Althouse: "It sucks. It sucks that this has to happen to my daughter in 6th grade. It sucks that it's only the beginning."

September 20, 2015

"It sucks. It sucks that this has to happen to my daughter in 6th grade. It sucks that it's only the beginning."

"It sucks that she has to learn about her body in the context of men noticing it. I want her to be a strong girl, teen and woman. And I feel helpless. It's only going to get worse, and she needs to be ready. She needs to be ready so she can spot it and move past it. She needs to be ready, so she doesn’t believe what they say and can choose to disagree...."

67 comments:

Megaera said...: First thing, she needs to stop whimpering. That would be really helpful for her daughter.; 9/20/15, 11:29 AM
CStanley said...: Well it is gross but it's sad that this Mom sees it as a moment to mourn her daughter as a victim. She thinks she's helping by expressing this instead of empowering her daughter to see her sexuality as a power that men react to this way because they fear their own loss of power.

Not saying I would express it that way to a child at that age, but if the mother understood it in that context she'd be better equipped to react appropriately. I see from the rest of the piece that she is a survivor of sexual abuse as a child so I can understand why she doesn't get it though.; 9/20/15, 11:29 AM
Fred Drinkwater said...: 1) Forget it, Valerie, it's Chinatown.
2) How to protect your daughter from this? Are you kidding me? Move the hell away from there.
I have limited sympathy for parents who voluntarily live in a cesspool.; 9/20/15, 11:31 AM
madAsHell said...: The article is trolling for angry feminists, and over-wrought grandmothers.; 9/20/15, 11:32 AM
jimbino said...: It sure seems a pain to grow up a woman: such a short time from childhood to adultery, from the first catcalls through puberty to becoming invisible.; 9/20/15, 11:34 AM
MadisonMan said...: The example of the blonde who was accosted by the limousine guy: WTH don't you start laughing at him and telling him he's an idiot? Or something like that? Sure, no one acknowledged her being harassed. At some point you have to be responsible for your own life and not wait for someone else to rescue you.

It seems to me that a Father's point of view would be helpful for this pre-teen daughter.; 9/20/15, 11:36 AM
Sydney said...: I remember the first time I became aware of men looking at my daughter in a longing way. It wasn't blatant catcalls, just a direction of their eyes to her breasts and a look back as they passed on the street. It was disconcerting to me as a mother, but I didn't say anything to her. She was 16. I just figured she had reached another milestone.; 9/20/15, 11:37 AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: I don't think it's particularly angry or political. She's expressing the quite reasonable fears of a parent of daughters. Nowhere did she say the cat caller or douche in the limo were representative of all men. Shit, both those creeps should be dragged behind a truck. Thank God I have sons.; 9/20/15, 11:40 AM
Gahrie said...: I don’t think the preteen years needs to be a time of shame. I don’t think puberty needs to be a time of fear.

Puberty is a time of fear for everyone, not just little girls.; 9/20/15, 11:40 AM
Chuck said...: So that whining appears on a blog post with replete with selfie pictures of the mom and her daughter, I gather.

And the topic-headings for the blog include "Sex/Love, Beauty, Issues, Clothes, IHTM, Entertainment, Xovain."

I had to look up "IHTM" and "Xovain."

And there was this from the post in question: "Now, I could say that he was just giving us a compliment. I could say he was talking to me, and his comment had nothing to do with my daughter. I could say that he is weird, and we live in LA, and LA is weird."

That would have been a good ending. But LA isn't the only place that is weird. There is a whole great big world out there that worships scantily-clad young women and makes them spokespersons for their gender and/or their generation.

Don't blame this on men, or "rape culture," and certainly don't blame this on men who are white male protestant Republican banker evangelical Christian whatevers. That general grouping might be the favored hate-object of the feminist left, but Miley Cyrus, Rhianna, Madonna and Beyoncé have a lot more in common with the media/left in the era of Obama than do Christian Republicans.; 9/20/15, 11:42 AM
Darleen said...: No where in the article is dad.

Where's dad?

Where's the dad of the blonde boy in the limo?

Fathers matter to both sons and daughters and we have, as a society, rejected their role at our own expense.; 9/20/15, 11:47 AM
Chuck said...: Since Althouse lives just a short walk from one of the temples of Big Ten football, and lots of her readers are pretty connected, by work or at least by history to college football environments that attract thousands/millions on any given fall Saturday, it is pretty funny to note the contrast, between the anti-sexual assault rhetoric of the Obama Administration (and now large swaths of Democratic political circles), and the dress and behavior of young women at those football games.

Don't believe me? Head to Camp Randall, or Michigan Stadium, or Spartan Stadium, or Doak Campbell, or Sanford Stadium or two hundred other similar places on a warm fall Saturday.; 9/20/15, 11:49 AM
Darleen said...: BTW

What happened to the strong women who knew how to cut down the boorish behavior with a withering look or a sharp retort?

We need to train more Dorothy Parkers ..; 9/20/15, 11:54 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: The daughter needs to be raised to be 'feisty'.

I am Laslo.; 9/20/15, 11:56 AM
Anonymous said...: "I remember the first time I became aware of men looking at my daughter in a longing way. It wasn't blatant catcalls, just a direction of their eyes to her breasts and a look back as they passed on the street. It was disconcerting to me as a mother, but I didn't say anything to her. She was 16. I just figured she had reached another milestone."

*************

Perhaps you should raise tiny Fists of Fury heavenward, to curse God, Mother Nature or the God of Nature (take yer pick)for equipping your daughter with the secondary sex characteristics meant to promote reproduction.

Why is it that testosterone is a poison, but estrogen is not? Why is it that men "noticing" the things Nature expects and encourages them to notice, are bad, while cougars stalking younger men is celebrated , with TV shows depicting and encouraging it?

Basta!; 9/20/15, 11:57 AM
rhhardin said...: Tim Blair, in one of his podcasts with Joe Hildebrand, contemplated the far-off day when catcalls would go "Wow! Look at that strong independent woman!"

There are only five of them so far, well worth a listen. Everything is out of format, including overhead jet airplane noises and Joe's wife coming home talking on the phone and ignoring them.

The podcast on Cecil the Lion is not to me missed. Who would have thought that the nemesis of this king of the African jungle would be a dentist from Minnesota, they ask.

The only difficulty is Australian diphthongs.

podcast 5
podcast 1-4; 9/20/15, 12:00 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Say Mom, you keep teaching her "icky men" and "male predators" and she'll go the lesbian route. Get a life.

I'll go with the comment by "Darleen Said".

As a father, I taught my daughters to know who they were, what they were, and to respect themselves. That's how you train girls to take care of themselves around loutish males.

If I'd had sons, I would have taught them how to protect themselves from either predatory or desperately needy females. {I met some such in my teenage and early adulthood days.]; 9/20/15, 12:04 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: "The predator lives everywhere. He lives on our streets, in our grocery stores, on our billboards and in our malls. He constantly reminds us what our value is and where we belong. How do I teach her to catch him, see him and to protect herself from?"

Teach her boys and girls are the same, bullies win in life, and therefore she needs to catcall 50 year old men and make them feel icky.

Equality!

Or, only allow her to interact with women, who we all know never hurt girls psychologically or physically.

This is why the fantasy "Mean Girls" was created, to show a fake world where women attack weaker sisters sadistically, otherwise no women/girl could comprehend such a ludicrous concept.; 9/20/15, 12:04 PM
jr565 said...: Oh, my god! People might notice her body! Must be shielded from that.
In some ancient cultures if the peasants looked at the royalty they could be whipped. Because the royalty were sullied somehow when a commoner looked a them.
Is modern feminism pushing the equivalent of that? It sure sounds like it.
Feminism however is almost reversing it, but saying that women can't be looked at because they are victims, as opposed to being royalty. STill, its the same result. Entitled to have no one look at you because you are so special.
What world are people living in?; 9/20/15, 12:06 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Tactically, catching and then seeing and then protecting is more difficult than seeing first, then catching and protecting, although how does a 70 lb kid protect herself from a dangerous grown man by catching him? Maybe protection doesn't involve catching, but even if it does I would recomend seeing first.; 9/20/15, 12:08 PM
jr565 said...: If she ever wants her daughter to actually be picked as a gf/spouse by a man, she's going to have to allow them to check out the goods.
Maybe she would advocate women wearing burkhas.; 9/20/15, 12:08 PM
campy said...: All men are rapists, and that's all they are.; 9/20/15, 12:08 PM
rhhardin said...: Another Tim Blair podcast moment mentions a woman co-worker who had been featured in a lifestyle spread of important women in the news media.

They made her wear makeup and nice clothes, they commented. It's the patriarchy oppression all over again.; 9/20/15, 12:10 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: What is with the mother's oral fixation when talking about her daughter?

Editor, hello!; 9/20/15, 12:10 PM
Jason said...: Will we see similar articles in the media about gay men cruising for twinks?; 9/20/15, 12:11 PM
rhhardin said...: It may just be women's weakness in physics that's the problem here.

Sight works by receiving what is sent out by the thing seen. It does not proceed from eyebell to woman, as women think.

Think of it as being in heat.; 9/20/15, 12:13 PM
chickelit said...: The author's other "works" fill in the necessary gaps in the ongoing narrative.; 9/20/15, 12:35 PM
Darleen said...: wait ... the author is 29 and has an 11 year old daughter ...

I just figured out where dad is ...; 9/20/15, 12:43 PM
Fernandinande said...: still plays with small plastic animals

Doesn't everyone?

Australian diphthongs

My favorite plastic animal.; 9/20/15, 12:48 PM
James Pawlak said...: She should teach that young Lady the effective use of firearms, (Castrating) knives and other such useful devices.
SELF-DEFENSE PROTOCOLS
AGAINST CRIMINALS [OF ANY AGE] PRESENTING A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER OF DEATH OR
GREAT BODILY INJURY TO OTHERS

1. From the FBI---"Two to the chest and one to the head”; OR,
2. From the SEALS/SAS---"A double tap to the head"; OR,
3. From the "Old Sarge"---"Four inches with the point and twist the blade, REPEAT"; Or,
4. From other sources--- "An intense strike to the temple, spine or "Adam’s Apple" with a heavy cane OR use of the point of a cane or umbrella or “teacher’s pointer” to the throat, groin, eyes or male genitals---Followed by a disabling/killing thrust to the base of the skull or spine.

The only insurance that an attacker or bully or other tyrant is no longer a danger is when s/he has stopped breathing.; 9/20/15, 1:03 PM
Sebastian said...: @CStanely: "it's sad that this Mom sees it as a moment to mourn her daughter as a victim. She thinks she's helping by expressing this instead of empowering her daughter"

No, teaching her she's a victim is the modern form of empowerment. Will serve her well.; 9/20/15, 1:08 PM
fivewheels said...: "The author's other "works" fill in the necessary gaps"

The number of women in journalism who are so narcissistic that all they do, and seemingly all they can do, is write about themselves and any mundane moment in their lives (I cut my hair!) is astounding. This piece isn't even about her daughter. It's about herself.; 9/20/15, 1:25 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Did the catcalling make you feel uncomfortable? You know the answer I'm looking for.; 9/20/15, 1:51 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I'm mostly taken aback by the audacity of someone directing a catcall to the young woman's parent. That's an adult flagrantly disrespecting another adult.; 9/20/15, 1:56 PM
YoungHegelian said...: Obviously, I was sexually active all through my twenties, but there is a difference from being what others want and finding what you need.

Dialectical thinking isn't the author's strong suit, I guess. When you're out there "finding what you need", aren't you objectifying the other person as much as a cat-caller is?

But, that's different, because women don't objectify the objects of their sexual desires. Nuh-uh. Never. Not at all. Nihil. The null set.; 9/20/15, 1:58 PM
YoungHegelian said...: Oh, and by the way, notice that the author never mentions the ethnicity of the catcaller of mom & daughter. Since this happened in LA, I can make a real, good, educated guess.

That multiculturalism can be a tough row to hoe sometimes.; 9/20/15, 2:01 PM
Michael K said...: "No where in the article is dad.

Where's dad? "

Nowhere, obviously.; 9/20/15, 3:00 PM
Leslie Graves said...: The article is about a 50-year-old catcalling an 11-year-old. That's gross behavior. It is upsetting the first time (and maybe the first 20 times) it happens. It was quite alarming to me when some guy in his 40s sauntered up to me on the street in a small, small town in Wisconsin when I was 12 and announced with a leer in his voice that he liked how I looked in my jeans. Ugh, and creepy, but also alarming.

This mom isn't really making her daughter out to be a victim and it's not happening because of where she lives. It isn't happening because of anything to do with ethnicity. It isn't happening because there isn't a dad in the picture.

It also isn't entirely obvious just what a young girl ought to do about it, when it does happen. Nor is this about men and, as some commenters think, their generic biological tendency to notice secondary sexual characteristics while out and about.

It's about that small, small percentage of creepy guys who take a certain glee in engaging in sexual bullying of girls who are much younger, much smaller and much less tough than they are.; 9/20/15, 3:03 PM
Etienne said...: Michael K said...No where in the article is dad.

I don't see this as an article written for Dads, or even that Dad's get involved.

Girls learn how to deal with this shit from their peers, and their mothers.; 9/20/15, 3:07 PM
walter said...: Good questions Darleen,
If anything, the subtext of her own claimed abuse and teen pregnancy show up in her reactions. Maybe her daughter will come to better conclusions.; 9/20/15, 3:09 PM
SukieTawdry said...: This girl badly needs a positive male role model in her life. Mom obviously comes with a lot of baggage.; 9/20/15, 3:14 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "It's about that small, small percentage of creepy guys who take a certain glee in engaging in sexual bullying of girls who are much younger, much smaller and much less tough than they are."

Exactly. Mom may or may not be a feminist nut job but I see nothing in her piece that isn't the quite proper and responsible concern of a mother for her daughter's safety. I'm amazed at the number of ostensibly conservative commenters here who seem to be cool with middle-aged, cat-calling creepo's behavior.; 9/20/15, 3:24 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: Not to sound all internet macho, but the guy desperately needs a serious beating. Where I live he would get it, sooner rather than later.; 9/20/15, 3:28 PM
Unknown said...: Victimhood = power in this woman's universe. In that context, why would anyone believe a word of this rant? I put the odds of any of it being true at about 50/50. There are points to be made in opposition to her complaints, granting them sufficient truthiness, but the incentives to make up this sort of story need pointing out as well.; 9/20/15, 3:54 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: The other day, while taking my lunch lap around the block, a limo pulled up to the intersection and a twenty something boy stuck the top half of his body out the window and yelled at the blonde next to me.

...

No one did anything. No one even acknowledged that a woman was being harassed.

So... why didn't you do anything?; 9/20/15, 3:57 PM
Phil 314 said...: Professor;
How did you find this site?; 9/20/15, 4:05 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Phil, it's in a collection of bookmarks I have had for years. I probably first saw it discussed in a news article about websites for womem.; 9/20/15, 4:15 PM
Grackle said...: I doubt this incident ever happened. It is too convenient for the narrative.

False Grackle; 9/20/15, 4:34 PM
Darleen said...: I'm amazed at the number of ostensibly conservative commenters here who seem to be cool with middle-aged, cat-calling creepo's behavior.

I must have missed it. Care to link to such comment of "cool with creep's behavior"?; 9/20/15, 6:11 PM
Paddy O said...: "It's about that small, small percentage of creepy guys who take a certain glee in engaging in sexual bullying of girls who are much younger, much smaller and much less tough than they are."

Yes!

The trouble comes in the tendency to use a small subset to generalize about such behavior. Though, I'd suggest this is where it is about fathers too. A father models respectful behavior in how they treat their family members and how they treat strangers. A girl learns the behavior of the stranger is aberrant rather than standard, and learns how to reject such men (whether they're 50 or 20).

Plus, a father's presence can shield a daughter from such behavior.

My daughter is only 3, and I realize this is going to be a reality we face together as she grows up. Of course, the parents job is to help kids navigate all the various perversity, creepiness, temptations, etc. that are out there. Many of which are also socially accepted but not good for her well-being.

The role of the parent is to keep their wits about them, there is a lot of beauty and a lot of good adventure out there, but also dragons and storms.; 9/20/15, 6:17 PM
Bob Loblaw said...: No, teaching her she's a victim is the modern form of empowerment. Will serve her well.

Sure, until she tries to have a normal relationship.; 9/20/15, 9:04 PM
rcocean said...: Look Young girls need to undestand how to react to unwanted Male Attention. Too bad, she had to start so young, but girls are reaching puberty younger and younger, while cultural standards get lower and lower.

Maybe the guy who catcalled her was smoking pot, then it'd be OK? Right?; 9/20/15, 9:36 PM
rcocean said...: I had an aunt who told me her response to 1940s sexual harassment was a swift knee to the groin. It always seemed to work.; 9/20/15, 9:38 PM
CatherineM said...: Leslie Graves. That's perfect.

Between 11 and 12 I had so many men say gross things. It was really startling. The worst being a guy in a K car wagon pulling up to me and my friends in the 6th grade walking home who said, "Wanna fuck?" I am sure he got off on our horror. We ran screaming to the house of another classmate where the mom fed us and told us a story about a how as a girl our age a friend's dad exposed himself to her. I suppose it was to say, some men are creeps, it is nothing new, but I was like, oh no. This is what I have to look forward too? I don't want to know.

Strange, but I think Leslie is right. It's a certain creep who look for girls of a certain age. It's didn't happen when I was older and I learned to roll my eyes at the typical cat calls.; 9/20/15, 10:14 PM
Alex said...: Notice, nowhere is a father to be seen. There is the society you created feminazis - without fathers.; 9/20/15, 10:27 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/21/15, 1:19 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: One thing that isn't mentioned is that average age of menarche appears to have been dropping for awhile, and drinking of hormone augmented milk may be partly to blame. Plus a bit of childhood obesity, or at least carrying of a bit of extra weight at those ages. Both of which can be avoided.

That said, catcalling and the like is not universal in this country. Rather, it seems to have a large ethnic and sociology-economic component. It appears most most odious and most prevalent when crossing these boundaries. But it also, as some above pointed out, has a geographic component. You are not likely to see it up here in NW MT, where a lot of the young males still address me as "sir". And it isn't much worse in the parts of CO where I spend the other half the year. It just isn't done. If you want to live in one of those trendy progressive enclaves where this sort of thing is common and almost acceptable behavior, then don't complain to the rest of us who don't and won't. If all lifestyles and backgrounds have equal merits in your eyes, then don't complain when those of a different background, etc makes you and your daughter nervous doing what they do to their own women and girls.; 9/21/15, 1:29 AM
Mark said...: And if the father is at work, will you all stop asking where he is?

Leslie Graves nailed it, meanwhile people here blame the Mom or daughter for being catcalled.

And they wonder why the war on women meme is so easy to spread ...; 9/21/15, 8:41 AM
SGT Ted said...: Railing against biology is insane.; 9/21/15, 9:15 AM
Peter said...: "It sucks that she has to learn about her body in the context of men noticing it. I want her to be a strong girl, teen and woman. And I feel helpless."

More accurately, men should notice her body only when/if she wants them to. And when she doesn't, they shouldn't.

Therefore, men must always know when she wants to be noticed, and when she doesn't. And, perhaps, to improve their accuracy they should be severely punished if/when they make a mistake.

Because, well, just because.

(But really because we've chosen to put freedom, including sexual freedom, above all other values. And therefore popular culture has become overtly sexual, and inevitably popular culture becomes a large part of practically all tween's lives.); 9/21/15, 11:00 AM
Paddy O said...: "Maybe the guy who catcalled her was smoking pot, then it'd be OK? Right?"

Or a famous Hollywood director.; 9/21/15, 11:07 AM
Alex said...: This is about creep shaming low-status men. It's ok for high-status men to hit on women, not the low-status men.; 9/21/15, 11:11 AM
Paddy O said...: "Maybe the guy who catcalled her was smoking pot, then it'd be OK? Right?"

Or an Afghan military leader.; 9/21/15, 1:28 PM
Nichevo said...: Maybe even the inferior races (there I said it, and will retreat into irony if called, as when R&B fag-baits somebody) would not long employ a strategy that did not work. Therefore, cat-calling must be adaptive behavior.

The fact that it might not work on YOU. Well, it's a low cost strategy and they make it up in volume.

I don't know why you want to cock-block the NAMs, poor things. But do reflect - sometimes IT WORKS. What does that tell you? Perhaps if women were better, men would not do this?; 9/21/15, 2:08 PM
walter said...: "cool with creep's behavior"

Darleen..I think he means anything less than suggesting a beating...not that he's being all macho or anything. No.; 9/21/15, 2:30 PM
Paul said...: What about men who have to define their body based on women noticing it?

Surely he understands nature made two of the same species, man and woman. Both are essential, and both are different.

Wait.. I guess he can't. Poor daughter.; 9/21/15, 5:49 PM
Nichevo said...: As Laslo might say,

It sucks, but does it swallow?

I am NOT Laslo.; 9/22/15, 10:16 PM