Althouse: At the Freedom Café...

September 11, 2015

At the Freedom Café...

... feel free to talk about anything.

98 comments:

sparrow said...: I just saw this at Breitbart:

Office Depot has refused to print copies of a pro-life prayer on the grounds that to do so violates company policy of printing material that “advocates the persecution of people who support abortion rights.”

Wonder what our hostess & commenters might say; 9/11/15, 10:44 AM
Jaq said...: We have a woman who lives near here who runs a pizza shop. She makes sculptures out of wire. She says nobody ever taught her how to do it, she just started doing it and it "made sense." I just bought a little 3D wire sketch of a salmon for $10 that she did in a couple of minutes. She does it all freehand without sketches. She does the most incredible horses. I think the only reason she is not famous is because she is not a relentless self promoter. She doesn't even sign her work. Plus she says she can't stand the pressure of doing it for money. She has no real confidence in the value of what she does even though everybody encourages her. Anyway, it is an honor to know her.

Maybe I will send the sketch salmon to China, have them copy and mass produce it, and make some money!; 9/11/15, 10:56 AM
MadisonMan said...: Denning reportedly invited Goldstein to use the self-serve copy machines at the Office Depot store, but Goldstein said that would have been inconvenient to make 500 copies.

It takes 10 minutes to make 500 copies.

You must not believe in what you're copying if you can't spend 10 or so minutes.; 9/11/15, 11:00 AM
Bob Ellison said...: The scone is neither a biscuit nor a muffin. It has baked-good dysphoria, being neither properly sweet and cake-like nor properly savory and bread-like.

Rolls, Danish pastries, doughnuts, croissants, and the like have their places and are usually comfortable with them (though we've all occasionally encountered bagels that wanted to be doughnuts and doughnuts that think they're bagels, usually at places like Bob Evans restaurants).

But scones don't know their place and are uncomfortable on the bubble between the biscuit and muffin worlds.

Therapy can help. Liberal application of kosher salt can make a biscuit of a scone, much as heavy frosting can settle a scone plausibly firmly in the muffin world. Berries and nuts play at best suggestive roles here and should not be over-prescribed.

The scone shape dysphoria (triangular? does it now want to be a piece of pie?) is almost entirely a separate issue and should be treated separately (use a muffin tin, for goodness sake).; 9/11/15, 11:01 AM
Bobby said...: sparrow,

If I'd ever used Office Depot services, I'd stop and start going to Kinko's or- better yet- the mom and pop shop that I already use. And I'm not even pro-life.

I was disappointed to read their strategy is to take the matter to the Cook County Human Rights Commission and the Illinois Department of Human Rights and force Office Depot to do the printing -- being a genuine limited government and free market type guy, I'd have preferred to see them use consumer pressure to change Office Depot's decision. But I've long since realized that American conservatives and liberals alike prefer the heavy hand of government coercion to civil society, public pressure and consumer advocacy, they just switch sides depending on which issue it is.; 9/11/15, 11:06 AM
Gahrie said...: It takes 10 minutes to make 500 copies.

You must not believe in what you're copying if you can't spend 10 or so minutes.

It takes a couple of hours to bake a wedding cake.

You must not believe in your marriage if you can't spend a couple of hours.; 9/11/15, 11:19 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: It depends. If cake bakers have to make anything requested, so do copy shops. If cake bakers do not have to make anything requested, neither do copy shops.; 9/11/15, 11:20 AM
Bobby said...: Freeman,

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, too- liberals are hypocrites because they want bakers to make cakes but print shops don't have to print fliers; conservatives are hypocrites because they want print shops to make fliers, but bakers shouldn't have to make cakes. But the irony is that each side thinks they are the principled ones and only the other side are hypocrites. It would be funny, if so much of the American electorate weren't either liberal or conservative.; 9/11/15, 11:26 AM
MadisonMan said...: It takes a couple of hours to bake a wedding cake.

Skills are needed to bake a cake, as you well know. Makin' copies? Not so much.

People who complain that other people don't do things they want them to? These people have names: Whiners and complainers. They belong to no particular Party, and their complaints/whinges are reported preferentially.; 9/11/15, 11:27 AM
MadisonMan said...: Who among us when denied service would make a big stink?

I would just find somewhere else to spend my money.

Obvious Complaining Link.; 9/11/15, 11:30 AM
Fritz said...: Liberals shocked to discover laws apply to themselves:

http://popehat.com/2015/09/09/omg-broad-flexible-plaintiff-friendly-law-used-in-unanticipated-manner/; 9/11/15, 11:43 AM
Laura said...: Cool. Copy shop employees are now allowed to read material the customer is printing!

Bad move, Office Depot. The industry standard is simply to make the customer jump through hoops around copyright or sign documents absolving the printer of copyright violations.

Will the free publicity be worth it? Lots of campaign flyers are being developed to be printed in the upcoming season.; 9/11/15, 11:50 AM
Sydney said...: I tried to re-read two Oliver Sacks books - Awakenings and The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat. Curiously, though I enjoyed them the first time I read them about 25 or 30 years ago, I do not enjoy them now.

I could not stay with Awakenings at all. I think it is because it seems so dated to me now. I am not in anyway fascinated by the patient stories or the story of the use of L-dopamine in their treatment.

The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat confirmed what the critical disability activist said about Oliver Sacks - that he was the man who mistook his patients for a literary career. At one point the patient who mistook his wife for a hat asks Dr Sacks what's wrong with him. This is after the doctor has examined him in his office and even come to his home to look around. He tells him he doesn't know, but he should make music his entire life since he uses music to cope with some of his deficiencies. He says, "I never saw him again after that." I don't wonder. Even in the 1970's he could have made some attempt to make a diagnosis - stroke? brain tumor? A little guidance for the guy would have been good. Instead, he used him as a template for sundry philosophical riffs.

Funny how your perspective can change with time.; 9/11/15, 11:56 AM
Scott said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/11/15, 12:09 PM
Scott said...: IANAL but from what little I remember of the law relating to my craft, printers have the right to not print something, but a self-service copier is more like a public accommodation.

What really pisses me off is when well-funded special interests send their pawns into businesses to spaghetti-test their latest smelly social theories on the courts. The pawns experience little real injury when a print job or a cake commission is refused.; 9/11/15, 12:09 PM
Anonymous said...: That tower looks like a jihadist middle finger.; 9/11/15, 12:12 PM
Quaestor said...: A Drudge headline (is that the right term?) caught my eye: American adults get a D in science; 22% confuse astronomy and astrology. So I followed the link to the LA Times site, read the article, took the test. Pew's statistics page on the survey is worth a look, but you must take the test to see them. I recommend everyone take it.; 9/11/15, 12:13 PM
Hagar said...: Alinsky RULE #4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”; 9/11/15, 12:29 PM
Jaq said...: Webster's On Line dictionary does not include the sense of "fetus" for the word baby. So the phrase "I feel the baby kick" means, according to Webster's, that a baby walked up to you and kicked you.

There were actual comments on the definition that congratulated them on "not giving in to the pro-life people and defining baby to also mean fetus."

It's Newspeak. That prayer was crimethink.; 9/11/15, 12:38 PM
Hagar said...: If these jokers can't deal with Trump, how are they going to deal with Putin, Xi, not to mention miscellaneous rabid mullahs, ayatollahs, and prime ministers?

Maybe we will be better off with Trump, such as he is!; 9/11/15, 12:42 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "It takes 10 minutes to make 500 copies.

You must not believe in what you're copying if you can't spend 10 or so minutes"

As Freeman notes it's not about convenience. Nor is it about utilizing big government. It's insisting on a level playing field. Something liberals emphatically do not believe in.; 9/11/15, 12:42 PM
Virgil Hilts said...: Weird that what happened in Mecca happened on 9-11. There will be conspiracy theories.; 9/11/15, 1:00 PM
Bob Ellison said...: What about stapling and collating?; 9/11/15, 1:05 PM
Gahrie said...: What really pisses me off is when well-funded special interests send their pawns into businesses to spaghetti-test their latest smelly social theories on the courts

Yet for some reason, they only target Christians, and not Muslims......; 9/11/15, 1:09 PM
Be said...: Convinced a friend of mine who owns a "creative comfort food" restaurant to hire me for a couple shifts a week to learn how the business works, and to see if I might want to pursue a career change.

Initially he didn't want to take me on for a couple reasons: Money, and the fact that I'm a female. On the first one, he said that I was way overqualified for the work, and he would not be able to afford me. He was a bit surprised to hear that I was only looking for minimum wage, as, honestly don't have any experience in the business and would be needing a fair bit of hand holding in the beginning.

As for the woman thing, apparently, the worst problems he's had has been with females getting offended by something someone says, or complaining of 'inappropriate touching.' (It's a small kitchen, you can't help but touch someone when passing through!) My answer to that was that I've seen so much sh#t that there's next to nothing that can offend / bother me. Besides, I'm old enough to be a lot of the guys' mother.

***

Not quite a month later, am starting to get the hang of things. It's messy, very physical work, and sometimes pretty high pressure. By the end of a shift - usually about 6 - 7 hours long, my brain is fried. Since I'm working nights, my sleep schedule's off. Still, am having a great time. My friend likes to ask at the end of the night if I'm "still having fun," and my response has been "it's still beating the heck out of sitting in front of a monitor 45-50 hrs / week."; 9/11/15, 1:11 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: I have a love/hate relationship with the NY Times. I do respect its intelligent reporting, but I have a major problem with its liberal, editorial slant, which detracts from its reporting.

This recent article , though, made me quite happy. Here's the blurb:

It is not just Mrs. Clinton’s weakness in the polls that has generated talk of other alternatives, but also the strength of Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who is routinely drawing huge crowds at campaign events. That has been disconcerting to Democratic officials who believe that Mr. Sanders, a socialist, is so liberal that his presence at the top of the party’s ticket in 2016 would be disastrous.

I love the sticking of Sanders with the "socialist" tag. It's accurate. So, let's use it frequently.; 9/11/15, 1:20 PM
Scott said...: "Yet for some reason, they only target Christians, and not Muslims......"

Progressives have a secret admiration for militant Muslims. Of course they're not going to go after them. Like knows like. It is every progressive's wet dream to shoot a Republican in the head while somebody is videotaping it.; 9/11/15, 1:21 PM
Quaestor said...: Weird that what happened in Mecca happened on 9-11.

Allah be one pissed off mutha.; 9/11/15, 1:36 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Diversity is Our Strength file:

Study shows all male infantry units outperform teams with women; 9/11/15, 1:39 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I just saw this at Breitbart: Office Depot has refused to print copies of a pro-life prayer on the grounds that to do so violates company policy of printing material that “advocates the persecution of people who support abortion rights. Wonder what our hostess & commenters might say."

I don't trust Breitbart to present the facts accurately and I'm not reading the article, but my questions would be:

1. What's the text of the prayer? Does it advocate "persecution"? In what sense? Is it promoting violence, etc.?

2. What is Office Depot's policy? Is it neutral politically and as to religion or does OD want to run its business in a discriminatory way?

3. If the policy is neutral, how has it been applied? Has it been applied neutrally?

If I had that information, I'd try to figure out if OD was doing anything that is or should be illegal, but it's a private business, and it might be within the realm of expression that a business may choose to do. If it is, then it's in the marketplace and people are free to take their business elsewhere and to recommend that other people do so to. They're also free to go out of their way to patronize Office Depot. Me, I don't go to Office Depot, so there's nothing I'd do about that. It's similar to the old Chick-Fil-A question, isn't it?; 9/11/15, 1:41 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: MadisonMan said...It takes 10 minutes to make 500 copies.

You must not believe in what you're copying if you can't spend 10 or so minutes.

It takes 3 minutes to find the # of another cake shop...but examples must be made. Anyway every business is a public accommodation now, so we should all just get used to that.; 9/11/15, 1:42 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "'Denning reportedly invited Goldstein to use the self-serve copy machines at the Office Depot store, but Goldstein said that would have been inconvenient to make 500 copies.' It takes 10 minutes to make 500 copies. You must not believe in what you're copying if you can't spend 10 or so minutes."

But she has 15 minutes for her 15 minutes of fame.

In the future, everyone will be Kim Davis for 15 minutes.; 9/11/15, 1:42 PM
Hagar said...: I am not sure Bernie Sanders even knows what a socialist is.; 9/11/15, 1:44 PM
Ann Althouse said...: The analogy to the cake decorator is bad, because a copy shop just makes a copy of something someone else wrote, whereas expression and artistry is involved in the decorating of a wedding cake. It's an elaborate process.

I wish people would stop using the term "baker" to discuss the cake problem. It's not the baking that makes it special, it's the decorating. It's more like asking someone to paint a picture of something that is abhorrent to you.; 9/11/15, 1:45 PM
Hagar said...: Professor, in this case Goldstein would be the same sex couple.; 9/11/15, 1:46 PM
sunsong said...: James Taylor & Art Garfunckel - I'll do my crying in the rain; 9/11/15, 1:51 PM
Beach Brutus said...: re: The Cracker Emcee at 12:42 -- "As Freeman notes it's not about convenience. Nor is it about utilizing big government. It's insisting on a level playing field. Something liberals emphatically do not believe in."

The best level playing field is the one that existed before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, when any one could decide, choose, select, i.e. discriminate, for whatever reason suited them. In other words -- give freedom a chance. No one should be compelled to provide a service or do business with someone don't freely choose to. Whether their reasons are noble or ugly, if we truly believe in freedom, the government has no business telling someone who they must associate with.; 9/11/15, 1:53 PM
Wince said...: Did the mosque at Mecca just get hit by lightening on 9/11?

Killing 87+; 9/11/15, 1:55 PM
Hagar said...: I don't think the MSM has noticed yet - maybe their egos are too thick to even cnsider the possibility - but Trump is not just upsetting the GOP establishment; he is consistently throwing them his finger as well.
They keep reporting on him and his campaign the same way and with the same vocabulary they are using for all the others - his "plans," and he "must" to this that or the other by such and such a date, etc., etc.
But Trump has not submitted any "plans." When he says he is going to do something, he says he is going to do the opposite when responding to the next question. They say he has to campaign in New Hampshire, he goes to Nevada. And so on, but they do not seem to catch on to it that he is playing them like a marimba.

It's kind of fun to watch, really.; 9/11/15, 1:57 PM
Wince said...: Rainbow Appears Over World Trade Center on Eve of 9/11

Photos showing a rainbow appearing to originate from the World Trade Center on the eve of Sept. 11 are quickly being shared online as they elicit emotional responses from admirers.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/World-Trade-Center-Rainbow-Photo-Eve-of-September-11-Ben-Sturner-326532051.html; 9/11/15, 2:03 PM
Interesting,not crazy said...: Ya know what would be fun? Trump vs Hillary. Trump ads with vids of Hillary claiming she dodged machine gun fire.Named after Sir Edmund Hillary Chelsea was close to 911. Cackling laughter"We came, we saw, he died". Emotional determination to get the guy who made the vid that caused Benghazi, contrasted with the truth. "What diff, at this point....". Kinda like a greatest clips wrap up when Carson/ Leno/ Letterman / et al retired.; 9/11/15, 2:05 PM
garage mahal said...: "It is every progressive's wet dream to shoot a Republican in the head while somebody is videotaping it."

You're such a drama queen.; 9/11/15, 2:05 PM
Hagar said...: I don't think Hillary! is going to be the Democrat nominee. Obama is slowly killing her campaign by releasing another "leak" very week or two and will finally drop an anvil on her head if she still refuses to give up when the time has come to introduce his preferred successor to us.; 9/11/15, 2:12 PM
PB said...: We should have rebuild the two towers. Taller.

One isn't enough.; 9/11/15, 2:13 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Professor, in this case Goldstein would be the same sex couple."

I know, but the cake problem was raised and I'm addressing it. I'm well aware that on one side is a commercial business and on the other side are customers. I think the cake business is different from the copying business because of the expression that's required from the decorator.; 9/11/15, 2:15 PM
CStanley said...: Well aside from 15 minutes of fame, the prayer got distributed to a much wider audience so there's that.; 9/11/15, 2:58 PM
MadisonMan said...: I think the cake business is different from the copying business because of the expression that's required from the decorator.

Perhaps. I don't know the reality of the actual cake baker who was/cake bakers who have been sued.

I suspect there's not much creativity involved in the decorating of the cakes in most cases.; 9/11/15, 3:05 PM
Scott said...: "I suspect there's not much creativity involved in the decorating of the cakes in most cases."

You should try it.; 9/11/15, 3:11 PM
Interesting,not crazy said...: MadisonMan said... [hush][hide comment]

"......

I suspect there's not much creativity involved in the decorating of the cakes in most cases.

No skill required, either. Or special tools. Or talent. Or experience. Yeah, pretty much the same as copying a document. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! In most cases! Hahahahahahha!

There are those who might say you have no sense of humor. They would be wrong.
Fuckin' Great, thank you!!; 9/11/15, 3:13 PM
Jaq said...: They hate Trump because he doesn't have Stockholm syndrome vis a vis the press. Their repeated beatings just make him stronger.; 9/11/15, 3:33 PM
richard mcenroe said...: "Office Depot has refused to print copies of a pro-life prayer on the grounds that to do so violates company policy of printing material that “advocates the persecution of people who support abortion rights.”

Wonder what our hostess & commenters might say"

Well, I'd say there's always Office Max, Staples and FedExStores (Neé Kinkos)...; 9/11/15, 4:06 PM
richard mcenroe said...: I would happily agree to bake the cake.

Um, you folks HAVE seen "The Help," right?; 9/11/15, 4:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Virgil Hilts said...

Weird that what happened in Mecca happened on 9-11. There will be conspiracy theories.

Allah is not pleased that America remains standing. Or
Allah is not pleased that jihadists are wreaking havoc on the world. Or
Allah is at his death throttle...

Take your pick.; 9/11/15, 4:15 PM
Hagar said...: That is a bad thing to wish for.
Like Christianity, Islam is based on Judaism, and it is all the same God; just different names in different languages.; 9/11/15, 4:56 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said...It's not the baking that makes it special, it's the decorating. It's more like asking someone to paint a picture of something that is abhorrent to you.

Right, but that strengthens the assertion that the Office Depot situation is more likely to be improper discrimination, doesn't it? In the decorator case the argument is that the decorator should be allowed to choose not to provide a specific service because that service involved their own expression (creativity, etc) and they shouldn't be forced to have their personal expression used in a way they don't want. In the Office Depot case the service (presumably) doesn't involve any expression on the part of the OD worker, it's just a generic service.

Now maybe people with certain religious or political beliefs aren't part of a protected class as people of given sexual orientations and thus a public business's ability to permissibly discriminate against them differs, or more likely the company would point to an escape clause policy giving itself permission to deny service for any reason (which would prevail absent some proof of concerted, large-scale discriminatory behavior).

While I agree the cake decorator and OD cases aren't very similar it sure seems like the difference makes OD less likely to be able to defend against charges of impermissible discrimination.; 9/11/15, 4:59 PM
Bob Ellison said...: elkh1, you mean "death rattle".; 9/11/15, 5:15 PM
Jaq said...: HD, you are completely confused. In the one case the artist was the traditional religious person, and in the other case, it was the customer...

So it would be contradictory if the cases shouldn't have completely opposite outcomes.

You are missing the point completely and arguing about angels dancing on the heads of a pin type of stuff.; 9/11/15, 5:16 PM
Jaq said...: The legal principle involved is called, in the Latin: "Rubbus Nosesus Conservatorum en Powerus Liberalus"; 9/11/15, 5:18 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: Perry is out. We need 5 or more to get out immediately. Thin the field, consolidate power, I say.; 9/11/15, 5:25 PM
rehajm said...: "It is every progressive's wet dream to shoot a Republican in the head while somebody is videotaping it."

Lefties hate guns, but love shooting them.; 9/11/15, 6:43 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "Lefties hate guns, but love shooting them."

Word! When I take a liberal acquaintance or family member shooting I always bring a Glock and an AR with 30-rd. magazines. They love that stuff, and no doubt experience frissons of daring relating their evil black bullet hose experiences to their liberal buds. I aim to please.; 9/11/15, 7:10 PM
Saint Croix said...: Pavlov is sitting in a bar, drinking a beer.

The phone rings. He jumps up. "Oh shit, I forgot to feed the dog!"; 9/11/15, 7:12 PM
Rusty said...: You're such a drama queen.

Said the guy in the dress.; 9/11/15, 8:13 PM
Original Mike said...: "CARNAGE IN MECCA: AT LEAST 101 PEOPLE KILLED AFTER BIN LADEN FIRM CRANE COLLAPSES ON GRAND MOSQUE DURING FREAK LIGHTNING STORM: “Pictures taken before the disaster show the crane being struck by a bolt of lightning ..."

God's finally getting around to expressing his disapproval.; 9/11/15, 9:05 PM
David said...: 14 years. Wow.; 9/11/15, 9:20 PM
MPH said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/11/15, 9:48 PM
MPH said...: It may understandably not be your thing, but the next time you are in NYC, I'd love to participate in or host an Althouse appreciation happy hour (or something of the sort). It would be fun to meet and thank you and meet other people who understand and appreciate your blog.; 9/11/15, 11:39 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Somebody at the corner pointed out Trump almost never uses the words Freedom nor Liberty.

Not in his vocabulary.; 9/12/15, 12:38 AM
Interesting,not crazy said...: Lem said... [hush][hide comment]

Somebody at the corner pointed out Trump almost never uses the words Freedom nor Liberty.

Not in his vocabulary.

If he ALMOST NEVER uses the words, he does occasionally use the words. If he occasionally uses the words, they are in his vocabulary.; 9/12/15, 1:03 AM
Terry said...: Hagar wrote:
"Like Christianity, Islam is based on Judaism, and it is all the same God; just different names in different languages."
Since Hagar is an expert on religion, I wonder if he can tell us if an understanding of Allah can be gained using reason?; 9/12/15, 2:10 AM
Hagar said...: No need to be an expert, Terry. Islam recognizes the prophets of the Old Testament and also Christ, but claims that Mohammed is the last and greatest of them all. It is all there in the Koran, which is God's final word to mankind until the Day of Judgment.; 9/12/15, 6:47 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: Christian and Islamic theology are tremendously different. The religions share some story elements, but not the same god.; 9/12/15, 8:04 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Me me me Trump is getting trolled big time.; 9/12/15, 8:24 AM
Hagar said...: How on earth do you share the same story elements, but not have the same God?

Mohammed said Moses, Christ, and the other prophets were great prophets, but they either did not get it quite right, or their message had been corrupted by those dastardly Jews, which is why Mohammed now had been sent to teach the True Faith and set everything right.; 9/12/15, 8:39 AM
Hagar said...: I still hate my new washing machine. I call it "Gina."; 9/12/15, 8:59 AM
Scott said...: @MPH: I tried to email you at what I thought would be your Yahoo address, but it bounced. I work in Midtown, and would definitely attend if you set up a meetup.com event for this.; 9/12/15, 9:14 AM
Gahrie said...: The Jews came first, and called their God Yahweh, then a group of Jewish heretics founded Christianity, and called him Jehovah. Then an Arab trader founded Islam, which he claimed was the perfection of Judaism and Christianity and called that God Allah.; 9/12/15, 9:18 AM
Paddy O said...: "How on earth do you share the same story elements..."

Jim was born in a small town in Iowa. Parents were Ed and Mabel, has two sisters. His best friend was Jimmy. Likes Golden Retrievers ever since his childhood dog saved him from drowning. Family lost their farm due to some unsavory but not quite illegal actions by the local bank. He worked his way through college, then law school, worked as a law clerk, then became a judge, rising to the Supreme Court.

or

Jim was born in a small town in Iowa. Parents were Ed and Mabel, has two sisters. His best friend was Jimmy. Likes Golden Retrievers ever since his childhood dog saved him from drowning. Family lost their farm due to some unsavory but not quite illegal actions by the local bank. He worked his way through college, then law school, decided he hated the legal system and organized a militia which sought the overthrow of the government.

Same initial story elements, different Jims.; 9/12/15, 9:26 AM
Hagar said...: No. All the same God; just different prophets claiming special gifts to divine the will of God and authority to speak for God - kind of like Supreme Court justices peering into the 14th Amendment and seeing the most marvelous things in there.; 9/12/15, 10:32 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: No, almost totally different conceptions of God.; 9/12/15, 10:35 AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: Hagar,

Other than the use of the letters g,o, and d, you're not even close on this one. Allah and the Triune God have little in common.; 9/12/15, 10:59 AM
Hagar said...: Our conceptions of God is a different matter. There are almost as many of those as there are believers.

But Mohammed quite specifically based his conception on the God of the Old Testament.

Though Christian creeds also claim to be based on the Old Testament God, Jews will tell you that any ideas about a "Trinity" is greatly mistaken. And the Old Testament is theirs.; 9/12/15, 11:10 AM
Paddy O said...: Tash is Aslan and Aslan is Tash?

On the other hand, Yale theologian Miroslav Volf made a good claim for Hagar's point.

It's a good argument, but at what point do similar starting points and general claims diverge into different subjects? Christians say Jesus is God. There's no room for that in either Judaism or Islam. So, there's a fundamental identity issue. Did this God choose Isaac or Ishmael? That's a huge distinction in action and subsequent history that reflects in a very different pattern of salvation, life, worship. At a certain point, it seems there's different content behind the title "God."; 9/12/15, 1:12 PM
Hagar said...: But it is content that people put there.
If there is a God, then God is what God is regardless of what anyone here on earth says.; 9/12/15, 2:05 PM
Hagar said...: And if we do not know any more than what we do know, it is great foolishness to go killing each other over what really are merely our personal opinions.; 9/12/15, 2:07 PM
Rusty said...: It seems thre Iranians have discovered thay have an unexpextedly large reseve of uranium oxide.
Coupled with the Islamic invasion of europe this just might be problematical.

Now who was it that assured us all that we were just plain silly to concern ourselve with things like this.
Hmmm.; 9/12/15, 2:29 PM
Paddy O said...: "it is great foolishness to go killing each other over what really are merely our personal opinions."

Indeed, but that's different than saying everyone's opinions are really the same thing.; 9/12/15, 3:04 PM
MPH said...: @scott - mhussey gmail; 9/12/15, 4:00 PM
Hagar said...: Paddy,

What is so difficult to understand about that Mohammed said the Jew's God was his God?; 9/12/15, 5:27 PM
Scott said...: @MPH: Thanks, I just sent you an email.; 9/12/15, 5:50 PM
Paddy O said...: "What is so difficult to understand about that Mohammed said the Jew's God was his God?"

What's so difficult to understand that the Jews disagreed with this? And to see Mohammed co-opted and changed the narrative. I get that people say there's a similar title going on, but the key is that the title is being attached to very different sorts of characters.

If I started saying that Hagar is a neighbor of mine and has promised me $5000 a month for the rest of my life, you'd say I must be talking about a different Hagar, or that I'm simply wrong about who you are.; 9/12/15, 6:41 PM
Hagar said...: No, I would just say you must be a nut case, and I would not argue about that description for Mohammed either.
Which does not change the fact that 1.6 billion people believe that it is the God of the Jews that they worship as that God revealed himself to Mohammed and ordered him to tell them to do.; 9/12/15, 7:01 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "Though Christian creeds also claim to be based on the Old Testament God, Jews will tell you that any ideas about a "Trinity" is greatly mistaken. And the Old Testament is theirs."

But the God of the New Testament isn't. And the New throws new light on the nature of the God of the Old Testament. And Jews and Muzzies ain't got no time for that.; 9/12/15, 7:19 PM
Hagar said...: The Old and New Testaments are still printed as one volume, and the God of Moses is still very much there. And he is not a forgiving sort of God.; 9/12/15, 7:46 PM
Be said...: It's sad to see the Pussification of the self-proclaimed Warrior Class.

- get the soft copy back

- buy two reams of paper

- print things out

- continue as you were doing.

(Shrug.); 9/12/15, 8:12 PM
Static Ping said...: Gahrie: The Jews came first, and called their God Yahweh, then a group of Jewish heretics founded Christianity, and called him Jehovah. Then an Arab trader founded Islam, which he claimed was the perfection of Judaism and Christianity and called that God Allah.

Not quite. The word "Jehovah" did not come into use until the 13th century and it does not replace "Yahweh" as much as complement it. "Allah" simply means "God" in Arabic. Christian Arabs also use "Allah" and did so before Islam's founding.; 9/12/15, 10:31 PM
SukieTawdry said...: Great shot, Ann!; 9/13/15, 7:43 PM
Paddy O said...: Likely this is too old for anyone to still be reading it, but maybe the benefits of moderation may get it some notice.

I hunted down this thread because of what is happening at Wheaton College, where a poli-sci professor has been given mandatory leave for the rest of the school year, for saying that Christianity and Islam worship the same God.

Hagar would be happy to know that I'm basically arguing his side of the discussion in my various online responses (I'm a Wheaton alum). I haven't as much changed my mind as see how both arguments can be made depending on what we're defining as "same". It's an interesting conversation.; 12/18/15, 12:41 PM