"We share the concerns of many Americans that extremists are creating a poisonous environment that feeds domestic terrorism in this country. We will never back away from providing care in a safe, supportive environment that millions of people rely on and trust."
Said the president of Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, quoted in "3 Are Dead in Colorado Springs Shootout at Planned Parenthood Center."
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150 comments:
There's a vast silent majority that doesn't care what the full circumstances and motives are. It's a news ratings thing. Politicians will free-ride on it. Interest groups love it.
It's entertainment for those who like to entertain themselves that way.
When the Police drive a vehicle through the building in a situation like this, who pays for the damages?
(What a dreadful thing to happen)
We share the concerns of many Americans that extremists are creating a poisonous environment that feeds domestic terrorism in this country.
I assume the extremists being referred to are the ones killing so many unborn babies.
Three dead in Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood center. President of Planned Parenthood disappointed as their daily totals are usually much higher.
""We share the concerns of many Americans that extremists are creating a poisonous environment that feeds domestic terrorism in this country. We will never back away from providing care in a safe, supportive environment that millions of people rely on and trust."
Care = killing and selling your baby.
"We had to destroy the building to save you"
I will add that per the article, force did not help. Only when they talked to the guy doing the shooting did he give up.
This may end up being about PP and it may not. I see no indication that the gunman shot anybody at the clinic. He seems to have been shooting from the clinic at cops. The cops on the other hand were firing at the building in general e.g. “Put gunfire through the walls,” came a reply. “Whatever, we got to stop this guy.”
He might be a suicide by cop guy or an unhappy Vet from the nearby VA clinic (I'm a vet. I know the negative stereotypes, but am providing alternative theories)
My point is, he entered the clinic but did not shoot it up. strange behavior....
The NYT however wants to make it PP all the way.
I'm not clear; was this an attack on PP, or a bank robbery gone south, with a PP next door.
The banner headline in the Albuquerque Journal, a Democrat paper, reads, "3 Dead at Family Planning Clinic."
You have to read down the article a ways to find out it is Planned Parenthood abortion shop they are talking about.
If it were Muslims shooting up clinics / theaters/ sororities/ schools/ etc., of course , the country would be losing its goddamn mind. Same with movie theaters, schools, etc. But it isn't Muslims so it can't be terrorism and can't represent a violence problem in the U.S. It's just "disturbed individuals" and whaddyagonnado.
MadisonMan said...
Only when they talked to the guy doing the shooting did he give up.
Maybe they should consider the same approach when dealing with unarmed black men.
At this point all we know is that a whacked out psycho shot some people. If there were any Planned Parenthood personnel injured then I doubt CNN would right now be talking about the Black Lives Matter incursion into Chicago's shopping district.
The Pro-Life movement is informed by adherence to total non-violence. The cultural weight in favor of life is ascendant.
"Force didn't help."
Jeebus Christmas. Every time I think liberal stupidity and obtuseness has reached it's full potential, someone comes along and brings it to new heights.
Finally figured out, I think, how to get Rush on my iPhone, and that is to listen to KOA on the iHeartRadio app. But when I tried to do it yesterday, this saga was on, and it captivated me, sitting make be 70 miles north of there at the time. At one point, I was listening to KOA (being Denver based, had a reporter on the scene), Fox News, and the police scanner, all kinda at the same time. Been in the King Soopers (Krogers) grocery store there at some point in the past, but didn't recognize PP there for obvious reasons.
Interesting rumor is that the (male) shooter identifies as female. I think that would still be too good to be true, and expect him to actually be some sort of religious nut reacting to the recently exposed brutality of other PP locations - several decades ago, C Springs was successful in bringing the headquarters of a number of fairly fundamentalist ministries to town, and the result seems to have been a decent sized religious conservative contingent. But PP knows this, and apparently was well prepared to meet this threat - just not prepared enough.
Every time I think liberal stupidity and obtuseness has reached it's full potential
My morning irony chuckle. Thank you.
I'm willing to admit this is speculation, and we'll find out more in the coming days, but...
I'm wondering if the gunman chose this location for his spree, not out of any anti-abortion convictions, but because PP has turned their clinics into hardened fortresses. They do this for a variety of reasons, some more legitimate than others.
There are some other reports that indicate the guy was just wandering around the shopping center parking lot and firing at anything that moved before seeking refuge in the PP clinic when the cops arrived in force.
"This may end up being about PP and it may not. I see no indication that the gunman shot anybody at the clinic. He seems to have been shooting from the clinic at cops."
He shot people at the clinic. He was reportedly shooting through walls, yes walls in order to shoot the patients and staff at the clinic. We don't know if any of the patients were there regarding an abortion, they may have been seeking birth control or another service. But seriously conservatives, when is it righteous to murder women seeking a legal medical procedure? You have a right to disagree on principal with the abortion issue and those who engage in that legal right, but you do not have a right to kill them. Is it proper to call anti abortion killers 'radical Christian terrorists', or 'Radical conservative terrorists' now?
This reminds me that now I am in CO, I need to drop down to C Springs to see some fraternity bros. One called last week, and I haven't gotten back to him. We drove through there a couple weeks ago, when my attempts to play tour guide were not appreciated. This is how the conversation went:
Me: This is the exit for Fort Carson. When I was in school...
Her: Shut up and drive
Me: New World Arena and turnoff for the Broadmoor. I actually watched a hockey..
Her: I said shut up
Me a bit later: That is the exit for col..
Her: I am going to hit you.
Me: see that building over on your right - it is Penrose hospital... The area with the turn of the century homes that we had been talking...
Her: We have been driving since Albuquerque. I hurt. I need to ... I just want this drive from hell over. And I really will hit you if you don't shut up.
Abortion/murder and Planned/cannibalism. In any case, Americans... At least, conservative Americans, are not pro-choice -- despite The Supreme Court's ruling for abortion rites and arbitrary exclusion of "Posterity" from The Constitution -- and do not engage in either elective abortion or planned cannibalism on principle. If anyone has chosen to violently confront the Planned Parenthood corporation for committing, aiding and abetting the commission of crimes against humanity, it was done as an individual action with an individual choice.
"harrogate said...
If it were Muslims shooting up clinics / theaters/ sororities/ schools/ etc., of course , the country would be losing its goddamn mind. Same with movie theaters, schools, etc. But it isn't Muslims so it can't be terrorism and can't represent a violence problem in the U.S. It's just "disturbed individuals" and whaddyagonnado."
Not just Muslims. We'd be "losing [our] [expletive] mind[s]" if such events were being perpetrated by any organized group of people trying to kill us. This is because small attacks by an organized group *are* a reasonable predictor of bigger attacks to come. 9/11 was preceded by two decades of attacks on Americans by Al Qaida.
A violent attack is just the surface symptom -- to deal with the problem you need to know the underlying condition. And the underlying conditions of "nutjob shoots up school" and "bank robbery goes wrong, robbers hole up in school" and "terror cell seizes elementary school" are each fundamentally different.
They're no more the same thing than a "lump" is the same whether caused by cancer, infection, or elective surgical implant.
The cancer and the infection can both kill you dead, but the appropriate course of treatment is totally different.
A Reasonable Man wrote:
Maybe they should consider the same approach when dealing with unarmed black men.
Just because you find an example where they don't, doesn't mean that they never do. And a situation where someone is in a building is different than a situation where beat cops have a run in with a suspect.
"Maybe they should consider the same approach when dealing with unarmed black men."
The one track mind is a wonder to behold.
"Interesting rumor is that the (male) shooter identifies as female."
I've heard that, too. Maybe he was pissed because he couldn't have an abortion 'cuz he didn't have a vagina.
Carly Fiorina and every GOP presidential hopeful should take a bow. American Taliban strikes again.
Maybe they should consider the same approach when dealing with unarmed black men.
Drinking the Kook Aid again. Sorry, but almost all of the BLM poster boys were serious threats to the community, starting with Trayvon Martin and 300 lb Big Mike Brown (both had just committed violent felonies that would have landed them in prison for an extended period, if they hadn't been killed by their victims). And thanks to people like you giving the BLM movement much more respect than it deserves, black deaths are significantly up this year in the communities most affected by this nonsense.
Jason said...
Every time I think liberal stupidity and obtuseness has reached it's full potential, someone comes along and brings it to new heights.
The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits
WOh the "balanced coverage " from our "liberal media" is also a wonder to behold. Even as an active terrorist situation was on the ground at PP, CNN invites a right wing congressman to slam on the organization.
I am glad they didn't invite an ISIS cleric on air while covering the Paris attacks.
I like Georgie's approach which is to assume that "conservatives" want women to be murdered.
Really, satire is dead. You can't make up stupider stuff than this.
Why assume he was Christian?
We can assume he was anti-abortion, but at this point nothing about his faith.
"Georgie said...
But seriously conservatives, when is it righteous to murder women seeking a legal medical procedure? You have a right to disagree on principal with the abortion issue and those who engage in that legal right, but you do not have a right to kill them."
Seriously, Georgie, when will you stop beating your wife?
(Hint: the belief that it's right to shoot people in an abortion clinic is not a common conservative belief)
(You can make an analogy to radical Islam when you can list the prominent GOP figures who praised Scott Roeder -- the only anti-abortion terrorist since the '90s.)
No one in PP clinic was shot. All civilian casualties were in the Chase Bank next door.
Bruce Hayden wrote:
And thanks to people like you giving the BLM movement much more respect than it deserves, black deaths are significantly up this year in the communities most affected by this nonsense.
That's because it's not about saving Black lives. It's about increasing the political leverage of activists.
Those black friday mobs blocking stores in big cities? They aren't their to be in-your-face to the white shoppers. They are are there to show Apple and the other merchants that they can shut retail down.
All civilian casualties were in the Chase Bank next door
So, the robbery was planned, the abortions were unplanned, and the visit to Planned Parenthood was a convenient vehicle to present a tragic irony.
We're there any prolife protestors or anyone praying outside that was injured?
I really don't want to look at the news reports now.
Not sure where you found the information about no one in the PP clinic being shot, but rather in Chase Bank. NBC News (Planned Parenthood Gunman Gives Up After Colorado Standoff That Left 3 Dead) just a couple of minutes ago still gave the impression that the action still revolved around the PP location. Pls get me a link. Thx.
Oh, and the picture of the suspect, Robert Dear, is a bit scary. With his fairly full white beard, I cannot see him being transgendered. Except, and unless, he was using that to lure unsuspecting targets. Rather, I still expect that it will come down to a reaction to those disturbing PP videos. We shall see.
My point is, he entered the clinic but did not shoot it up. strange behavior....
Yep, this is weird. He might be a RWNJ, but if he was, he really should have had a higher body count at the clinic. Where'd you here that he was shooting up people in the clinic Georgie? Denver Post and The (Colorado Springs) Gazette have said nothing about that. In fact, The Gazette has one of the only eyewitness accounts, which took place outside the PP Clinic.
Btw, the guy doesn't look transgendered at all. Sorry, guys.
Renee said...
Why assume he was Christian?
We can assume he was anti-abortion, but at this point nothing about his faith.
Until you know all the facts you can't assume anything.
From what I've read he shot up the Chase branch next store and took refuge in the PP offices.
Nut jobs don't use reason.
"When is it righteous to murder a woman seeking a legal medical procedures?" Um....never?
Now it's the time for you to produce the evidence that shows conservatives are saying it's ok to murder people who get abortions.
"No one in PP clinic was shot. All civilian casualties were in the Chase Bank next door."
So a crazed Sanders supporter?
garage mahal said...
Carly Fiorina and every GOP presidential hopeful should take a bow. American Taliban strikes again.
From the little we know about this guy, there's a good chance he never heard of Fiorina. Apparently he lived in a mountain cabin in North Carolina with no electricity. A modern day Thoreau. A Green hero.
The idea that you can reach any conclusions about what motivated him with the information available is ludicrous.
I am not a big fan of Planned Parenthood, which I think lost its way a while ago on some important matters. Nevertheless I think they deserve some congratulations on their preparation for an event like this.
It appears that their facility was configured to assist a well trained staff in responding to an event like this. The training was probably the key. People seem to have known what to do, and to have done what they were supposed to under stress.
We share the concerns of many Americans that extremists are creating a poisonous environment that feeds domestic terrorism in this country.
If we aren't careful, someone could kill millions of our children in furtherance of an extremist ideology...........
Extemists? Look who talks.
You cannot "assume the guy was a Christian," if the door to the PP clinic just happened to be the closest one to him when the cops arrived and started shooting back.
The photos of the guy look like another psychotic. Garage will disagree, of course, but I wonder if garage would recognize a psychotic.
What part of ""We don’t yet know the full circumstances and motives behind this criminal action, and we don’t yet know if Planned Parenthood was in fact the target of this attack." does Garage Mahal not get?
And I love how, if Black Lives Matter vitriol suggests cops be murdered, and then cops get murdered, it has NOTHING to do with BLM's language. But if Fiorna says nothing about murdering abortion doctors EVER, merely having a problem with PP means you want abortion doctors to die. Even though, as established, no one is sure about whether PP was even a target in this case.
Wait, Tom is saying no one inside was shot, someone above was saying the man was shooting through walls and killing/wounding patients inside. Which is it?
This is why I take a few days before commenting on situations like this. Loads of information, misinformation and just plain wrongformation.
"Maybe they should consider the same approach when dealing with unarmed black men."
Yeah..the narrative on this has switched overnight. Now it's folded into #blacklivesmatter. Covers the ass if the shooter has no or inconvenient ideology.
I love how reuters decided while it was unfolding to go into a little lesson on the abortion issue:
"DEEPLY DIVISIVE ISSUE
As in much of the rest of the country, abortion is a divisive issue in Colorado, figuring prominently in attack ads during last year’s U.S. Senate race between incumbent Democrat Mark Udall and Republican challenger Cory Gardner, the winner of the election.
At least eight abortion clinic workers have been killed since 1977, according to the National Abortion Federation - most recently in 2009, when abortion doctor George Tiller was shot to death at church in Wichita, Kansas.
Clinics have reported nearly 7,000 incidents of trespassing, vandalism, arson, death threats, and other forms of violence since then, according to the abortion-rights group.
Read more at Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/28/uk-colorado-shooter-idUSKBN0TG27D20151128#iSZGDLFWvixt7qRf.99
If the shooter identifies as female, why does he have a full beard?
Nevermind that, Michael K and others try to turn this into a LGBT smear
I have read a couple of the articles on the attack. 2 things pop up.
1. Nobody inside the PP has been reported killed or even attacked except by police who were trying to shoot through walls.
2. Nobody reporting on this seems to know a damn thing. But all the lefties sure seem to know stuff.
So, is Drudge correct that the shooter is a self identified female, but with a penis?
Because the narrative might have a problem with this one, if true.
Bruce Hayden said...
almost all of the BLM poster boys were serious threats to the community,
You should look at the videos showing the homicides of Tamir Rice and Eric Garner and explain, exactly, how those were necessary deaths and not the result of grossly incompetent policing.
"safe, supportive environment?"
I bet all those dead babies whose parts are harvested and then sold for profits on the black market would disagree about it being "safe". Unfortunately, they could not be reached for comment. Ever.
"We can assume he was anti-abortion"
I wouldn't assume even that. Going on what we now know, it may seem like a safe assumption (that PP was the target, and that it was because he is anti-abortion). But considering that CNN is playing this one very cautiously (I think they know or strongly suspect something we don't), I will not be surprised to find this is not the Holy Grail that anti-gun, pro-fetal-chopshop people are visibly desperate to see. Before people make silly assumptions about me, I am pro-gun, but of no strong opinion either way on abortion. I understand the major arguments of both sides, and feel it is not a simple issue except at the extremes (a fertilized egg is not a baby, a 9 mo fetus is).
If the killer isn't Muslim, he's "another psychotic." Lotta armed white psychotics in this country , who have killer a lotta people lately but hey , what can we do but pray?
jr565: "What part of ""We don’t yet know the full circumstances and motives behind this criminal action, and we don’t yet know if Planned Parenthood was in fact the target of this attack." does Garage Mahal not get?"
LOL
ALL of it.
"The photos of the guy look like another psychotic. Garage will disagree, of course, but I wonder if garage would recognize a psychotic."
Of course, if you think you can "recognize a psychotic " by looking at their photo, then you yourself have got some fairly serious problems.
If the shooter has self-identified as a woman for years, it must be accepted. Violence among women is getting out of hand. The Lefties here that can't accept facts can enter one of their re-education camps. If the FBI doesn't class this as a spree killing by a female, the whole system should be shut down.
The transgender thing is based on a voter registration record where he is listed as female - could be intentional or unintentional error on his part, or unintentional clerical error by the person entering the info in the database.
AReasonableMan wrote:
You should look at the videos showing the homicides of Tamir Rice and Eric Garner and explain, exactly, how those were necessary deaths and not the result of grossly incompetent policing.
You just moved the goal posts from racial policing to incompetent policing. I suppose we should thank you for that at least.
If they were incompetent, why would you also characterize them as "necessary". Necessary implies intent. If we are to establish that the policing was incompetent, it might stand to reason that a death might have occurred. That's built into the idea that incompetency was involved.
But that's not what BLM is arguing. They are arguing RACISM.
In the case of Garner, he was loitering in front of a store. He was arreseted repeatedly for the same crime and all times previously nothing happened to him. There was no intent to do anything other than arrest him. There was no instance of cops profiling him. THey were responding to a specific complaint. And had arrested him so many times they knew him as cigarette man. This was routine for the cops. It's cigarette man again. he's loitering in front of the store again. We're going to arrest him again. Totally routine. He resisted.
All cops did was drag him to the ground so they could put hand cuffs on him. one guy did not apply a choke hold. Instead he grabbed him around his neck and shoulder area and pulled him to the ground. Because of his size, that may have been the best way to do it.
A judge did not find what the cop did to be excessive. At any rate it does not fit the BLM meme.
Tamir Rice was brandishing what looked like a real pistol. It wasn't a toy gun, it was a replica that looks like a real gun. There was no orange tip on the gun. And he was pointing it at people. Prompting them to call cops. If the cops arrive and he looks like he's going for a gun they are not going to say "hmmm, maybe its a replica". they are going to respond.
We have orange tips on toy guns for a reason. Because cops have shot kids/young adults who had toy guns before. We have orange tips on guns because of a case of a white college student (I believe) who was shot by cops because he had a gun from laser tag, and pointed it at the cops. His gun probably looked a lot less real than Tamir's.
So, again, we need to look at each individual case and see the particulars to judge whether the cops were in fact negligent or racist.
If only negligent, we shouldn't acribe racism to their actions, since they were based on negligence not racism.
ANd if they are not even determined to be negligent then we shouldn't ascribe negligence.
Cops can operate under a pretense that turns out to be false. But if they think they are in danger, they can act to protect themselves. It may result in a tragic accident. It doesn't mean they are necessary wrong or racist.
Mark wrote:
If the shooter identifies as female, why does he have a full beard?
Nevermind that, Michael K and others try to turn this into a LGBT smear
So you think anyone who identifies as a woman can't also have a beard? How far along the process are they? DId they get their balls snipped yet? You can identify as a member of the opposite sex, and yet still maintain some masculine characteristics.
As to why they said that, well, Instapundit had posted a link that suggested it:
"BECAUSE THINGS AREN’T WEIRD ENOUGH THIS YEAR ALREADY: #ColoradoSprings shooter’s only online documentation suggests HE identifies as a female.
The 24-hour rule applies, but the way things are going in 2015, this seems plausible. . . ."
His link led to a tweet by BOb Owens who provided the Data.
Is it true or not? Who knows. which is why instapundit said "24 hour rules apply"
ARM should look up the meaning of the word "almost" and then rewrite or (better) delete his 11:55 comment. The fact is that (a) most of us would be a lot more sympathetic to BLM if they spent more time talking about Tamir Rice and Eric Garner and less time (or none) complaining about the totally justified shootings of Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown, but (b) they keep on ignoring the former and complaining about the latter. Do they, or whoever is subsidizing them, want more polarization and less cross-racial cross-party-line agreement? It sure looks like they do.
assume he was anti-abortion, why? movie shooters are anti-movie?
So, is Drudge correct that the shooter is a self identified female, but with a penis?
Because the narrative might have a problem with this one, if true.
--
Probably just do another pivot to mental health care and/or LGBTBLT acceptance.
For the life of me, I don't know why the police let some criminals survive. It would have been easy to just rub him out.
Now the poor citizens will have to endure this man for the rest of his life.
We had a man shoot a cop here locally, and when it was over they counted 17 wounds to his body at the autopsy.
Now that's the way to do it.
Mark, as to why Owens said he was identified as female, its because he looked up the guys Colorado voting record and came up with this:
http://coloradovoters.info/by_number/6010/10372_robert_lewis_dear.html
ROBERT LEWIS DEAR, JR.
was born in 1958 and she registered to vote, giving her address as 809 OURAY CT, HARTSEL, PARK COUNTY, COLORADO 80449. Her voting status is: Active. She is unaffiliated.
Later on is listed as "female" where it says "gender"
So, its not a smear, but it is curious. He/she does identify as female according to voter info.
Is that info correct or a typo? who knows. All Bob did was say her voting records identify him as a her.
And they do.
Take it up with Colorado, if you think its a smear. Bob and Instapundit did not make up the info. Nor did they say it necessarily meant she was a trannie. It simply says "according to Colorado records" he is identified as a she.
THe left is so brazenly obnoxious about this. First it was about how repubs and pro lifers are at fault for their violent rhetoric. (not that they can actually produce examples of this rhetoric that supposedly targets abortion proviers). Then shift to it being about guns. And conservatives are responsible there too.
Never let a crisis go to waste.
Then people like Mark say "Nevermind that, Michael K and others try to turn this into a LGBT smear".
Though the left wasn't tyring to turn this into a pro life smear, or an NRA, smear, or a conservative smear, right?
Garage Mahal all but insinuated causality, even though the post says "we don't know the motivations behind the attack.
Id have more sympathy against the smear against the LGBT community if the left wasnt' so blatantly smearing repubs and demagoging them at every turn.
Also, if the lgbt smear were actually a smear. No one is saying he is transgender. They just noticed his recrods suggest he identifies as a female. What is the meaning of that? Is it a weird error, or is there more to the story than we think. If no one says "Its' because of x' (LIKE GARAGE DID) then its not a smear.
You should look at the videos showing the homicides of Tamir Rice and Eric Garner and explain, exactly, how those were necessary deaths and not the result of grossly incompetent policing.
Rice was shot apparently possibly trying to pull a fake gun that looked like a real gun from his pants in response to a police radio call that a black man kept pulling a gun from his pants. The part about it being possibly a fake gun, and that he was possibly a kid were apparently missing from the radio call - and hence maybe your incompetent policing. But, the reality is that many, if not most, cops in this country rolling up on someone identified essentially as armed, seeing that person appearing to pull their gun, will probably respond with deadly force. Or die because they didn't. And, since the gun might have been real, even if the dispatcher had noted that it might be fake, and that he might have been an adult, even if the dispatcher had noted that he might be a kid, the missing information from the radio call might have not changed the result. His race was mostly irrelevant too (this is something that parents of any color should teach their kids not to do), except possibly for imitating all the gang bangers in the neighborhood with their guns stuck down their pants. Why should anyone be surprised that a kid who was probably pretending to be a gang banger, like all those in the neighborhood, by pulling his gun from his pants, is shot when the police mistake him for what he is probably pretending to be - a gang banger pulling his gun to shoot at the police?
And Garner? He was being arrested (yes, for something stupid - but you need to blame the progressive mayor for that), and refused to cooperate. He was actively resisting arrest at the time that he was choked. Again, we all know that when the police want to arrest you, that you should go along peacefully. The actual cause of death appears to ultimately have stemmed from his obesity. Not sure what you expected the police to do here, with a really big guy who wasn't allowing the police to arrest him. They could have given him a citation - but he had ignored dozens that they had given him in the past. They could have gotten more cops - except that there were already a half dozen or so around.
So, how about we look at the statistics of how many black non-cops kill other blacks every year? Or, even how often cops kill blacks as contrasted to whites (controlled by the number of violent crimes committed by either group)? We are probably talking hundreds of blacks killed by other blacks every year for every black killed by a cop. And, yes, the killing of blacks by cops are most often legally justified, typically as self-defense (which is what happened with Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin (who was killed by a cop wannabe)).
Then, again, how did ARM hijack this conversation into this nonsense?
Guy sure doesn't look like a he/she. Wonder if they mistakenly marked "female" instead of "male" on the voting application.
They do look like you would expect from Hertsel. It is in South Park (yes - that South Park), on the route from Breckenridge to C. Springs. Used to go through there a lot in college, and would often stop for the candy in the small general store in town. Pretty desolate part of the state - back when my grandparents had a girls camp, they would sometimes board their horses over the winter in South Park, and would inevitably lose one or two to the elements. It is high and open, with cold winds screaming across it in the winter. Parts of the fringe are wooded, and not so bad. Hertsel is not included there.
Dr Weevil wrote:
ARM should look up the meaning of the word "almost" and then rewrite or (better) delete his 11:55 comment. The fact is that (a) most of us would be a lot more sympathetic to BLM if they spent more time talking about Tamir Rice and Eric Garner and less time (or none) complaining about the totally justified shootings of Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown, but (b) they keep on ignoring the former and complaining about the latter. Do they, or whoever is subsidizing them, want more polarization and less cross-racial cross-party-line agreement? It sure looks like they do.
I disagree with you on Garner and Tamir, but the latest shooting of Laquan may be an example of the cops (or an individual cop) legitimately engaging in police brutality and excessive force.
I can admit when a cop goes over the line. BUt I can't say yet whether its racism that caused him to shoot Laquan. It COULD have been. But its not established yet that it is. If it is, then those are the facts. Some cops can be racist. I wouldn never make a blanket statement about all cops not being racist. You take it on a case by case basis.
And I'll note that the prosecutor is charging him with murder. So, its not an example of the police dept sweeping it under the rug. People may not have liked how quickly the prosecutor was in coming to his conclusion, but I have no say either way on that. What's too long? How do I know his motivations, even if I were to agree that he should have come to the conclusion a few weeks earlier.
If the cop winds up in jail and he did engage in excessive force that led to the death of someone, then I hope he rots in prison.
This may be the first case brought forth by BLM that actually meets their criterion for a black person shot by cops that posed no threat.
It started out as a robbery. He needed money for a sex change operation. I think I've seen this movie before--something about a Dog Day.
"At least eight abortion clinic workers have been killed since 1977,"
How many have media talkers and writers killed in that timespan I wonder?
They sure as shit won't tell you, that's for damn sure.
This is a link detailing a small fraction of the abuse and murder committed in journalists' name since 1977.
Weep. Weep long and without a shred of pride.
The not-boring take on this gruesome mass-murder?
What if the murderer was aborted in the 1960's *BUT* was given the chance to come back in a time machine and grow up and kill people at a bank (next to an abortion clinic) for overcharging his account with monthly fees, increased atm fees both in and out of network, check cashing fees if you write a personal check to a friend, and overseas phone operators who he couldn't understand?
Should the people or deity('s) who made the time travel possible be asked what criteria they used to determine how the mass-murderer made the cut but not the next would-have-been Charlie Sheen for example, as far as the aborted go?
JR, if you want to stand and accuse the left of running with poorly sourced facts that seem like speculation ... why did Michael K and others post it on this thread?
Or can someone just say '24 hour rule' and say war they want and not be held to it.
Don't accuse the other side of something you are doing.
I have my own 24 hour rule ... don't speculate wildly and call people out who do (while claiming not to).
harrogate said... [hush][hide comment]
If the killer isn't Muslim, he's "another psychotic." Lotta armed white psychotics in this country , who have killer a lotta people lately but hey , what can we do but pray?
Are you insinuating that any particular mass murderer is not psychotic? Which one is/was not psychotic? Which one was not prescribed anti-psychotic meds?
It my well be that we have 3 dead and 9 injured just so that this guy can have free room and board for the rest of his life.
From the article at the link -
"The shooting came at a time when Planned Parenthood has been criticized because of surreptitious videos made by anti-abortion groups of officials discussing using fetal organs for research."
That gratuitous sentence is as carefully crafted as it is superfluous to the actual story. "Surreptitious" rather than revealing. Check. "Anti-abortion" rather than pro-life. Check. "Using" rather than selling, and ignoring changing procedures to make sure those organs are harvested intact. Check. Did all those naturally trip off the fingertips of the writer, or did someone edit that sentence to make sure that the correct impression of PP under siege was reinforced.
Even as PP actually distances itself from speculating about motive. Even should it turn out that the PP office was not central to this nutjob's actions. The NY Times would like you to know that PP is central to this story. Focus people!
This is an interesting statistic. Thanks to property forfeiture laws:
'In 2014, for the first time ever, law enforcement officers took more property from American citizens than burglars did.'
Maybe people here should get their news somewhere other than conservative outlets. This article and other TV news reporting has been saying the shooter was roaming the halls of the clinic shooting through the walls( it was seen via security cameras) to get at the PP patients and staff. The police also shot through walls to get to the shooter. Don't get confused. Both were shooting through walls to get to their targets.
Harrogate wrote -
"If it were Muslims shooting up clinics / theaters/ sororities/ schools/ etc., of course , the country would be losing its goddamn mind. Same with movie theaters, schools, etc. But it isn't Muslims so it can't be terrorism and can't represent a violence problem in the U.S. It's just "disturbed individuals" and whaddyagonnado."
Oh I don't know. If recent history is any guide, our betters have downplayed religion whenever a muslim was involved domestically, and emphasized that these actors were "lone wolves" which I see as equivalent to your "disturbed individuals." See Major (workplace violence) Hasan. Or even more obviously the Boston Marathon bombing. That was a terror attack, but we were not to infer anything beyond the two brothers themselves.
Doctor Tiller's murder is I believe a clear case of someone motivated by abortion acting out his evil plan according to his own logic. But this? I have no idea because the reporting so far has been so opaque.
Bruce Hayden said...
Rice was shot apparently possibly trying to pull a fake gun that looked like a real gun from his pants in response to a police radio call that a black man kept pulling a gun from his pants. The part about it being possibly a fake gun, and that he was possibly a kid were apparently missing from the radio call - and hence maybe your incompetent policing. But, the reality is that many, if not most, cops in this country rolling up on someone identified essentially as armed, seeing that person appearing to pull their gun, will probably respond with deadly force. Or die because they didn't. And, since the gun might have been real, even if the dispatcher had noted that it might be fake, and that he might have been an adult, even if the dispatcher had noted that he might be a kid, the missing information from the radio call might have not changed the result. His race was mostly irrelevant too (this is something that parents of any color should teach their kids not to do), except possibly for imitating all the gang bangers in the neighborhood with their guns stuck down their pants. Why should anyone be surprised that a kid who was probably pretending to be a gang banger, like all those in the neighborhood, by pulling his gun from his pants, is shot when the police mistake him for what he is probably pretending to be - a gang banger pulling his gun to shoot at the police?
When you have no rational argument you apparently resort to verbose nonsense. Did you watch the video? How do you justify the cops behavior?
A few things I've learned about this incident.
1) He could be female, because maybe he self identifies as female. But it doesn't matter in this case, because he's been labeled a Right Wing Nut Job and that narrative must stick.
2) The BLM group (And their supporters) wants to use this to say white people are treated differently by cops than black people. Because anecdotes are better than statistics.
3) We don't know his motives yet, but it doesn't matter, the sooner we can call him right wing the better. And the gullible believe it.
4) Blogger harrogate said...
If the killer isn't Muslim, he's "another psychotic." Lotta armed white psychotics in this country , who have killer a lotta people lately but hey , what can we do but pray?
I saw a post on twitter supporting harrogate here, must be the new leftist meme. Basically showed that Muslims have committed 20 something murders in the USA while white people have commited 40 something. Although surely the numbers are greater than that since 2001, they purported to show that these killings were based off radical ideology. I read through some of the supposed killings, one of them was a guy who flew his plane into a building (Anyone remember this?) the guy clearly was on the left, but was labeled as on the right from the very beginning, just like the Gabby Giffords shooting, and it stuck. Guys like harrogate are easily fooled.
Great. The President says that with gun control we can stop the killing.
I wonder if he realizes that all the massacres are being conducted by retarded insane people?
Maybe we need to re-open all the nuthouses we shut down in the 60's. If you lock the nuts up, then they won't get guns, and they won't kill your mom.
Am I the only one who see's this? I mean, the death of a mother on the highway, or in a doctors waiting room is not material. What is material, is if the death was caused by a free-ranging insane person.
There-in lies the tragedy.
Zigmond Post, who told BuzzFeed News he was a neighbor of Dear’s in Hartsel, said the man once gave him anti-Obama pamphlets. Post said he once went to Dear’s home to retrieve two dogs that had gotten loose. “We were there for a minute and the guy was already handing us anti-Obama pamphlets,” he said. According to Post, Dear said “Obama was ruining the country and needed to be impeached.”
Getting a little bit closer now. It's amusing to see people here twisting themselves into pretzels to distance this shooter from any anti abortion stance. All those heavily edited PP videos regarding the "selling" of fetal body parts is exactly the kind of thing that could push someone already on the edge, over.
Blogger AReasonableMan said...
This is an interesting statistic. Thanks to property forfeiture laws:
'In 2014, for the first time ever, law enforcement officers took more property from American citizens than burglars did.'
You don't provide a link so it's hard to tell. Do they have separate tabs from property taken from non US Citizens (I'm assuming that's what they mean by American citizens, as opposed to say Canadians and Mexicans, etc)? Or is it all asset forfeiture everywhere, no matter if they are aliens and illegals?
We might have to keep a database of radical right wing anti-abortionists. That, and have armed security posted at every clinic. The shootings, bombings, and arson is just way out of control.
Anti abortion terrorism.
Interesting thing about the "eight abortion clinic workers . . . killed since 1977": without exception, the murders and the non-fatal bloodshed (shootings, stabbing, bombing) happened when a Democratic president was in office (1993-98, 2009, 2015). Maybe we should worry about the climate of violence created by Clinton and Obama. Or maybe that's a coincidence, and the problem is that publicizing these assholes produces more of them, as in the string of violent incidents in the mid-90s.
Data in my last comment from Wikipedia. If gm's desiderated database includes names, portraits, and detailed biographies, it would very likely encourage more violence. That would not please anyone at all in the anti-abortion movement, but it would (I am pretty sure) please some on the other side.
Getting a little bit closer now. It's amusing to see people here twisting themselves into pretzels to distance this shooter from any anti abortion stance. All those heavily edited PP videos regarding the "selling" of fetal body parts is exactly the kind of thing that could push someone already on the edge, over.
11/28/15, 3:19 PM"
Getting closer to what? Apparently he's nuts and the cops messed up by not taking him out. What he did doesn't take away that infanticide is still infanticide and selling baby parts is still selling baby parts but what he did isn't justified either. So far the only thing you have managed to say infanticide is Ok but killing those involved with infanticide is not OK. Here is a clue:the people who you accuse here of pretzel twisting aren't in favor of murder or infanticide. It's you who are twisted; adult murder bad, baby killing not so bad.
garage mahal said...
We might have to keep a database of radical right wing anti-abortionists. That, and have armed security posted at every clinic. The shootings, bombings, and arson is just way out of control"
We could do that but it would be more efficient in terms of preventing unlawful homicides by restricting abortions by recognizing the inherent humanness of babies.
Question: If the police were indeed firing into the building, is it possible police rounds struck some of the victims?
"exactly the kind of thing that could push someone already on the edge, over."
Yes..so lets not give contentious issues scrutiny..because..crazy shooters.
Of course, while this gets oodles of attention, how many will be killed in Obama's gun controlled Chicago this weekend?
Renee said...
Why assume he was Christian?
We can assume he was anti-abortion, but at this point nothing about his faith.
***************************
As others have pointed out, we can't assume that he was anti-abortion, especially since the whole thing apparently started out in the parking lot.
At the same time, this long after the incident, now that the authorities have had a chance to look at the guy and check his residence, we can safely assume that there is no connection between the shooter and pro-life groups, We can safely assume this BECAUSE the authorities haven't released any information about a link. We can also assume that anything they have found points to a lone nutcase, and further, that any motivation to the nutcase doesn't fit the narrative. Else it would have been released. Sort of like the authorities not pointing out Gore's book as an essential part of the Unabomber's library. An inconvenient truth, you might say, to point it out.
If he had been a halfway competent killer, who set out to kill as many as possible, there would be a lot more dead. Motive is the most important thing we don't know.
Dr. Weevil is right about one thing: right wing white terrorists are more active in the United States during Democratic administrations.
The American socialist party is very defensive when people question them about selective-child policy, the "final solution." And cannibalism at Planned Parenthood corporation... Well, no one dares classify that progressive sect of the pro-choice cult.
The alleged gunman in Friday's Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs, Colo., said “no more baby parts” to law enforcement officers after he was taken into custody, NBC News reported Saturday evening.
Now we are getting yet even closer to his motivation. This is on conservative extremists, but I'm sure we will hear exclamations that conservative extremists shouldn't be lumped in with mainstream conservatives. Ironic when one recalls just last week the hysteria over Syrian refugees and all the lumping them in, by those on the right, with extremist Muslims. Oh the hypocrisy.
(a fertilized egg is not a baby, a 9 mo fetus is)
It's a baby, beginning with the fertilized egg, if the woman carrying it says it is. A woman who wants to be pregnant refers to and considers the life she carries in her womb a baby. A woman who doesn't want to be pregnant and plans to terminate the pregnancy refers to and regards that life as a fetus or, perhaps, a clump of cells. Choice requires that it depend entirely upon the disposition of the individual woman and therein lies much of the problem.
In some states, anyone who murders a pregnant woman will be charged with two counts of murder. But what if that woman was murdered en route to having her pregnancy terminated? Should the same legal standard apply? Surely one can not murder a clump of cells. And what about this nine months business? On average, pregnancies last 38 weeks from conception (the gestation period is shorter than it used to be). And one out of 10 deliveries is preterm. What standard should we use to determine at what point that fetus becomes a baby?
In any event, I learned long ago not to assume facts not in evidence. We will know what this man was about when we know it. Until then, it's pure speculation and far too much of that speculation is contrived to serve an agenda.
Georgie said...
Anti abortion terrorism.
11/28/15, 4:17 PM
Exactly how are you tying this to Trump?
@ Bill Crawford
Question: If the police were indeed firing into the building, is it possible police rounds struck some of the victims?
I am intrigued that 24 hours after the shooting, there has been absolutely no reporting on the two civilians that died - can understand no names yet, but nothing on age, sex, where they are from, where they were when shot. etc. It's almost as if they never existed.
Good God, Georgie,
Equating this guy to ISIS abusing refugee process? Try again.
Apparently, the dude recommended that a neighbor get a metal roof so the government could not spy on him. Doesn't sound like the most well wrapped individual.
I'm not seeing Georgie's point at all. Even if the baby parts sale was the motivation in some part of this man's troubled mind, are we supposed to stop reporting facts because of it? You are essentially advocating not only for the end of anti-abortion speech, but the end of all communication of any kind. No, the irony is not lost.
I'm still trying to equate "no more baby parts" with "conservative extremism."
Anyone that could help me on this?
Reporting facts and twisting facts are two entirely different things. The videos were meant to inflame, that is exactly what they did. Now this attack and murder at a Planned Parenthood. Sorry but the right is going to have to own this one.
Is it proper to call anti abortion killers 'radical Christian terrorists', or 'Radical conservative terrorists' now?
Is it proper to call John Brown a radical Christian terrorist?
Abraham Lincoln objected to Brown, and I do too.
Do you object to John Brown?
Georgie thinks you have to be some kind of crazy extremist to find cutting up unborn babies and selling the parts objectionable. If PP had stopped doing that when they were caught, or DOJ had shown the slightest interest in prosecuting them, or people like Georgie had showed some glimmer of awareness of just how horrible and disgusting and criminal it is to do such things, perhaps this guy wouldn't have been inspired to commit his own horrible and disgusting murders.
I mean, we all agree that it's wrong to murder unsuspecting policemen from ambush, don't we, while at the same time agreeing that there would probably be fewer such murders if fewer unarmed suspects ended up dead at the hands of the police? I mean, the latter in no way justify the former, but cutting down on the latter might still help. It certainly couldn't hurt. We do agree on that, don't we?
The problem with PP cutting up babies to sell for parts is not that conservatives - and just about anyone who knows what they're doing - object to it, it's that they're doing it in the first place. Of course, Georgie is just repeating a talking point when says that the videos were "heavily edited".
Having now read Georgie's latest (8:59pm), I'm going to have to call him a goddamned liar. "The videos were meant to inflame, that is exactly what they did." The videos were not meant to encourage murder, and Georgie knows it. They were and are meant to shame PP into stopping the sale of baby parts, or (failing that) to convince the DOJ to prosecute the PP swine for their crimes, or at least to convince federal and state legislatures to stop giving tax dollars to the filthy ghouls at PP.
Perhaps Georgie could tell us exactly how the videos are "twisting" the facts rather than "reporting" them. Calling them "heavily edited" was not a good start.
Georgie..wasn't the raw footage made available?
And did they do something to the level of NBCs editiing of Zimmerman's 911 call?
What's the specific twist that you figure is the most aggregious..made to "inflame"?
Authorities who dictate lawless violence should not be shocked when citizens respond with lawless violence.
It's a bad idea to define human beings as non-persons. Please stop doing that.
Georgie thinks you have to be some kind of crazy extremist to find cutting up unborn babies and selling the parts objectionable. If PP had stopped doing that when they were caught, or DOJ had shown the slightest interest in prosecuting them, or people like Georgie had showed some glimmer of awareness of just how horrible and disgusting and criminal it is to do such things, perhaps this guy wouldn't have been inspired to commit his own horrible and disgusting murders.
I doubt Georgie would applaud what PP does -- Heinrich Himmler expressed disgust and concern when he visited extermination sites during WW II.
Georgie, like Althouse, simply believes that the PP videos are lies. She, like Althouse, also thinks that Fiorina was lying.They are both "good Germans." I think the evidence is here in the Althouse archives. Look for it. It's not hard.
It's a bad idea to define human beings as non-persons.
Debasing human life has only negative consequences. Then to maintain a pretense of acknowledging intrinsic value (e.g. civil rights, human rights, social services, refugee lives, etc.) can only logically sponsor corruption. They need to take the right actions, not with ulterior motives, but on the right principles. The luxury of the choice they have legalized and normalized is deceptive and breeds dysfunction.
Georgie: "Reporting facts and twisting facts are two entirely different things. The videos were meant to inflame, that is exactly what they did. Now this attack and murder at a Planned Parenthood."
Gee, post hoc ergo propter hoc all the live long day with Georgie!
Next up, sun rises in East tomorrow.
Yeah, 'cuz murderers.
Whatever garage mahal suffers from, it's clearly contagious.
"JR, if you want to stand and accuse the left of running with poorly sourced facts that seem like speculation ... why did Michael K and others post it on this thread?"
So, his voter registration did not say "female?" The left is immediately stating that he is a white male Republican who was attacking PP. In fact, as far as we know, he was not shooting at anyone inside PP and had listed himself as "female" on his voter registration.
From descriptions by neighbors, I would say he is schizophrenic.
"Poorly sourced" means you do not agree.
Saint Croix defends terrorism
"The videos were meant to inflame."
-- No more than any other investigative hit piece that used undercover journalist techniques. Unless we plan to pull every 20/20 or equivalent investigative news from the air, this is a stupid thing to say.
Of COURSE it was meant to influence people. It was not meant to inspire someone to murder any more than Obama telling someone to punch back and bring a gun to a knife fight was meant to inspire violence. If someone told me that Obama was trying to encourage violence, I'd call them stupid. Saying those videos were meant to incite violence is equally stupid.
So this guy lives in a shack with no electricity and plumbing, looks like he can't understand the purpose of toilet paper, and yet he knows the details of an internet video PP takedown. With a single weapon and no assistance, he is able to take out 3 police and hold SWAT teams off for 5 hours without so much as a wound to himself?
Blogger Georgie said...
Reporting facts and twisting facts are two entirely different things. The videos were meant to inflame, that is exactly what they did. Now this attack and murder at a Planned Parenthood. Sorry but the right is going to have to own this one
Some people think there is a war coming.
If they are right, then my guess is the baby killers will be on one side, and those who make videos of baby killers will be on the other.
I appreciate Georgie's comments! Those of you who are arguing with this commenter should be respectful. A range of opinion is wanted here, and I don't want this to become an echo chamber. Abortion tends to get a lot of comments, with the anti-abortion people taking over. I will use moderation to remove the personal attacks. Stick to the subject and debate on substance.
Althhouse,
Perhaps you've already sifted a number of comments, but I don't see the disrespect to which you alude. Georgie's outnumbered that's true. But Georgie has drawn conclusions and made a number of statements that commenters are challenging. Rather than address or even acknowledge the challenges, Georgie throws out further conclusions and statements. This understandably frustrates the others. Perhaps they should not play Georgie's game, but that's not my call.
Thank you Ms.Althouse, the fair moderating is much appreciated. Opposing voices are most definitely needed here and most political and social forums.
As for this shooter/ murderer's motives, daily it's becoming clearer. It looks as if he may have been an unstable anti abortion nut pushed too far by rhetoric from the right anti abortion movement and the deceptive PP videos. If the right defends this domestic terrorist they negate any argument they've made against foreign terrorists or even domestic Jihadists.
"Authorities who dictate lawless violence should not be shocked when citizens respond with lawless violence."
You simply cannot pick and choose what terrorist acts are acceptable and are acts of civil disobedience based on your own chosen belief system. Women engaging in their legal right to abortion and the medical staff that provide it, do not deserve to be killed. If you truly honor life, you honor women's lives also and you would not equivocate on the extreme wrongness of this man's act, as well as the numerous other acts of violence to Planned Parenthood clinics across the country, which increased tremendously after the deceptive videos.
There was no buying and selling of "baby parts". Women were asked if they wanted to donate, they signed a legal document to do so. The monies recieved from the research facilities that used the fetal tissue was used for transport and storage. No contract was ever agreed to between PP and the bogus CMP because CMP was asking PP to do unethical acts. Fetal donation after abortion and miscarriage has been going on for many years. Dr. Ben Carson himself was engaged in research using donated fetuses.
I'd encourage conservatives to check their double standard and hypocrisy on this one. The over the top rhetoric from the right on social issues has consequences, We have just seen some of them in this act by this person in Colorado Springs.
The Supreme Court says they don't know what a person is. John Brown murders some innocent slave-owners. People get madder and madder. A civil war breaks out. Millions of American fight, bleed, and die. Through great pain and sacrifice, we put the Fourteenth Amendment in our Constitution. No state shall deny any person the equal protection of the laws.
A hundred years later, the Supreme Court says they don't know what a person is. And repeat.
Ann Althouse said...
I appreciate Georgie's comments! Those of you who are arguing with this commenter should be respectful. A range of opinion is wanted here, and I don't want this to become an echo chamber.
Georgie should keep in mind that the same hysterical moral preeners were perfectly happy to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.
"Perhaps you've already sifted a number of comments, but I don't see the disrespect to which you alude."
I only took out one thing, but I wanted to warn people to keep it on the substantive level and not get personal, especially toward one of the few commenters who are willing to argue from the other side. The range of voices is needed and the echo chamber is boring. Those who oppose abortion tend to make these abortion threads long, but they're not readable. I know if there's one thing I skip around here, it's an abortion thread that's gone on too long. It takes a big effort to engage under these circumstances and I appreciate that Georgie is doing that.
"A hundred years later, the Supreme Court says they don't know what a person is. And repeat."
No. The Supreme Court said there is a disagreement over the point in development when the unborn is a person. It had to make the call between the state's interest in protecting the unborn and the pregnant woman's liberty interest. It drew the line in a place that already had some independent medical significance: viability. And it let the woman's interest in bodily freedom prevail over the pre-viability period. That means that the question of how to think about the personhood of the unborn was left with the woman. It's her body, and the government cannot impose upon it until viability. If the Court had to decide when the unborn is, philosophically, an individual worthy of being thought of as a human being, it would have done so. But that's not how law is done, and the Court found a way to structure the problem so that the personhood of the unborn did not have to be determined.
Ann is right that abortion is a contentious issue. Sure, on her blog, the antis tend to ultimately control the abortion debates. But, that is not true in Colorado in general. Rather, comparatively, it has long been somewhat liberal in that regards - e.g. abortion was legal in the state before Roe v. Wade. In any case, the Dem legislature was stampeded into enacting some idiotic gun laws a couple years ago, and my hope here is that they don't do worse in response to these shootings. For example, a lot of CO stores that sell handguns won't sell the iconic Glock 17 (or 19) any more. Why? Standard sized magazines for these 9 mm guns are 17 rounds, and the state limit is 15, which means that you can still buy 40 or 45 caliber Glocks, but not the much more common 9 mm (standard mag size for 40 caliber is 15, and less for 45). (You can buy Glock 17s and 19s, you just have to look, and they tend to cost more). This is the sort of idiocy that I don't want the state to stampede into, if possible. I was born in CO many years ago, and am still legally a resident, which means that I would need to give up my CO residency if I want to purchase guns, if things get much worse (I do know at least one guy talking about giving up his WA residency for ID, despite having to then pay income taxes).
Reporting facts and twisting facts are two entirely different things.
Twisting facts? How? If you have specific examples please be plain with it. The unedited videos are available for your review whenever you care to do so; if you find that the edited versions are misleading we would all be interested in your findings. However, the fact that the original videos were edited means little. If editing eliminated the value of news reporting, whether partisan or non-partisan, that would also disqualify all news reporting in human history of any sort, not to mention 99.9% of all reference books.
The videos were meant to inflame, that is exactly what they did.
Well, yes, I would agree they were meant to inflame. The problem is the very activities that were recorded naturally produce such a response regardless of reporting slant. There really is no way to spin the selling of aborted body parts in a good light. It is like claiming that reporting on an ISIS terrorist attack is meant to inflame against ISIS. This is why the "heavily edited" spin comes up so much; it is a way to attack the videos without actually having to discuss the content of the videos. The content is too toxic to speak of freely. (Coincidentally, the video in the Chicago shooting is now being claimed as "edited" as well.)
However, getting back to my original point, our shooter here appears to be unstable; according to the Daily News the "baby parts" comments was part of a disjointed rambling to the point that they still do not have a motive. He appears to have no friends and his neighbors opinions ranged from indifference to fear. While I can certainly understand the that inciting violence of any sort is to be denounced in a civil society, this cannot apply to the insane. What could set a crazy person could be anything: making eye contact, not making eye contact, giving him money, not giving him money, or any random comment that convinces the voice in his head that you are the faerie king who stole his pants. Again, you are espousing the banning of all communication of any kind.
What's really boring is when Abraham Lincoln has to keep saying, "I am not John Brown!"
"you are espousing the banning of all communication of any kind."
Well, that's painting Georgie as an extremist. I'm sure Georgie only means to ban all communication s/he doesn't like.
" If the right defends this domestic terrorist "
Have we seen this? Or have we seen the "tipping point" argument applied to a guy that as suggested, could have many such points.
As of now, we have unnamed ources saying he used the phrase "no more baby parts", though same sources supposedly said
"But the sources stressed that Dear said many things to law enforcement and the extent to which the "baby parts" remark played into any decision to target the Planned Parenthood office was not yet clear. He also mentioned President Barack Obama in statements."
But if we are to make these types of associations, lets tally up the various damage, injury and death inflicted by those "pushed" by the black lives matter movement...and not all of those are "crazies", nuch less investigated or reported as such...looking the other way. Like when folks committed perjury re: the Gentle Giant.
If yu go with abortion as his motivator, are we to believe that whether or not "baby parts" are sold or simply donated is the deciding factor?
There is no dispute that "parts" are being procured.
From all reports PP was just a convenient shooting position. From the sound of it it looks like he had a hardon against authority and was shooting from inside the building into the parking lot at police.
Nut jobs are nutjobs.
Althouse. Not all opinions deserve equal weight.
Especially when loaded with the preconcieved opinions not facts.
Thanks.
"the right is going to have to own this one."
No they don't. Don't impose your moral code on others. My mind, my choice. We don't have to own anything.
The Left likes to tell other people what they are responsible for and tell themselves that what they're not responsible for.
What's really boring is when Syrian refugees have to keep saying "I'm not ISIS!". See Saint Croix?
Paddy O,
Yes, you do, yes you will. It's not your choice. The choice was made for you by the extremists in your ideological group. You can stamp your feet and get red in the face, what's done is done. Conservatives own the rhetoric.
It drew the line in a place that already had some independent medical significance: viability.
Althouse, you know this is sloppy. They drew the line at birth. Birth is when a baby has a right to life. An unborn infant at 9 months is defined by our authorities as a legal non-person, as sub-human, as property. She has no right to life and her humanity, under our Constitution, is denied.
Over 600,000 viable babies have been aborted since 1973. I derive this number from Guttmacher's 1.2% statistic, the record for the earliest viable age, and the total number of abortions since 1973.
Also, I am reasonably certain you are aware of Mr. Blackmun's arbitrary memo, which indicates how little he cared about "medical significance."
You've probably heard of Bob Woodward. Please stop pretending that the Supreme Court gives a damn about the unborn baby's life, or the life-or-death question. They do not care, or they would have applied our death statutes to this controversy a long time ago.
You simply cannot pick and choose what terrorist acts are acceptable
Georgie, when I say I disapprove of John Brown, I am including the modern day John Browns.
I'd encourage conservatives to check their double standard and hypocrisy on this one. The over the top rhetoric from the right on social issues has consequences, We have just seen some of them in this act by this person in Colorado Springs.
Recognizing the humanity of the unborn child is not "over the top rhetoric." It is honest and true. This is why, for instance, Ann Althouse never runs photographs of aborted infants on her blog. The truth of the dead baby upsets her, and us. And if she did run photographs of abortion on her blog, it would be dishonest and wrong to say that this "over the top rhetoric" inspires vigilante justice.
Speech is speech. Violence is violence. It is true that honest reporting of violent acts might inspire other people to engage in violence. But they are responding to the violence. You want to put a stop to the violence, stop the violence. Censorship is just a delaying tactic.
Pretty clear here who is stomping their feet, Georgie.
No one is advocating censorship. The over the top rhetoric is claims, like the ones made by Carly Fiorina that the aborted fetuses were handled in a way in which to keep them alive or intact in order to harvest a better brain or heart or whatever organ. Her untruthful claim that she saw this in a video. She saw a miscarried fetus. The videos were presented in a way to make it sound as if PP were profiting from the procurement of fetal remains. Other medical facilities also ask women who have miscarried if they want to donate the fetus. The mistruths about PP's motivation is what may have driven this anti abortion nut job to do what he did. No need to censor, just call out misinformation and mistruths when they are evident. Why do we not hear an outcry about the gruesome nature of autopsies in medical school? I suspect videos made by bogus entities with an agenda could drum up some nut case to go shoot up a medical school too.
"Yes, you do, yes you will. It's not your choice. The choice was made for you by the extremists in your ideological group. You can stamp your feet and get red in the face, what's done is done. Conservatives own the rhetoric."
No, no I don't. You don't have any moral ground. I think you're being oppressive and authoritarian. I think you need to stop and think about how you're using tragedy to aid your own sense of political correctness.
It is my choice. The choice isn't made for me. You don't get to say what my choice is on this or any matter. I defy that and the attitude that makes you think you get to police other people's obligations.
Liberals own slavery, and harvesting baby parts, and Woodrow Wilson, and the bombings in Syria, and the poverty in inner cities. Liberals and the abortion lobby own Kermit Gosnell. They own these things because not only do they create the systems that allowed them, they actively covered up and fought for the very abuses that were being committed.
So, pointing out "editing" or whatever excuse, stamping your feet and pointing fingers elsewhere, always quick to throw the first stone, second stone, third and fourth stones doesn't work. Especially while never attending to those in their own movement who rob in the name of government and destroy lives.
Conservatives at least think those who kill in the name of a cause deserve to go to prison. Liberals think those who commit terrorism in the name of liberal causes deserve to be professors of education and advisers to the President.
So, yes, I'll call out evil as evil, crazy as crazy, but that doesn't mean that the causes themselves are wrong or it's wrong to call people out for how they are participating in a death-oriented system like abortion.
tl:dr version: your moral posturing is neither very convincing nor sincere as it clearly is using tragedy to advance your own political goals. Which is, really, sad, because real lives were affected in this very real tragedy. Just as all sorts of real lives are affected when people make choices about which lives are valuable and which lives are disposable.
Paddy,
I am not commenting to advance my political goals. I am shoving the complicity of this violent terrorist act in conservative's faces, where it belongs. Planned Parenthood clinics have been demonized by conservatives across the board. Words inspire and incite unstable people to act. Conservatives own it, yes they do.
"Why do we not hear an outcry about the gruesome nature of autopsies in medical school? I suspect videos made by bogus entities with an agenda could drum up some nut case to go shoot up a medical school too."
This is why I love the Internet. I lack the imagination to come up with stuff this comically ludicrous all on my own.
Georgie wrote: The over the top rhetoric is claims, like the ones made by Carly Fiorina that the aborted fetuses were handled in a way in which to keep them alive or intact in order to harvest a better brain or heart or whatever organ. Her untruthful claim that she saw this in a video.
I for one would like to hear what Carly Fiorina actually says about the shootings. It would be much more relevant than your rants.
Georgie said...
Paddy,
I am not commenting to advance my political goals. I am shoving the complicity of this violent terrorist act in conservative's faces, where it belongs. Planned Parenthood clinics have been demonized by conservatives across the board. Words inspire and incite unstable people to act. Conservatives own it, yes they do.
So you're admitting you're part of the mob calling for conservative blood.You claim not to be advancing your political goals and in the next breath condemn conservatives. This tell me you're more interested in apportioning political blame than arriving at a true motive. Georgie. we still don't know the guys motive. We do know that he severely mentaly deranged. it's not a terrorist act Georgie. It's a crime by a madman. Acting on his own.
Hows dat perfessor?
BLM supporters come in three kinds or degrees:
a. Those who think way too many blacks die at the hands of police, but don't lie about how it happens. Plenty of conservatives (Mark Steyn, for one) agree, though they tend to emphasize that way too many people of all races are shot by the police in the U.S.
b. Those who lie about particular instances, alleging (for instance) that Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown were just walking down the street minding their own business when police shot them for no reason.
c. Those who encourage people to take revenge for these deaths by murdering any policeman they can. Some of them do so openly, like the demonstrators who chanted "Pigs in a Blanket: Fry 'Em Like Bacon" and Louis Farrakhan,
Quite a few policemen have in fact been shot dead in ambush situations this year. Are BLM supporters guilty of their deaths?
It seems to me obvious that members of group (a) are entirely innocent of those murders, members of (b) are arguably somewhat guilty, though it's a tough argument either way, and members of group (c) are obviously guilty morally and probably also (IANAL) legally.
Can Georgie distinguish between these classes of anti-abortion people? Will (s)he? Can (s)he even find an instance of group (c) - anti-abortion people praising the murder of abortionists and their helpers? I don't mean anonymous internet trolls, but actual named columnists or politicians who approve of what Dear did. Does Sarah Palin support killing abortionists? Ted Cruz? Dick Cheney? Rush Limbaugh? Catholic bishops? Any conservative leader whatsoever? Simple answer: no, Georgie can't name any such person. Georgie can't even seem to come up with solid evidence for the existence of a group (b) of anti-abortion people: (s)he alleges lies, but the allegations are just linkless talking points and have already been refuted elsewhere.
Yet somehow everyone on the right - even those (like some Ace of Spades commentators) who were openly disappointed that a man who shot 5 policemen and 6-7 other people was taken alive - are guilty. Unless Georgie thinks the entire BLM movement is guilty of the recent ambush murders of policemen, (s)he is a total hypocrite. Which is it?
Georgie, was this part of the highly edited bit?
Buyer: We need liver and we prefer, you know, an actual liver, not a bunch
of shredded up
—
PP: Piece of liver.
Buyer:
Yeah. Or especially brain is where it’s actually a big issue, hemispheres
need to be intact, it’s a big deal with neural tissue and the progenitors, because
those are particularly fragile. If you’ve got that in the back of your mind, if you’re
aware of th
at, technically, how much of a difference can that actually make if you
know kind of what’s expected or what we need, versus
—
PP: It makes a huge difference. I’d say a lot of people want liver. And for
that reason, most providers will do this case under u
ltrasound guidance,
so they’ll know where they’re putting their forceps. The kind of rate
-
limiting
step of the procedure is the calvarium, the head is basically the biggest
part. Most of the other stuff can come out intact. It’s very rare to have a
patient
that doesn’t have enough dilation to evacuate all the other parts
intact.
Buyer: To bring the body cavity out intact and all that?
PP: Exactly. So then you’re just kind of cognizant of where you put your
graspers, you try to intentionally go above and b
elow the thorax, so that,
you know, we’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we
know that, so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m going to basically crush
below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.
And wit
h the calvarium, in general, some people will actually try to change
the presentation so that it’s not vertex, because when it’s vertex
presentation, you never have enough dilation at the beginning of the case,
unless you have real, huge amount of dilation to deliver an intact calvarium. So if you do it starting from the breech presentation, there’s dilation that happens as the case goes on, and often, the last, you can evacuate an intact calvarium at the end. So I mean there are certainly steps that can be taken to try to ensure—
Buyer: So they can convert to breach, for example, at the start of the-"
PP: Exactly, exactly. Under ultrasound guidance, they can just change the
presentation
Georgie said...
I am shoving the complicity of this violent terrorist act in conservative's faces, where it belongs
Ann Althouse said...
I appreciate Georgie's comments!
Apparently moderation is a positive goal only when it implies a criticism of the right.
Well..she's right in the sense that if a Georgie didn't show up here, one woudl have to be invented. But the plea for civility is a bit tortured in this case.
But in my excerpt from the transcript, I accidentally left off this which is the next line:
PP: So the preparation would be exactly the same, it’s just the order of the removal of the products is different. And most people see that as not very-
---
"product"
Transcript here
"There was no buying and selling of "baby parts"
That's illegal. They are either too stupi/lazy to google. You'd think that the fact that PP has been endlessly investigated and not one charge has been filed would set off that little light bulb in their heads. Could be be there is no bulb. Could be they just don't care and they are perfectly happy lying about it. Always hard to tell.
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