First, stereotyping a huge slice of America as misogynist bigots is unfair and impairs understanding. Hundreds of thousands of those Trump supporters had voted for Barack Obama. Many are themselves black, Latino or Muslim. Are they all bigots?I agree: Tolerance is a liberal value. But that's why an awful lot of those in this country who call themselves liberals ought to be referred to as so-called liberals.
Second, demonizing Trump voters feeds the dysfunction of our political system. One can be passionate about one’s cause, and fight for it, without contributing to political paralysis that risks making our country ungovernable.
Tolerance is a liberal value; name-calling isn’t....
२४ फेब्रुवारी, २०१७
Nicholas Kristof begs Trump-haters to "please don’t practice his trick of 'otherizing' people into stick-figure caricatures, slurring vast groups as hopeless bigots."
"We’re all complicated, and stereotypes are not helpful — including when they’re of Trump supporters."
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
८८ टिप्पण्या:
Someone ought to write a book about them. They could call it "Liberal Facism" or something.
Althouse, try as hard as you might you will not get me to read Nicholas Kristof. There are things even lab rats won't do.
Tolerance is a liberal value, but not a progressive value.
Don't call them liberals. Don't call them progressive. Call them for what they are, totalitarian leftists
"Liberals" aren't liberal. They are Progressive, which is entirely different. Nothing I'd like to do would impact them. I just want people to left alone, which is a classically liberal belief.
Nick should talk to George Packer, Tom Friedman, Rachael Maddox, etc.
But that's why an awful lot of those in this country who call themselves liberals ought to be referred to as so-called liberals.
I feel like Althouse is getting more straightforward and contrary in her retirement. I like it!
Professor, with all due respect you conflagrate "liberal" with "progressive" when they are distinct and different.
The labeling (i.e., misogynist, bigot, Islamophobe, homophobe etc.) is anti-liberal, but pure progressivism. A liberal would teach, discuss, persuade, tolerate, and avoid labels. Progressives would play to emotion by labeling in a bigoted manner, which is what you saw in the last election season (plus several before that. Remember how Governor Mitt Romney was a racist? The second rising of Hitler?).
One of the biggest reasons Trump got elected was progressives and their leadership calling anyone that disagrees with them racist, sexist, homophobe, bigots for the past 30 years. Ordinary people are fed up with this identity politics crap.
Jonathan Smith said...
Professor, with all due respect you conflagrate "liberal" with "progressive" when they are distinct and different.
The labeling (i.e., misogynist, bigot, Islamophobe, homophobe etc.) is anti-liberal, but pure progressivism. A liberal would teach, discuss, persuade, tolerate, and avoid labels. Progressives would play to emotion by labeling in a bigoted manner, which is what you saw in the last election season (plus several before that. Remember how Governor Mitt Romney was a racist? The second rising of Hitler?).
Yet another of those things "that I wish I had written."
Also something I wish I had written; this very short (too short) column by Jonah Goldberg in which he simultaneously takes on Trump's dumb comment that the press has become an enemy of the American people, as well as Mika Brzezinski's careless comment that the business of today's media was to control what people think. While Jonah was on such a run of clear thinking on the topic, I sort of wish he had gone on for 10,000 more words:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445204/mika-brzezinski-journalism-gaffe
Of course, "liberal" in the USSA can mean either Classical Liberal, which equates to libertarian or Amerikan Liberal, which equates to Hillary-type Socialist or Sanders-type Marxist. Calling the latter "progressive" is like calling Obamacare "affordable."
"Liberals" wrecked the term "liberal" with their loony and intolerant programs and attitudes so they have rebranded themselves as "progressives." Same loony and intolerant programs and attitudes with a new name. "Otherizing" anyone who won't knuckle under to the "progressive" onslaught is a feature and not a bug for most "progressives." Kristof is going to get himself "otherized" for his half-hearted call for at least some measure of civility.
From the article:
My hometown, Yamhill, Ore., a farming community, is Trump country, and I have many friends who voted for Trump. I think they’re profoundly wrong, but please don’t dismiss them as hateful bigots.
I have noticed an occasional difference in attitude between my liberal friends who have rural roots and those that don't. The ability to demonize one's political opponents falls down the more you actually know them in person.
One meme that comes from the left is the idea that to approach Trump with anything other than opposition is to normalize him. This gets extended to Trump supporters in the form of mini-screeds against engaging with them at all. Don't be friends. Don't stay friends. Don't discuss. Don't even argue. Arguing treats their views as normal.
Which means that what is "normal" is to shun. Shun! Shun the enemy.
Who is callling the so-called liberals liberal? Do they call themselves liberals? I think most of them, the so-callled liberals, regard being callled a liberal a slur.
i think he comes up with these ideas on his train ride from scarsdale.the town that so reflects his world view
It's self-labelling. Some Liberals felt that the term 'Liberal' was worn out with bad associations, so they chose 'Progressive', which has some of that old Bob LaFollette mojo. Nobody calls progressives Progressive except so-called progressives.
It's a liberal value. It's not a Democrat value.
I call myself a liberal, and I agree with Kristof. My wife is a "progressive", and she does not agree.
Oddly, 8 years ago I voted for Obama and she voted for McCain. Nothing like a convert.
Many are themselves black, Latino or Muslim. Are they all bigots?
Yes, all the black, Latino and Muslim Trump voters are bigots.
Why else would the NYT dweeb mention their race, language or religion?
"First, stereotyping a huge slice of America as misogynist bigots is unfair and impairs understanding." Sorry, Nick. Why do you think fairness and understanding have anything to do with progressive politics? It's about power, buddy. Get with the program, or we're gonna have to send you down to Berkeley to get reeducated. (I was gonna say send you down to the countryside, in good Maoist fashion, but of course being among the deplorables won't help the cause.)
What if you never voted for Obama? Does that make you a bigot?........Why is Keith Ellison the proper antidote to Trump's anti semitism? Are questions like this a manifestation of bigotry?
I think it's good that at least some Liberals (or Progressives or whatever you want to call them) are finally calling for a degree of civility.
Too bad no one will listen to him.
I will wait until Chuck, who is so called, weighs in.
Kristof understands that the monster he has encouraged to be monstrous may not be well received by the voters who matter.
Kristof will avoid mention of PURPLE ELEPHANTS until such time as he cannot resist.
Note to Kristof. Leftys are not liberal.
Remember how Governor Mitt Romney was a racist? The second rising of Hitler?
Actually I don't. Could you provide some links to back up your assertion?
It is amusing, but expected, that Althouse refers to an article that contends that liberals be more tolerant, and the majority of the comments expound on how awful liberals are.
There are at least a hundred such think pieces about how we shouldn't otherize Trump voters.
I'm waiting for a Kristoff think piece that empathizes with people who are actual victims of hate and intolerance:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/23/alleged-shooter-to-indian-american-victims-get-out-of-my-country.html
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/higher-rates-of-hate-crimes-are-tied-to-income-inequality/
I agree we have to be careful not to label a person because of how they voted, but as Priebus pushed aside Bannon's hand as he tried to touch him, some times liberals are forced to say back off this policies they are attacking democratic ideals we believe in.
Of course, "liberal" in the USSA can mean either Classical Liberal, which equates to libertarian or Amerikan Liberal, which equates to Hillary-type Socialist or Sanders-type Marxist. Calling the latter "progressive" is like calling Obamacare "affordable."
Jersey Fled said...
I think it's good that at least some Liberals (or Progressives or whatever you want to call them) are finally calling for a degree of civility.
A degree.
The NYT dweeb clearly exhibited his own bigotry, but it was the bigotry accepted and expected among his fellow racist socialists, so he probably didn't even realize it.
@ Freder Frederson
Let me help your understanding.
It is amusing, but expected, that Althouse refers to an article that contends that liberals are intolerant but should be less so, and the majority of the comments expound on how intolerant liberals are, as revealed by the need of Kristof to write such an article asking so-called liberals to stop acting as they are.
You are welcome.
Kristof is a good guy and I'm glad he wrote what he did. Also Michelle Obama ' when they go low, we go high.' That doesn't mean not going after Trump and the elected republicans, imo.
Interesting to me, that you don't have anything to say about the nastiness of your right wing commenters :-)
..."please don’t practice his trick of 'otherizing' people into stick-figure caricatures, slurring vast groups as hopeless bigots."[...]
"We’re all complicated, and stereotypes are not helpful — including when they’re of Trump supporters."[...]
First, stereotyping a huge slice of America as misogynist bigots is unfair and impairs understanding.
That's mighty white of you, Nick.
The comments are hilarious.
Modern Progressives are not liberals in any meaningful sense. Liberals support the liberal order, and pretty much the only people who do that these days are conservatives.
What the Progs don't realize is that there are lots of people who voted for Trump because they really didn't think much of Hillary Clinton. They really didn't like Trump much either, but he was less worse in their minds.
The in-your-face left does not understand that people need space in order to change their mind. Throwing public tantrums and calling everyone racist, etc. does not provide that space and simply reinforces the decision of those folks who voted for Trump.
But a whole bunch of leaders of that wing of the left prefer Trump is in charge so they can profit from their rhetoric and rabblerousing.
"...Trump's dumb comment that the press has become an enemy of the American people..."
Trump didn't say that, Chuckles. Another lie promoted by Chuck, who enjoys spreading unfounded slurs about ten year olds.
They aren't liberals. They are progressives. Classical liberalism lives on in libertarianism and the Tea Party but not in either major political party. Sad.
Angel-Dyne said...
"First, stereotyping a huge slice of America as misogynist bigots is unfair and impairs understanding."
That's mighty white of you, Nick.
I heard a nasty rumor that the NYT is following the lead of Time magazine and will be issuing an edition aimed at adults.
National politics is Coalition politics. FDR started a huge new one using his Rich New York elite persona dedicating his Regime to the white American middle class. It that lasted 40+ years until Nixon's paranoia resulted in it being was taken out and replaced by the Baby Boomer hoard's distrust of adults after LBJ's Viet Nam debacle. And now DJT has ressurrected the FDR coalition.
Oddly, 8 years ago I voted for Obama and she voted for McCain. Nothing like a convert.
2/24/17, 9:27 AM
I have to wonder what great successes of the past 8 years turned your wife into a progressive.
sunsong: Interesting to me, that you don't have anything to say about the nastiness of your right wing commenters [passive-aggressive-izing emoticon punctuation].
Maybe she will once you finish all the introspection on your plate. 'Til then, no dessert for you.
The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!
Get it right Chuck. He called out specific entities that retail Fake News. Similar to Obama ranting about Fox all the time, because it was the one network that reported on his actions without the hagiography of the the ones mentioned above.
It is amusing, but expected, that Althouse refers to an article that contends that liberals be more tolerant, and the majority of the comments expound on how awful liberals are.
It's less ironic than you think. Kristof is pointing out that many liberals act like malignant jerks, and that is apparently consistent with the experience of the Althouse commentariat.
"It is amusing, but expected, that Althouse refers to an article that contends that liberals be more tolerant, and the majority of the comments expound on how awful liberals are."
Kristof is taking liberals to task precisely because they are behaving badly. Even he sees what is obvious to us deplorables.
It is amusing, but expected, that you are utterly blind to it. That means you'll ignore what he says, thus doing your part to ensure GOP victories in '18 and '20. Priebus should send you flowers.
Thanks for providing the original quote, Mike! I don't expect any degree of honesty from Chuck, who enjoys spreading unfounded slurs about ten year olds.
And I agree with Trump in that I feel like that media sees me as an enemy, someone they hate. They despise my faith, my heterosexuality, my dislike of the federal leviathan. They hate the way I vote and they sneer at me from their perch. Have you ever seen Katie Couric's face scrunch up in disgust when she interviews a Republican? That's the look they direct at us ordinary Americans. They openly hated the Tea Party and lied about it in every broadcast. They edited black people out of the picture in order to suggest we were all white people. They treat me like an enemy therefore they are my enemy by their own declaration and the sooner a free independent press replaces them the better it will be for all of us.
Fabi said...
"...Trump's dumb comment that the press has become an enemy of the American people..."
Trump didn't say that, Chuckles. Another lie promoted by Chuck, who enjoys spreading unfounded slurs about ten year olds.
“The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @CNN, @NBCNews and many more) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American people. SICK!” Trump tweeted. The post was deleted shortly after.
He revised his tweet 16 minutes later to include more news organizations in his category of so-called fake news: ABC and CBS.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-tweet-media-enemy-american-people-235150
So Fabi you tell me what part of the press is not within Trump's "FAKE NEWS media." The answer should be revealing, if TrumpWorld's acceptance of real media is distilled down to Breitbart, Hannity and Laura Ingraham. And InfoWars?!?
And as for your repeatedly bringing up the Barron Trump/autism story, you should have learned by now that every time you attempt to attack me with that, I will remind everybody that I never made any such allegations. Ever. And that I have only remarked about the existence of the story that was made all the more newsworthy by two things. One was Donald Trump's mystifyingly stupid comments on vaccines and autism (fueled further by his mysterious meeting with vaccination-nutjob Robert F. Kennedy Jr.); the other was the Trump family's outsized legal action against a YouTube user who is himself autistic and who posted a video analyzing Barron Trump's video-recorded behavior for the stated goal of answering charges that the boy was ill-behaved.
And now, because you attacked me, and I rightly defended myself, this becomes yet another in a growing line of Althouse comments pages where this subject has gotten more discussion. With every indication that "Barron Trump" and "autism" will be forever linked on Google search term populations.
The sooner you stop talking about it, the sooner I will stop responding to it.
I guess the wi-fi is back up at our lifelong Republican's nursing home.
Although deeply annoying, I sort of miss his obsessions with Trump's "dumbness" and Detroit's clean elections. I guess we will be hearing more about how misunderstood Mika was in the next few days.
Fabi, "lifelong Republican" Chuck would fit in well at CNN or MSNBC.
Mike, exactly. I see the media as my enemy because that is how they see me. I didn't ask for the fight, but since the Left is so determined to bring it, what choice do I have?
Nyamujal: There are at least a hundred such think pieces about how we shouldn't otherize Trump voters.
I'm waiting for a Kristoff think piece that empathizes with people who are actual victims of hate and intolerance:...
Implying that no Trump voters are ever "actual victims of hate and intolerance". Got news for you, Nyamujal. That's why some of them became Trump voters. (Not that Kristof gets that, either.)
This is the second time you've felt the need to post a link to an article about the shootings in Kansas. I'm sure most if not all commenters read the news this morning and are already aware of this murder and attempted murders. Do you have a point you'd like to expand on here?
You're a sad and sick man, Chuck. You misquoted Trump and now you're trying to crawfish your way out of it. More dishonesty from Chuck.
Once again, you -- not me -- have repeated an unfounded slur about a ten year old boy. I never mentioned his name or the rumored affliction, but you couldn't wait to reintroduce both. You even admit why you continue to do so -- search hits.
You're a vile and disgusting motherfucker.
Francisco D said...
I guess the wi-fi is back up at our lifelong Republican's nursing home.
Although deeply annoying, I sort of miss his obsessions with Trump's "dumbness" and Detroit's clean elections. I guess we will be hearing more about how misunderstood Mika was in the next few days.
You relentless fucking asshole. Remember; you and some others made some stupid claims about Detroit elections (Trump-type stupid, baseless, hyperbolic claims), and I shot them down and pointed out that even Michigan Republicans found no evidence of any broad-based fraud of any kind. You and others were picking up little snippets of headlines about "more votes counted than voters registered" and presumed some sort of massive scheme reminiscent of pulp fiction.
Then, because you didn't like the facts, you attacked me personally for somehow having failed to do my job as a Republican Party poll challenger on election day. Except that I didn't even volunteer this year. That was your second whiff.
Now, with your third strike, you have seemingly placed me as a supporter of Mika Brzezinski, when if you had read the link I posted to the National Review, you'd have seen that it was Jonah Goldberg scolding her for what was clearly a wrong-headed misstatement.
And hasn't Kristof contributed to the general hysteria? https://goo.gl/k1um79
"Maybe she will once you finish all the introspection on your plate. 'Til then, no dessert for you."
Some people are missing the self awareness gene.
Francisco D: I guess we will be hearing more about how misunderstood Mika was in the next few days.
No doubt.
So, I take it that today's rule (as opposed to last week's) is that normal sane people don't work themselves into a lather over someone's clumsily-worded speech?
That's the beauty of the Mika gaffe: I listened to the clip, and it was pretty obvious she didn't mean the literal content of what came out of her mouth. She spoke clumsily, truncating and eliding several thoughts/sentences. I knew what she was trying to say. (Not that the press doesn't think that they should be controlling people's opinions. But they sure as hell wouldn't say that in public.)
I suspected that the same people who jumped all over Trump and the Sweden thing would turn around and defend Brzezinski's stepping all over her own...tongue, but didn't follow-up. Is that indeed what happened?
Fabi said...
You're a sad and sick man, Chuck. You misquoted Trump and now you're trying to crawfish your way out of it. More dishonesty from Chuck.
Once again, you -- not me -- have repeated an unfounded slur about a ten year old boy. I never mentioned his name or the rumored affliction, but you couldn't wait to reintroduce both. You even admit why you continue to do so -- search hits.
You're a vile and disgusting motherfucker.
That isn't how the game is played, sport. Anybody who knows Trump knows that. You poke Trump, he hits back twice as hard and ten times as dirty, and if he can get his lawyers into it to threaten litigation, he will.
Don't ever think that you can lay a baseless charge that I "attacked a ten year old boy" and I will just lay down and take it. Every time you do that, I will make certain that I am clearer than you are. I didn't attack anybody. I didn't make any allegations. I have repeated, generally with a direct hyperlink, what is in the press, and just yesterday, I repeated -- without any attempted contradiction -- what Barron and Melania Trump's lawyer said in a written statement.
Matter of fact, I think I'll do it again. Quoted in US Weekly, here is part of the statement from Trump family lawyer (and Lena Dunham's, and Hulk Hogan's lawyer) Charles Harder: "This law firm represents First Lady–elect Melania Trump and her 10-year-old son, Barron Trump. A video was posted at YouTube recently speculating that Barron might be autistic. He is not...The video regarding Barron Trump has been removed, and the person who posted it has retracted it and apologized for it, at the same YouTube page."
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/melania-trump-threatens-lawsuit-over-barron-autism-video-w452617
Now I suppose that you are going to attack me, for quoting Barron Trump's own lawyer on the subject of concern to you, without questioning it or contradicting it.
On a positive note, Chuck, someone has to felch the anal creampies of the GOPe -- and you're the best man for the job!
Kristof is a good guy and I'm glad he wrote what he did. Also Michelle Obama ' when they go low, we go high.' That doesn't mean not going after Trump and the elected republicans, imo.
Hey, how did Michelle Obama's husband handle reporters he didn't like?
How did Obama view voters who didn't vote for him? Something about bitterness, guns, and religion, right?
Angel-Dyne said...
...
I suspected that the same people who jumped all over Trump and the Sweden thing would turn around and defend Brzezinski's stepping all over her own...tongue, but didn't follow-up. Is that indeed what happened?
Not me. I obviously didn't give Trump a pass. Neither does NeverTrumper Jonah Goldberg. And I wouldn't give Mika a pass. Nor did Jonah give her a pass.
You say something risibly stupid, when it is your job to say smart things, and you should rightly get hammered for it.
sunsong said... [hush][hide comment]
.....
Interesting to me, that you don't have anything to say about the nastiness of your right wing commenters :-)
Sunsong, Freder, R?V and others.
I'll say it again.
Put a Trump/Pence bumper sticker on your wifes car, see what happens Ten for $1.69, free shipping on e-bay.
And, about the two Indians being shot by the crazy guy. How many cops assassinated lately by your side?
Tolerance is a liberal value. Sadly though, today's (so-called) liberals no longer hold liberal values. I as a conservative have a good deal in common with classical liberals; I have almost nothing in common with modern in-quotes liberals.
@freder http://lmgtfy.com/?q=romney+nazi
It seems that Intolerance and name-calling ARE liberal "values".
Kristof: "Tolerance is a liberal value."
No, calling oneself tolerant is a liberal value.
Chuck is extremely sensitive about his role as a "Republican" poll watcher in Detroit.
Any reference brings out the four letter words and straw man "debunking" claims. He really, really wants us to believe that
Detroit is the paragon of clean elections.
Methinks the man doth protest too much.
I wonder what is up there? Payoffs?
Kristof really should do a self-examination first. Really.
Where was Kristof before he noticed that the hate was no longer working? Unless there's a mea culpa embedded somewhere in the article it sounds pretty cynical to me.
Francisco D said...
Chuck is extremely sensitive about his role as a "Republican" poll watcher in Detroit.
Any reference brings out the four letter words and straw man "debunking" claims. He really, really wants us to believe that
Detroit is the paragon of clean elections.
Methinks the man doth protest too much.
I wonder what is up there? Payoffs?
You miserable fuckheaded troll. I wasn't the subject of some innocent "reference," to which I was being overly sensitive. No; because you don't know much of anything, you made the doubly-dreadful mistake of accusing me of negligent performance of duties as a poll watcher, when you (a) don't know what I do, and (b) when I didn't even work the 2016 election.
And so now you triple-down on idiocy by mentioning possible "payoffs."
Blogger bgates said..."@freder http://lmgtfy.com/?q=romney+nazi"
LOL. I don't expect you'll get a response.
Chuck said...
Francisco D said...
Chuck is extremely sensitive about his role as a "Republican" poll watcher in Detroit.
Any reference brings out the four letter words and straw man "debunking" claims. He really, really wants us to believe that
Detroit is the paragon of clean elections.
Methinks the man doth protest too much.
I wonder what is up there? Payoffs?
You miserable fuckheaded troll. I wasn't the subject of some innocent "reference," to which I was being overly sensitive. No; because you don't know much of anything, you made the doubly-dreadful mistake of accusing me of negligent performance of duties as a poll watcher, when you (a) don't know what I do, and (b) when I didn't even work the 2016 election.
And so now you triple-down on idiocy by mentioning possible "payoffs.
Chuck,
You occasionally seem like a decent fellow. Might I suggest a simple apology for attacking Barron, and Greta might be appropriate and would make you feel much better?
"Do you have a point you'd like to expand on here?"
Yes, talking about otherizing people, Trump did that throughout his campaign, and it didn't really bother the people who voted for him. As a first generation immigrant, I've always admired the ability of America to assimilate people. The American promise is simple and value based - play by the rules, believe in the core values outlined by the founders and you too can be American. This came under attack during the 2016 campaign. Trump's brand of ethno-nationalism defines what it means to be American purely in terms of ethnicity. Trump's attacks against judge Curiel, and Major Hasan's parents confirmed, at least in my mind, that his nationalism is zero-sum, aggressive, nostalgic and draws on race or history or religion to set Americans apart from Mexicans, or Muslims, or anyone else who disagrees with his vision. This rhetoric has real consequences. It tends to produce intolerance and feeds doubts about the virtue and loyalties of minorities. It has emboldened some people, like the mosque shooter in Quebec or that asshole in Kansas.
Being snarky about Trump supporters is "intolerance and hate" but preventing legal permanent residents from returning home, otherizing immigrants, Muslims, and trans folk isn't? There's a huge difference there, one that I hope you can see.
Tolerance is a "small-l" liberal value. But it is not noticeable among current, politicized, "cap-L" Liberals.
"The American promise is simple and value based - play by the rules, believe in the core values outlined by the founders and you too can be American."
"Play by the rules" starts with coming here legally.
Liberalism is an divergent ideology. Progressivism is a monotonic function. Progressive liberalism is a degenerative ideology.
Conservatism conserves a state. American conservatism is classical liberalism tempered by Judaeo-Christian religious/moral philosophy.
It's ideological physics.
Judge each ideology by the content of its principles.
As for treatment of behaviors: normalization when there is a redeeming value to society and humanity, rejection when it cannot be reconciled with moral and natural imperatives, and tolerance of everything else.
"Implying that no Trump voters are ever "actual victims of hate and intolerance". Got news for you, Nyamujal. That's why some of them became Trump voters. (Not that Kristof gets that, either.)"
It's probably economic anxiety. If only the shooter had a good paying factory job...
I'm being facetious, but perhaps we can frame this in terms of actual harm done. Do bad articles about Trump voters cause more harm than hastily crafted EO's that cause chaos in airports? Does a bad Matt Yglesias tweet cause more harm than a wide ICE dragnet that hauls in innocent people? I don't know, you tell me.
The New York imes got, and printed, letters saying Kristof was wrong.
Nyamujal: The American promise is simple and value based - play by the rules, believe in the core values outlined by the founders and you too can be American. This came under attack during the 2016 campaign.
Oh please. The "core values outlined by the founders" have been under attack by the left for the last half-century.
Trump's brand of ethno-nationalism defines what it means to be American purely in terms of ethnicity. Trump's attacks against judge Curiel, and Major Hasan's parents confirmed, at least in my mind, that his nationalism is zero-sum, aggressive, nostalgic and draws on race or history or religion to set Americans apart from Mexicans, or Muslims, or anyone else who disagrees with his vision.
If you don't like ethno-nationalism, then don't spend decades playing identity politics and spitting all over the founding peoples and culture of this country, trying to memory-hole their history, blaming them for all the problems in the world, and militantly framing insistence on assimilation, or immigrating legally, as "racism".
Btw, if it's "unAmerican" and "racist" to prefer a European-majority America, and conduct immigration policy toward that end, why isn't it unAmerican and racist to prefer a European-minority America, and conduct immigration policy toward that end? (The latter describes current policy.) Both ends look equally "racist" to me.
(Trump is not an ethno-nationalist btw. I guess simply not hating on whitey and not pandering to non-whites makes one a "white nationalist" these days, lol.)
It's probably economic anxiety. If only the shooter had a good paying factory job...
I'm being facetious...
Oh, hilarious.
...but perhaps we can frame this in terms of actual harm done. Do bad articles about Trump voters cause more harm than hastily crafted EO's that cause chaos in airports? Does a bad Matt Yglesias tweet cause more harm than a wide ICE dragnet that hauls in innocent people? I don't know, you tell me.
Bit of a broken record, aren't you? To repeat myself, you are once again implying that no Trump voters are ever "actual victims of hate and intolerance", just "victims" of insulting tweets and articles. How on earth do you know that? Either you think that no one who voted for Trump has ever been a victim of "actual" hate and intolerance, or you don't believe that "actual" acts of hate and intolerance ever get committed against "deplorable" types.
Is getting beaten up or murdered for, say, being white at the wrong time and the wrong place "more harm" than being called a "sand nigger"? Does being murdered by an multiply-deported illegal immigrant gang-banger in a "sanctuary city" count as "more harm" than being swept up in an ICE dragnet? I don't know, you tell me.
I was a reluctant Trump voter and I still have my reservations about him, but he's growing on me. I was at my bible study today and one reading was about how only God can put it all together and judge someone. 1 Cor 4:1-5. The pacifist/psychologist in the group used this point as an opportunity to dump on Trump personally - he's a bad father, needs adulation, big liar etc. I couldn't take it anymore and said that I thought his comments were inappropriate and I was not attending the study to listen to individuals being attacked and judged. I guess I'm just totally fed up with TDS - you just can't get away from it and the Trump Deranged just won't stop.
Too late, Nick.
Besides, tolerance is a noun, not a "value!" E.g., the Obama Administration tolerated in silence the worlwide persecution of Christians by Muslims. Or, the Obama Administration not only tolerated Iran's threats to "wipe Israel of the face of the earth," but rewarded them with billions of dollars and lifted sanctions despite the threats.
Did tolerating things like that represent the values of the Administration? Well, maybe. I might have to rethink my examples. Liberal Democrats do have a high tolerance for awful.
"If you don't like ethno-nationalism, then don't spend decades playing identity politics and spitting all over the founding peoples and culture of this country, trying to memory-hole their history, blaming them for all the problems in the world, and militantly framing insistence on assimilation, or immigrating legally, as "racism".
"
Who's spitting all over the history and culture of this country? In what way is a honest examination of this country's past, an examination that includes the unsavory bits, playing identity politics? You know, an unadulterated view of the past can be enlightening. Take some of the current rhetoric used by Trumpkins and replace Muslim or Latio with Irish, Poles, Italians, or the Chinese, and you basically have a Henry Cabot Lodge speech from the 1890's (http://racehist.blogspot.com/2010/03/more-from-henry-cabot-lodge-on-race-and.html).
I wouldn't be quick to conflate ethno-nationalism and identity politics. They're not the same thing. I understand that ethno-nationalism seeks to exclude the "out" group from the polity, and is zero-sum and aggressive, whereas at the root of identity politics is simply the desire to be treated as equals. It's a response to being identified as the "other" and being shit on constantly. BLM as a movement has a very simple demand - that black lives must be valued as equally as white lives. Could you point out to anything in the BLM manifesto that seeks to advantage blacks at the expense of whites? Major Hassan's parents made the ultimate sacrifice and I'm sure all they wanted was to be considered American, and not have the candidate of a major political party define them solely on the basis of their faith or culture. Could you point out to anything that Khizr Khan said at the convention that sought to advantage Muslims over Christians?
"Btw, if it's "unAmerican" and "racist" to prefer a European-majority America, and conduct immigration policy toward that end, why isn't it unAmerican and racist to prefer a European-minority America, and conduct immigration policy toward that end? (The latter describes current policy.) Both ends look equally "racist" to me."
I don't care if America is a European majority or minority country. This is such a strawman.
"To repeat myself, you are once again implying that no Trump voters are ever "actual victims of hate and intolerance", just "victims" of insulting tweets and articles. How on earth do you know that? Either you think that no one who voted for Trump has ever been a victim of "actual" hate and intolerance, or you don't believe that "actual" acts of hate and intolerance ever get committed against "deplorable" types."
They're called statistics. The FBI compiles them. If you have data on violence committed against Trump supporters, please feel free to share them. I bet they're an order of a magnitude lower.
"Is getting beaten up or murdered for, say, being white at the wrong time and the wrong place "more harm" than being called a "sand nigger"? Does being murdered by an multiply-deported illegal immigrant gang-banger in a "sanctuary city" count as "more harm" than being swept up in an ICE dragnet? I don't know, you tell me."
You have a greater chance of being murdered by someone of your own race than by an illegal. I'm a legal immigrant, and it really was quite fucking hard to take the legal route, so I don't have a lot of sympathy for illegal immigration. But my chances of being the victim of a hate crime are way, way higher. Illegal immigrants don't scare me. A white guy at a rough bar who looks at me suspiciously because he thinks I'm muslim is a greater threat to my personal safety TBH.
FullMoon said...
...
Chuck,
You occasionally seem like a decent fellow. Might I suggest a simple apology for attacking Barron, and Greta might be appropriate and would make you feel much better?
An apology is not owed; I didn't "attack" a-n-y-b-o-d-y. I don't need to "feel much better;" my need is to be right. If I did apologize for some emotional reasons unrelated to the facts, my many enemies and critics on this blog would use it against me forever. And they'd be wrong, on every dimension.
I am criticized for basically one and only one reason here; it is because I criticize much of Trump's communications. After I voted for him. And after I have supported some of Trump's more notable actions (Sessions, DeVos, Gorsuch, Mattis, Mulvaney, etc).
" my need is to be right."
Yep. It sure is. William Kristol has the same need.
That's why he is fast becoming entirely irrelevant. He - and you - just can't admit you were wrong and that the people you think of as inferior might be reading the political tea leaves much more accurately than you. Kristol would have preferred that Hill win so he could have spent the next four years blaming the deplorables for her presidency and reading them out of the GOPe.
It's not about facts with such "lifelong Republicans" nor is it about what is best for America It's all about their injured pride and ego.
Chuck,
Get real.
You are criticized here because you are an obvious liar and extraordinarily offensive with your vulgar ad hominem rants.
The American promise is simple and value based - play by the rules, believe in the core values outlined by the founders and you too can be American.
That never was even criticized by Trump.
It was the ones who came here illegally, who specifically didn't "play by the rules" who were castigated, rightly.
I don't use the word "liberal" any longer to describe the left side of our politics, because the LAST thing they are is liberal. For many, it's their way or the highway.
Honest question: is Kristof really worried about stereotypes, or worried that progressives are destroying themselves with their rhetoric?
Nyamujal,
That's complete BS. Major Hasan's parent *started* the deal by appearing in a political rally opposing Trump.
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