What I'm looking for is commentary on Melania's saying not just a prayer, but The Lord's Prayer.
It's what got me up out of my comfy chair and live-blogging the rally. And as I laid me down to sleep last night, I thought I had done with the issues of the day, but I just had to bring up one last thing: "Why did Melania say the Lord's Prayer?"
I had my answer, and it's certainly not because she's a Christian, and The Lord's Prayer is the form of prayer that Jesus presented as exactly right. And I don't believe Donald Trump's assertion that he "didn't know Melania was going to be saying The Lord's Prayer."
I think it was deliberate bait to get Trump antagonists to attack her, to have her attacked for saying The Lord's Prayer. But I am not seeing the attacks, so congratulations for everyone that had the sense not to take that bait. Even on Twitter, a search for Melania Lord's Prayer turns up no complaints about the use of the specifically Christian prayer — maybe, given the words of the prayer, a lot of people don't recognize its Christianity — and the problem of making non-Christians feel like outsiders. I do see a few things that imagine other people objecting:
Melania Trump recites the The Lord's Prayer.
— Constantine (@Constantine2353) February 19, 2017
Liberal reaction: pic.twitter.com/tpcgeC33fj
But where are the liberals whose reaction justifies that mockery? I'm not seeing them. Maybe the zealotry over separating church and state is not what it used to be.
Perhaps that means my answer to my late-night question is wrong. Maybe Melania said The Lord's Prayer because it would be so well-received by some people. Example:
Was great to hear First Lady Melania start your rally with the Lord's Prayer! We love her! @FOTUS @POTUS pic.twitter.com/3a2hSNMLy5
— Terri Burfield (@TerriDBurfield) February 18, 2017
I'm not going to nail it down. I'll ask you:
पोस्ट्स
१८८ टिप्पण्या:
American civil religion is no friend of Biblical Christianity. That said, I like a good deal of what Trump is doing and I would understand evoking the faith for political gain. Being pro-Christian is a softball that Obama has served up.
Jesus would definitely have recited the Lord's Prayer for all of Pilate's rallies.
I am pretty sure that if you say The Lord's Prayer to bait your enemies you are doing it wrong.
She had her turn at the mic, and she should be able to say anything that she wanted to without her being analyzed as to why she said it. It's a nothing-burger.
The normal reason for opening anthems, pledges and prayers is to get the crowd to shut up and pay attention. It's a transition move into an event from milling around.
It relies on virtue signalling within the crowd. There are a thousand enforcers.
So it's not great.
Offend us all if you dare, is the move.
Perhaps the left is intimidated in that they see they'd be worse off raising the issue in the circumstances they find themselves in.
How about she is not a Christian, and it is the only prayer she knows?
She was undoubtedly raised an Atheist. There is no evidence she came to religion after arriving in the U.S. Donald Trump's understanding of Christianity is rudimentary at best (he apparently doesn't believe one of the central tenets of Christianity--that we continually need forgiveness)
I don't think Melania loves the spotlight. So I'm guessing she just thought," what can I say that won't be criticized, that will be nice, and will be over fast?"
The two big Christian prayers always reminded me of the way a kid pitches an appeal to each of his two (hetero) parents.
The Lord's prayer is more about right and wrong, and obedience to God, a provider.
Hail Mary is more a paean to a mother's unconditional love.
Why did Melania say The Lord's Prayer?
Plagiarism.
Most of the criticism I have seen is the same as FF, that is they think themselves to be able to discern the innermost thoughts and spiritual condition of people they have never exchanged so much as one word with.
I am rejecting all your options, because my intuition is that Melania did it because she is scared stiff and that is what Christians do when they are scared stiff. Unless they are Catholics, who generally may go with the Hail Mary.
The attacks on Barron have to have worried her, I imagine she is genuinely scared that her husband will be shot, and even if he isn't, it is clear that many people want to get rid of him in any way possible.
And when you did not grow up in the USA, with all its many safeties that most of us take for granted, you have a very different mental map of the results of social/political dissension as severe as we are now seeing.
So Melania is scared stiff.
Nothingburger.
Maybe Melania said The Lord's Prayer because it would be so well-received by some people.
The Trumps know their audience.
Susan said: I am pretty sure that if you say The Lord's Prayer to bait your enemies you are doing it wrong.
Amen to that!
The Lord's Prayer at a political rally is an odd thing, but people do odd things.
Rhhardin and maybee both give reasonable explanations. Who knows? She doesn't look either that Machiavellian or that religious. At any rate give her credit for making a successful gesture........ I don't think the libs have quite figured out how to dump on Melania and Ivanka quite yet. Give them time, though. They're quite good at this sort of thing.
@Freder Frederson - It is vastly more likely that she was raised a Catholic. Eastern Europeans tend to be more religious, in my experience, than those in the west. Neither you nor Professor Althouse can apparently cognize the possibility that Melania might actually be a Christian or might have thought that starting with a prayer was a good idea. As a boy in Alberta, we started every school day with the Lord's Prayer, and some 50 years later there still aren't special camps for non-believers in Alberta.
Althouse is now thinking like Steve Bannon.
I would not be surprised on bit if Steve-o was an Althouse blog reader. That is in his spare time while he is completely disrupting D.C.
"I would not be surprised on bit if Steve-o was an Althouse blog reader." Now, Begley, don't you go busting my anonymity. I take that back. I am not, repeat: not, Steve Bannon.
There's music for the lord's prayer. They could do it at ballgames.
I am totally going with Maxed Out Mama on this one.
Also, there seems to be a conflation of "religious" with "acting in a way that comports with my stereotypes of behavior that is religious."
Lets see if I can make this clear. Paul the Apostle, who was personally confronted by Christ after he rose from the dead and after Christ is the most important person in regards to Christianity who ever lived, wrote that he struggled to do what he should and to not do what he shouldn't, and failed.
I'm all for doing anything that might rattle any cage of any lefty.
The answer is she wanted to say something brief without being accused of secret plagiarism.
Liberals have practically made it a tenet to mock Christians.
Trump continues to capitalize on that error.
@Bob Boyd
Kind of like Fox News. Ailes figured out there was a niche market of about half the nation. Except Christians are more than half of the nation. True, a lot of Christians aren't necessarily pro-Trump. But the leftist protesters are doing their best to convince them they should be.
I'm sure that answer #1 had something to do with it. Attacking Ivanka has failed miserably. Attacking Melania would fare worse, as a handful of female comics (alleged comics) have discovered to their distress.
(Note to Megan McArdle, I realize that Ivanka is taller, lovelier, wealthier, married to a richer man and more observant Jew, and carries herself better in public. Try to keep the jealousy in bounds and stick to your econometrics, please.)
"And when you did not grow up in the USA, with all its many safeties that most of us take for granted, you have a very different mental map of the results of social/political dissension as severe as we are now seeing."
This is well said, and I would only add that I fear Americans have become far too complacent regarding the "many safeties".
It is vastly more likely that she was raised a Catholic.
Her father had quite a good and high level job. I doubt he would have been in that position if he was not a Communist party member. Which by definition means he was an Atheist.
again, i return to this provocative Mahatma Gandhi Quote:
"My greatest weapon is mute prayer."
cool how the champion of non-violence reveals his most dependable "weapon".
And I can imagine our newest First Lady finding herself in unceasing prayer by necessity: for her family -- all families. For her exuberant nation -- for all nations: Unceasing, mute prayer.
That she would anchor this event with the fundamental one of western civilization, one that most all attending could actively participate in, is a wholesome grounding.
it is good medicine! Reminds me of my understanding of Hopi sand paintings: they are created to heal, placing the sick person in the center of it restores him to the Beginning Time that is always right here/now, the sick having gotten sick by forgetting that, lured out and away into regular linear/human time, unmoored from their True Source and substance.
You go, Mrs. Trump. May we all be rightly grounded by the most high good.
Also, its OK to be a Christian, as long as you concentrate strictly on the aiding the poor and taking in aliens part and disregard all the sexual morality issues by saying you can't judge lest you be judge. And you cannot seek to express your religious believes in public lest someone get sad feelz.
I am totally going with Maxed Out Mama on this one.
@ retail lawyer: Me too. Melania has to be freaked out and scared stiff. Scared for her family and herself.
She probably can't even imagine how in the world she ended up as the First Lady of the United States. How to handle it and how not to blow it up and embarrass herself, her husband and her adopted country. How to deal with the personal attacks against her, her child and her family, not to mention the actual fear of someone being hurt, killed or assassinated.
The hatred being hurled at them is out of control. The stress must be horrific.
I would pray too!!!
Oso Negro said: As a boy in Alberta, we started every school day with the Lord's Prayer, and some 50 years later there still aren't special camps for non-believers in Alberta.
Alberta is in the Canadian flyover country.
Being from Slovenia, its likely that any early religious indoctrination (if any) would have been Eastern Orthodox.
The Lord's Prayer comes straight from the boss so it's not controversial among the many different branches of the faith. Maybe that's why they chose it.
Lords Prayer seems fairly generic when you think about it.
What is specifically Christian about it, anyway?
Yahoo news leads with President Trump misstating something about Sweden. The usuals are calling him poopy-head, while Trumpers are citing worlds highest rape statistics percentage wise. Now, every converstion among low info voters about how stupid Trump is will be countered with the Muslim rape and crime info
Is Trump playing them again, or does he just get lucky with this stuff?
I'm old enough to remember when we said the Lord's Prayer every morning in school. The Catholics dropped out after "evil", but the Jewish kids either said it like Protestants (most of them) or stayed silent.
I asked a good Jewish friend why he said the prayer ... "'Cause Jesus was a good Jewish boy and if it was good enough for him it's good enough for me." Haven't heard anything better in well over 50 years.
What is specifically Christian about it, anyway?
That it was said by Jesus.
Freder, not true about communist being atheist. There were true believers, far and few between, and pragmatic communists. Those were the people who were communist for the jobs and bennies.
Ron, Slovenians are overwhelming Roman Catholic.
MLK Jr, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson, being men of the Cloth, could not possibly object.
AA: But I am not seeing the attacks, so congratulations for everyone that had the sense not to take that bait.
Is our liberals learning?
MaxedOutMama: And when you did not grow up in the USA, with all its many safeties that most of us take for granted, you have a very different mental map of the results of social/political dissension as severe as we are now seeing.
Interesting point. (I'll pile on even though three or four people have already said this.)
The media, liberals, progressives, lefties et al have got much smarter in deciphering Trump's actions. They are beginning to focus on the signal and ignoring the noise. Melania's prayer was noise.
One could be a Party Member and keep one's faith underground, Feder.
It's pretty obvious that Trump knew what she was going to do, why did he lie about it? To appear less staged, less pandering I suppose. It came across as odd, disjointed. Poor Melania to be used so.
Let's face it, it's like being in college today. One writes to get the A, not out oneself do the teacher uses you as an example or is hounded off campus.
Why? Perhaps she thought it was an appropriate thing to say since she remembered it from her childhood and didn't require a thousand drones to prepare for everything about it. Panic in Washington, If Barron can run the Colorado campaign what are the rest of these million drones doing? Be gone you pestilence from the swamp. A wave of his magic twitter wand. Government is 1% of the size it is now, we're back to 1801 with 2,000 people in D.C. mostly butlers for the rich and famous, and congress meeting every two years as they are elected. At 1% budget balances itself, and the debt takes a decade to pay off. Can't come to soon. "What are all these people doing? Asks the new CEO?"
"I've been talking to my angel, and he said that it's all right."
--Melissa Etheridge
My dad and other Catholics used to leave public school during the day to go to Catechism.
MaxedoutMama has a really good perspective that I would tend to overlook. As a mother Melania is more concerned for her kid than herself and her family next. The left is obviously violent and unhinged. That has to scare her.
Congratulations lefties you are succeeding at terrorizing women and children. No, we won't let you have power back because of that.
Expanding on M.O.M.'s thought, here's your Sunday morning doom-'n'-gloom from Richard Fernandez:
If Trump is overthrown by the Deep State in a year, he's unlikely to be the last. If neither faction will suffer itself to be governed by the other, whoever succeeds Trump can expect his term to be short. America could have its own period of the 26 presidents. That will be good news for the Barbarians, waiting at the edge of the Baltics, in the South China Sea, and on Europe's borders, ready to move in.
Rome's Third Century crisis did not end well. The new normal was not a return to the Golden Age, but the end of it. It resulted in a landscape with a broken internal trade network and a patchwork of locality. America's own Third Century, which began so hopefully in 1976, is now heading to a place no one could have foreseen. There is no road back to the past; there never is. All that is on offer is a choice of murky futures.
I think the reason Melania isn't being attacked by the left is that she's seen as Trump's victim, not his ally. She's a sympathetic figure.
Dammit.
Richard Fernandez
I blame Blogger.
Well done Melannia. You invited Christ's people to join in prayer. That excludes no one, except for the self excluded.
OTOH, how shocking The Lord's Prayer is said on a Sunday.
"It is vastly more likely that she was raised a Catholic. Eastern Europeans tend to be more religious, in my experience, than those in the west."
It depends which Eastern European country you are talking about. Poles are very devout, in part because Catholicism was intertwined with nationalist resistance to the State. (The same phenomenon was true in Ireland for centuries.) Czechs are very secular. I'm not sure how religious Slovenians are as a rule.
I think MaxedOutMama's observations are excellent. Trump isn't religious and she might not have been - but given what she is facing, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that prayer was entirely sincere. It's not just the hatred of strangers that must be daunting - many people in her world, people she considered friends, have turned on her and her husband or are too afraid of being blacklisted from chic Manhattan parties to come out in her defense. A NY Times reporter called her a hooker. Parents at her son's school now object to Barron sitting in the same classroom with their precious. When you are surrounded by sharks, turning to God is very understandable.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Hopefully most of us, even those who have other beliefs, can rally around "Lead us not into debt."
If that's the version she used.
Of course, "trespass" is also timely.
Unknown said...
I think the reason Melania isn't being attacked by the left "
Well, except for being accused of being a hooker and having her accent mocked at an awards show.
Of course, by the standards of the left, that counts as "not being attacked."
"We've only jeered at her a little!"
We also don't know what's in her heart.
As a Christian, it's refreshing. And yes, I did not go to church today. Hypocritical, I know.
Freder Frederson said...
Her father had quite a good and high level job.
Car salesman:
She is a daughter of Amalija (née Ulčnik) and Viktor Knavs, who managed car and motorcycle dealerships for a state-owned vehicle manufacturer.
What is specifically Christian about it, anyway?
That it was said by Jesus.
Ah. But Jesus, himself, wasn't Christian. He was called Christ and the people who later....after his death....who followed his teachings and established a religion around him were Christians.
It's not just the hatred of strangers that must be daunting - many people in her world, people she considered friends, have turned on her and her husband or are too afraid of being blacklisted from chic Manhattan parties to come out in her defense.
Yes, the hatred from the left must be a shock to anyone, especially to her child.
I thought it was pitch-perfect -- especially with her thick accent. Well done!
"the reason Melania isn't being attacked by the left" Yeah, sure, like with the friendly "Rape Melania" sign at the DC Trump hotel just days after the election.
Why that one? I'll give three reasons. First is #3 on your poll. Second, because it's a prayer that everyone knows and will probably say along with you. That will get the crowd engaged early for the stuff POTUS is going to say next, in the same way a crowd-warmer might have call-back chants. Getting people started speaking in a crowd is the hardest part, and that prayer will do it because I'd bet nearly everyone there will know it. Third, all indications I've seen are that FLOTUS is not particularly comfortable in front of crowds. It avoids her having to come up with something on the fly, which I'd imagine would be all the more nerve-racking.
This gets old. Imagine if anyone had said the previous First Lady had had that occupation.
Unknown said...
"I think the reason Melania isn't being attacked by the left is that she's seen as Trump's victim, not his ally. She's a sympathetic figure."
Are you really going to claim Melania as well as Baron are not being attacked by the left? Seriously?
You leftists are so awful.
I also agree that Melania is probably scared for her child and for her family. The left is coming apart and there are many unhinged people who will use this hatred, coming from all sides, as an excuse for extreme violence. Her instinct is to protect her family, but this must feel daunting. I would pray too. And I don't think PT knew she was going to pray. He looked genuinely surprised and pleased.
I don't know why she did it, and I don't care. I also find it completely plausible that The Donald did not know that she was going to say the prayer.
Trump plays it fast and loose. It's plausible that he told Melania that anything she wanted to say was good for him. That would be the act of a loving and trusting spouse, and a confident President who doesn't micro-manage like Jimmy Carter or Richard Nixon.
Ron, Slovenians are overwhelming Roman Catholic.
Did not know that, thanks.
Liberals, progressives, lefties et al don't care a fig about Melania because she is irrelevant.
Our Mother,
Who art posed on the wing of Trump Force One in a red thong bikini and black stilletto-heeled boots,
Hallowed be thy name.
Give us this day,
A chrome-plated semi-auto .45, and an attaché case filled with diamonds. And even a handcuff. Because, well, handcuffs.
And forgive us our trespasses. Because we've done a hell of a lot of trespassing.
Amen.
Flashback: Palladian's machine translation of the Lord's Prayer
The suggestion that he would use his wife to troll liberals is very disturbing!
People attending a Trump rally are likely to feel that Christianity is under attack by the elites who don't share the faith and openly denigrate it and attempt to force Christian believe from the public sphere.
To which the elite replies that that is ridiculous and you dumb asses have it coming.
Was the provided video of a member of the DNC or of the "Lame Street Media" or Chancellor Blank's mentor?
Even a machine beats Chuck's translation.
Sheesh.
I'm trying to imagine "the Talk" that a POTUS must have with his/her offspring.
They're going to say your mother should be raped. Don't worry. We have Secret Service. She's not gonna be raped.
They're gonna say I'm Hitler. You can look at my driver's license. It doesn't say Hitler. I'm not that guy.
They're gonna say you're the spawn of Satan. That's not true.
You've gotta get through this, and I'm sorry that I'm putting you through it. But I know you can do it and will grow up great.
Unknown said...
Liberals, progressives, lefties et al don't care a fig about Melania because she is irrelevant."
Then it would be a good idea for progressives not to proudly brandish signs saying "Rape Melania."
Just think, some lovely lefty did that in a crowd and none of his fellow progs stopped him.
The entire country is seeing just how nice and kind you people are.
I read somewhere that she was raised an atheist but baptized later as an adult. I think as a Protestant. Her version of the Lord's Prayer was the Protestant version. Not such an unusual choice to me. I have been taught that if you feel the need to pray but don't know what to say, go with the Lord's Prayer. It fulfills all the roles of prayer. The honor of God, the witness of faith, the offering of obedience, the remembrance of hope, the petition for life, the admission of sins, and the watchful fear of temptation.(Stole that last bit from Tertullian.) If you are asked to say a public prayer and don't know where to begin, or have a bad case of stage fright, The Lord's Prayer is a most excellent choice.
Freder: "She was undoubtedly raised an Atheist."
Huh? On what basis do you conclude that? Because she grew up in a Communist country?
Wikipedia has a comprehensive article on Slovenia. Sounds like a fine place to visit.
Slovenia has some very very nice people there.
"I'm not going to nail it down" Pure nihilism. Still waiting for Ann's Norma McCorvey eulogy.
According to Wiki, about 10% of Slovenians describe themselves as agnostic or atheist. That figure was actually lower during the Communist era. I don't presume to know what Melania's actual beliefs are, but the idea that she just naturally accepted Communism's state-enforced atheism is specious. Clearly, most people there did not.
She said a prayer at a political rally and the Left is having a cow?
Democratic political rallies held at black churches in Chicago always involve lots of praying and singing and dancing. So what's the big deal?
The Lord's Prayer is a good choice because it's so well known, and it's simple and humble. I closed the memorial service for my wife, a non-religious event in my back yard, by asking everyone to say the Lord's Prayer together. Tears all around and later I had many say how moving that particular moment was.
She's obviously an atheist, because unlike the zealots we have in Western society, she was born into a properly Communist nation.
DBQ asserts: Ah. But Jesus, himself, wasn't Christian. He was called Christ and the people who later....after his death....who followed his teachings and established a religion around him were Christians.
But if Christ offered this prayer to his disciples, it is a Christ-ian prayer, is it not?
cubanbob: She said a prayer at a political rally and the Left is having a cow?
No, the left is apparently not having a cow. Which is kinda the whole subject of our hostess's post.
Angel-Dyne said...
No, the left is apparently not having a cow. Which is kinda the whole subject of our hostess's post.
Hey! That's my job.
Ann,
The audience matters. Reciting the prayer shows that she, or at the very least, Trump's planning team knows to whom they were speaking.
However, the speech was only last night and I doubt Trump's enemies even tuned in. Give them the time to at least wake up and find that The Lord's Prayer was part of it- you will probably get some reaction by tomorrow.
chickelit said...
Flashback: Palladian's machine translation of the Lord's Prayer
An example of early speech recognition. Not bad for 2001.
She said the Lord's Prayer because it's the only prayer she knows--it's the only prayer most non-Catholics know--and she didn't want to improvise.
Liberals, progressives, lefties et al don't give two hoots whether Trumpies think we are nice people or not. We know what we are. One thing we are not is Trumpies.
Fox News is running a piece about some people criticizing Melania. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/19/melania-trump-attacked-for-reciting-lords-prayer-at-campaign-rally.html
Didn't have time to look into it further. My only thought is that none of the Twitter accounts referenced have significant followings or vitality so it seems more like they're grasping at straws.
She could have said 23rd Psalms. That's also fitting at this time.
I am happy to claim a tendency to paranoia, but in this case it seems to me that it is possible to over-analyze.
One day perhaps Melania Trump, or someone close to her, will write a memoir and this episode may be mentioned. But perhaps not, as it seems rather inconsequential.
Sean asserts condescendingly: She said the Lord's Prayer because it's the only prayer she knows--it's the only prayer most non-Catholics know--and she didn't want to improvise.
Most of us non-Catholic Christians know that the Lord warned us against using vain repetitions in prayer {Matt. 6:7]. In the Lord's Prayer he was proposing a form of prayer that, as Sydney points out, contains the elements that please God.
Not entirely OT: David Rubin a liberal who I praised yesterday for being brave enough to criticize leftist pc, displayed just how much he knows about religion in a podcast he did:
RubinReport on Jesus: "He was around a lot of Muslims. It was the Middle East."
Rubin is very critical of Christianity. It would be nice if he actually knew something about it, including the fact that it is 700 years older than Islam.
Ron Winkleheimer,
The Slovenes were historically Roman Catholic before Communism, and still are today, though not as intensely or overwhelmingly. I have not hear Melania Trump describe her religious upbringing, though I have heard that she was raised as an atheist and was later converted to Protestantism. In any case, I listened to her prayer and it is the Protestant version for the most part.
Well, 600 anyway.
or rather, a little over 500.
Sydney wrote...
I read somewhere that she was raised an atheist but baptized later as an adult. I think as a Protestant. Her version of the Lord's Prayer was the Protestant version.
Yes, me too, just don't remember where I read it.
But where are the liberals whose reaction justifies that mockery? I'm not seeing them. Maybe the zealotry over separating church and state is not what it used to be.
I Think Ann is right and that normally this would have been a major point of derision. But there are 2 reasons in my opinion why it is not being mentioned this time.
First is I think this is the effect of the air being let out of the balloon. The Media and the left have been going batshit insane since November 8th. At some point they will settle down and realize they have 7.75 more years of this.
Second is the Overton window the left employed to silence opposing viewpoints has been shattered. It is clear a majority of Americans like the lords prayer opening a speech like this. It is also clear that they have united around Trump but more than that have found common cause with each other. Trump let the cat out of the bag: most Americans like our country, our language, our way of life, our freedom, our liberty. The left and the media are an enemy of all of that.
The best part of this election was the political realignment. The republican party is being pulled away from DC and the wealthy. The democrat party will never be viable nationally until they detach the oligarchs and the DC elite as well.
Exiled, thank you for pointing that out. I have been astounded by the number of people who believe that Islam is older than Christianity! While one can argue that Ishmael was the father of the Arabs, Muhammed wasn't born until around 570 AD. And it is interesting to note that the Muslims believe that Ishamael, not Isaac, was the child of promise. It's almost as if Islam was a kind of mirror image [i.e, reverse] of Judaism.
Chuck,
Does nothing you write embarrass you at a personal level since you post anonymously? Anything at all?
I stand corrected, Hagar.
For some reason I was thinking Mohammad's flight to Medina occurred later than it actually did.
"Fox News is running a piece about some people criticizing Melania."
"Let's you and him fight."
Yugoslavia was a relative outlier in the Communist world and was fairly religiously tolerant, so even if her father had a high position, he might not have been forced to hide any beliefs. However, even if he had, there are many people in Eastern Europe who outwardly shunned religion for political purposes. After the fall of Communism they "turned their coats inside out" as the locals like to say and started going to church. These turncoats are often unpopular with the people who did not give up their religion.
Achilles @ 11:24 a.m.
Maybe. I might have agreed with this completely the week after the inauguration, but I am starting to fear the air isn't being let out. I see more derangement today, not less.
exiledonmainstreet: RubinReport on Jesus: "He was around a lot of Muslims. It was the Middle East."
Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.
I know some people have ludicrously ignorant notions about the history of Christian-Muslim relations, but this one beats all.
1. I don't believe that he didn't know that she was going to say "The Lords Prayer."
2. Was a good thing to do but remarkable, no.
3. Did Melania know about the attack on Sweden?
All staged to perfection. Fake it until you make it, Donald Trump's motto.
Vicki from Pasadena
mockturtle said... [hush][hide comment]
DBQ asserts: Ah. But Jesus, himself, wasn't Christian. He was called Christ and the people who later....after his death....who followed his teachings and established a religion around him were Christians.
But if Christ offered this prayer to his disciples, it is a Christ-ian prayer, is it not?
No doubt. But, did Christ actually intend to establish a religion? Did he ever say so?
Big Mike (9:19am):
Your language isn't entirely clear, but if you're saying Megan McArdle is jealous of Ivanka's height, you're entirely wrong. I've met her (MM, not IT) and she's at least 6'3", maybe even 6'4". I don't think she's jealous of any woman's height.
mockturtle said...
Exiled, thank you for pointing that out. I have been astounded by the number of people who believe that Islam is older than Christianity!"
Another that astounds me is that people actually believe that Islam played some sort of role in the founding of America. Obama said it, so it must be true.
I tell them the only connection Islam had to the early days of the Republic was when Jefferson sent Marines to fight against Muslim pirates during the Barbary War. The Barbary pirates were seizing US merchant ships and enslaving the crews.
The millenial I told that to (who is working on his master's degree) looked at me blankly when I sang "To the shores of Tripoli...." He didn't recognize The Marines' Hymn.
My wife and her brother and sister and spouses went on a vacation bike tour in the Julian Alps, riding through parts of Slovenia, Austria and Italy. Both guides were Slovenian. The were smart, witty and knowledgable, as you would expect of good tour guides. They were also immensely proud of their country. Slovenia was great, and Ljubljana was a wonderful city. I hope to go back before everyone else discovers just how nice it is and ruins it with too much tourism.
Yancey Ward said...
Achilles @ 11:24 a.m.
Maybe. I might have agreed with this completely the week after the inauguration, but I am starting to fear the air isn't being let out. I see more derangement today, not less.
You have to look at the different parties. First you have the elites and then you have the urban poor.
The elites are the wealthy who have bought DC and own the media. They had both parties locked up, open endless war and wherever they pointed the US Military jumped, defacto open borders giving them cheap labor and a more pliable electorate, massive burdensome taxes on everyone else that they were exempt from, and during the Obama and Bush and Clinton and Bush years an explosion of wealth at the top.
On the other hand you have the poor side of the democrat coalition. These are the people who have been put through shitty public schools, the absurd higher education system that piles debt on students, many living in high crime neighborhoods in urban areas, being told 1 hour commutes one way on a bus is the best we can do, and getting paid 11$ an hour. They are also told it is all republicans fault though the policies that cause this situation are progressive.
The first group is festering with hate. They have trillions at stake and are very disciplined people. They are also being thrust into the forefront by Trump. The curtain has been pulled back. I can't for the life of me understand why they thought Hillary was a good idea.
The second group is losing air. They are also starting to notice that illegal immigration is what is keeping wages around 11$ an hour and h1b's are not good for them. They are inherently opposed to "free" trade and realize these crony deals are written for the wealthy. As a group they are stupid. But as individuals they are intelligent. Individuals are breaking off every day. The unions are breaking off in mass.
I tell them the only connection Islam had to the early days of the Republic was when Jefferson sent Marines to fight against Muslim pirates during the Barbary War. The Barbary pirates were seizing US merchant ships and enslaving the crews.
Exactly, Exiled! The only historical link I've ever read of.
No Danegeld!
I imagine "forgive us our debts" makes our T-bond holders in China and Japan very nervous.
Full Moon asks: No doubt. But, did Christ actually intend to establish a religion? Did he ever say so?
Yes. Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
@Dr. Weevil, you're correct. Megan is 6' 2" and Ivanka is 5' 11". But in every photo of Megan I've seen she seems to be slumping or slouching while Ivanka walks with her shoulders back and back straight. She walks tall, which is what I meant to convey.
Hagar said...
"Well, 600 anyway.
or rather, a little over 500."
You are accepting the claims of Islamic propagandists. There is absolutely no contemporary evidence for the existence of Muhammad, even though literacy was common in the surrounding nations which he supposedly conquered and writings exist describing the invasion of the Arab horde. The whole story of his life is almost certainly a complete fabrication. This is why the Saudis do not allow archeological investigations on their territory.
..."Take, for example, the 1786 meeting in London of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Tripolitan ambassador to Britain. As American ambassadors to France and Britain respectively, Jefferson and Adams met with Ambassador Adja to negotiate a peace treaty and protect the United States from the threat of Barbary piracy.
These future United States presidents questioned the ambassador as to why his government was so hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke any such animosity. Ambassador Adja answered them, as they reported to the Continental Congress, “that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/216283/americas-earliest-terrorists-joshua-e-london
At least Melania, not being a native-born American, does not feel that being FLOTUS entitles her ipso facto to be POTUS one day.
That Feder so blithely tossed that out, i was surprised. There were a lot of articles written on the topic during the Cold War and anfervthe fall of The Wall.
Car salesman:
Not a car salesman. The equivalent of a regional manufacturers rep or district manager.
I had to look this one up. WTH?
3. Did Melania know about the attack on Sweden?
Plenty of people around the world are puzzled by President Trump’s reference during a Saturday rally in Florida to an incident in Sweden that happened Friday — including the Swedish government.
The Swedish Embassy in Washington reached out Sunday to the State Department to find out what Trump was talking about and why, the Dagens Nyheter newspaper reported.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/02/19/umm-what-supposed-terror-attack-baffles-swedes/98129506/
The hatred being hurled at them is out of control. The stress must be horrific.
You say this after the hatred hurled at the Obamas the last eight years?! Considering that Donald Trump was right in the thick of the hatred hurled at Obama through propagating birther nonsense, This is rich.
According to this article, Melania’s father Victor Knavs was a member of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, and his children were not baptized.
I should add that active atheism never was a part of Tito’s policies (Slovenia was one of the six republics that made up communist Yugoslavia, which broke with Stalin in 1948 and wasn’t a signatory to the Warsaw Pact). Yugoslavia was a tremendously diverse country, both ethnically and religiously, and Tito (himself a Croat) went to great lengths to humor the several groups as far as their ethnic or religious background was concerned. Christians, Muslims and Jews were free to worship as they pleased. Yet sixteen years after his death the country exploded.
I should also add that a non-religious upbringing is not necessarily an atheist upbringing (whatever that means). I was born into a non-religious Dutch family in 1949, but there was nothing atheist about my upbringing. We just didn’t do religion.
"You say this after the hatred hurled at the Obamas the last eight years?!"
I don't remember any "rape Michelle" signs. I don't remember parents complaining because their kids had to go to school with the Obama girls. I certainly don't remember SNL going after Obama. Michele was treated like the Second Coming of Jackie O.
Yes, Obama was hated by conservatives (who did not however, go into screaming hissy fits the day after he was elected.) However, in DC, in NYC, in Hollywood he was met with nothing but worship and adoration.
Stop with the moral equivalence. The way both families have been treated is vastly different and pretending otherwise when the evidence is all around us just makes you look stupid and dishonest.
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02/19/melania-trump-opens-florida-rally-with-the-lords-prayer-then-liberals-atheists-bash-her-for-it/
Evidently so many consumers of whatever The Blaze is labeled feel if ten or a hundred or a thousand people tweet something, then the fallacy of attributing to a large group characteristics of individual members adds some type of value and is noteworthy.
I can see the value of funny cat pics for clicks, seems about the same as The Blaze.
Althouse is spot on here, in spite of what The Blaze tries to mass fallacize. It is interesting to wonder if that is because progs have learned to monitor their bigotry more successfully, by in this case holding in arrears their poisoned tongue, or if they just never believed any of the bullshit they used to preach to their co-members foremost and the rest of us secondly, hence no Christian green shoots of enlightenment but instead the same old mindless sloganeering in the same way, just not about The Lord's Prayer today.
Did Melania plagiarize the Lords Prayer.
Since Althouse has conjoined Trump, Christianity and Ronald Reagan in today's message, let's recall the Ekeventh Commandment: "Thou shall not speak I'll of a fellow Republican."
I'm lookin' at you, Sean Haanity and Rush Limbaugh. And of course, above all you, Donald Trump.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eleventh_Commandment_(Ronald_Reagan)
I am teeing this up for all of the Althousian Chuck-haters. To let you take a swing at me, speaking ill of Trump. Assuredly (see, e.g., the Supreme Court), the more that Trump is a Republican, the less I will speak I'll of him. Also, the less that he is a moronic asshole too. I don't think that the Reagans had a whole lot of tolerance for uncivil vulgarians in either party.
Freder Frederson said...You say this after the hatred hurled at the Obamas the last eight years?! Considering that Donald Trump was right in the thick of the hatred hurled at Obama through propagating birther nonsense, This is rich.
But Obama himself profited from the "birther nonsense" for years and years: Althouse link
"...ill..." not "...I'll..."
Auto-incorrect.
What doesn't break you may make you stronger. Americans were not aborted, they were not broken, they have discovered their dignity and their footing. The Left is running the models.
Yahoo news leads with President Trump misstating something about Sweden.
Fake news. Trump didn't claim there was a terrorist attack. He just said "You look at what's happening in Germany. You look at what's happening last night in Sweden ... Sweden ... who would believe this? Sweden, they took in large numbers, they are having problems like they never thought possible. You look at what's happening Brussels, you look at what's happening all over the world..."
Yahoo says this:
"No incident occurred in Sweden on Friday night."
Nothing? Everyone just went quietly to bed? No rapes, murders, arson?
Why not simply say, "President Trump was not specific about what he was referring to," rather than declare it non-existent?
Late to the show but I agree with MOM and all. If you listen carefully to when she says, "deliver us from evil", her voice cracks. Maybe it's just nervousness, but it caught my attention and I listened to it a second time. I can see her being scared.
@Dr. Weevil, you're correct. Megan is 6' 2" and Ivanka is 5' 11". But in every photo of Megan I've seen she seems to be slumping or slouching while Ivanka walks with her shoulders back and back straight. She walks tall, which is what I meant to convey.
MM's slouching posture is fairly common for tall women. Whether consciously or subconsciously, they are trying to "shrink down" from their uncomfortable height.
"You look at what's happening last night in Sweden ... Sweden ... "
Well what was he referring to? Sounds like the Bowling Green Attack. Oh, that's in Kentucky.
James Kahn said...
Yahoo news leads with President Trump misstating something about Sweden.
Fake news. Trump didn't claim there was a terrorist attack. He just said "You look at what's happening in Germany. You look at what's happening last night in Sweden ... Sweden ... who would believe this? Sweden, they took in large numbers, they are having problems like they never thought possible. You look at what's happening Brussels, you look at what's happening all over the world..."
Yahoo says this:
"No incident occurred in Sweden on Friday night."
Nothing? Everyone just went quietly to bed? No rapes, murders, arson?
Why not simply say, "President Trump was not specific about what he was referring to," rather than declare it non-existent?
Yep. Yahoo seems to be leading with anti-Trump stuff a lot. Sweden leads world in rape percentages. A police chief advises Swedish women to stay indoors at night, or risk being raped by Muslims.
"Liberals have practically made it a tenet to mock Christians.
Trump continues to capitalize on that error."
It's a gift that's going to keep on giving. When you're so clueless you try to demonize the freakin' Little Sisters of the Poor don't be too surprised if your opponents relentlessly beat you over the head with it.
Malmo is the rape capital of Europe, thanks to the Muslim refugees leftists like Unknown are so eager to admit to this country, so it's a safe bet some attacks took place there the other night.
As Full Moon said, the left is running with Fake News - misrepresenting what Trump said, as usual. The crime rate in Europe has gone though the roof - hence the popularity of Marine Le Pen.
NYT:"
Mr. Trump did not state, per se, that a terrorist attack had taken place in Sweden.
But the context of his remarks — he mentioned Sweden right after he chastised Germany, a destination for refugees and asylum seekers fleeing war and deprivation — suggested that he thought it might have.
“Sweden,” he said. “They took in large numbers. They’re having problems like they never thought possible. "
""Thou shall not speak I'll of a fellow Republican."
I'm lookin' at you, Sean Haanity and Rush Limbaugh."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I normally avoid chuck but this just jumped out at me.
Is anyone this self unaware ? Really ?
Achilles said: "Second is the Overton window the left employed to silence opposing viewpoints has been shattered. It is clear a majority of Americans like the lords prayer opening a speech like this. It is also clear that they have united around Trump but more than that have found common cause with each other. Trump let the cat out of the bag: most Americans like our country, our language, our way of life, our freedom, our liberty. The left and the media are an enemy of all of that."
I agree.
And, I do not think Trump would put her up to it so she would be attacked, he is more about protecting her, and Ivanka, and his family.
Melania is beautiful, smart, speaks multiple languages, she's accomplished, runs a business. Her only sin is she is not a Democrat. The left celebrates some really hideous creatures, solely because they are 'D's.
I'm sure she had her reasons for reciting a prayer, it may be as simple as believing we need to bring God back into the mix. Like saying Grace before a meal. I'm not religious, but she is right.
When you're burning in hell, the current temperature is immaterial. Why the First Lady read the Lords Prayer is similarly irrelevant.
The dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.
Your decision is to follow the Christ, or accept charity from the infidels. To take the meager gifts that Clinton, Pelosi, and Schumer offer, and trade your soul for a single meal.
The reason Schumer wears his glasses low, is he is unable to look the faithful in the eye. This is the symptom of all thieves and charlatans of their sickness.
I think she found the words inspirational and healing and hopeful for herself and wanted to share them with love. Your mileage may vary.
It's a big thing to face hate with love.
My decades long observation of talking heads on TV news and Politicians is that their faces begin to reflect the lies they tell. A crooked attractive smile here. A comforting mirror of a personal pet dog there. The hardened look of an addict further down the road. A hurried lack of quality in a passing glance. Maybe true deceivers can fool all.
Merkel might be going down, too.
Not seeing any attacks, Althouse?
You must have missed this
Nothing ticks off an old jersey princess more that a smart, rich, hot looking , conservative women spouting the Lord's prayer. The jealousy is obvious. Reality is tough.
Seeing Red opines: Merkel might be going down, too.
Might? I'd be willing to bet on it.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/29/thomas-jefferson-s-quran-how-islam-shaped-the-founders.html
The argument it would have been myopic, from our viewpoint hundreds of years later especially, and conceding that compared to a man like Washington, were he alive today, we would all be moronically myopic compared to him in this extrapolated ludicrously hypo, might be more valid than the argument there was no understanding or comprehension or even acknowledgment of Islam by the founders.
Chuck you are not alone in your perspective. I think every blog I visit has one or two conservative posters who barf everytime they hear the word "Trump". It becomes a conditioned reflex. It becomes an obligation. An addiction. Hindsight is probably the cure. Just a lot of the nevertrumpers bailed out of social media to escape the results. I'm trying to listen to the message they present but often it seems difficult to me. I feel the same about Bernie Sanders.
@M15ery I don't disagree. I happen to like tall women who are proud of their height. In my mind Megan and her slouch is like bright women who try to act less intelligent than they are lest some man not view them as sexy and desirable and some of the mean girls start picking on them.
"I am totally going with Maxed Out Mama on this one."
In Communist countries after the Fifties you could be a believer but you could not hold power (or teach or be a reporter. It can't happen here.) So perhaps in Melania's earliest days someone whom mattered said to her that the proof freedom existed would be that The Lord's Prayer was recited at a political rally.
Michael K I am not clear about the source of your derision. Because I thought I was entirely self-aware enough of your anticipated criticism to have mentioned it explicitly .
But I wonder; are you talking about something else? Are you talking about the fact that Hannity and Limbaugh frequently and pointedly set themselves apart from the Republican Party? Spending such large parts of their respective programs on attacking "the GOP establishment" that they wouldn't want to be bound by Reagan's rules for Republicans?
How many hundreds of comments have been posted to this blog, to the effect that Trump isn't a Republican at all, and that Trump is the leader of the Disruptor Party? I don't think it is much of a selling point for Trump, but I am willing to accept it as a valid construction of what is going on.
Lords Prayer seems fairly generic when you think about it. What is specifically Christian about it, anyway?
Specifically Christian in that it's the prayer Jesus told people to say. But the prayer itself has close similarities with Judaism's Kaddish and even somewhat with the opening of the Quran.
Ron Winkleheimer said...
Being from Slovenia, its likely that any early religious indoctrination (if any) would have been Eastern Orthodox.
Wikipedia:
"Religion in Slovenia is predominantly Christianity, with Roman Catholicism being the largest Christian denomination in the country."
By the way, I've been playing an internet game called geoguessr.com. They show you a random Google street view and you have to guess where it is. It is fun and educational. One of the things I've learned, somewhat to my surprise, is that Slovenia is a beautiful country, with tidy villages and well-kept roads and farm fields, the equal of any country in western Europe.
I presume Melania was absolutely sincere saying the Lord's Prayer. I don't go to church currently, but I have in the past. I do not believe -literally- the stories in the bible, but the Lord's Prayer is powerful if one takes what it says seriously.
And sacred music is powerful if one takes it seriously:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM421mbKubA
FWIW, her hair didn't appear lighter to me.
Also, Feb 11: https://mobile.twitter.com/FLOTUS/status/830559859749875720
"with Mrs. Abe @BBTSchurch where @POTUS & I were married, where we celebrate and we pray "
Why is it so hard to believe that she takes her faith seriously? And I believe POTUS did not know she was going to say the Lord's Prayer.
One of the things I've learned, somewhat to my surprise, is that Slovenia is a beautiful country
Ljubljana is like Paris without the filth, dog shit, and hobo migrants. Without the cheap Puddling Iron erect penis ruining the skyline.
"But where are the liberals whose reaction justifies that mockery? I'm not seeing them."
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/02/leftists-triggered-outraged-melania-trump-recites-lords-prayer-fl-rally/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/19/melania-trump-attacked-for-reciting-lords-prayer-at-campaign-rally.html
I noticed that the First Lady used the Book of Common Prayer/Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer, as opposed to the King James/Presbyterian, or Roman Catholic version. This could split the Religious Right./sarc
@Tyrone, I'll join the piling for poor Ron Winkleheimer. In 284 AD Emperor Diocletian divided the Roman into two parts, the western ruled from Rome and the eastern ruled from Byzantium. The dividing line ran through the modern Balkans. On one side of the line people used the Latin alphabet and were Roman Catholics, on the eastern side of the line they used Greek or Cyrillic slphabets and were Eastern Orthodox. The Serbs and the Croats speak the same language but the Croats are northwest of Serbia so they use the Latin alphabet and are Catholic while the Serbs use Cyrillic and are Orthodox. Slovenia is further northwest of Croatia so they also use the Latin alphabet and worship in Catholic churches.
But of course Serbs and Croats are both inferior to the Slovenes, as anyone descended from Slovenes can tell you.
I wasn't aware that this was something I was supposed to care about.
But thanks for letting me know!
@harryo, I've been to Llubljana but not Paris. Llubljana is a lovely city which was modeled on Salzburg. I have to admit that I preferred Salzburg.
cf 9:23
great comment that moved me to tears!
"I am pretty sure that if you say The Lord's Prayer to bait your enemies you are doing it wrong."
Susan, one of Christ's favorite tactics was to bait Pharisees like you by quoting Jewish Scripture.
Exiled, Mock Turtle,
You are correct. I did a little remedial digging on The Muslims during the 18th and early 19th C. The Barbary Wars (there were two, and a period of paying ransoms) finally stopped when that warmongering Th Jefferson sent the marines. I always remember best the Stephen Decatur tomahawk attack on the pirates. They adopted tactics from the Amerinds, boarded the ships and took scalps!
I will post this since I haven't seen anyone else post it. Trump is displaying religious symbols because that is the wedge he can drive between the black community and the democrat party. If Melania is attacked over it, that is a bonus.
Did anyone else notice the blacks for trump 2020 signs behind Trump?
Trump always talks about inner city crime and law and order. Those are also more wedge issues. If Trump can increase his percentage of the black vote by 10 - 15% then he is unbeatable in 2020.
early religious indoctrination (if any) would have been Eastern Orthodox.
Wikipedia:
"Religion in Slovenia is predominantly Christianity, with Roman Catholicism being the largest Christian denomination in the country."
The dividing line is Croatia. The Serbs are Orthodox and the Croatians are Roman Catholic because they and Slovenia were Austrian.
Serbia was Ottoman until the 20th century.
SDN,
Not sure why pointing out that people who say that Melania was saying the Lord's Prayer in a baiting way means they are accusing her of doing prayer sort of backwards makes me a Pharisee, but whatever.
I was actually somewhat surprised to see that particular choice bundled with many of the other choices. It didn't occur to me as a possibility until I saw it in print.
I still have trouble seeing how someone can accuse someone they do not personally know of saying a prayer in an entrapment kind of way to bring out the worst in an enemy. Seems mean to say things like that about motives without proof.
"FullMoon said...
Lords Prayer seems fairly generic when you think about it.
What is specifically Christian about it, anyway?"
The Lord's Prayer is quintessential Christianity. What other religion instructs the followers to call upon the Creator of the Universe as "Father"? Talk about a personal relationship with Jesus, calling his Father "Our Father" means He is our brother. "Our Father" is not just the first two words, but the name used by Catholics referring to that prayer. Myself, I find it very useful, especially in the dark watches of the night when I awake from sleep and am beset by worries.
That "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us." is also boilerplate Christianity. I'm not sure. Do other faiths have that line? Or anything vaguely similar?
That prayer reeks of Christianity. That prayer oozes Christianity. That prayer is wonderful. Good for her.
Some discussion of forgiveness in other religions here.
Wrong.
"Serbia was Ottoman until the 20th century."
------------------------
"The last Austrian-Ottoman war was known as the Dubica War (1788–1791), when the Austrians urged the Christians in Bosnia to rebel. No wars were fought afterwards until the 20th century, which marked the fall of both mighty empires (by this time, Austria had become Austria-Hungary)."
WIki
"Note to Megan McArdle, I realize that Ivanka is taller"--Big Mike
Don't embarrass the Mike Team by being so wrong.* The World's Tallest Female Econoblogger is four inches taller than little Ivanka.
Here ya go....http://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/02/19/liberals-attack-mafia-wife-melania-trump-for-reciting-lords-prayer/
Chuck said...
Since Althouse has conjoined Trump, Christianity and Ronald Reagan in today's message, let's recall the Ekeventh Commandment: "Thou shall not speak I'll of a fellow Republican."
I'm lookin' at you, Sean Haanity and Rush Limbaugh. And of course, above all you, Donald Trump.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eleventh_Commandment_(Ronald_Reagan)
"I am teeing this up for all of the Althousian Chuck-haters. To let you take a swing at me, speaking ill of Trump. Assuredly (see, e.g., the Supreme Court), the more that Trump is a Republican, the less I will speak I'll of him. Also, the less that he is a moronic asshole too. I don't think that the Reagans had a whole lot of tolerance for uncivil vulgarians in either party."
Not because you bash Trump, but because you are so molar grindingly ignorant and seem so proud of it.
I'm sorry Ann and Meade. That's the best I can do.
Oh, and dishonest.
Here's another...http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/melania-trump-stood-crowd-florida-she-suddenly-looked-down-and-said-these-simple-words
Did Melania freeze the opposition? She used the Lord's prayer to inspire people and her husband's haters can't counter her move? If this is so, then Melania executed one of Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals - freeze your opposition.
Did Melania freeze the opposition? She used the Lord's prayer t inspire people and her husband's haters can't counter her move? If this is so then Melania executed one of Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals - freeze your opposition.
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