... seemingly talking to himself and slapping the water. The man then reportedly threw a rock into the window of the residence, Koval said....UPDATE: "Man fatally shot by Madison police officer struggled with mental illness."
Koval said the first officer on the scene was waiting for backup when the intruder approached the doorway from inside the house with a four-pronged pitchfork....
The officer gave numerous orders to the man to stop, which he ignored, Koval said. “The person was aggressing, and the officer was compelled to shoot him,” he said.
Posts
83 comments:
Yes, I read this in the paper this morning, shortly after reading the blurb about "Progressive" Dane filing a lawsuit against the Chief to shut him up, essentially, because "Progressive" Dane doesn't like Free Speech.
Anyway, I will reserve comment except to say: Why did it take so long for backup to arrive? (Did it?) The timeline in the paper isn't described very well.
Concealed pitchfork or open carry?
If you put your Weed Pitchfork away after using it, this kind of thing doesn't happen.
...after he emerged from Lake Monona...
It was a trident, not a pitchfork.
Reads like suicide by cop to me.
Did it have a shoulder thing that goes up, a flash hider, or a bayonet lug? Such would make it an assault pitchfork. Those are especially heinous, and no farmer needs one of those. The Founding Fathers couldn't have envisioned such a pitchfork at the time of the Founding. Assault pitchforks must be banned, or Democrats will sit on the floor of the House of Representatives and fundraise off of it. Is there a National Pitchfork Association? They have blood on their hands.
The officer yelled, "Hey!"
The guy with the pitch fork heard, "Hay!" and came running.
Was the victim white? If so, not an issue.
rehajm said.....
It was a trident, not a pitchfork
The story says, "with a four-pronged pitchfork...."
It was a Quadrant.
Odd Lives Matter !!!
You have to be werry werry quiet when hunting Wepublicans.....
It was a Quadrant.
It was a pitchfourk.
Sounds like the cop didn't have a choice.
He had to shoot that crazy forker
"Aggressing"? Cop-report-speak is pretty bad English generally, but this is particularly atrocious. How about "he was threatening the officer with the weapon" or "he brandished the pitchfork at the officer."
Why was the DA on the scene? Not proper.
Mayor, maybe. The guy who might have to file charges, absolutely not.
Maybe when a cop kills someone who has not already shot a gun at the cop or someone else, the cop should not get a paid vacation immediately afterwards. Instead, maybe the cop, in such cases, should receive an automatic suspension without pay for 60 days regardless of the justification. Obviously, the supposed built-in incentive not to unnecessarily kill a depressed, suicidal or mentally ill person is not doing enough. I write having lost a relative to death by cop earlier this year. The guy, drunk and depressed and off his medications, waived a pen knife and yelled just shoot me, so a young cop (in no danger) did (multiple times) and he died. The Washington Post has been running a good series on this problem. All my life I have been very pro-police - the shooting of Michael Brown was 100% justified - but the police use deadly force much, much more often than they need to, in situations where a normal citizen dealing with the unbalanced person would never dream of shooting the person (multiple times) at center mass.
The Drill SGT said...
The story says, "with a four-pronged pitchfork...."
So it was a high-capacity pitchfork?
When you use an AR-15 with a pitchfork attached bayonet, it really becomes the proverbial assault weapon. It's the pitchfork, stupid. I guess he could not get it attached to the AR-15 quickly enough.
Picture of the deceased, from a happier time
Our favorite revolt of peasants image requires using a pitchfork. But why was not a Taser used on him? Maybe the fork would have swiped away the wires.
"The Wisconsin Professional Police Association also responded to the scene to provide field and legal assistance, ..." - WTH?
Did the Burgler's United Brotherhood and Victim's of Crime Association also arrive? Seems as though once again, only the privileged police get the support they need!
You may need a peasants and pitchforks tag as there are probably going to be more.
traditionalguy said...
Our favorite revolt of peasants image requires using a pitchfork. But why was not a Taser used on him? Maybe the fork would have swiped away the wires.
a Taser is not a sure thing. especially, if the guy is running at you with a big forked stick in front to catch wires.
besides, the pistol is set up for a fast draw. The taser is often on the opposite hip, requiring both presence of mind and a cross-body draw. when fractions of second make the difference in becoming a Kebab...
John said...
"The Wisconsin Professional Police Association also responded to the scene to provide field and legal assistance, ..." - WTH? !
Welcome to policing, post Ferguson. When every shooting is assumed bad, cops are learning the cant.
1. He threatened to kill me
2. I was afraid for my life
3. I'm really shook up and can't talk right now, please get with my lawyer...
as for the Burgler's United Brotherhood? I suspect he was white, so no the BUB would not be called out, nor a three Reverend Team from the BLM local.
It is reported that the pitchfork had four prongs, not three. It had a non conductive anti slip handle grip. The prong tines were less that eleven and three quarter inches long. It had an unloaded weight of less than 50 ounces.
Yup, make no mistake about it, this was an assault pitchfork.
Cops are beating up, restraining, and shooting people in Madison.
Now you're a real city run by Democrats.
The officer is obviously not a fan of vintage Kung Fu movies.
4-tines is a manure fork.
You want as few tines as possible so it goes into whatever it's supposed to lift easily but without the material falling through.
Dallas News loves and lies for Clock Boy.
"Ahmed Mohamed ... no longer surprised when people recognize him since his arrest at Irving’s MacArthur High School in September, when a homemade clock he brought to school was mistaken for a bomb."
It wasn't a homemade clock and it wasn't mistaken for a bomb.
The news report is unclear. But I envision it as officer on porch, perhaps in the doorway. Apparently crazed individual charges him with pitchfork.
Option 1) Retreat in the dark across unfamiliar territory in the dark or 2) Shoot.
You shoot.
Do Madison cops wear body cameras?
We have the video of this strange man!
"Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
Madison can sleep easy tonight...
The dead man was not in Jesse Williams radar.
professor, i don't mean to intrude on your madison police force post, but...i think drudge is drudgtapositioning again and riffing off your hands analysis from yesterday. maybe he reads Althouse. it's lynch in a pinch, does she flinch with bill giving a thumbs up and a "close" advisor saying she's got to go down. plus there are other images including a hand.
"aggressing". Oooh, a new word. I like it.
Virgil Hilts at 8:18 AM
... the cop should not get a paid vacation immediately afterwards ... I write having lost a relative to death by cop earlier this year. The guy, drunk and depressed and off his medications, waived a pen knife and yelled just shoot me, so a young cop (in no danger) did (multiple times) and he died.
The young police officer has a right to a professional investigation and judgment of his actions. The officer's description of the event probably will contradict your family's interpretation of the event.
Officers under such investigations are not suspended so that they can enjoy paid vacations. One reason for such suspensions is that the killed person might have vengeful relatives who have made up their minds that the officer had not been in danger and had killed their relative unnecessarily.
You acknowledge that Ferguson's police officer Darren Wilson was "100% justified" in shooting in self-defense while being attacked by strong-arm robber Michael Brown. Should the Ferguson Police Department then have sent Wilson on patrol in Ferguson during the following days, while neighborhood mobs were looting and burning down stores?
Millions of people all over the USA were certain that a Ferguson police officer had murdered Brown, who was standing still, raising his hands and pleading words of surrender. Three "witnesses" appeared on national television repeatedly to describe the murder in vivid detail.
Many Scientific Progressives were trying to identify the officer, intending to publicize his home address to vengeful mobs so that he might be dragged out of his home and lynched from a lamp post. Those were the circumstances of this Ferguson police officer's "paid vacation".
The three "witnesses" were lying. None of the three saw Wilson shooting Brown. They told their lies to incite the looting and arson that subsequently happened. Millions of people all over the USA fell for their lies and still believe them and would like Wilson to suffer for "executing" Brown "for jay-walking".
http://people-who-did-not-see.blogspot.com/2015/04/this-blog-provides-better-answer-to.html
You have some confused people in Madison. Pitchforks are for politicians, not cops!
The police were called because a man was wading in the lake? Would it have been necessary to shoot him if the police were never there in the first place?
Virgil Hilts at 8:18 AM
... maybe the cop, in such cases, should receive an automatic suspension without pay for 60 days ...
A police officer under investigation is considered to be innocent until proved guilty. If he eventually is found guilty, his punishment can include a monetary fine to recover wages he received while suspended.
I assume that in your own profession, Virgil, there is no rule that professionals are suspended without pay automatically for 60 days while being investigated. As an experiment, propose such a rule in your own profession and then see how many of your own colleagues would support such a rule.
@Virgil -
I am sorry to hear about your brother - that must be a very hard thing to live with. I hope your family comes though it soon.
-XC
Virgil, your first sentence illustrates a rather incomplete understanding, dare I say, abysmal ignorance, of what constitutes a deadly weapon. "Not a gun" does not make something less dangerous than a gun. And many things are more dangerous than a gun. A pitchfork, usually a regular tool, becomes when misused at close distances (say, as far as a person could throw one) a very deadly weapon indeed.
Demonization of tools leads to oddly irrational thinking, in general, and in your case, it displays an apparent animosity against an entire category of tool that is legally owned an not misused daily by some 90,000,000 to 150,000,000 US citizens daily.
tim maguire said...
The police were called because a man was wading in the lake?
As I read it:
1. guy in the lake acting weird
2. comes out, chucks a BFR (big F'ing rock) through a window.
3. at some point during 1 and 2, 911 is called
4. man enters the house and residents flee for their lives
5. cop arrives between steps 2 and 5
6. man exits the house menacing a deadly weapon and confronts a cop
7. cop issues numerous commands to halt, man aggresses holding deadly weapon and gets shot
Lots of real funny comments here. Guy on drugs, or off his meds is dead. Cop has to live with his decision. Hilarity ensues.
I won't go into my usual rant about free-ranging insane, but I think killing a person who's brain is damaged is the most compassionate thing society can do.
These poor people suffer unreasonably, and euthanasia, before ending-up or causing a violent death or mass murder, is compassionate.
If I become insane, I would want my fellow man to put me to sleep. Ignore my attempts to prevent it, as it is merely a self-survival instinct, and not important.
I think the criminally insane should be removed from the prisons, euthanized, and their bodies burned to generate electricity.
We could call it "Love Power" where we love the insane by powering our factories with their glow in the furnace.
If I don't know the facts--and I don't know the facts--my bias is towards the police officer, and properly so. There are some societies where the cops are part of the criminal class, but that's simply not true of America........It's quite easy to make the wrong decision when you perceive your life to be in mortal danger. You have to give the cops a little slack in questionable situations.
I've heard the expression "Suicide by Cop" a few times the last couple of days. I have no idea if this is the case here, or just someone with mental/drug issues.
But still, how cruel do you have to be to use someone to facilitate your own lack of testicular fortitude?
Police officers (and military as well) have to live with the fact that they have killed a fellow human being for the rest of their lives. I can't imagine the heartache. Compound that by the anger that it would be done to you deliberately.
Perhaps people should stop calling the police when a madman breaks into their house wielding a knife, gun or pitchfork. Ask yourself what you think the police should do (think quickly as the weapon advances toward you) and if you think the police should not use force then you should be able to handle the situation yourself. So then, do it.
That's fine. I don't even think cops should have to try to flee until backup+nonlethals can subdue. If you attack a man with a gun, you choose death.
He may have aimed to disable him, but criticism should be withheld until after a review of the circumstances.
Good thoughtful comments from Mike Sylwester
"the cops are part of the criminal class, but that's simply not true of America."
Except in a few places and at a few times, like Chicago a couple of times.
The current Department of Justice is leaning that way.
I scrolled through all the comments to see if anyone mentioned race. Nope so both shooter and shootee must be white.
The guy must have been white. Otherwise the story would already have been racialized. So what's the problem?
Normally in daylight you can see the look in the eye of the man who is threatening you with your life.
Depending on that look, you may decide not to use lethal force, or bitch-slap him.
At night? All bets are off.
coupe said...
'......If I become insane, I would want my fellow man to put me to sleep. Ignore my attempts to prevent it, as it is merely a self-survival instinct, and not important.
Yeah. Who defines insane? Do you talk to animals, Coupe? Seems crazy to me. Do you loke old, pollution spewing automobiles? Might seem insane when 90% of scientists (and most politicians) agree you are contributing to the death of mankind via AGW..
I'm with Virgil. Not necessarily on the specifics, but on the fact that cops need better training to handle crazy people, even violent crazy people, with different and better methods.
It's not about the law itself. Many killings, including this one, may be legally justifiable, but at the same time unnecessary. Police officers, speaking generally, have a "comply or else" attitude, and with absurdly belligerent or crazy people, that often escalates situations where a calmer attitude, focused on deescalating tension rather than demanding immediate compliance or else, would keep everybody safer.
Take a confused crazy person and start yelling at him and ordering him around at the top of your lungs, and you're nearly guaranteed to escalate the problem. If, instead, you keep everybody at a safe distance (here, it's a pitchfork, not a gun), and not try to resolve the problem immediately by screaming for compliance in a confused and chaotic environment, you're much more likely to get a better result.
Fernandinande: "It wasn't a homemade clock and it wasn't mistaken for a bomb."
You are so right. The cops arrested the kid not for bring a bomb to school or anything they thought was a bomb. Everyone knew it wasn't a bomb. They arrested him (properly in my opinion) for bringing a hoax bomb to school, which is still a felony.
Yet the kid framed it as "the stupid cops arrested me for bringing my homemade clock to school" and the media (not to mention the Obama administration) bought it hook line and sinker. They made a kid, who did nothing more than take an ordinary electric clock out of its case and mount it a little aluminum attache case, into a science genius. That boy knew exactly what he was doing. With his father's guidance, no doubt, he was looking for a cause celeb. After he was a media hero he went around the country talking about "my invention." He didn't invent anything other than a new way to scam the media which was more than pleased to make a Muslim boy in into a science genius oppressed by racist cops.
FullMoon said...Who defines insane?
Governments.
I agree with Virgil, too, and I see nothing funny about the subject. I teach disabled 14-21 year olds, some of whom are mentally ill (psychosis, schizophrenia, bipolar). From the behaviors described, this gentleman sounds as if he may have been mentally ill. I don't see how it was necessary to kill him for brandishing a pitchfork, but I wasn't there, so I'll reserve judgment. It's sad, though. I often wonder if any of my students will be killed someday by police called to his/her home. I can definitely see how it could happen. But we, in a public school setting, are trained to stay calm, de-escalate and to restrain properly (or retreat), if needed. Why can't police seem to use these methods? I'm not anti-police, but I definitely hear way too many stories like this where an elderly person with dementia or a family pet or a mentally ill person is killed. There's no way it's justified or acceptable in many of these cases.
VH
Give me an open knife and twenty feet and I can have that knife through the cops heart before he can clear his holster.
High, stupid, or crazy. You don't threaten people with a pitchfork.
Stupid people die in stupid ways.
The herd has one less weak member.
I was being a little sarcastic about unpaid leave and I would probably not really support that approach. But we do have a problem.
In several cases (including the one I have a connection to - not a blood relative) a family member or girlfriend calls the police for help because the person was acting irrational and needed help - not because they were threatening to hurt any one. This is explained on the call to police, but the police nevertheless show up and shoot the peson to death within 60 seconds.
When I first moved to Phoenix there was a young Hispanic kid maybe 15 or 16 in one of the less affluent areas who broke up with his girlfriend, was holding a knife in his backyard and sobbing hysterically that he did not want to go on, etc. His mother calls the police - please, please come help my son, he is acting crazy and threatening to kill himself. They came and put more than 40 bullets into his body while his mom watched. Were they justified under the law? - sure, he probably refused to drop the knife. I am not sure that this is the only thing that matters.
"Everyone knew it wasn't a bomb. They arrested him (properly in my opinion) for bringing a hoax bomb to school, which is still a felony."
That is a weird story and I cannot figure out what the Obama people are doing with it.
The whole thing reminds me of The Flying Imams which was probably a dry run for another terror attack. One day, somebody, maybe a kid, will bring something like that to school and it WILL be a bomb.
"Give me an open knife and twenty feet and I can have that knife through the cops heart before he can clear his holster. "
Yup. The rule is "Charge an gun and run from a knife." The gun may jam and it can reach you at 100 yards. The knife is deadly at 10 feet.
The Israelis are learning this every week.
Forces searching for the cause of the breach heard screams coming from the house and raced in to find the girl with multiple stab wounds in her bed, according to Channel 10. One of the guards hurried to her to provide first aid and was jumped by the attacker who managed to stab him.
The girl’s father and other guards fired shots at the attacker, killing him, and also wounding the responding guard.
"They came and put more than 40 bullets into his body while his mom watched. Were they justified under the law?"
Link to an article on that?
On the plus side, I heard on the radio news that Madison is one of the safest cities in the country to drive in. At least according to State Farm.
Someone should invent a net gun.
The strings would have to be very small to keep the gun small. Silk maybe.
rehajm wrote: It was a trident, not a pitchfork
The drill SGT replied: The story says, "with a four-pronged pitchfork...." It was a Quadrant.
Well, it's obvious what went down. Here in the post-map age the guy needed some assistance finding his way to the Walmart on Royal Avenue, but his Garmin was fritzed. I need a navigation instrument, he reasoned, and went in search of a quadrant for his inventory bag. Using the "look" command he discovered a quadent, a four-tined fork. Misreading he tried to apply the quadent to the navigation problem and ended up in Lake Monona, which caused him to erupt in unfocused anger and frustration.
BTW, speaking as one who has been on the sweat end of a manure fork much too often I can say four tines is six tines too few.
Someone should invent a net gun.
Someone has.
Since the guy who was shot was a kind of retiarius, he should have had the net gun.
Drinkwater sayeth: " I don't see how it was necessary to kill him for brandishing a pitchfork, but I wasn't there, so I'll reserve judgment. It's sad, though."
He wasn't "brandishing" the pitchfork. He was moving towards the officer as if to attack, and continuing after several orders to stop. You also are not reserving judgment. You made a judgment, and then hedged it a bit.
It is sad, for the man, his family and the police officer. I doubt he wanted to kill anyone, but he does not have to do a mental health evaluation when he is in danger.
It's not often one thinks, "Oh! If only I had a net right now!" But I think that would have been my exact thought if I had been this police officer.
Do any police departments reach hand-to-hand combat? I mean, really, shoot a guy with a clumsy pitchfork?
Do any police departments teach hand-to-hand combat?
If you have a pistol on your hip, how do you fight someone hand-to-hand? The opponent will try to take your weapon, will he not? There are holsters that are designed to prevent that, but bad guys with the knowledge can draw the weapon nevertheless. Officers are taught to use the gun. Those who chose to grapple with an "armed" opponent get disciplined or fired.
Years ago one of the arms manufacturers invented a technology designed to make a stolen weapon useless to the opponent. It consisted of an electronic trigger cutoff and a ring or bracelet worn by the officer on his shooting hand. The ring disabled the cutoff mechanism allowing the gun to fire. Theoretically an opponent, not wearing the ring but wielding a firearm taken from an officer, would find the weapon useless. I don't know what became of the project.
The Drill SGT said...
Doug said...I mean, really, shoot a guy with a clumsy pitchfork?
We don't expect our cops to make every fight a fair one, when the stakes are:
1. Cop wins, he just gets hurt, perp goes to jail
2. Perp wins, cop dies
said differently:
What do you call the knife fighter who ends up in the hospital?
the winner
Well, some fairly uneducated comments here.
if someone armed with a pitchfork runs at you, you'd better shoot him (assuming you're armed), because otherwise, unless you can run much faster than the pitchfork guy and you don't trip, you're going to die. You can't count on a taser, or talk to the fellow, or stand back, or do any of the other idiotic things suggested here. I see "brandished' as though this means someone is just standing around, holding a ptchfork and otherwise being passive. It was a pitchfork, not a pen knife, not a rock, not a million other things, but a great big broom handle with a shovel-sized four-pronged sharp stabbing instrument on the end, long enough to pierce your body and exit the other side. It doesn't matter of the person running at you wth the pitchfork is having a crisis, or is high, or is sick or is angry at his cat, or whatever. If he stabs you, you will die, so you need to shoot him to keep that from happening. If he turns around and runs back in the house, where you don't know if there are innocent people, he might kill someone else. So you need to stop that too. You, as the cop, have not defined the actions. The man with the pitchfork has, and if he has some issue, well, too bad because now that issue is affecting other people besides himself, and they become the priority, not pitchfork boy, who has become secondary. Hopefully, no one will get hurt. But if someone is going to get injured, it's going to be the guy with the pitchfork.
Oh, BTW, bullet-resistant vests do not protect against stabbing instruments. Especially thin blades (or tines) easily pierce the average cop's vest. Corrections officers wear a special stabbing resistant version of the vest.
Do police departments teach hand-to-hand combat? Actually, in most places, the answer is probably No. Departments are afraid that cops will beat someone up and the department will be liable, so they don't teach boxing or karate, etc and don't encourage it. That's why we see so much Taser/pepper spray/shocking, all that stuff these days. it's called non-lethal force and it's a huge industry, based on limited civil liability for government units. That's also why sometimes you see an over-use of force by cops when suddenly, they realize that stupid taser isn't working and they panic. The days of the old wooden nightstick are long gone.
@ David Begley -
Prosecutors normally respond to all deadly use of force by cops, so they have a first hand acquaintance with the locale and the physical set-up, the lighting conditions, the weather, etc.
@ Doug -
With all due respect, do you really think that an unarmed person is going to take an equal who has a pitchfork? That would be about a 30 second match with the loser pinned to a wall like a butterfly. You do not have a sense of your own mortality.
@ the Drill Sgt
re knife fights, I agree. There is no way we ever found to defend against a determined person with a knife, except a firearm from distance or maybe a 63 Dodge. You might win but you are going to feel some pain. Oh, multiple defenders worked sometimes, with clubs. Sometimes.
With all due respect, do you really think that an unarmed person is going to take an equal who has a pitchfork?
have used a pitchfork, have trained with a rifle and bayonet. Seems to me they fight the same way. The fight against a man without a gun or some sort of staff is going to take 10 seconds. a couple of short thrusts. The smart defender is going to try and get inside on the fork guy, until he meets the butt of the fork coming from the right in a horizontal buttstroke, and then a coup de grace to his throat while on the ground, head ringing
Ozanne looks pissed off that he had to get out of bed for white guy who got himself shot.
I'm not sure who "Drinkwater" is, but since you quoted me, I'll assume you meant me, David. You said, "He wasn't "brandishing" the pitchfork. He was moving towards the officer as if to attack, and continuing after several orders to stop. You also are not reserving judgment. You made a judgment, and then hedged it a bit." First of all, I read the entire article, and it said he "approached the doorway from inside the house with a four-pronged pitchfork." Brandish means "to wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement." I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the man was "brandishing" the pitchfork, so I'm not sure why you're picking apart my word choice. Also, I merely said I don't see (from what I read) how it was necessary to kill him. I did, in fact, reserve judgement because I said I wasn't there, thus acknowledging that I don't know exactly how the events unfolded. Perhaps it actually was necessary to shoot him. Either way, it's a shame for all involved.
Aww, shut up. You would be dead so soon, if you let loonies charge you with a pitchfork, in a doorway.
Loonies need to be kept in cells.
Loonies that get loose, and don't take their medications, and think that sloshing along a lakeside, looking to attack a darkened, or otherwise advantageous target, are a result of letting loonies loose and HOPING that they take their medications. Tracking devices, for loonies on the loose, would help cops to back off, and let the net throwers do their jobs.
Or am I wrong.
PLEASE (heh) set me straight.
O (tolerant, flexible, compassionate, loving, understanding, drug peddling, apologetic, no-clue, indoctrinated, shit-for-brains, all-knowing etc. opponents to common sense dillweeds). What the fuck is your answer?
I am not FredwinaD
Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted pitchfork.
Post a Comment