irish off the arable lands of Ireland, massacred many and sold many more to work as slaves on the sugar plantations in the Indies, Lots of Cromwell statues and roads in Great Britain. Teddy Roosevelt wrote an admiring biography of him.......Not much to recommend Martin Luther either. And people go to churches that bear his name. What if the Indians demand that we take down Sherman statues because of the way he fought the Indian wars? It's one thing to treat Confederates that way, but it's a war crime to use such tactics against the Indians.; 8/16/17, 11:24 PM
themightypuck said...: Pas d'ennemis a gauche pas d'amis a droit.; 8/16/17, 11:59 PM
Anonymous said...: John said...

"Read why the Germans declared war on us sometime. Practically nothing to do with Pearl Harbor."

Huh. So just a strange coincidence that they declared war on December 11, 1941. But I believe you, because governments never try to put any spin in their declarations of war.; 8/17/17, 12:05 AM
n.n said...: The Great Renaming Act ... City #1151 or Town #551.

Also, Citizen #24342WC, #983312BT, #12934HB, etc. under the [class] diversity and selective-child regimes, where individuals live and die by Choice and are interchangeable clusters in the collective by order of color and sex, and now gender.; 8/17/17, 12:49 AM
exhelodrvr1 said...: "We've already had someone in Chicago call for removing Washington from public spaces.

Man. The consequences were unintended."

And impossible to predict.; 8/17/17, 6:06 AM
Rusty said...: "People who actually care to know history?"

Yes I do. Like when we were attacked by the Japanese the bulk of our war fighting material went to England and Russia. The first country our troops invaded was French Algeria. Meanwhile the Japanese were working their way up to invading Australia. Which had no forces at home to defend themselves. Despite what MacArthur was told.
My Uncle liberated BerganBelsen. If FDR had offered Jewish refugees asylum it might have mitigated some of the carnage. As it stood Hitler felt free to destroy a people no one else wanted.

Let the statue of Stalin stand. I want a place I can take my grand children when they're old enough to understand the meaning of right and wrong and point to that statue and tell them, "this is what evil looks like. Never forget. Anyone that claims that they are going to lead you into a better life is a lying sack of shit. They're going to kill everything you care about."; 8/17/17, 6:18 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: hiccup*; 8/17/17, 6:19 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Removing statues is like burning books.; 8/17/17, 6:21 AM
gspencer said...: The statues come down, leaving empty pedestals.

I have great concern about what might be placed on top of those pedestals. How many new statues of Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin could the country endure?; 8/17/17, 6:43 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
Removing statues is like burning books."

Well, yes and no. The peoples of Eastern Europe had Communism - and the ugly statues of Communist leaders - forced on them and so were happy to get rid of them. Can't blame them for taking them down as soon as they could.

But in the US, Lenin statues are useful. Seeing one alerts you to the fact that you are now in a hive of leftist idiots.; 8/17/17, 7:23 AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...: How many new statues of Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin could the country endure?

8/17/17, 6:43 AM

Oh, there will be plenty of statues of Obama as well. Complete with halo.; 8/17/17, 7:25 AM
Matt Sablan said...: "I have great concern about what might be placed on top of those pedestals."

-- Abstract, geometric art with no meaning is the only answer.; 8/17/17, 7:41 AM
Robert Cook said...: Unknown provided this quote above:

"Germany was a country with a great legacy of literature, music, art, philosophy when it began to fall as mad men took over."

The mad men could not have taken over without the cooperation, support, or compliance of the existing government and the public.; 8/17/17, 8:42 AM
Known Unknown said...: "-- Abstract, geometric art with no meaning is the only answer."

All art has meaning.; 8/17/17, 8:43 AM
Matt Sablan said...: "All art has meaning."

-- Pay checks have meaning.; 8/17/17, 8:46 AM
Crimso said...: "The mad men could not have taken over without the cooperation, support, or compliance of the existing government and the public."

Worth noting Richard Evans' speculation that had you assembled a group of mid-19th century political observers and historians, and told them that in the mid-20th century a European country would engage in an attempt to kill all the Jews, they would not have been surprised. Until you told them it was Germany, and not France.; 8/17/17, 9:45 AM
mockturtle said...: Cookie reminds us: The mad men could not have taken over without the cooperation, support, or compliance of the existing government and the public.

How true. And I often wonder how many Germans ever read Mein Kampf. Had they done so they would certainly have known Hitler's intentions. He wasn't subtle about them.; 8/17/17, 10:19 AM
John henry said...: Mockturtle,

A LOT of Germans read Mein Kampf and as you say Hitler was pretty clear about his aims. For those that didn't, tens of millions more heard his speeches at rallys and on the radio. He was just as clear in those too. There might have been some hermits living in a cave in teh alps that didn't know what Hitler intended. Everyone else knew. He was also an honest politician. He did not say one thing and do another. He did, or tried to do, exactly what he said he would.

I wonder how many Americans have read Mein Kampf (available through Ann's portal)About 90% of it was much the same as Hillary's platform or pretty much any other progressive politician.

Free education, workers rights, free healthcare, redistribution of wealth and a whole host of stuff.

The Wisconsin Historical Society has some info on Phil LaFollette's shortlived National Progressive Party. A German newspaper editor and Hitler supporter attended one of LaFollette's speeches in 1938. When he got home he said, in a German magazine, that it could have been made by Adolf Hitler himself.

the problem was not that people didn't know what Hitler's platform was. The problem was that they did know and they wanted all the free goodies promised.

I suggest that if you haven't already, you, and anyone else who wants to talk about Hitler and National Socialism read the book. Read Mussolini's short book/long pamphlet "The Doctrine of Fascism" (1936?) He explains exactly what Fascism is and what it stands for. (Capital F Fascism, the Italian political party/ideology)

I also recommend reading Marx. Especially Capital. A bit of a slog but not as bad as many people would have you believe.

John Henry; 8/17/17, 10:56 AM
Robert Cook said...: "The statues come down, leaving empty pedestals.

"I have great concern about what might be placed on top of those pedestals. How many new statues of Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin could the country endure?"

What if we don't put up statues of any politicians or military personnel? What if we put up statues only of educators, scientists, philosophers, doctors, educators, and so on...those who actually contribute to humanity's knowledge and enlightenment?; 8/17/17, 11:38 AM
Bilwick said...: This is great. I had just posted an online comment stating that if there were statues of Mao, Fidel, Che and Ho anywhere in the US, the Left would be okay with that. I just thought it a far-out conceit of mine that would be such statues in the US. But there IS a statue of the grand-daddy of them all, Lenin! Beautiful.; 8/17/17, 2:23 PM
Bad Lieutenant said...: Howard said...
Does Stalin get any credit for defeating Hitler? Can he subtract Soviet dead murdered by Nazi's from Stalin's own purges total? If so, the piker argument might just fall flat.
8/16/17, 6:36 PM

World War II would not have occurred had Stalin not agreed to The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. No points are awarded.; 8/17/17, 2:51 PM
Jim at said...: "Certainly don't want to engage in Leftist tactics for fear of becoming like them."

No. A thousand times no.
Playing nice and honorable has gotten us absolutely nowhere.

The only way - the only way - these leftist thugs will stop what they're doing is if they're crushed under the same rules they wish to apply to everybody else.

The time for being nice is long, long past.

Make them bleed.
Hard.; 8/17/17, 3:51 PM