१३ जानेवारी, २०१७
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७६ टिप्पण्या:
It's stupid, but where's the misogyny?
It's all pretty sound advice. But they left out the stuff about condoms.
They didn't even mention to keep your socks on so that you don't get pregnant.
Obviously, high school graduates manage their social and romantic lives with total good judgment, so teaching them anything is oppressive, sexist, and misogynist.
Now, a more subtle argument, that American educators manage their social and romantic lives worse than the average American, and should try to learn something rather than teach, might persuade me.
They blew it big time when they told the females to " show respect for him." That's is Patriarchy stuff which insidiously leads to creating heterosexual happy families. How Shameful!
I think the misogynistic part is that the top of the Girl's form asks for information about their period. While this is obviously important when planning what to do on the date, it's really not the sort of thing the school should be asking.
This is small potatoes. I had to get married in high school health class.
I like it. I've always been extremely shy and never asked women out on dates. This assignment might have changed me when it was still possible. I wish I had this assignment. I would have gotten a very valuable education from it.
I had to listen to the football coach explain that "that stuff" shouldn't be done before a game, "with or without a girl."
Then we went outside and played kickball.
All year.
-XC
Kind of got to ageee with bagoh20.... granted it's a little overbearing but hell the best dating advice out there currently is still "kids the girl", if you don't you gonna "miss da girl."
"It's stupid, but where's the misogyny?"
Did you read the details of the assignment?
Don't "kids the girl." Just don't.
What I think is the worst thing about this assignment is that it assumes the person can get a date. What if no one you want to be with will have you? What if you are shy or very determined not to seem needy?
It assumes a girl wants to go out with a boy. It assumes the boy will pay for everything and that he will do the driving. It assumes the girl is very interested in looking pretty and being feminine. It may not be misogyny, but it's sexist.
Seeing misogyny is a sure fire way to ruin a date and a relationship. It's like going for a walk and staring at the sun the whole time. You can do that, or just enjoy the natural warmth that brought you out in the first place.
Althouse:
Where is the boys assignment? Perhaps it was equally insulting to delicate sensibilities.
Would that make this assignment misogynistic or something else?
It assumes a girl wants to go out with a boy. It assumes the boy will pay for everything and that he will do the driving. It assumes the girl is very interested in looking pretty and being feminine. It may not be misogyny, but it's sexist.
There was an equal assignment for the boys, which told them them they were to do the driving, they weren't to make gross noises, they had to chew with their mouths closed, they had to open doors, etc
Expecting the boy to pay, drive, and behave like a gentleman is certainly not fair, but that's what you do to be a successful happy human male and get a happy satisfied woman at your side. Likewise, a lion does not have the option of going vegan. He can try, but it will not lead to success.
Part of the boy's assignment is attached to the story she linked.
And Ignorance is Bliss ha ha ha! Took me a minute.
It's either a step in the right direction or back to future. I'm not a huge fan of this being under the rubric of a school assignment, but the long lost art and practice of dating, Yes, ought to exhumed, polished off, and revived.
MayBee:
Right. And now for the important part. Misogyny or something else?
"They had to chew with their mouths closed."
-- Sad that people have to be told THAT of all things.
SUGGESTIONS FOR THE GIRLS (from the guys)
So the school system did not generate the questions? How dare those boys who are interested in girls express their preferences about how the girls behave?
Ha!!
That's what happens when you type on a phone doh "kiss the girl." In any event to answer Ann's questions...
Almost every person can get a date. That's the reality, as far as assertive mating goes, there really is nearly someone for everyone. Now, granted not every 3 can date an 8. Sorry, but the cold hard reality is, better learn that sooner than later. The whole point of the exercise is to get over shyness. Asking a girl on a date is terrifying, and many awkward 15-16 year old males will not ask out of fear. Some, who's fathers let them know the way life works might work up the courage, but in my experience the number who talk in the halls of the high school of the courage they wish they had...far outnumbers the brave few.
In any event, like it or not, the truth is the vast majority of girls wants to go out with a boy. I know, not PC to say, but they want the boy to have the courage to ask. Life is really tough, really tough, and I'm convinced the vast majority of people in it are pretty miserable, in part because we tell people things to make ourselves feel better, as opposed to tell people things that are in their best interest to hear. No one wants to hear, "don't be a wimp, ask the girl out." Still, might be the most important thing someone is ever told.
Good thing there aren't any LGBTTQQIAAP kids in Utah.
RE - being shy or not wanting to go on a date or not being able to get a date...
10th grade English -we had an assignment to analyze the lyrics from our favorite song and to give a presentation where we would play the song and then present the analysis.
I owned no music then and had no favorite song. (still don't, just doesn't do anything for me).
Somehow... I survived... (borrowed a CD from a friend) And the rest of the class greatly enjoyed the assignment.
Celebrate diversity I say. Try out "normal" things you're uncomfortable with. And don't ruin everyone else's fun just because it's not your thing.
"Where is the boys assignment? Perhaps it was equally insulting to delicate sensibilities."
I assume it was equally sexist.
You can access the full list for boys by clicking the link at the cited source. Remember, "the girls" created that list.
"In any event, like it or not, the truth is the vast majority of girls wants to go out with a boy. I know, not PC to say, but they want the boy to have the courage to ask. Life is really tough, really tough, and I'm convinced the vast majority of people in it are pretty miserable, in part because we tell people things to make ourselves feel better, as opposed to tell people things that are in their best interest to hear. No one wants to hear, "don't be a wimp, ask the girl out." Still, might be the most important thing someone is ever told."
Reminds me of that scene in "Gran Torino" that was so important in the history of this blog.
http://www.sltrib.com/csp/mediapool/sites/sltrib/Pages/gallery.csp?cid=4804114&pid=3996667
The handout for boys.
SUGGESTIONS FOR THE BOYS (from the girls)
Misandry!!
Right. And now for the important part. Misogyny or something else?
I would say something else. Sexist for both groups. Old fashioned for sure. There's no misogyny there.
My oldest son did Cotillion, where they learned and practiced how to ask a girl out and to dance. It was Cotillion, so it was assumed boy/girl. It was mostly about being polite and kind- both the asker and the askee. I do believe those are important skills.
It can be taught well, but the linked assignment was stupidly done.
Sexist of boys to want girls who exhibit feminine charm?
Sexist of the girls to want gentlemen?
No. I disagree on both counts.
The horrah!
The guy makes himself out of obligations.
The girl completes the picture by showing she's satisfied with him.
Traditional sexism.
It's OK to have sex education classes, but this is bad?
Here's the old post from January 9, 2009 about "Gran Torino." In the comments, asked about the "lessons" the movie taught, I have a 12-point list. #5 is: "A young man should perceive when a girl likes him and he needs to ask her out to dinner and a movie before somebody else does."
About 3 hours later, quoting that, Meade says: "Okay. Want to have dinner with me and then see it again? I'll wear my pants. Just for you." (The "pants" joke referred to Meade's avatar at the time, which was a photo I'd said I'd liked of a man in green pants.)
An hour later, I said: "Yes, but you'll have to come to Madison."
Shortly thereafter, knox said: "Meade, this is HUGE! Meade....? He must be packing."
Meade did, in fact, come to Madison soon after that, and by August, we were married.
"Almost every person can get a date."
I think a lot of us don't want just "a date." There are differing degrees of selectivity. I, for one, have almost never gone on a date and did not want to be asked by people I'd have to figure out how to say no to.
The "assignment" also suggests that the kids group their $5 and all go do something together.
When I was a kid, this was called "hanging out" and not an actual date. In reality....hanging out with a group of kids, boys and girls, is a great way to break the ice, get to feel comfortable with each other and not have the stress of a one on one actual date.
The suggestions on how to act are pretty reasonable and are things that their parents should have taught them to do. I would be interested to see the boys' punch list.
The misuse of words is embarrassing. Come on teachers....proofread for crimeny sake.
Heh, well I have to say, anything that I say that gets referenced to be like that "fateful" post is quite the compliment indeed. I totally get that most people (especially after about 22) don't want just any date. At 15, 16, most people just need the experience of getting asked, when I was a freshman, I was pretty sure there was a girl that wanted me to ask her out on a date...but I wimped out.
As I age, I've seen much much more about how I should have taken the initiative instead of hesitated in life generally. Not that it would have gone anywhere in the sense that I later learned that we are quite different, but it would have been a good experience for a freshman to take on. At the same time, it's good growth for ladies to learn how to say No politely. Recognizing how much rejection sucks, but how to say no well...is an incredible skill. Note, the assignment does not require anyone to say yes to ANYONE, but to someone...
What a fun history you reference by the way.
Courting rituals. I think the assignment was misguided but kind of sweet. Utah has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the nation. The Mormon culture is superior in a lot of ways. I appreciate that they didn't blow up any theaters performing The Book of Mormon.
I would be interested to see the boys' punch list.
What, was my 9:21 comment chopped liver?
At the bottom of the form:
Please give a summary of the date activities
Hooo-boy! That's an opening that's comedy gold. Let's hope there are no budding Laslos in that high school.
Almost every person can get a date.
So you are not familiar with the 80/20 phenomenon?
In any event, today is not like the pre-1960s, when a date was often a social outing without necessarily having any romantic overtones. Today, "Do you want to go on a date?" is likely to be heard as, "Do you want to have sex tonight?" (I've also seen the other extreme of "Do you want to go out on a first date?" considered as "Do you want to start a courtship with an eye toward marriage?") In short, asking and going on a simple date is a much bigger deal than it used to be.
@ Darrell
Sorry I missed your comment. The boys' punch list is reasonable too.
These suggestions are all things that parents should have taught their children to get along in polite society. Not JUST on dates.
I especially appreciated the suggestion to the boys to wear just a light amount of cologne. I'll never forget that experience where I went on a double date and the guys showed up in their car to pick us up, wearing so much Jade East (for men) that I though we were all going to die before we got to the dance.
AGAIN:
The list was created by the students for the other students.
Young people may not have the subtlety of retired professors of law. News at 11.
It assumes the girl is very interested in looking pretty
Shocking. I hope Tom & Lorenzo don't hear about this.
"It may not be misogyny, but it's sexist."
Yes and it could even lead to heterosexual marriage and family.
And we can't have that.
I have noticed that kids, at least in Orange County, don't go on "dates" any more. They go as groups and "hang out."
Then of course, we have "hook ups."
Sad and probably harmful.
Let's be explicit about why the lists, created by students, matter:
The people in the best position to know what sort of behavior might be experienced and wouldn't be appreciated are the people who know the other students. That is, the other students are in a position to judge the students they might wish to date. They are the consumers of affection telling the sellers of affection what traits are most desired.
In what universe is that sexist? Or has sexism been defined such that individuals are proscribed from stating their own preferences in dating if those preferences have a gendered component?
The assumptions of those who see sexism here should be ridiculed.
The list was created by the students for the other students.
This is a very important point.
Misogyny? Seriously? This seems like a pretty nice little common sense rollup that you can take or toss out the window. If the Teacher actually graded it then I would have a problem. But as a way to jump-start an interesting conversation, I have no problems.
People are such wienies these days.
Thank you for noticing, Dust Bunny Queen.
I've been trying to get somebody to notice the point I've been making these past three hours.
Ok, I'm in Utah. And Utah is heavily dominated by LDS or Mormon culture. The LDS church is very big on what I'm sure Ann would decry nastily as "wrong ideals". They expect everyone to try to get married, to have a family, and to be good parents and spouses.
The LDS church has been preaching about the need to go on dates and not just "hang out." If Ann thinks this advice to girls is shocking, she very well may be surprised by the blunt advice given to the men and boys.
Here's how things are supposed to go in the LDS culture. Once a boy/girl turns 12 they start going to chaperoned dances (very occasionally at first), and after 14, there's more and more group activities. You are not supposed to date, i.e. one on one activities, until 16. The church encourages lots of dating, with lots of different people. At 18, boys are asked to go on an LDS church mission for 2 years. Girls can go at age 19. So while there's lots of dating, the teen years are meant to learn how to socialize, to deal with all kinds of people. Missions have many benefits, including massive maturing and figuring out what is important in life. Seeing happiness in a hut in Ghana or some small village in Panama can clarify a lot of things.
Once you get back off your mission, then you start being serious about getting married.
That's the basic cultural mindset here. So this assignment is maybe in the same vein: Get off your butts, go on a date and learn how to relate to other people. Valuable life skill. I remember one of the LDS church leaders not long ago, while talking to the men: "So you want the perfect girl. Gorgeous, smart, nice, spiritual, exactly what you want. Brethren, just think: why would this perfect girl be interested in you?" Point being, if you want the perfect girl, you had better be someone she wants in return. And frankly, most guys marry up. I know I did.
--Vance
Stories like this add evidence to my opinion that schools and states have completely failed in their duty to provide a healthy education to children.
I don't think AP courses are a good substitute for college level courses by a young adult. They are trying to push college down to age 16, and it is just a failure.
Children, under the age of 18, should not be given assignments they cannot handle without a chaperone.
If the teachers can't supervise the assignment, then they can't assign it. Children can wait until they are old enough to vote, or go to a state prison, before they explore life's options.
Amanda Marcotte bait.
Almost every person can get a date.
True, but that's not really the goal; the purpose of dating is to get a date with someone you like and who likes you, even if at an entirely superficial level. The date itself helps in determining whether there is any relationship there to pursue.
Mormons are sincerely, even obsessively, pro-life, which includes normalization of evolutionary functional orientations and behaviors. This includes dating, not merely friendships with "benefits" (a non-committal, juvenile form of polygamy). This character trait has brought them into confrontation with female chauvinists, liberals, progressives, transgenders, and other members of the Pro-Choice Church.
I liked the lessons in Gran Torino. And truth to tell, my memory of my early dating experiences was that it all started when girls decided I was worth being interested in--around the spring of my sophomore year in high school. I was always the youngest kid in my class (due to my birthdate, and the way schools determined age eligibility for first grade).
Well that is all way back in the way back; but once I figured out that the girls were in fact interested, I could handle it (badly at first) on my own thereafter. But somebody has to fire the starting gun in the dating race. And an 11th grade "assignment" like this is not necessarily a bad thing--for most kids. Now if you are closeted gay, transgender or whatever, it might be painful. That said, why should the 3% of the population control what the other 97% or so (your figures may vary, but the principle is still the same) do?
Ann--I'd forgotten that story. One more reason for me to love Gran Torino.
Happy belated birthday!
People say sexist like it's a bad thing. I suppose those folks think being an evolutionist is a bad thing as well.
Pardon the old fashioned thinking, but isn't it the parents job to help their kids figure these things out?
As a teenager, I had some terrific teachers, but I thought little of their views when they strayed beyond their subject expertise.
So, hmmm. If the list for the girls was created by boys and the list for the boys was created by girls and we're all supposed to be upset because the contents of the lists are sexist...is the objection that "reality is sexist?!" I mean, that the exercise demonstrates that the boys who created the list have sexist/traditional ideas about girls and the girls who created the list have sexist/traditional ideas about boys (how they should each behave, etc)--and we're supposed to think that's a terrible thing?
Is that...is that what we're supposed to be upset about? Or that the teacher/school allowed an assignment that included the requirement to go on a date? I'm just not connecting with the outrage, here, and I do so enjoy gettin' worked up over stuff that doesn't affect me at all.
It is obvious that the liberal elite of this country are not living in reality. They just are not. Heh
Said feminists everywhere and on every topic:
"That's not funny!"
Ann Althouse said...
"Where is the boys assignment? Perhaps it was equally insulting to delicate sensibilities."
I assume it was equally sexist.
But not equally discussed or criticized. Therein lies an issue.
Remember, also, that we are dealing with Mormons, who somehow have preserved many elements of the 1950's. That's quite an accomplishment, if you stop to think about it, even if you don't like the elements that have been preserved.
What I missed out on by going to an all boys school.
"we are dealing with Mormons, who somehow have preserved many elements of the 1950's. "
Yes, shameful. That may be why so many are CEOs of Fortune 500 corporations.
Who would want a successful life ?
My theory is that civilization is nearing it's end date. We're now in a time where people get bothered by this kind of stuff. Which means we're no longer worried about freezing, starving, fighting or flighting. We have the luxury to be offended. By this shit.
When it finally hits the fan, I know I'll be surviving. And I'm going to start by eating these overly sensitive, high calorie whiners.
...by August, we were married.
I was once in love with a beautiful Mexican maiden. But another wild Texas man came in and tried to woo her...
El Paso City, by the Rio Grande
A voice tells me to go and see
Another voice keeps tellin' me
Maybe death awaits me in El Paso
@Vance
That's fine for a church. The problem is when a public school requires it. This is the government and attendance is compulsory.
I have no problem with the church embracing these values and using these methods.
Ann Althouse said...
What I think is the worst thing about this assignment is that it assumes the person can get a date. What if no one you want to be with will have you? What if you are shy or very determined not to seem needy?
Gee, then you say to someone "I have a class assignment to go out on a date. Would you go out with me?"
You're not needy, you're doing your homework. This isn't brain surgery.
Swede said...My theory is that civilization is nearing it's end date.
Well, western civilization, anyway. With 1000 Muslims a day invading Europe, it seems that it is not an end, but a new beginning. God willing.
Public schools in Utah are located right next door to the local Mormon tabernacle. The architecture is exactly the same and they seem to be part of the same institution. Students are released each day to go next door for their religious instruction. Everybody knows that separation of church and state in Utah is a legal tissue of very thin skin. I don't agree with what Mormons believe, but Mormons are good people. I don't care if they do this.
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