Althouse: "Gynecologists Kavita Shah Arora and Allan Jacobs said procedures that slightly changed the look of a girl's genitalia without damaging them..."

March 1, 2016

"Gynecologists Kavita Shah Arora and Allan Jacobs said procedures that slightly changed the look of a girl's genitalia without damaging them..."

"... were comparable to male circumcision or cosmetic procedures in Western countries like labiaplasty. Laws against mild modifications were 'culturally insensitive and supremacist and discriminatory towards women,' they wrote in the specialist journal, which is published by the British Medical Journal."

45 comments:

Oso Negro said...: I could support a law that proscribes altering ANYONE'S genitals until they are old enough to decide for themselves. Sorry, Yahweh.; 3/1/16, 1:06 PM
Gahrie said...: Anyone that committed to FGM is probably not going to be comfortable in western culture in many ways. Instead of trying to change our culture to resemble the one they left, why don't they simply return to that culture?; 3/1/16, 1:07 PM
tim maguire said...: Are these "laws against mild modifications" concerning children's genitals? Or anybody's? There are medical justifications for male circumcision, I'm not aware of any for female's.; 3/1/16, 1:08 PM
Curtiss said...: "We are not arguing that any procedure on the female genitalia is desirable," they said. "Rather, we only argue that certain procedures ought to be tolerated by liberal societies."

They said the term "female genital mutilation" should be replaced with the less emotive "female genital alteration" (FGA) to avoid "demonizing important cultural practices".

FGM: Doubleplusungood.
FGA: Doubleplusgood.; 3/1/16, 1:18 PM
Paul Snively said...: Isn't there a clear medical definition of "cliterodectomy," including whether there is any medical warrant for it? As usual, the problem seems to be tossing around ambiguities, e.g. "female genital mutilation." There's no way out of the semantic muddle that entails. Definitions that are not definitive are not definitions by definition. Get scientifically clear on categories, and when there is no scientific support for a process, the electorate can decide whether it is legally permissible or not.; 3/1/16, 1:19 PM
Hagar said...: These people are nuts.; 3/1/16, 1:27 PM
Clayton Hennesey said...: They said the term "female genital mutilation" should be replaced with the less emotive "female genital alteration" (FGA) to avoid "demonizing important cultural practices".

I believe this, in addition to both breast augmentation and breast reduction, should be included in our new best friend term "gender confirmation surgery".; 3/1/16, 1:30 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: First do no harm.; 3/1/16, 1:32 PM
damikesc said...: Women, enjoy seeing Progressives feeling you mean less than Muslims?

Keep voting for it. I bet it will never happen here...; 3/1/16, 1:40 PM
Sammy Finkelman said...: If you could come up with something that would satisfy the people doing "female circumcision" but that didn't actually harm anything important, maybe taht's agood thing, but are they sure taht is the case?

This does bring up the idea that laws can be too blanket.; 3/1/16, 1:49 PM
David Begley said...: Rationalization of nutty Muslim practice.; 3/1/16, 2:05 PM
traditionalguy said...: First they want to keep their sexual stimulation organs , and next they will be going outside without veils on and seducing our fine young men. The horror of it all.

If I were allah, I would just kill them all.; 3/1/16, 2:08 PM
David said...: So long circumcisions. I know they are out of fashion now, but my c-section been bery bery good to me.; 3/1/16, 2:09 PM
MayBee said...: At what age can you start calling it Gender Reassignment Surgery?

Or....as Julianne Moore at the Oscars called it, Gender Confirmation Surgery.; 3/1/16, 2:09 PM
Francisco D said...: Devout Muslims want to make sure that women never have orgasms probably because Mohammed didn't give his wives and lovers orgasms.

This seems like crazy shit to me. Pardon the cultural insensitivity, but who is really being insensitive here?

They think that women who never have orgasms will be easier to manage. The other option is that they turn out like ... wait for it ... Hillary!; 3/1/16, 2:23 PM
damikesc said...: Or....as Julianne Moore at the Oscars called it, Gender Confirmation Surgery.

Can anybody explain why pop culture is so obsessed with what is, by any definition, a mental disorder?

As I've said for a while, a "transgender" woman is no more a woman than an anorexis is fat. You shouldn't humor either of it.; 3/1/16, 2:28 PM
Jaq said...: Many also see it as a religious obligation although it is not mentioned in the Koran or Bible.

How did the Bible get dragged into this?; 3/1/16, 2:32 PM
Rosalyn C. said...: Male circumcision is a very specific procedure, regardless if it performed by a religious expert or a medical expert. There is nothing specific about FGM or female genital alteration. As a "cultural practice" there is a wide range of what is acceptable or required by the various tribes or sects who perform this. So how do you impose limits or restrictions? How do you convince someone who is used to chopping and dicing that drawing a little bit of blood is acceptable? How is that less insulting and invalidating to their cherished traditions? So better to ban it altogether in the West. Take a stand for doing the right thing and stop worrying about name calling.; 3/1/16, 2:34 PM
ALP said...: I am curious to know how these two authors feel about voluntary "Pray the gay away" therapies advocated by fundamentalist Christians? If "nicking" at the genitalia one is born with is ok, wouldn't psychological "nicking" to try and change the sexual preference one is born with, to try and conform to conservative Christian morals (even if one is faking it), be acceptable as well?; 3/1/16, 2:41 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: damikesc said...

Can anybody explain why pop culture is so obsessed with what is, by any definition, a mental disorder?

Pop culture is so obsessed with liberalism because it lets them use government power to do whatever they want to whomever they want.

Or were you talking about a different mental disorder?; 3/1/16, 2:42 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm all for a return to "culturally discriminatory and insensitive". We have our ways, they have theirs, it's not our job to try to "reform" their cultures in their lands or ours while allowing them to flood into our countries and demand that we allow the introduction of customs that are culturally alien and repulsive to us.

"Rather, we only argue that certain procedures ought to be tolerated by liberal societies."

A one way toleration that allows the cultural colonization and destruction of the "tolerant liberal society". "Tolerant liberal societies" are not empty abstractions into which you can pour any and all human cultural variations. We live here, assholes. This is our home.

These people don't belong in the West. There is no "right" for them to live in the West. They want to maintain their thoroughly alien-to-us customs? They can stay home. Basta!

The U.S. gynecologists, writing in the Journal of Medical Ethics, argued that permitting more minimal procedures could allow families to uphold cultural and religious traditions while protecting girls from more dangerous forms of cutting.

Hey, you know what would have been, and would still be, the strongest, quickest, and most permanent method of "protecting girls from more dangerous forms of cutting"? Putting the hammer down hard on the first immigrants who were discovered to have flouted Western laws against FGM, instead of the candy-ass "sensitivity" that instead has allowed it to take root and spread in Western societies. I strongly suspect that prosecution, deportation, and the loss of any right to return to the West would cause some serious re-evaluations of which "cultural and religious traditions" were really so essential to identity. Anybody who concludes that cutting girls' genitals is a non-negotiable part of their culture, is, after all, free to live, or just stay home in the first place.

I knew this was coming. I remember years ago arguing, on the website of somebody whimpering about showing sensitivity to FGM cultures, that we were going to end up allowing first this "minimal" stuff, and then less minimal stuff, in our own clinics and hospitals, all in the name of "saving those girls from the dangerous unhygienic conditions there parents would be driven to subject them to, if we didn't show more understanding and cultural sensitivity."

Next week they'll be demanding that it be covered by Western nations' insurance systems, next. If they haven't already. Mark my words.

As for "upholding cultural traditions", at this point I'm all about upholding and defending my cultural traditions, which don't include any variation of this practice, and preventing it from being introduced in any form. It is not the way of my people, understand? I demand that you respect that.; 3/1/16, 2:47 PM
robother said...: Sounds like Dr. Kavita Shah Arora is trying to carve out a niche practice for herself.; 3/1/16, 3:01 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: You cannot be against female genital mutilation and for male genital mutilation. Pick a side.; 3/1/16, 3:10 PM
Anonymous said...: "You cannot be against female genital mutilation and for male genital mutilation. Pick a side."

FGM involves removing a major organ of female sexual pleasure, while circumcision does not.

IOW Apple, meet Orange.; 3/1/16, 3:15 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: They are both the primitive rituals of goat-fuckers. Are you on the side of goat-fuckers or not?; 3/1/16, 3:20 PM
Etienne said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/1/16, 3:20 PM
jimbino said...: Even Jewish practice involves "drawing a little bit of blood" in the case of a convert from Christianity who has already been circumcised.

Religion is an ass, everywhere and always. Let's put an end to mental and sexual abuse of non-consenting adults and of all children and allow suicide!; 3/1/16, 3:30 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: jimbino said...

Let's put an end to mental and sexual abuse of non-consenting adults and of all children and allow suicide!

Lead the way, we'll be right behind you...; 3/1/16, 3:51 PM
Rosalyn C. said...: This is not about religion but cultural practices. Many Muslims refuse to accept that FGM has anything to do with Islam, despite its prevalence in Muslim countries. There are Muslim scholars, such as Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad, Ph.D. who make a strong religious case against allowing FGM in the West.; 3/1/16, 4:09 PM
George Grady said...: "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

--Charles James Napier.; 3/1/16, 4:26 PM
Anonymous said...: damn, i read all of the comments hoping I could quote napier, but was beaten at the end...

WRT "upholding cultural traditions"

That is nearly the same as giving the green light to Sharia. Just a more formal "cultural traditions"; 3/1/16, 5:40 PM
Darrell said...: And Ahmed "made" a clock, so we should ignore all the suicide bombings out there and stop checking for explosive vests. Most FGM is brutal, often done with broken glass or bottle tops or metal shards. Spend some time doing a thorough Google search and start at Wiki.; 3/1/16, 5:50 PM
William said...: When you emigrate, as opposed to going on vacation, aren't you obligated to accept the host country's ways and mores, especially those customs that define the host country?.........Someone said there's a difference between being a vegetarian and being a cannibal. There's a difference between circumcision and a clitorectomy. There's a difference between foot binding and high heel shoes........The west has any number of foolish customs. We have no need to import others. This should be part of the baggage emigrants leave behind in the old country. Come here as emigrants and not as pioneers or colonizers.; 3/1/16, 5:55 PM
Abdul Abulbul Amir said...: WTF is wrong with those two bozos? You don't "improve the look" with a scalpel, you cut a perfectly functioning and beautiful body part.; 3/1/16, 6:25 PM
Nancy Reyes said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/1/16, 6:41 PM
Nancy Reyes said...: for further readding: WHO Classification:
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/overview/en/; 3/1/16, 6:45 PM
Nancy Reyes said...: More political correctness from the overpoliticized BMJ.

(note: I worked in Liberia, where some Muslim women had had circumcision).
Often the scarring results causes painful intercourse and to deliver such women, often you have to do an anterior and posterior episiotomy.

This custom predates Mohammed, who knew he couldn't stop it and wisely recommended to "cut less" (i.e. a minor ritual cut, not the removal of the clitoris and labia).

Desert conditions make male circumcision a wise choice, but the female one is mainly to control the sexuality of women.; 3/1/16, 6:46 PM
n.n said...: They say the same thing about a woman's uterus after aborting and/or cannibalizing her child. I can just imagine a class action lawsuit on two grounds: reproductive corruption and selective child, both perpetrated by "secularists" in liberal societies, albeit with the women's consent.; 3/1/16, 6:53 PM
Craig Landon said...: What Anglelyne said.; 3/1/16, 6:55 PM
Drago said...: jimbino: "Religion is an ass, everywhere and always."

Not every land can be as enlightened as the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Castro's island paradise, etc.; 3/1/16, 7:01 PM
Fred Drinkwater said...: Thanks, Angelyne. Especially:
"Tolerant liberal societies" are not empty abstractions into which you can pour any and all human cultural variations. We live here, assholes. This is our home.; 3/1/16, 7:05 PM
Clyde said...: The whole purpose of FGM is to damage the girls' genitalia so that they don't feel pleasure during sexual intercourse. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining. A woman who is incapable of feeling pleasure during sexual intercourse is not going to go adventuring with a lot of men; she will stay with her husband, since there is no payoff for messing around and a lot of risk. It's patriarchal and sexist, since we're throwing around pejoratives, and that trumps their "culturally insensitive" bullshit. All cultures are NOT equal or equally good.; 3/1/16, 7:58 PM
Michael K said...: "Can anybody explain why pop culture is so obsessed with what is, by any definition, a mental disorder?"

Pop culture has become a mental disorder. Heard any rap lyrics ?; 3/1/16, 10:18 PM
Jaq said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/2/16, 5:44 AM
jaydub said...: Okay, I'm not supposed to be making personal attacks on other commenters, so I won't. Fortunately, this policy prohibits me from pointing out that ARM and Jimbino are vile, despicable turdsicles. Which is a good thing?; 3/2/16, 10:43 AM