Althouse: "But even if a spouse doesn’t reject a partner’s transition, most are, according to therapists and trans experts, unlikely to remain in the marriage."

September 22, 2015

"But even if a spouse doesn’t reject a partner’s transition, most are, according to therapists and trans experts, unlikely to remain in the marriage."

"Anecdotally, this seems especially true when the transgender person’s partner is male. 'In my experience providing support for partners of people in transition, the majority are women,' says Helen Boyd, a gender-studies professor at Lawrence University whose writing about her own husband’s transition has become required reading for those dealing with this issue. 'Men either don’t stay or don’t seek support.'"

From a New York Magazine article titled "My Husband Is Now My Wife: Trans Women’s Wives on Their Own Dramatic Transformations."

104 comments:

YoungHegelian said...: 'Men either don’t stay or don’t seek support.'"

As a man, my only response is "No shit, Sherlock".; 9/22/15, 10:34 AM
Jason said...: SHOCKER!!; 9/22/15, 10:35 AM
Ann Althouse said...: The question isn't why men don't adjust, seek help, and please, but why women do.; 9/22/15, 10:36 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: No, the question is why you are obsessed with with an 0.0003 outlier. Most people are worried about their jobs and raising their kids safely; 9/22/15, 10:40 AM
MadisonMan said...: @althouse, Because women are better then men.; 9/22/15, 10:40 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "@althouse, Because women are better then men."

The feminist position has long been that this is a problem for women, thinking that we are the ones who must adjust and accommodate the happiness of others and to do what is pleasing. I think presenting women as superior in this situation is ignoring a major theme of the feminism of the last half century.; 9/22/15, 10:42 AM
Ann Althouse said...: But I do get that the presentation of the material -- in the quote I posted -- is evidence of what some people are nice enough to call "the Althouse rule."

My aim with that rule is to recognize the distortion.

(The rule, for the uninitiated, is that whatever is shown to be true of the woman is presented as superior.); 9/22/15, 10:44 AM
Jaq said...: Sorry, if my wife decides she wants a dick of her own, I am also going to go with the theory that she wants a place to put it. Not interested, thank you very much. As much of a dinosaur as this makes me.; 9/22/15, 10:45 AM
MadisonMan said...: There's a big difference between men staying with what is now a man, and women staying with what now is a woman, constrained by how society views two men living together vs. two woman living together.; 9/22/15, 10:46 AM
Jason said...: This doesn't seem like a hard question. If women are more likely to stay in a marriage after a sex change, they can still get a provider out of the marriage compact.
Men don't need women as much for economic security. We want a sex partner and mother for our children.

If Bridgette becomes Bruce around the house she's not going to be a mother for our children.

Plus, statistically, women are more likely to be libtards.; 9/22/15, 10:47 AM
bleh said...: What are the stats on married heterosexual women who decide to become men? That has to be extraordinarily rare. Much rarer than the very rare phenomenon of married heterosexual men who decide to become women.; 9/22/15, 10:51 AM
Dan Hossley said...: The current obsession with transgender issues explains Donald's Trump standing in the polls.; 9/22/15, 10:52 AM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: While watching a "Dancing With The Stars" episode that had Chaz in it my wife commented that she was wondering how Chaz's partner felt about this whole transsexual thing. After all, Chaz's partner was a lesbian who had hooked up with a lesbian. Presumably because she was sexually attracted to women. And Chaz was having surgery to be a "male." And as a lesbian Chaz's partner would not be sexually attracted to Chaz once he became a "man."

Seems kind of like Chaz was betraying her.; 9/22/15, 10:53 AM
Todd said...: Ann Althouse said...
The question isn't why men don't adjust, seek help, and please, but why women do.

9/22/15, 10:36 AM

Because if you are a cis-normal guy in a marriage, one is the correct number of penises and two is too much.

If you are a woman, there are ways around the loss of a penis (in a marriage).; 9/22/15, 10:56 AM
Unknown said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/22/15, 10:57 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: The question isn't why men don't adjust, seek help, and please, but why women do.

Men produce lots of sperm but women produce few eggs is a good enough answer for me.

In the movie Eyes Wide Shut, Tom Cruise invokes that one and he gets an eye roll from Nicole Kidman.

I thought that was well played.; 9/22/15, 10:59 AM
SteveR said...: I think its hard to draw any meaningful conclusions about the sexes in general based on such an uncommon occurrence. At the very least you can't really know "cause vs effect" anecdotally.; 9/22/15, 10:59 AM
MayBee said...: Yes, this is a great example of that rule.

Why would one stay? You would end up with a whole different partner. They way the new person looks, talks, relates to the world. The things they want to talk about, they thinks that interest them, the way they present themselves to others, including you. I guess you would stay if you feel that person still needs you or if you like that new person.

The idea that "this is who they've always been" might be true internally, but to other people, even those closest.; 9/22/15, 11:03 AM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: In that episode Chaz was able to ascend a staircase without having an embolism, heart attack, or stroke. For this incredible feat Chaz received a standing ovation.; 9/22/15, 11:04 AM
Sebastian said...: @MM: "Because women are better then men."

Good one.

@AA: "The feminist position has long been that this is a problem for women, thinking that we are the ones who must adjust and accommodate the happiness of others and to do what is pleasing. I think presenting women as superior in this situation is ignoring a major theme of the feminism of the last half century"

No. The feminist position was always to pretend that this is a problem for women. In any case, difference feminism never had a problem with presenting women as inherently different and distinctly superior.

Stick to your rule, Althouse.; 9/22/15, 11:04 AM
MayBee said...: Another, similar phenomenon is women who care for a wandering or philandering spouse who becomes seriously ill.

I heard an actor- was it Richard Belzer?- who had a wife and child, and then an affair, and left the wife for the new woman. He soon got cancer, and moved back with his wife, who cared for him. Then he recovered, and went back to the new woman.; 9/22/15, 11:05 AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "I think presenting women as superior in this situation is ignoring a major theme of the feminism of the last half century."

I don't think "superior" quite describes it. Supine?; 9/22/15, 11:08 AM
tim maguire said...: Dan Hossley said...The current obsession with transgender issues explains Donald's Trump standing in the polls

The current obsession with transgender is evidence that liberals no longer have anything real to complain about.; 9/22/15, 11:08 AM
Jaq said...: I remember reading a lament by a lesbian that transgender surgery was taking all the good bull dykes.; 9/22/15, 11:09 AM
Jaq said...: Maybe if he stops watching Bravo and takes up golf...; 9/22/15, 11:10 AM
Birches said...: We already know that woman to male transition is much more rare, so that's one reason.

Many of the men who transition don't really go Butch, do they? Hence, there's a complete personality shift. I'm reminded of the male sportswriter Mike Penner, who became Christine Daniels. Christine and Mike were complete opposites. That's got to be hard to deal with, regardless of the anatomy and hormone issues...; 9/22/15, 11:11 AM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: My vows started with:

I, Ignorance, take you, MrsIgnoraceToBe, to be my wife...

If you now intend to be something other than my wife then you have fundamentally broken the deal. I would no more stay in such a "marriage" then I would in a marriage where my spouse decided that from now on they intended to sleep around, and even to do so publicly.; 9/22/15, 11:11 AM
tim maguire said...: MayBee, by the end of that story, I was wishing I could leave his wife for a new woman. If ever a woman deserved to be thrown over...

I prefer Oenone, who Paris left to chase Helen of Troy. When he was wounded in the Trojan War, she had the power to save him, but let him die anyway. Screw him, he had his chance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology); 9/22/15, 11:16 AM
Skeptical Voter said...: Ugh.; 9/22/15, 11:17 AM
Static Ping said...: If you make me guess...

Men are more concerned about sex than women, at least from a physical perspective. If you take sex away from a man, or make it uncomfortable, the man is much more likely to walk away. In the sex change scenario, you end up with these three problems:

1. The wife is now a man. From what we see in polling, men are significantly less flexible in sexual preference than women and, therefore, should be much more likely to reject the new situation. He wanted a woman, he married a woman, the wife is no longer a woman. He has male friends; he does not have sex with them.

2. Most likely the wife is significantly less attractive as a man than she was as a woman relative to her sex. From what I seen, most of the sex change recipients look more like the original sex in drag rather than the new sex. This is compounded by the fact that women can use make-up to cover up imperfections and get boob jobs while men generally do not use make-up nor have an obvious plastic surgery avenue.

3. Men are less likely to tolerate a sexless marriage.

Also, as mentioned prior, if he wants children the wife now husband cannot provide them naturally anymore. Sure, you can use a surrogate and in vitro, but that's expensive and not nearly as satisfying. If the wife did not save any eggs, then he might as well just get another woman.

I suppose if you want to get snarking, it may be that women are more tolerant of mental illness in their partners. Whether that is true or not I do not know, but it seems women stay in abusive relationships at a higher rate. I would say that changing your sex is abusive to the partner in most cases.; 9/22/15, 11:17 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Women can white-knight too.; 9/22/15, 11:24 AM
Michael K said...: No, the question is why you are obsessed with with an 0.0003 outlier. Most people are worried about their jobs and raising their kids safely

Yes and this.

"i was a man trapped in a woman's body. Then my mother gave birth."; 9/22/15, 11:27 AM
Deirdre Mundy said...: We could solve this problem combining sex change with Legal Death. So, John Doe and Jane Doe are married. John Doe decides to become Joan Doe. During the surgery, John Doe legally dies. Jane is now a widow and inherits the estate, and she's no longer married. Joan Doe emerges from the surgery as a totally new and free individual. No entanglements. If Joan wants to pursue a relationship with Jane, she may, but Jane has no obligations to Joan as they've never been married.

The same applies for jobs, social clubs, etc. John has died, the organizations grieve and move on. Joan is welcome to apply for John's old job, but she may not get it. Especially since she doesn't have John's degree and resume....; 9/22/15, 11:27 AM
traditionalguy said...: Transitioning is going from alive to dead. Using that to describe changing your gender
Is apropos.

Men are the guardians who stay loyal to the person. The problem must be the born again woman to man seeking another woman( genuine one that is); 9/22/15, 11:30 AM
Magson said...: This is an issue kinda close to me as one of my closest friends was married to a guy who transitioned. They were on the road to divorce well before he did so, but it still got really weird. His own children don't call him "Dad" anymore, but by his chosen female name. And he's straight, so now as a woman that makes him a lesbian, it seems. The sheer hell that this put my friend and their kids through, though... she felt completely worthless, like she wasn't good enough for him when he was trying to make her over into the woman that he wanted to be. When he couldn't reshape her how he wanted, that was when they divorced, and then he began his transition it brought all of it up to her again. Sure, it gave her some closure at least "he made me get the fake boobs that he wanted to have" kind of thing, but it also made her feel worthless all over again - like she'd done something wrong and this was his way of trying to deal with it.

Add in the confusion of his kids -- now dad's becoming a 2nd mom but still has a relationship with a new stepmom. How do kids ranging in age from 4 to 14 deal with that? And with her trying to deal with it she became a complete and total flake for a while.

Fortunately she's re-married now to a wonderful guy who's extremely stable himself and she's stabilized as a result. The kids love him to death and are doing well. All in all a happy ending, but still... havoc was wreaked. There's really no other way to say it. It was complete havoc -- mentally and emotionally, for everyone close to him, and thus it rippled out to all who knew them as well. I think it's a much bigger deal than simply "following your heart" or "being who you really are" or whatever pious mouthings our so-called elites are trying to make it.; 9/22/15, 11:31 AM
Swifty Quick said...: What I wonder about is if we're going to pander to the mentally ill, how and why is it do we discriminate between them? Some such as schizophrenics and such still get locked away like we normally used to do to all, yet others we've for some reason now decided we're going to release from the funny farm and give them perpetual tongue bath status. It's hard to keep up.; 9/22/15, 11:33 AM
Nichevo said...: You know, if we killed about thirty people, this issue would never be aired again.; 9/22/15, 11:34 AM
Nichevo said...: And no, Zeb, very little locking up anymore. Some robed geniuses decided that for us a few decades ago.; 9/22/15, 11:34 AM
Bay Area Guy said...: @Magson

Very powerful story, thanks for sharing.

I'm amazed how glib some of the elites view this issue, with a total blindspot on how "transitioning" (whatever that means) can destroy families and devastate the kids.; 9/22/15, 11:46 AM
David Begley said...: The most famous one is the CEO of biotech giant United Theraputics. The woman stayed married to the man after he switched and became a woman. She is the highest paid woman CEO in America.; 9/22/15, 11:48 AM
Ann Althouse said...: If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened.

You do not have to have sex with you spouse. It seems to me that if your spouse changes to the opposite sex from what you think you married, then you are confronted with being forced to be a sexual orientation that you are not. You can't change your sexual orientation, though I suppose you might discover in yourself a homosexual (or bisexual orientation) that you hadn't thought about before. After all, you married this person.; 9/22/15, 11:51 AM
Paco Wové said...: "if your spouse changes to the opposite sex"

This is an astonishingly sloppy statement for someone who is normally so persnicketty about the precise and proper use of language. Unless we've suddenly all turned into fish.; 9/22/15, 12:01 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: "If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened."

My wife and I were walking our dogs in our subdivision one day and came upon a neighbor mowing his lawn. He had recently started getting bunches of tattoos. I'm talking about vampires and floating eyes and similar things covering his arms and upper body. My wife asked him how his wife felt about that and he stated that she did not like it, but had agreed that it was his body and he could do with it what he wished.

As we were walking away, and out of his hearing, my wife turned to me and stated, "you know that's not correct, right?"; 9/22/15, 12:03 PM
Michael K said...: "The sheer hell that this put my friend and their kids through, though... she felt completely worthless, like she wasn't good enough for him when he was trying to make her over into the woman that he wanted to be."

This is similar to the situation when a friend of mine, a urologist (Is there a hint there?) came out as gay. He had had a long time relationship with another guy since medical school so I don't think it was a new thing but he was married to a very nice women and had two daughters with her.

She had a real problem with alcoholism for years after but eventually settled down with a nice guy and got married again. She was an attractive woman and seemed too tight and needed to be the perfect hostess when they were married. Afterward, she was much more relaxed once she got over the drinking problem.

He was very good to his daughters and they seemed to have a good relationship with him. His gay partner was also a friend of mine and was a very competent anesthesiologist. They had a very successful crystal store in Laguna and had a very active social life which ended with both of them dying of AIDS.

I can't imagine children having to deal with a transgender parent. Personally, I think it is a mental illness. Not psychosis but a serious neurosis.; 9/22/15, 12:03 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "if your spouse changes to the opposite sex"

Physically impossible. It is possible for your spouse to suffer severe mental illness, mutilate themselves, and pump themselves full of hormones, though.; 9/22/15, 12:09 PM
Ann Althouse said...: ""I think presenting women as superior in this situation is ignoring a major theme of the feminism of the last half century." I don't think "superior" quite describes it. Supine?"

You misread my statement. Read it again and stress the word "presenting."

Or here, I'll reword it: It goes against a major theme of feminism to say that it's not a problem for women to frame their behavior around pleasing, help-seeking, and the adjustment of oneself to the needs of others.; 9/22/15, 12:11 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: How about a gay marriage where one of the men decides he's a chick? Afterwards everyone thinks the sane dude is straight and chaos ensues. Sitcom gold.; 9/22/15, 12:12 PM
damikesc said...: 'Men either don’t stay or don’t seek support.'"

...because the man didn't marry a dude, for starters. If it means nothing, then why go through all of the work of surgery and hormones?

The current obsession with transgender issues explains Donald's Trump standing in the polls.

No joke. Such obsession over what is, to be gentle, a mental disorder makes the culture seem unbelievably silly.

I remember reading a lament by a lesbian that transgender surgery was taking all the good bull dykes.

If the woman is gay, what, precisely, is the appeal of a masculine female?

Add in the confusion of his kids -- now dad's becoming a 2nd mom but still has a relationship with a new stepmom. How do kids ranging in age from 4 to 14 deal with that? And with her trying to deal with it she became a complete and total flake for a while.

Most "trans" seem to be the most selfish people I've ever seen.

Guess what, Sparkles --- you have kids and your needs and wants, hate to break it to you, are subservient to theirs. Even if they SAY they're OK with it, they're not. If you do it, all you are saying is that your delusions are more important to you than your kids.

If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened.

You also vowed to take them as your wife/husband. They changed the most fundamental part of the entire ceremony.

I'm amazed how glib some of the elites view this issue, with a total blindspot on how "transitioning" (whatever that means) can destroy families and devastate the kids.

Hell, my wife watches the Kardashians and it's all about how Bruce's daughters have gotten distant from the family and the other Kardashians have never met his female side. That fucked up family is more fucked up than they were before...all because Bruce wanted to feel pretty.

You do not have to have sex with you spouse.

True.

It seems to me that if your spouse changes to the opposite sex from what you think you married, then you are confronted with being forced to be a sexual orientation that you are not.

They didn't change from what one "thought" they married. It's rather easy to determine genitalia. Their spouse changed their sex, period. You are under no obligation to be married to the same sex when you never wanted to do so. Your spouse has committed fraud.

After all, you married this person

Fraud does that. Sociopathic weirdos are quite capable of fooling people. I don't, though, normally blame their victim for making a bad decision.; 9/22/15, 12:14 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened.

Yes, but you don't believe this. You believe in no-fault divorce, i.e., divorce when/if you feel like it for any reason or none at all.

This smacks of one your subtle Alinksy tactics -- make "them" live by their standards. To those who believe that marriage is a sacrament, and a permanent lifetime bond, you must be receptive and accomodating if your mentally ill wife, decides to become your husband mid-stream.

I say, respectfully, horsepucky.; 9/22/15, 12:14 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I'm amazed that anyone stays.; 9/22/15, 12:21 PM
cubanbob said...: More interesting is why Althouse is fascinated by freak shows. Setting aside issues of mental health when it comes to transsexuals, why the sympathy factor for jerks who transition after messing up other peoples lives? If the person who transitioned always knew they were trapped in the wrong body then why the charade and the ruinous behavior towards others? Stick to yourself and when you're done transitioning, meet the partner you know feel is appropriate and the partner that knows who and what you are from the onset.; 9/22/15, 12:22 PM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: I wonder if there are any guys out there, who think that they're really a chick, who've got an enormous schwantzstucker.

You know, like Peter Boyle quality.

Because if there are, I'd be willing to make them an offer for when they don't need it anymore.; 9/22/15, 12:23 PM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Oh, sweet mystery of life at last I've found you!!!; 9/22/15, 12:23 PM
gerry said...: My aim with that rule is to recognize the distortion.

The Althouse rule is to recognize gender disphoria not for what it is, a psychological disorder, but as a choice.

Dr. McHugh, former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, disagrees with the law professor: "At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. "Sex change" is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder." [Emphasis added]

Althouse is doing no one any favors by deeming the debate valid. She is only promoting disease and misery. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said, one is entitled to one's opinion, but not to one's own facts. "Sex change" is biologically impossible.; 9/22/15, 12:28 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: And how beaten down must one be psychologically to "accept" a spouse's "transition?"

The straight women who accept it need therapy. Not help-you-accept-it therapy but anti-doormat therapy.; 9/22/15, 12:31 PM
Michael K said...: "More interesting is why Althouse is fascinated by freak shows."

This is not just Ann but our sick society. I agree that this is about Trump and freak shows seem to be his stomping ground.

"Suicide of the West" is what the book is called.; 9/22/15, 12:39 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: So anyway, I never explicitly told my wife that I would never get a tattoo, but when we were married I was sans tattoos and had stated that I had no desire to get any tattoos. But I never swore that I wouldn't ever, ever get a tattoo. She may have thought we had an understanding that I wouldn't get a tattoo, but my body my choice after all.

So theoretically, I could develop a desire to get a tattoo, perhaps a portrait of Kate Hudson on my left bicep, and my wife should support me in that? Right?; 9/22/15, 12:44 PM
Ann Althouse said...: This blog is a compendium of things I've found interesting, so you shouldn't be asking why am I interested, but why are you reading? What motivates you to post to ask why I'm interested?! Why are you interested, is your real question. Don't project. If you weren't projecting, you'd have moved on to another post or another blog.; 9/22/15, 12:49 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: And for that matter, my wife never actually stated that she wouldn't try to kill me in my sleep. That was an implicit agreement.; 9/22/15, 12:50 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: At least, I thought it was. :>(; 9/22/15, 12:59 PM
Michael K said...: "If you weren't projecting, you'd have moved on to another post or another blog."

I read and post at several blogs. This one is mostly entertainment.; 9/22/15, 1:01 PM
Nichevo said...: I think we'll ask what we want to ask and do what we want to do. Don't you? Assuming you really do these things for yourself and not out of some twisted motivation, like Dan Savage has your soul in a jar on his desk.

We're interested in what makes you tick. We're interested, frankly, in what's wrong with you. We are watching to see how long you can keep it up. There is a sick fascination to watching your drama unfold, like a car wreck, though the problem is you want everybody to get wrecked too.

You don't recognize signals. High traffic/posting, no traffic/posting, praise, abuse, trenchant commentary, constructive criticism, nothing seems to reach you.

TL:DR: You like what is bad. Since this is so rare - it goes beyond bad taste - you're eye-catching. People eating dung is eye-catching.

Nobody hardly is talking to you anymore because you don't listen. Most of us are talking to - WITH - each other. Imagine a classroom like that.

I don't think people believe you can be real. It's like a put-on, this shtick of yours. Maybe we're hanging on to watch for the mask slipping, like with your splooge stooge breakdown, or when the libertarians made you cry (ah, I bet your tears taste like box wine).; 9/22/15, 1:03 PM
Big Mike said...: @Althouse, between this post and the previous one I have the unsettling feeling that you are carrying on (via your posts) a discussion you and Meade should be having in private.; 9/22/15, 1:06 PM
Beach Brutus said...: Re: Professor's "marriage for better or worse comment". That vow is where the couple pledge to stick together no matter what life throws their way. It is not a license for one spouse to abuse the other or the relationship itself.; 9/22/15, 1:06 PM
William said...: I'm pretty sure that this is not a problem I will ever have to face down. I do have a problem with trans fats, however. As I become older, I become increasingly obsessed with them. Is it just me or are there more bakeries and Dunkin Donuts than ever before? Sometimes the desire is so great that I get cramps just walking by them--if I can even walk by them. I fear it will not be long before I start transitioning to a fat guy.; 9/22/15, 1:09 PM
William said...: Which would leave a greater overhang in your kids' lives: suicide or a sex change operation?; 9/22/15, 1:13 PM
SeanF said...: Ann Althouse: You do not have to have sex with you spouse.

Inability or unwillingness to consummate the marriage has long been recognized as grounds for divorce/annulment, even when those things were difficult to get.

Maybe you, Ann Althouse, don't consider sex to be an integral part of marriage, but a lot of people do.; 9/22/15, 1:16 PM
lgv said...: ...why women do?"

maybe they feel it is the compassionate thing to do. Their happiness is subservient to their spouse. It could be guilt. Many women feel guilt when their husband suddenly announces he is gay, as if they failed in some way.

..or women will have a new shopping partner and someone to go to the restroom with, whereas men don't need male shopping partners. :); 9/22/15, 1:18 PM
Static Ping said...: Ann: If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened.

Well, that would depend on why you think marriage is permanent, does it not?

If the motivation is from a traditional religious perspective, then there is the matter that remaining in the marriage is intrinsically sinful. If the partner is forcing you to sin and is therefore endangering your soul, it is difficult to remain. How this plays out depends on the individual. A Catholic would get an annulment as obviously the other partner had zero interest in living up to the wedding vows. Others may try to tough it out in a sexless marriage in the hope that the partner will come around, or might simply separate without getting a divorce or remarrying. And if this was an Islamic country, or a more traditional Christian/Jewish country, then the partner would probably be put to death which solves the problem rather messily but effectively. As I'm said before, it is arguable that a marriage can be ended when one partner does something morally repugnant that would have resulted in execution is less enlightened times.

If the motivation is contractual, then the fact that the partner has changed sex has fundamentally violated the contract and therefore it is null and void.

If the motivation is a transitioned person is no longer the same person as before, then the transitioned partner is effectively dead and therefore the marriage is ended.; 9/22/15, 1:22 PM
n.n said...: gerry:

It's better to expose progressive dysfunction to public scrutiny than to foster its development in obscurity. Whether it is transgenderism or abortionism, the corruption of human nature and its consequences should be known. And, if it's a either a progressive condition or a violent behavior (e.g. elective abortion), treated before it becomes an epidemic that sabotages civil and human viability.; 9/22/15, 1:35 PM
SukieTawdry said...: How fortuitous for a gender studies professor to have a transgendered husband-wife. Everyday life as laboratory.

I've been wondering: Bruce Jenner is attracted to women. Does that make Catilyn a lesbian? Chaz Bono is attracted to women. Chastity Bono was a lesbian. Is Chaz straight?; 9/22/15, 1:40 PM
Peter said...: "If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened."

I've known plenty of people who don't much care for no-fault "because I don't love you anymore" divorce but I don't think I've ever met anyone who thought there were absolutely no deal-breakers.

Such as, repeated violence against yourself, or your children, for example. Perhaps there are some who believe even this is not a deal-breaker, but I've neer met one. And I'll bet you haven't either.

Which makes me suspect you're not offering this in good faith. Assuming there are at least some deal-breakers, the question becomes whether or not this rises to the same level as (for example) inability or unwillingness to deal with serious drug or alcohol abuse, infidelity, and of course violence.; 9/22/15, 1:45 PM
Unknown said...: "If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened.... After all, you married this person."

If marriage is between a man and a woman, and if one of the parties is not longer the same sex as when they were married (SSWM), then the marriage is dissolved as surely as death's parting.; 9/22/15, 1:47 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: Slightly OT:

Yesterday on NPR there was a segment about the inability of same-sex parents in some jurisdictions to get birth certificates for their children with both "parents'" names on them. Naturally, all the parents were lesbians. I asked my husband whether the gay male "parents" of a child would be able to get a birth certificate with no mother's name on it, and naturally he said no. So why is it different for lesbians? "Because, penis," he said. Oooookay.

IMO a BC has to comply with biological reality. For one thing, eventually the kid might want to look it up -- maybe out of curiosity, maybe to find out practical information, like what diseases he might be prone to.

The segment was full of the horrors such parents go through. Why, the non-biological mother hasn't even standing to take her kid to the doctor's office! She might actually have to adopt the child formally! Me, I'd thought adoption was always the way parents dealt with these situations. Until you adopt the child, you aren't its parent; you're just the spouse of its mother. It's so idiotic that it seems cruel even to spell it out.; 9/22/15, 1:50 PM
n.n said...: The question is: How should society and individuals respond to psychological disorders that are progressive, violent, dysfunctional, or disruptive?

Can they be tolerated/ignored; should they be normalized/promoted; or must they be rejected/treated?

It seems that abortion rites, class diversity schemes, and establishment of congruences, have set an extremely low threshold, that while controversially are selective and variable, establish a religious/moral/legal principle or precedent for a uniform response to a diverse spectrum of orientations and behaviors. That is to say, they provide no guidance at all, as they are all internally, externally, and mutually inconsistent.

I wonder how generation Z, ZZ, ZZZ, will reconcile these progressive paradoxes.; 9/22/15, 1:56 PM
n.n said...: Michelle Dulak Thomson:

Heather has a mommy, an absentee father, and a female guardian.

I wonder if the popularity of womb banks and sperm depositors followed with the sexual revolution that promoted reproductive dysfunction, and if it was done in conspiracy with the progress of transgenderism (e.g. homosexual behavior). So, the transgenders support the feminists' (female and male) pursuit of pleasure, leisure, wealth, and power, and in turn the feminists support the transgenders' pursuit of the same and normalization. This is the Democrat model for reconciliation avoidance (i.e. pro-choice doctrine).; 9/22/15, 2:05 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: Ann,

If you really believe marriage is permanent and for better or worse, maybe you should feel challenged to deal with what has happened.... After all, you married this person.

No, you didn't. You married Bruce, not Caitlyn (as it were). You didn't ask to be thrust into a lesbian marriage when you'd married a straight man in good faith. You didn't consent to the massive changes in character and physique that hormone treatments cause. You didn't consent to the rearrangement of your spouse's genitalia. You didn't consent to whatever inner turmoil brought the whole thing on.

I suppose that if your spouse were suddenly turned (by his own volition) into, say, an elephant seal, you'd stick to your vows?

I feel a bit strongly about this, as I've a relative who is a FTM transsexual. I've not seen Jeremy since he was April (these aren't real names), and he isn't old enough to be married. But the ease with which we accept this now does creep me out. In my own childhood days I was a "tomboy." I roved the woods, built rockets and paper and balsa aircraft, spent loads of time by myself, was on the Math Team, played Nomic and D&D. If I'd been born 30 years later, wouldn't have just been simpler to make me Michael rather than Michelle?; 9/22/15, 2:05 PM
Pookie Number 2 said...: I wonder how generation Z, ZZ, ZZZ, will reconcile these progressive paradoxes.

Probably by turning to religion, with all its advantages and flaws. We've had Chesterton's three generations by now, and the resultant society is pitiable.; 9/22/15, 2:08 PM
Jaq said...: So Althouse is saying that the *female* spouse should "cowgirl up" and move on, the same as any male spouse would.

Women just don't seem to be wired that way, but her argument would be that they aren't "wired" they are "socialized."; 9/22/15, 2:39 PM
CStanley said...: Women are more compliant and compassionate, sometimes to a fault, but the traits themselves are valuable.The problem with feminists is that they tried to pretend this difference doesn't exist.

Aside from that reasoning, isn't it also said that female sexuality is more "fluid"?; 9/22/15, 2:58 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "Aside from that reasoning, isn't it also said that female sexuality is more "fluid"?"

A Lasloic opening if ever I saw one.; 9/22/15, 3:16 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: The last time I saw one, a Lasloic opening looked something like this:

*; 9/22/15, 3:31 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/22/15, 3:32 PM
damikesc said...: I feel a bit strongly about this, as I've a relative who is a FTM transsexual. I've not seen Jeremy since he was April (these aren't real names), and he isn't old enough to be married. But the ease with which we accept this now does creep me out. In my own childhood days I was a "tomboy." I roved the woods, built rockets and paper and balsa aircraft, spent loads of time by myself, was on the Math Team, played Nomic and D&D. If I'd been born 30 years later, wouldn't have just been simpler to make me Michael rather than Michelle?

That's baffling to me. They've been fighting against gender stereotypes --- and now say that if a boy likes "girl" things, it must mean he's a girl or vice versa. Gender stereotypes are far more hard and controlling these days.; 9/22/15, 3:48 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: "Women just don't seem to be wired that way,"

Maybe some women. I bet the majority would be out the door.; 9/22/15, 3:52 PM
Kyzer SoSay said...: If a gay woman becomes a man, and a gay man becomes a woman, do they cancel each other out?

Jesus what a freak show country we live in.; 9/22/15, 3:59 PM
Kyzer SoSay said...: @ Nichevo, 1:03PM

You nailed it. Nailed it like the 99 Theses to a church door. I come here to interact with y'all, many times in discussion of the latest SJW lunacy being posted on the front page.; 9/22/15, 4:10 PM
Anthony said...: I probably wouldn't want to hang around with a mentally ill person, except to care for them.; 9/22/15, 4:13 PM
n.n said...: Pookie Number 2:

I doubt they would turn to religion. They will find comfort in a pro-choice cult that advises them to tolerate degradation, delegate judgment, and proselytize the paradoxes.

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried

That Chesterton? He was right.; 9/22/15, 4:48 PM
Fernandinande said...: Nichevo said...
We're interested, frankly, in what's wrong with you.

It's no coincidence that Google ngram for 'transgender' shot up right around the time Lobster Boy was murdered.; 9/22/15, 6:00 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: damikesc,

That's baffling to me. They've been fighting against gender stereotypes --- and now say that if a boy likes "girl" things, it must mean he's a girl or vice versa. Gender stereotypes are far more hard and controlling these days.

Yep. I think of Florence King -- the bossest, coldest bisexual Southern lady I've never met -- and can't even imagine what she's making of this. She had a phrase for Southern lesbians. They were "the doggy ladies." They came in twos, and always with dogs. No one affected to find anything amiss with them. They just were, like any number of other odd critters in the South. Then Northern lesbians arrived and politicized up the wazoo...; 9/22/15, 8:23 PM
Jupiter said...: I don't understand why a person who has decided to start living as a member of the opposite sex, would *want* their spouse to stay. If Bob thinks he is a woman, doesn't that mean he wants to have sex with men? Why would he want to stay married to a woman? And why would he expect a heterosexual woman to want to be married to him? He's basically saying that the whole thing was a big mistake, and he wants to call it off, right?

As to the women who "stay", well, maybe Bob thinks he is a lesbian? So, he wants to get his dick cut off, and start using his mouth instead. I can see how some women might not object to that. A woman who wants to be a man, might be somewhat more problematic. Now that she has that thing, where does she want to put it?; 9/22/15, 8:39 PM
Nichevo said...: Ferdy,

Wut?; 9/22/15, 8:50 PM
Jason said...: There's a passage in Ephesians that goes like this:

"The wife's body does not belong to her, but to her husband.
Likewise, the husband's body does not belong to himself, but to his wife."

To get a sex change during marriage is to do a violence not only to yourself, but also to your spouse. After all, you are now one flesh.

The damage these people advocating this are doing, in trying to normalize this violence, is horrific to those families it will affect.; 9/22/15, 9:58 PM
Nichevo said...: Althouse doesn't care. She'll be dead in 4 years of anosmia or nose cancer or ass cancer or whatever you get from mainlining cadmium pigments. Why should she leave anything standing in her wake? Her one son obvi won't be breeding and the other one, who knows what his deal is?

Years from now people will be asking themselves why they didn't kill people like her when they had the chance.; 9/22/15, 10:11 PM
cubanbob said...: Beach Brutus said...

Re: Professor's "marriage for better or worse comment". That vow is where the couple pledge to stick together no matter what life throws their way. It is not a license for one spouse to abuse the other or the relationship itself.
9/22/15, 1:06 PM

Hmm if you always knew that you were one gender trapped in the body of another gender then your marriage is predicated on a fraud on your spouse from the inception. In most religions if not all and indeed in most if not all legal systems a marriage entered into fraudulently isn't considered a valid marriage. Not sure where Althouse gets the notion to stick it to the end of one of the partners entered the marriage fraudulently.; 9/22/15, 11:15 PM
Todd said...: cubanbob said...
Beach Brutus said...

Re: Professor's "marriage for better or worse comment". That vow is where the couple pledge to stick together no matter what life throws their way. It is not a license for one spouse to abuse the other or the relationship itself.
9/22/15, 1:06 PM

Hmm if you always knew that you were one gender trapped in the body of another gender then your marriage is predicated on a fraud on your spouse from the inception. In most religions if not all and indeed in most if not all legal systems a marriage entered into fraudulently isn't considered a valid marriage. Not sure where Althouse gets the notion to stick it to the end of one of the partners entered the marriage fraudulently.

9/22/15, 11:15 PM

Well, I "suspect" Althouse's position on that would depend on which partner was "entitled" to half of other partner's stuff...; 9/23/15, 8:28 AM
RMc said...: If a gay woman becomes a man, and a gay man becomes a woman, do they cancel each other out?

I saw this on Real People back in the day.; 9/23/15, 8:28 AM
jr565 said...: Why would you expect a heterosexual male to still be into you if you suddenly think you are a male and try to have a penis fashioned out of your vagina.; I'd imagine a lot of hetorsexual female would not suddenly be attracted to you if you suddenly came out as male. And lesbians would similarly be unattracted to you because you look like a male.; 9/23/15, 1:38 PM
jr565 said...: I always cite Warren Beattys daughter when talking about transgendered. She iidentifies as a male, but never bothered having any surgery. And she is in gay relationship with another man.
Which is actually a heterosexual relationship. How many gay men date guys with vaginas? They can define themselves however they want, but in addition to confusing male/female, they are also confusing sexual orientation. Now gay means biological men dating women.
If you dated a trannie pre op with a penis, who looked female does that make you gay? Would it be different if you dated a transvestite male with a penis. or a drag queen with a penis?; 9/23/15, 1:42 PM
MaxedOutMama said...: Female to male transgenders are substantially rarer than male to female transgenders, so I don't think one can assume that women are more likely to stay in the relationship.

I think staying in the relationship would be rather rare for partners of either sex.

A lot is being built not on any genuine evidence, but on the guess of one therapist who is seeing more wives of transgenders than husbands, who even says that it might just be that men who stay don't seek therapy.; 9/23/15, 1:55 PM
Rich Rostrom said...: David Begley said: ...the CEO of biotech giant United Theraputics... switched and became a woman. She is the highest paid woman CEO in America.

She says. All the time. But UT isn't exactly a giant ($6.4B market cap), and she is actually paid less than the woman CEOs of DuPont ($43B), General Dynamics ($44B), General Motors ($47B), IBM ($141B), Hewlett-Packard ($46B), PepsiCo ($136B), Mondelez, Archer Daniels Midland ($26B), Lockheed Martin ($63B), T.J. Maxx ($48B), or Yahoo ($28B).; 9/23/15, 2:32 PM
Nichevo said...: Let's try this another way.

Althouse. You are a woman, right? For w me reason you go FTM. $50k or whatever for the "treatments." Now, assuming you ever heal, you have no vagina, questionable erogenous zones and tissues, and some kind of Frankenpenis.

Where were you thinking Meade comes in?

Do you want to penetrate Meade now? Does he want that? Does it substitute for what he, and you, were getting?

Does he still want to penetrate you? Where now? Mouth, ass? Are you going to jerk him off or tit-fuck him? Enough to sub for what PIV there was? Either in quantity or quality?

Should you and he go fucking around, instead? Maybe he can bang some nice coeds and get you involved in some moral turpitude deal that LOSES YOU YOUR TENURE! Maybe your son can hook you up with some nice boys. Maybe you can find a coed who wants to get pounded by a 65 year old trans lawprof. Maybe a good tale for icebreaking at future OWS rape parties.

Are you having orgasms during any of this?

Too ludicrous for words. If you're asexual, now, why bother being cut open to give you something you'll never use?

You'd be crazy as a shithouse rat.

You are crazy, or something, not to see this.

They should have a cure for transsexual people. It should be one easy to swallow pill, loaded with the quickest and most humane poison known. Everyone would be better off.; 9/23/15, 3:02 PM
Nichevo said...: Now, say Meade gets it lopped off and comes home, after paying however (you?), with something resembling a cunt.

And you are going to do for him what?

And he is going to do for you what?

Never get asked let alone answered because you would boot him instanter.; 9/23/15, 3:09 PM