Have you noticed the overuse of the notion of "qualification" in this election cycle? It irritates me. It sounds so high-handed to declare the other person "disqualified."
Bernie Sanders asserted that Hillary had said that he's "not qualified to be president," and he took off on her:
"I don't believe that she is qualified if she is, through her super PAC, taking tens of millions of dollars in special interest funds. I don't think that you are qualified if you get $15 million from Wall Street through your Super PAC. I don't think you are qualified if you have voted for the disastrous war in Iraq. I don't think you are qualified if you've supported virtually every disastrous trade agreement, which has cost us millions of decent-paying jobs."In fact, Bernie's assertion about Hillary was rated "mostly false" by Politifact. She avoided — even when pushed — using that word against him. She was cagey enough to respond to "Is he qualified?" with a list of his supposed shortcomings and "that does raise a lot of questions." Bernie's assertion that Hillary is unqualified brought out the indignant supporters:
Prominent surrogates for Mrs. Clinton such as Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York and Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri vouched for her qualifications and warned that Mr. Sanders was crossing the line.Having lived through the Bernie-and-Hillary back-and-forth over who's "qualified," I was annoyed by Romney's approach. We already knew how much Romney opposes Trump. It might be desirable that presidential candidates release their tax returns, but it's not on the level of being 35 years old and a natural-born citizen.
“Calling Hillary Clinton not qualified is like fingernails on a black board to many women across this country, and I think Bernie probably knows that,” Ms. McCaskill told MSNBC on Thursday.
Spare me the q-word.
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130 comments:
Mitt knows a lot about how to lose.
An endorsement from de Blasio is like an endorsement from Denny Hastert, likely to do more harm than good. As for being qualified, any natural born citizen over 35 is qualified. Being a good President is another thing, but I can't really see how revealing one's tax returns determines leadership ability.
I agree that it's a ridiculous form of sniping, but let's be real: they aren't qualified. I see no reason to spare you or anyone else this simple fact: no human being is qualified to hold the unilateral power of life and death over seven billion people, and that's what Clinton, Bush, and Obama have consolidated in the office of the presidency.
The selection of a qualified candidate is not an option. Only the possibility of harm mitigation remains.
Romney has revealed an arrogance in this election cycle that was evident in previous cycles but was not so pronounced.
Mormon Mitt wants to rule us. He is qualified by Joseph Smith's Prophecy and the Angel Moroni. But that stubborn Presbyterian Trump is not only not submitting to the chosen ones, he is totally laughing at them for the strange games they play.
If Trump were a normal candidate I would agree that he should release his tax forms before the election. But Trump is the 'fuck you' candidate and as such he can pretty much do whatever he wants. It is a sweet spot politically.
Qualified means affirmative action hire in common use.
Of course "qualifications" matter, even beyond the bare Constitutional requirements. If someone were 35 and a natural born citizen, and also in a coma, would you say "it's out of bounds to question their qualifications!"? Of course not.
Whether Romney's hurdle (tax returns) qualifies as a qualification (see what I did there) is another question. I think it's a good idea for media and political parties to insist on a certain baseline of transparency from candidates, such as financial (tax returns, etc.) and medical issues. Would you hire someone for an important job without checking their relevant background?
And Hillary is certainly not qualified for the presidency if we consider "ability to do the job above a minimum of competency and ethics" to be a qualification. She has a long trail of corruption and incompetence mixed with personal traits that make her a danger to the Oval Office.
Nobody talks about quantified anymore.
"decent-paying" jumps out to me.
It used to be "well-paying".
As for the releasing of tax returns, I don't think that could have been much of an issue before 1913.
Has anyone asked Trump to release his medical records?
The US Constitution requires that a US President be a natural-born citizen, and therefore the electorate should be provided the government's best information about a Presidential candidate's birth circumstances.
Nevertheless, Barack Obama refused for four years to provide his original birth certificate -- a state-government's one-page civil-registry document from the year 1961. Ultimately, because Donald Trump raised the issue when Obama began to run for re-election, Obama did release it, a process that took him less than one week.
The people who demanded that Mitt Romney release his income-tax documents for ten years are the very same people who have relentlessly denounced the reasonable request that Obama release that state-government's one-page civil-registry document from the year 1961.
In the case of Obama's birth certificate, citizens were accused of being racists if they insisted on seeing the best evidence, which was the original document. Those citizens were racists if they refused to be satisfied by a summary written by an anonymous government clerk.
The Constitution's natural-citizen requirement is enforced not by the courts, but rather by the electorate and the by Electoral College. Therefore, the government should provide to the public its best information about any Presidential candidate's birth circumstances when the reasonable doubts are raised. Reasonable requests for government documents should be satisfied civilly instead of being denounced as racist. The candidates themselves should civilly facilitate the release of such government documents instead of mocking the requests.
I made this argument in the case of Barack Obama and again in the case of Ted Cruz.
There is no Constitutional requirement related to a Presidential candidate's payment of income taxes. There is a requirement related to a candidate's birth.
The necessary qualifications for being elected to the presidency are set forth in the Constitution.
As for Romney, I don't understand what he is doing. Colloquially speaking, I guess that, like Jeb!, he is now showing that he really is not qualified to be president.
THe WaPo has 20 investigator's assigned to find dirt on Trump. So why should Trump help them out. Make them earn their money.
Has the Hildebeast released all of her medical records? Has the Trumpster?
She's Constitutionally qualified, but her repeated failures and exercise of poor judgement argue against her being a suitable President.
If Hillary continues to make it an issue Trump could counter with, "This from a woman who won't release the transcripts from her quarter million dollar speeches to Wall Street insiders and big banks?"
(And yes, STFU, Mitt. And go away! I didn't like the last-time-loser injecting himself into the primaries when it was still a horse race. Now I just don't see the point unless you are rooting for Hillary.)
The presidential elections have become sort of a giant TV reality survival show with the candidates playing bit parts with ad hoc dialogues, but according to the general plot layout.
If anything, The Donald has shown he is "qualified" to be president by coming in from the outside and taking over the production and running it his way.
Dear Mitt Romney
Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect whatever money the DNC is paying you to undercut the presumptive Republican nominee.
Stronger message to follow.
(signed)
Big Mike
Once again, Romney and the establishment demonstrate that they prefer Democratic insiders to Republican outsiders.
Well, perhaps like we learned yesterday in regards to UW's monetarily rewarded marital nepotism hiring system, Hillary is the only qualified person to be President of the United States.
Obama has lowered the qualifications bar for everyone.
You're right, Mittens, that qualification, of releasing tax returns, is right there, in the Constitution's Article II. Everyone can see the words; after all, they're in plain black-and-white.
I remember quite clearly the famous orations of Washington, Madison, Roger Sherman, during that Summer of 1787, underscoring the need to see income tax returns of candidates for president.
In the most important sense voters did not find Mitt qualified. And he lost to the worst president ever. A guy who wasn't qualified even after four years on the job. Ouch.
Is it disqualifying to be a criminal? Not with the magic Deee!
Bloom County is on it
I appreciate Mitt Romney's desire to influence members of the Republican Party but he's having the opposite effect.
This will be an election of tribalism/party loyalty (i.e. "My team's great; your's is a piece of shit") and voter turnout ("No good choices, I think I'll sit this one out.")
At least now we're talking about people on the right AND the left not voting for the party nominee.
Rapid fans go to the game with silly makeup and garb, others stay home and watch the game on the big screen TV with cheaper food and beer. And some just watch NFL red zone to get all the highlights of all of the games.
Wow, the "law prof" does know that there is a requirement that the President SHALL be a natural born Citizen to EVEN BE CONSIDERED (eligible).
Mike Sylvester said:
"The Constitution's natural-citizen requirement is enforced not by the courts, but rather by the electorate and the by Electoral College. Therefore, the government should provide to the public its best information about any Presidential candidate's birth circumstances when the reasonable doubts are raised. Reasonable requests for government documents should be satisfied civilly instead of being denounced as racist. The candidates themselves should civilly facilitate the release of such government documents instead of mocking the requests".
All requests to verify the birth circumstances of the Usurper Obama have been thwarted, mainly by the protective useful idiot media, and by the useful idiots in the Ivory Tower of Academia (such as the "law prof", Turley, Tribe, et al.).
A picture on a website is proof of NOTHING, but Obama has already admitted to the fact that makes him ineligible. He was born a British subject (and still may be) of a British subject father. The well known reason for the natural born requirement is PREVENTION OF FOREIGN INFLUENCE, so it is impossible that one born in a foreign country, or of foreign parentage is eligible. Cruz is OBVIOUSLY not eligible, but in the future they will say that he "was considered eligible" and therefore the NWO criminals are amending the Constitution by Usurpation, right before your eyes. It is important to the Globalists that they degrade the office of POTUS, but somehow it is not important to the American people.
History will spit on the names Barack Hussein Obama, Rafael Cruz and Marco Rubio for their part as supposed "Constitutional scholars" in the degradation of the office of POTUS.
One reason "disqualified" grates is that it's an attempt to shut down debate. Instead of presenting the idea that disclosure of tax returns might be important, it's a declaration that nondisclosure is a nonstarter.
Birthers, gotta love 'em.
"In the most important sense voters did not find Mitt qualified. And he lost to the worst president ever. A guy who wasn't qualified even after four years on the job. Ouch."
Whatever you think of Obama the president, Obama the candidate was no easy mark. Hillary is FAR more vulnerable than Obama ever was--the biggest mistake Republicans made was to keep underestimating him and believe their own (inaccurate) polling right up to election day. But he was a far better campaigner than anyone the Dems put up in at least a generation.
BTW, Polifact is picking at a nit when it focuses on whether Hillary Clinton personally said Bernie was not qualified to be president and rated it "Mostly False." Her campaign is pushing that line and her weasel-worded response to a planted question was intended to keep pushing that line.
Moreover, what about Bernie's charges in response? Are they "Mostly False"? I think not.
A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for corruption on an epic scale.
Obama has never released his college transcripts. How is one's tax return important when there are professionals whose only job is to examine tax returns for error and/or fraud? Isn't more important to know whether the candidate is actually as smart as the propaganda machine claims he is? Also shouldn't we know whether the candidate is unduly religious — i.e. likely to do something rash because his doctrinal orthodoxy might demand it? For example I don't think we ever got a straight answer to the magic underwear question.
Dear Mitt:
STFU!
If I never hear your name again, it will be too soon.
If you put half the energy into your own campaign that you've put into denigrating Trump, you'd be running for reelection now.
Again, STFU!
(Of course, an actual endorsement from Mitt would be the kiss of death. He's really doing Donald a solid.)
If you ran a losing campaign, I would suggest your advice to the current crop be taken with a grain pepper. That would include McCain, the Mittster, and Bob Dull. Especially the Mittster - he coulda/shoulda beaten Obama like a drum.
"BTW, Polifact is picking at a nit when it focuses on whether Hillary Clinton personally said Bernie was not qualified to be president and rated it "Mostly False." Her campaign is pushing that line and her weasel-worded response to a planted question was intended to keep pushing that line."
That's Clinton's M.O.--leave the unsavory stuff to surrogates so she can disown it but still let it get out there. She did the same thing with the "birther" stuff and of course her media defenders act as though she had nothing to do with it. Slick!
Actually, Trump is being brilliant about his tax returns.
The IRS audits him, almost every year. They take great pleasure in raking him and his companies over the coals. They can prolong the pain and show him who is REALLY the boss. The IRS does this to all sorts of people but Trump has been the plum in their arsenal of toying with the public.
In previous years, all that Trump or anyone else could do is just bear it. The grind of information they ask. The petty power plays by frustrated asocial drones in the IRS. Grit your teeth and just let your CPA or in Trump's case army of CPA's and lawyers take care of the problem. It is expensive and many a small business or smaller tax payer is driven out of businesses, into bankruptcy or suicide.
THIS time, however, Trump has the upper hand. (I was going to say trump card, but that is too trite). There is no rule or law that says you have to submit your tax returns. It is just a convention that has arisen. So. Trump can legally say that he WILL release his returns when they have been audited and amended. In fact, until the audit is complete and amendments have been made the returns are useless.
Now....the ball is in the IRS's court. They can just keep on auditing, dragging it out and attempting to prolong the pain....their usual M.O. Now, Trump can point out how long it takes, how expensive it is and how often the IRS does this not just to him but to anyone who looks cross eyed at the IRS or at Obama or who falls out of favor with the crushing government. People already HATE the IRS. This will make them even more sympathetic to Trump.
The IRS has to grit their teeth and bear the scrutiny of the public or just hurry up and finish the audit. A quickened audit means that they cannot inflict all the pain and suffering that they wish and will hurt their little psychopathic hearts...thereby giving Trump a better outcome on the audit than he would otherwise have.
As always...a win win for Trump and lemonade from the lemons.
Yes do spare us the q-word, Mitt. You freaking loser. You've fought harder against Trump than you ever did against Obama -- and I guess that's exactly how we came to have Trump lead the party, ain't it!?!?
Now strap your gaddamned dog to your roof and go away!
"In fact, Bernie's assertion about Hillary was rated "mostly false" by Politifact."
They would also rate the statement "Adolf Hitler was one of the worst mass murderers in history" mostly false...because, after all, he didn't pull the trigger or turn on the gas.
Dumb statement. Dumber to use it in an argument.
I am awaiting Hillary's release of the transcripts/tapes of her "Wall Street Speeches"!
Blogger AReasonableMan said...Romney has revealed an arrogance in this election cycle that was evident in previous cycles but was not so pronounced. AND If Trump were a normal candidate I would agree that he should release his tax forms before the election. But Trump is the 'fuck you' candidate and as such he can pretty much do whatever he wants. It is a sweet spot politically.
I don't often agree with ARM, but his calls here are on the money.
Politifact.
The very notion that an opinionated fish wrap like the NYT claims to rate the statement and claims of politicians on a scale of objective truth — and a lot of people actual believe in their objectivity — is an index of just how arrogant the editorial staff of the Gray Bag Lady is, and how willingly gullible its readers are.
AReasonableMan said...If Trump were a normal candidate I would agree that he should release his tax forms before the election. But Trump is the 'fuck you' candidate and as such he can pretty much do whatever he wants. It is a sweet spot politically."
Best analysis of the Trump phenomenon I've seen. That's why none of the dirt WaPo is digging for Trump treasures nor any of Hillary's oppo research will yield any treasures. It's a gigantic waste of money because Trump, like Achilles, was dipped into the a River Styx and no arrow can pierce him. Obama had the same shield, his being the first black president, and try as Fox might, they could never find those two vulnerable heels. Trump's FU armor is beyond amazing. He was asked by an advisor what will he do if they discover some dirt in his tax returns just before the election. His answer: I'll say they're not mine.
He's performance art. I think he can't lose ... unless somebody can find those heels.
Keep in mind that Mitt Romney was forcibly politically sodomized by his coreligionist, Harry Reid, who vilely slandered him as only a Senator on the Senate floor can, by telling perfectly filthy lies to the effect that he had done something wrong with his taxes. Mitt warmed himself up with a Laslo Special but to no avail - Harry just wanted to see him squirm, that and of course not get elected.
So now, naturally, Mitt believes in dildos for everyone.
But Trump don't play that.
Spare me the q-word.
Althouse is much too polite when the situation calls for brutal candor. (Brutal candor, another weapon for your rhetorical armory. Shelve it next to cruel neutrality.)
Spare me the q-word, m-word f-word.
M Jordan,
Just for accuracy, Achilles had only one vulnerable heel, the one by which he was held when dipped.
I don't blame Romney, I blame the Republican establishment for foisting him on us in 2012.
Well, on second thought, I blame Romney too. For not dropping out after determining that he wasn't interested in winning.
Unknown: I did not know that. All these years I thought his mother held him by two heels. Are you sure?
Romney's use of exaggerated language to criticize Trump is too much. Has every major party candidate been expected to release their returns? Has Trump done one thing to suggest there may be irregularities in his financial filings? What right does the public have to peer into the private transactions of a man like Trump who is the only person brave enough to raise immigration as an issue. Did Romney have the guts to even mention immigration four years ago?
But it is the use of the word "disqualified" that is the most aggravating. When Mr. Trump has been so careful with his criticisms of others, Romney's loose talk is beyond frustrating. Trump pointed out that the National Enquirer has gotten some stories correct in the past, like the whole John Edwards business, when he used it as evidence that Cruz's father was in on the Kennedy assassination. Who does Romney think he is, with that voice that sounds like he's putting other people down? You just know he thinks he's better than you. Trump is one of us. One of us.
"...taking tens of millions of dollars in special interest funds. I don't think that you are qualified if you get $15 million from Wall Street through your Super PAC.
Disqualifying: $1.5 million each from ten special interest donors.
Not disqulifying: $10.00 each from 1.5 million personss all donating for the same special reason.
So what's the disqualification threshold, Bernie? $14.995 million?
VERY well put, D.B.Q. @ 9:02.
Romney is wrong that tax returns reveal wealth. Unless Trump sells a work of art or a home or an investment, it's not reported on a tax return. Derek Jeter is a wealthy man but his income is a lot lower now.
If you judge Presidential qualification by the amount of votes received during the primary season, then Trump is more qualified than Romney.
I don't think any of this is about Romney's convictions. His ass is just chapped.
Trump and Ryan meet to today. That's relevant. Romney isn't.
Mitt who? Does anybody even know this guy? Who voted for him, his dog?
M Jordan said...
Unknown: I did not know that. All these years I thought his mother held him by two heels. Are you sure?
5/12/16, 9:33 AM
I am sure, and a quick googling backs me up. Left heel. My original source is the D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths, (http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943 if the hostess can convert this to a commission-paying link), backed up by college reading I cannot recall to cite.
We voters will decide who is unqualified. I only wish someone was running who is.
Distaste of the word qualification aside, why isn't Trump releasing his tax records?
Ugh. Go away Romney. Let us remember you fondly.
At this point Romney is becoming like Bret Favre. Staying too long in the game.
@DBQ - I'm quoting you. That @9:02 was brilliant. I never skip your comments. They are worth the read.
Blogger jr565 said...
Distaste of the word qualification aside, why isn't Trump releasing his tax records?
My guess is it's for legal reasons. He is being audited.
Imagine the number of lawyers on the side of Democrats who'd love to help the IRS audit his returns. Surely that isn't allowed, but, slip a few words to the right people in the right IRS office and viola! We found something to sink our teeth into.
The IRS has been politicized and is an arm of the Democrat party at this point. So releasing his returns for everyone to "audit" wouldn't seem wise to me.
@jr565 - Because why should he? Because he can get more play out of it by not? Because maybe he's drawing his own line in the sand?
Did you read DBQ at 9:02?
Re: DBQ at 9:02. That there is enough reason to vote for Trump.
"@jr565 - Because why should he? Because he can get more play out of it by not? Because maybe he's drawing his own line in the sand?"
HE said he would. Others before him have done so. What is he hiding? My guess is, he isn't the billionaire he claims.
Re: Althouse:
It might be desirable that presidential candidates release their tax returns, but it's not on the level of being 35 years old and a natural-born citizen.
Well, I suppose you can say this for Trump:
When he questions someone's "qualifications" for President he questions those qualifications.
The tax return thing is over-rated. Trump is audited every year. You have to believe that if anything was wrong, the IRS would have found it (that maybe wrong given the ineptitude of the IRS).
The only people that get overheated by this are the media. They want to crawl through someones income tax returns looking for stories, that's about it. And until they get them, they imply the candidate is "hiding something". In the history of released IRS returns, what have we ever found out that was important? Bill Clinton deducted donations of his used underwear to the the Goodwill?
Hillary was screeching about this point the other day. She should know it's dangerous for her to do so personally. After all, where are the transcripts of the Goldman Sachs speeches. Now there's something to hide!.
jr565 said...
"@jr565 - Because why should he? Because he can get more play out of it by not? Because maybe he's drawing his own line in the sand?"
HE said he would. Others before him have done so. What is he hiding? My guess is, he isn't the billionaire he claims.
See DBQs answer above.
I'm guessing you've never been audited by the IRS.
Re: Hossley:
The only people that get overheated by this are the media. They want to crawl through someones income tax returns looking for stories, that's about it. And until they get them, they imply the candidate is "hiding something". In the history of released IRS returns, what have we ever found out that was important? Bill Clinton deducted donations of his used underwear to the the Goodwill?
And if he's currently under audit, it's actually not at all a mystery why he would be reluctant to make his returns public. There's nothing that actually prevents his doing so, but one would generally want to avoid putting one's tax advisors in the position of defending one on the same issues in two parallel proceedings -- tax audit and press.
"...slip a few words to the right people in the right IRS office and viola! We found something to sink our teeth into."
No word slipping required. I'm pretty well convinced there are many IRS functionaries that are self-starters when it comes to rooting out those evil Republicans.
And no paper trail! Win-win.
jr, do you pay taxes every year? You know, fill out a Fed 1040, and a state tax form? Do they ever ask you how much money you have, or do they ask you (like everyone else) how much you made last year?
".... no human being is qualified to hold the unilateral power of life and death over seven billion people, and that's what Clinton, Bush, and Obama have consolidated in the office of the presidency."
*************
If you say so, Lyle...
Say! I gotta ask: from your picture, you look a lot like that guy Limbaugh mentions in one of his between-commercial bits, the guy who wanted to tattoo his band's name ("Maroon") on his forehead, but misspelled it in a most unfortunate manner.
I guess it's been tough to get that taken off.
There is a formal procedure for disqualification in America. It's called voting.
Has Hillary released those transcripts yet?
Wow the Democrats love billionaires! If he's not one, he's not qualified.
Henry:
"decent-paying" jumps out to me.
It used to be "well-paying".
That was before it was "good-paying".
@ Karen et al
Thank you for the kind words. Anyone who has ever been audited by the IRS know the drill. Trump has just been through the mill a few more times than usual.
The IRS has handed him another great talking point that will resonate with people who who generally dislike the IRS. Plus...a hurried up audit to facilitate a Democrat talking point is only the the best interest of Trump's corporate and personal tax return outcomes. Who here loves the IRS???? Trusts the IRS???? That's what I thought.
Also...as pointed out. A tax return does not indicate your worth. Just your 'reportable' income. I could be worth millions of dollars and have hardly any taxable income. It's easy to do. As I understand it, Trump has already released his financial statement to the RNC. That is where you see net worth.
When Harry Reid attacked Romney over the fake "bombshell" that might be in his tax returns, Trump defended Romney on Gretta Van Susteren.
Speaking of disclosures why the rush on Trumpy? It's only been 13 years since our less than illustrious Secretary of State has yet to release his DD 214 form, 8 years since our Dear Leader has yet to release his college transcripts and his college aid application along with his renunciation of foreign citizenships or The Clinton's release of their personal and family foundation tax returns. And why is Hillary opposed to releasing the draft of the 1996 indictment against her? Inquiring minds want to know.
Why do any of them release their tax returns? Is it part of the passing fad of everything being everyone's business?
Bill Clinton's health records. Obama's school records. Hillary's self-described "personal" emails scrubbed by her staff before her "official" SecState emails on her personal server were turned over to the State Dept upon subpoena.
If Trump made no charitable deductions, ever, got some YUUUUGE tax credits or government grants for his real estate, made money on multiple bankruptcies, was fined $1,000,000 after an audit for a misplaced digit in his math, or made some really bad deals and listed ridiculous losses on his returns, he still hasn't had Madelaine Albright or Susan Rice or his own wife stand in front of the American people and lie their asses off about illegal, immoral or simply embarrassing events for a momentary political gain.
@jr65
Trump has explicitly stated multiple times that he will release his returns as soon as the audit is complete. He answered this again yesterday on FNC or CNN (not much difference these days). Not that you will care, because DBQ and others have pointed this out and you stubbornly speculate about what could be in there. Go ahead and speculate but don't make a spectacle of yourself pondering what secrets are hidden there because the ones you've elucidated are bogus.
I'll give you a hint what AIN'T in there: whether or not he's a "billionaire!" As Angelyne and others have pointed out to you, there IS NO MEASURE OF NET WORTH OR WEALTH on a tax return. That's why it's called INCOME TAX. Our Revenue Code doesn't tax wealth, it taxes income.
mikee said...
If Trump made no charitable deductions, ever, got some YUUUUGE tax credits or government grants for his real estate, made money on multiple bankruptcies, was fined $1,000,000 after an audit for a misplaced digit in his math,
Do you really think that Trump does his own taxes?
I don't care about Trump's tax return. I know he's rich. If the MSM ever cared to ask how people who devote their lives to public service become jillionaires, it might be relevant.
AllenS: Sorry, I was over-generalizing a silly example of something wrong in his tax forms, for the enjoyment of the mass audience of comment readers. No, I suspect he has accountants who do his taxes.
As do I, and I am about as much a non-multimillionaire non-Trump as one can be, and I think that is another problem with life in the US, current day, that I need specialists to navigate the rules over confiscation of earned income taken by the government. But that is another reason to hate Hillary, who loves such arcana and has promised to confiscate even more from everyone who has anything she can take.
Obviously he wouldn't have run if he had skeletons. Trump is an honorable man.
He's not releasing them now to taunt the hive.
When he does release them it will be at a moment that helps him most.
It's all part of not jumping when they say jump. Forget "how high?"
Allen S: I note you ignored the issue of using women to lie publicly, or being a woman who chose to lie publicly, for the protection of the male liar. That was my primary point, differentiating Trump from Hillary, Bill and Obama.
How sad is it that Romney is doing a better job of campaigning for Hillary this time, than he did for himself last time?
Article 2 Section 1 Paragraph 5 of the Constitution specifies the qualifications for President. I didn't find anything there about publicizing tax returns or being kind to dogs. But a Presidential candidate in the course of running for office gets at least one moment to show he has what it takes and Mr. Romney fluffed his moment. Stop digging Mitt! Go go back to private life. You've already proven you can't cut it.
mikee, me too, and I only make (taxable income) less than $30,000. However, my tax guy (who charges me $20 per year) has prostate cancer, and I'm pretty sure that I'll be doing my own next year.
Sorry, I see now that you were doing snark.
I’m not quite #NeverTrumpOrHillary but while I’m mostly there, I think that this is a pretty lame criticism of Trump. If I were running as Trump, I might delay releasing them and use that as leverage with the media perhaps something along the lines of “I’ll release my tax records as soon as we get to see Hillary Clinton’s medical records explaining why it is that she keeps passing out at her own speeches” and turn the story to Clinton’s secretive nature and the lack of general scrutiny that the media has given to a candidate with advanced age and health problems.
"When he does release them it will be at a moment that helps him most."
You mean like a birth certificate?
"Trump has explicitly stated multiple times that he will release his returns as soon as the audit is complete. He answered this again yesterday on FNC or CNN (not much difference these days). Not that you will care, because DBQ and others have pointed this out and you stubbornly speculate about what could be in there. Go ahead and speculate but don't make a spectacle of yourself pondering what secrets are hidden there because the ones you've elucidated are bogus."
Look, I already said that I'm not a Never Trumper. Repubs should now push Trump to be president. But that doesn't mean that Romney is wrong to make this point about Trump's taxes. It IS relevant. Romney released his taxes. Trump said he would release his taxes. So do it. He can't release ANY taxes? that's simply not true. He could. The IRS even said they wouldn't require that he not release his data. He is free to do so. He simply doesn't want to.
I'll give you a hint what AIN'T in there: whether or not he's a "billionaire!" As Angelyne and others have pointed out to you, there IS NO MEASURE OF NET WORTH OR WEALTH on a tax return. That's why it's called INCOME TAX. Our Revenue Code doesn't tax wealth, it taxes income."
It would tell us how much he's earned the past few years. And it may be a lot less than he's let on.
Hillary, who did the Saudis a YUUGE favor by killing Keystone, collects 100 million from them? Yawn, not in the New York Times. Not on Facebook.
From the article where Trump supported Romney against Reid's charge that he hadn't paid taxes in 10 years:
“I think it’s a very strong statement that Harry made,” Trump said. “And I’ve known Harry and I like Harry."
Interesting. He actually likes Harry. Does anyone like Harry Reid. But yeah, that's interesting. He liked Harry so much he supported Harry Reid over the Tea Party candidate who was trying to oust Harry. Makes me question how Republican he actually is.
"But I think it’s a statement that he probably wished he didn’t make. I don’t think there was a source. A lot of people don’t think there was a source. If there was a source, it’s probably not allowed and it’s probably not even legal. I mean, who would be able to do that? Who would be allowed to do that? I don’t think there is a source.”
So why didn't he have this same position when the allegation was that Ted Cruz's dad was aligned with Lee Harvey Oswald. He said it was reported. Well, I don't think there was a source. Certainly not one that Trump could actually cite. And then there's his argument that Bush lied us into war. And then there's his pushing of birtherism when it came to Obama. And then there's his pushing of birtherism when it came to Ted Cruz. The guy seems to have no problem with making allegation absent credible sources.
Romney is probably the wrong person to be calling for candidate to disclose tax returns.
And is there really such a thing as a "routine" audit?
(cont) further quote from Trump:
“It was a very strong statement. I think that, frankly, and you — I’ve said it many times and I’ll continue to say it, that what Governor Romney should do, in my opinion — and he’s a very different person and he’s got a different attitude, and I understand that – – is say, I will give my tax returns if you open up your records because as you know, President Obama spent over $4 million trying to hide so many different things from his past, whether it’s college applications, college records, passport records. And you know, nobody brings this up. Nobody says, ‘Open up your passport records. Open up your college applications. Open up your college records. Let’s see your life.’ And nobody brings this up. By the way, most presidents have given their college records. All presidents have given, to the best of my knowledge, their passport records. So why is he spending $4 million on trying to keep them secret? So I would say, I will open up my tax returns — and his tax returns are perfect. But I would open up my tax returns, but we want to see your records. I think they should place the shoe on the other foot. And I would think that you would probably not hear any more talk, frankly, about the tax returns, which are 100 percent according to Hoyle.”
So, the counter to this is that Romney did in fact release his tax returns. Not ten years worth, but at least two years worth. Why WAS Obama spending all that money to hide his transcript? Trump and birthers were demanding that Obama show his birth certificate. He seems to want to know certain things? Why couldn't Obama turn around and say "i won't release my transcript unless Romney releases 10 years of taxes?" using Trumps logic?
Most other candidates HAVE released their taxes. So I'd ask why hasn't Trump released his?
bricap wrote:
Romney is probably the wrong person to be calling for candidate to disclose tax returns.
Romney released his taxes. He didnt' go back ten years. But he released the last few years. Trump hasn't released ANYTHING.
""When he does release them it will be at a moment that helps him most."
You mean like a birth certificate?
First off, it wouldn't matter if he had a birth certificate or not. His mom was a citizen, making Obama a citizen. No birth certificate necessary. But i'd then counter, why did Trump have an issue with Obama not releasing his birth certificate? Its almost like he was saying not releasing his birth certificate was disqualifying. or that he had something to hide. Obama could make the exact same argument about not releasing his b.c. that Trump is now making about releasing his taxes. He'll do it when he feels like it.
But that doesn't mean that Romney is wrong to make this point about Trump's taxes.
I believe he IS wrong to do this.
It IS relevant.
To some maybe. Not to me. The media proved they don't really care about how cheap (Clinton's) niggardly (Gore's) and uncharitable (Biden's) people are according to their tax return data. So I don't see why this tradition need be extended.
Romney released his taxes.
Again, this should be unbderstood in the context of Romney released his taxes long after he was expected to do so and only after the lying shit Harry Reid made multiple disparaging speeches on the subject, which was all lapped up by the Democrat-Media complex. So, yeah, after months of painful news cycles Mitt released his and then the media pretended to care about his effective tax rate. Big whoop. You're 4-word summary leaves out too much.
Trump said he would release his taxes...
...after the audit was complete on multiple occassions, not ever really deviating on this subject. This is so unlike Her Highness saying she would "look into" releasing her speeches. So unlike the break with history when Obama would not release his medical records.
So do it.
One begins to wonder at your obsession on this point. Why NOW?
He can't release ANY taxes?
He has been advised by counsel not to. That's correct.
that's simply not true.
Well, other lawyers have admitted it is true and the same advice they would give.
He could.
Yeah but then if they have to be restated after the audit it gets messy. He's said he's going to release them all once they are correct and accepted by the IRS.
The IRS even said they wouldn't require that he not release his data.
Duh. A political statement. YOU have the right to release your own private data. I can't believe you fell for that (assuming your source is correct).
He is free to do so.
Finally we agree.
He simply doesn't want to.
Says the guy who ignores the answers from the horses mouth.
Is this Garage Mahal, spoofing JR65?
The IRS even said they wouldn't require that he not release his data.
The IRS cannot require that anyone release their personal income tax data.
The release of income tax returns is entirely a voluntary thing. Unlike the financial statement releases that are required of all public office holders from President to lowly utilities board members.
Trump doesn't have to release his taxes. However, he did say he would once the audit was over. Releasing tax records that are in dispute, while they are being resolved would be a monumentally stupid thing for him to do. Trump is no dummy.
Besides....I believe it to be a strategic plus to delay and put the focus ON the IRS.
The constitution says who is eligible. It does not set forth minimum qualifications to do the job.
Don't think that Hillary should get her hopes up - see this article today at the Daily Caller: Persian Gulf Shieks Gave Bill & Hillary $100 Million . She is playing a game here, trying to distinguish between their personal income and the hundreds of millions received by their family foundation. It isn't just the Persian Gulf Shieks, of course, but also others with interests inimical to ours around the world (e.g. Giving control of 1/5 of our uranium reserves to the Russians). And, nobody should be surprised with over $100 million from the Gulf Shieks, that she is pushing to stop fracking in this country.
Sorry - there was supposed to be a link to the Daily Caller article in my last post:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/05/11/exclusive-persian-gulf-sheikhs-gave-bill-hillary-100-million/
Tax records. School records. This is garbage information. Are we supposed to care about income in case it's full of payoffs? Those are entirely fungible. And school records? Of fifty year olds? Please.
Mike wrote:
"I believe he IS wrong to do this." because you are a Trump supporter.
"To some maybe. Not to me. " Again, you are a Trump supporter. I don't expect you to side with anything that makes Trump look bad or has any requirement of Trump that he doesn't want to agree to. Because you are a supporter.
"The media proved they don't really care about how cheap (Clinton's) niggardly (Gore's) and uncharitable (Biden's) people are according to their tax return data." That's the fault of the media. I don't support the media when they give their candidates a pass.
So I don't see why this tradition need be extended."
I'd say the fault is with the media.
Romney released his taxes.
Again, this should be unbderstood in the context of Romney released his taxes long after he was expected to do so and only after the lying shit Harry Reid made multiple disparaging speeches on the subject, which was all lapped up by the Democrat-Media complex."
But he still gave up his tax returns. Sure, Harry Reid's attacks where scurrilous (much like many of Trumps attacks actually) But so what. He may have had a point about the releasing of the tax returns. Romney released said tax returns and proved him wrong. Now the egg is on Harry Reid's Face. more importantly though Trump said he would release his taxes. If he goes back on his word he looks to be a liar.
He should have said right off the bat "I refuse to release my taxes". Since he never said that, I expect him to release his taxes.
jr565 at 12:40 PM
His mom was a citizen, making Obama a citizen
The issue was whether Obama was a natural-born citizen.
Interesting. He actually likes Harry. Does anyone like Harry Reid. But yeah, that's interesting. He liked Harry so much he supported Harry Reid over the Tea Party candidate who was trying to oust Harry. Makes me question how Republican he actually is.
jr,
Re: Reid, Trump has to do business in Nevada, which the Reid clan apparently owns in fee simple.
Re: his taxes, I think you can safely leave Trump's tactics to Trump.
I think he has shown so far that he knows what he's doing, and you've shown that you don't (know what he's doing). You're not concern trolling, pretending this relates to any interest in helping him win, are you? You just want this pound of flesh, because you're angry at Trump for winning, or whatever. You're kinda stuck on the stupid there, or at least the obstinate.
As such, one doesn't have to be angry at you; on the other hand, you can be safely ignored. Please don't be hurt; again, Trump is trying to get to 270, not to make one jr565 love him and want to marry him.
BTW: 'I despise you, here's power, now obey me!' <--not really a thinking man's response.
BBTW: I can do one bit of Karnak for you: Trump's income taxes do not show a $100 million bribe from the Saudis, and do not show him getting paid to sell American uranium to Russia. So, they're better than Hillary!s, already.
jr565,
Now the egg is on Harry Reid's Face. more importantly though
More importantly though, Romney is a yapping dog, not POTUS. And Reid is an egg-sucking dog, who has no objections to getting some on him. It's like going into mud wrestling with a pig. You're not going to deter the pig with the threat of mud.
^ and this lack of perceptiveness weakens your credibility. I could skip straight to "you are a lib/left/Dem troll," but I doubt that; however your arguments are pretty identical.
If Trump wants to use this as a bargaining chip, say to get the GS speech transcripts out of Hillary! in time for Sanders to whack her with them, or some other stratagem that will cost her votes or support, would you find that agreeable? (Gosh, I think I would)
Yes? Then kindly have the great goodness to shut up about it for a while.
Just because people want you to have your hair on fire over this, doesn't mean you must do so, you know.
Unknown wrote:
Re: Reid, Trump has to do business in Nevada, which the Reid clan apparently owns in fee simple.
But he had a choice to back the republican over harry Reid, and he chose to back Harry Reid. And not only the Republican candidate. The Tea Party candidate. Is it your suggestion that if the Tea Party candidate won he somehow couldn't do business in Nevada?
There is no legal requirement that he can't release his taxes, even if under audit. Many of his taxes are not under audit. Why can't he release those?
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/republican-2016-debate-donald-trump-tax-audit-219842#ixzz41Hv9xLMW
back in febuary Trump told Face the Nation that he would release his taxes in 3 to 4 months. But now he's insinuating he won't release his taxes till after the election.
When Romney asked him to release taxes (since he wasn't obligated under law to not release them) and could release any taxes that were not being audited Trump had this to say:
.
“You don't learn anything from a tax return,” Trump said Thursday night. “I will say this. Mitt Romney looked like a fool when he delayed and delayed and delayed and Harry Reid baited him and Mitt Romney didn't file until a month and a half before the election and it cost him big league.”
First of all, its big TIME. Not big league (IDIOT!) Second, Why would he suggest that Romney delaying on releasing his taxes cost him big and then turn around and delay releasing his taxes? Wouldn't that cost him "big league"?
Cruz released his taxes. Rubio released his taxes. When Romney didnt release his taxes right away Trump called him an idiot. So, why would Trump not release his taxes?
Mike, Trump is just full of shit on all if this.
No real tax lawyer believes Trump when he says he's been audited every year for the last 13 years. If that is true, Trump has some hinky returns.
Trump has tried trumpteen different stories; that he "couldn't" release returns because of audits, to being laughed at for that untruth (an audit does not prevent any public release) to then saying he will release them when the audit is over, on advice of counsel, to then saying last March that he'd release them in 3-4 months, to what we see now; more of the interminable avoidance.
I don't much care about most candidates' taxes. But Trump has such a bizarre history with unsubstantiated claims of personal wealth, and he has placed such a public reliance on his statute as a fabulous businessman, I want to know more. Trump alone is the motivation.
The one great surprise in Mitt Romney's tax returns was how much he gave to charity. It was a lot. I'd like to know where Trump stands.
Trump himself, for reasons of his own credibility and character, has created most of the best reasons to demand public release of his tax returns.
jr565 said...
bricap wrote:
Romney is probably the wrong person to be calling for candidate to disclose tax returns.
Romney released his taxes. He didnt' go back ten years. But he released the last few years. Trump hasn't released ANYTHING.
5/12/16, 12:36 PM
Fair distinction. Thanks.
jr, to be precise, if he did not say nice things about Harry Reid, if he attacked him, then yes, it would probably cost him big time/league in NV. He had, if you like, the courage to stand up for Romney, but he couched it with the delicacy you apparently want from him now on immigration, etc., because again, Reid can make his life miserable. Harry Reid is a mob boss with a congressional credential.
Also, don't I recall many on the right attacking Shar(r?)on Angle as some kind of weirdo?
Best practice is to let the challenger win before you start making up to him or her.
I'm sure some taxes will eventually come out. It's just not important. Can't you see that this is a distraction? Focus!
Donald Trump himself made the point why not releasing your taxes makes you look like an idiot and also hurts you "big league". Those are Trumps words. Why do they not apply to him?
Do Trumpbots not actually listen to their own guy?
He said something similar when talking about immigration. He said that Romneys self deportation policy was "maniacal" and "mean spirited" and cost the repubs the election.
Then he turns around and says he would force everyone to be deported. But that's not mean spirited? Why would he assume that it similarly wouldn't cost him the election?
He said, unlike Romney's plan " Mine is not mean-spirited. Mine is business. We have a country. You don't have a country if people are allowed to walk in, cross the border and stay here for as long as they want,”
Romney's was also business. If you can't get a work permit, you can't work. therefore, what's keeping you here? Trumps position was certainly more mean spirited than Romney's. and also less realistic.
But I don't get how he can say things that are less mean spirited than his own policies could cost Republicans an election and not then apply that same logic to his own policies.
I can certainly see why Trumpbots accept this without questioning. Because words don't matter to them. He could say ANYTHING and they will drink it up like its elixir. Because they are the same dolts that pushed Obama. But I don't have to accept that position, since I'm not blind to his flaws.
unknown wrote:
Reid can make his life miserable. Harry Reid is a mob boss with a congressional credential.
Yes, this is why you want to get Reid out of congress. So you back the conservative that will do so. You want ME to back Trump to beat Hillary right? Isn't that the same argument? I'm supposed to bite my tongue and back the head of the party no matter what, becuase the alternative is worse. Correct?
Well, why didnt' Trump do that? Because he is not and never has been a conservative or a Republican.
And Bricap, you were right the first time, Romney is the wrong guy to be giving political advice to anyone, because he is one of history's greatest losers and anything he says is statistically certain to be bad advice.
And he mixes up business and personal and you can't rely on him on that basis alone. If he said to sell gold I'd probably buy gold.
Trump will do what Trump has to do when Trump has to do it.
We can ignore Chuck entirely as he freely admits his viewpoint is purely personal malice.
BTW Trump has, pardon the expression, yuuuuge charitable donations. Viz., New York's Donald J. Trump State Park. Of course that was ten years ago. But he's still beautifying New York highways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adopt-a-Highway.
You people are really ten steps behind. Really, I hold you no ill will. Just deal.
Bruce @1:12
Good article. This part raises an interesting question:
"MSNBC..Rachel Maddow asked Clinton in March if she should shut down the Clinton Foundation. ...Is there a case to be made, an ethical case to be made that the Clinton Foundation and the global initiative should essentially be wound down as a family foundation while you run for president? ...I think it is not unreasonable to suspect that people may give donations to The Clinton Foundation hoping that they will favorably influence your opinion toward them, as a presidential candidate, or eventually as president if youre elected."
"Clinton sidestepped the question."
So because I accept Trump's excuse until other information comes to light to contradict it, that makes me a Trumpian according to JR65 (I( guess because he couldn't argue the point he decided to throw a name at me); and it makes Trump full of shit according to Chuck. Whatever. Ya'll are welcome to your views. He said he expected the audit to wrap up sooner, and he could not have known in 2012 (where the "I'll release them of course" quote comes from) that he would still be in an open audit 4 years later!
If he weasels out by using a different excuse (this is the only one I've heard) or letting it go past October then shame on me. He's still better than the Witch of Chappaqua!
Now why don't you two give him the time to comply with what he promised? Obsession!
Oh and Romney is wrong because he is a loser that didn't fight against Obama with ANY of the vitriol and precision with which he has fought Trump. He may believe that we have to blow up the Republican party in order to save it.
I don't. My top two picks (Rubio, Cruz) didn't make the cut. I'm happy to let majority rule within the RNC and go to war with the nominee we got not against the nominee we got.
Romney's actions are stupid unless you're in favor of a Hilary presidency
The main reason for transparency is to clear the air. Remember how awful it was that Obama didn't release his birth certificate? Or he did, it just wasn't the one that satisfied the lunatic fringe? What was Obama hiding? And then Obama didn't release his college transcripts? Obviously he got all Fs, and majored in Kenyan Socialist Usurpage!
So naturally people assume the worst, as with tax returns--maybe they show a very low tax rate (as Reid suggested about Romney) or show zero charitable giving (as some suspect about Trump) or a set of poor financial decisions. Or maybe they show donations to some embarrassing causes. Without transparency, people can infer whatever they want.
Trump fans obviously don't care--hell, the returns could show that Hillary's SuperPAC is majority funded with Trump donations from May of 2015, and they'll still say this was brilliant leverage on his part. And it obviously doesn't matter to those who hate Trump, because even if the returns were squeaky clean he wouldn't win them over. The malleable voters are the ones who right now are looking at Sneaky Hillary (not releasing Goldman transcripts) and Duplicitous Donald (not releasing tax returns) and assuming the worst about them.
5/12/16, 2:01 PM
Respectfully, jr, is there any point talking to you? Because I don't think you want to listen.
Mike wrote:
If he weasels out by using a different excuse (this is the only one I've heard) or letting it go past October then shame on me. He's still better than the Witch of Chappaqua!
I don disagree. But that doesn't make him a good candidate. I don't think Romney should be pushing third party at this point. All will do is ensure that he siphones votes away from Trump.
But the question was about Trump releasing his taxes. He SHOULD release them. Trump made the exact argument about how Romney not doing so in a timely manner hurt him in the election. So, the same logic applies. That you and Trump understand this when it comes to Romney but somehow think it doesn't apply when it comes to Trump shows a real blind spot.
Trump said it. I take him at his word. If you disagree, then disagree with Trump.
"Respectfully, jr, is there any point talking to you? Because I don't think you want to listen."
Respectfully, Unknown, i think its Trumpbots that don't want to listen. Because you don't have a valid answer as to why Trump would support Harry Reid, when he could support the Tea Partier or any republican in the race. When faced with that you shut down and don't address the point.
Us non Trumpbots are exasperated that you seem to have no reflection as to the candidate you support so blindly. When it was Obama supporters I'm sure even you could see that those who supported him blindly didn't care if he kept to his word or not. they just wanted him to win. But Obamaniacs were fools who followed the cult of personality.
Mike I am not sure that I believe that Trump is being audited at all. Not right now, for all if the last 10 or 12 years (and not after claiming that he has been audited every single year in that time frame).
I want to hear it from a Trump tax attorney. And the IRS. Because I do not believe a word coming out of Donald Trump's mouth, or his wherever.
Phil 3:14 said...
"Birthers, gotta love 'em".
Willfully blind idiots, gotta love 'em
Papa Cruz was an admitted "Fidel Stooge" who claims he didn't know that Fidel was a Communist. [I read that defense on a legit pro-Cruz news site] He was involved in pro-Castro organizations in Texas--as was Oswald. That is an established fact and it makes it possible that the pic is legit. He did hand out Castro flyers and so did Oswald. Papa Cruz also hightailed it to Canada afterward. There may be lots of explanations for that, but avoiding FBI scrutiny/prosecution is certainly one possibility. I'll be glad to go through the FBI files and give you a definitive answer, if you give me complete access.
Shit Flopney!
What DBQ said.
Trump should play a Bernie card on her and only agree to release his tax returns on the condition that Hillary releases her Goldman Sachs speech transcripts. Jesus Christ! Is it that hard to figure out which is more important and potentially disqualifying?
jr565
Why is it so important to you?
Does he owe you money?
I loved Romney in 12. I did.
But, seriously, go fuck yourself. You didn't do ANY of this shit in your general. You decided to puss out and whine constantly.
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