"He says, 'O.K., what are we gonna do with this one? Make him a smart kid, very determined[']… and then, when he’s just finishing, he says, 'Let’s wait a second.' God looks down and chuckles a little bit and says, 'Hey, let’s give him the soul of a female.'"
Bruce Jenner, quoted in a New Yorker piece titled "Bruce Jenner and the Modern American Family."
We're being invited — through a new door — back into an old subject: Whether there is such a thing as a "the soul of a female." Or... actually, those are 2 old subjects: 1. Whether essentialist ideas about the feminine are true/false and useful/damaging, and 2. Whether we have some core being that might be called a "soul."
I don't even know what Bruce Jenner really thinks. I read his quote as a sort of myth he made up about himself, and he's only letting us know that it's something he uses in his presentation to others. I can't tell whether it's something he's found helpful in understanding himself, and I certainly don't believe that he literally believes that God creates us like that.
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and God said "We'll spin off a reality show that should get decent ratings for a season or two."
Cavell on "having a soul" being the grammatical consequence of "having a body":
It may be that the sense of falsification comes from the way I understand the phrase ``have a body.'' It is really a mythological way of saying that I am flesh. But I am not satisfied with this myth, for it implies that I also have something other than a body, call it a soul. Now I have three things to put together: a body, a soul, and me. (So there are four things to be placed: I plus those three.) But I no more have a soul than I have a body. That is what I say here and now. People who say they have a soul sometimes militantly take its possession as a point of pride, for instance William Ernest Henley and G.B.Shaw. Take the phrase ``have a soul'' as a mythological way of saying that I am spirit. If the body individuates flesh and spirit, singles me out, what does the soul do? It binds me to others.
More like "the f-ed up freak show of a family".
Jenner's brain is wired female, is all you have to say.
He killed someone and we don't hear about it anymore. The show must go on.
tk;dr
(where k=Kardashian)
Once you start to believe things without there needing to be any evidence for them, all things are possible, and the drawing of lines becomes ludicrous.
So, there's that.
I read his quote as a sort of myth he made up about himself, and he's only letting us know that it's something he uses in his presentation to others.
How well stated. Thank you Professor; I enjoyed that. I'm going to use "something he uses in his presentation to others" in the future.
AA: and I certainly don't believe that he literally believes that God creates us like that.
It makes more godly sense than creating people through random mutations and killing the mistakes.
Fernandinande said...
It makes more godly sense than creating people through random mutations and killing the mistakes.
And yet, that is exactly how things actually work (minus the anthropomorphism). Amazing, isn't it?
Cavell's assertions in the quoted paragraph: specious nonsense.
Re "I no more have a soul than I have a body": How does he know this? How does he know whether this is true or untrue? It is a statement of belief, nothing more. Just as I believe we do have souls, all of us. I'm am not militant about it but I don't believe this is a "mythological" way of saying that "I am spirit".
Bruce Jenner wants to be called a woman, but what he is, is a transexual. He isn't sure he wants the surgery. His next step is another reality show. Ratings!
He should donate his brain to science.
The first time God heard Bruce tell that story he rolled his eyes and said, "Oh for Christ's sake."
I think Cavell means that you don't POSSESS a Body and a soul. You don't have them. You don't own them. YOU ARE THEM.
As for the idea of having a female soul--- if female souls differ from male souls, then women differ from men at some basic level.
Which means that women should be treated differently than men. Perhaps female souls aren't as rational as male souls. Perhaps they don't deserve to earn as much in intellectually rigourous fields, right?
I think this is why transsexuals irritate so many serious feminists. They take this idea of femaleness that is a caricature of what it means to be a woman, and then declare that living in this way is what makes someone truly female.
Meanwhile, actual females are a lot more varied and complicated than the transsexual caricature of a female.
So, from a person with XX chromosomes perspective, a transsexual is often no more than someone engaged in elaborate and long-lasting cos-play. They're putting on a role, and it's not even a REAL role with any depth.
It would be like if that Science Fiction fan over there decided to live as Chewbacca for now on. Putting on a furry suit and growling a lot wouldn't actually give you access to the internal life and states of a wookie. You'd just be a man who wanted to dress up as a wookie and who imagined that dressing as a wookie was enough to MAKE you a wookie.
Deirdre Mundy said: "I think Cavell means that you don't POSSESS a Body and a soul. You don't have them. You don't own them. YOU ARE THEM."
Good point.
But when people say they "possess" a body and soul what they mean is that they "are" the body and soul. They're just not expressing this belief with the painfully exquisite precision that Cavell so arrogantly brings to bear. Which is to say, they're expressing themselves idiomatically. Cavell is quibbling, and showing off.
Maybe Jenner is more of a literate fellow than he is given credit for, and he is referring back to the 19th C idea of gay men as being female souls trapped in male bodies, urnings.
I think this is why transsexuals irritate so many serious feminists. They take this idea of femaleness that is a caricature of what it means to be a woman
Heh. You've just explained why men find queers to be so revolting.
But feminists will learn to love the transsexual. They will cheer it. And participate in their weddings. Or we will ruin their livelihoods and drive them from the public square.
Good. Goose. Gander.
"and I certainly don't believe that he literally believes that God creates us like that"
Not sure what "literally" means here. Do you allow that he may believe it narratively or hermeneutically or figuratively or self-servingly?
I certainly don't believe that you literally believe that other people believe things just the way you do.
Its all about the money.
Since I have never seen the Kardashian show, I could be way off base, but I'll ask anyway.
Was Bruce no longer appearing on the show in any substantive role? Was he no longer receiving payment, or has the payment decreased?
Wait, isn't Bruce's biggest problem that he's an out and proud conservative?
@EMD,
Wait, isn't Bruce's biggest problem that he's an out and proud conservative?
Just imagine the howling if Jenner had said "The kind of woman I want to be was best exemplified by Ayn Rand"!
Dierdre:
But if there weren't any fundamental mental or spiritual differences between people and wookiies, then why wouldn't the costume esentially make you a wookiie? That's the feminists' problem here; they deny any deep serious differences between men and women. If there's no difference internally, don't the clothes make the man, or woman?
@Deirdre Mundy,
Putting on a furry suit and growling a lot wouldn't actually give you access to the internal life and states of a wookie. You'd just be a man who wanted to dress up as a wookie and who imagined that dressing as a wookie was enough to MAKE you a wookie.
Well, thank you for really ruining my day, young lady! Sheesh, talk about your judgmental!
(How 'bout Jar-Jar Binks? Is it easier to be Jar-Jar?)
To the extent he has had these "feelings" for however long, his association with the made up/created/contrived drama of his reality show family renders me suspicious to start and uncaring in total. Make the change Bruce, live happy, go away.
Madison Man we are in complete agreement. My (mercifully) fleeting glimpses into Kardashistan is a mixture of disdainful laughter and revulsion. I don't frequent carnival side shows that feature human oddities. Why would I spend my limited television viewing time on such?
After viewing the entire interview with my wife, who didn't want to watch it alone, I sat down Saturday and wrote a long post to your "expected to be highest rated" post. That post was swallowed by the ether between the iPad and Althouse but the gist of it follows.
I work from home a lot and have come to see present-day Bruce as a cartoon character on the Kardashan empire of "reality" shows, because that is how the producers and editors have portrayed him. Now, this impression of cartoon Bruce has come to me in tiny doses gleaned as I pass through the den or overhear while writing nearby, but for the most part it's accurate. Bruce occasionally is shown being the compassionate and steady father figure, or organizer of athletic and "team-building" exercises for the Dash crews, but the preponderance of his appearances are a few seconds of him being the object of a joke or shaking his head as the girls scheme up some dubious plan.
Being someone who grew up in the seventies my formative impression of Bruce was the wonderful 1976 Olympics. So expected the Sawyer Special to help me fill in the gaps between the American Hero and the Kardashian Goat phases. It did not disappoint and I learned a lot about Jenner that really informed my view of transgender and cross-dressing people.
Most startling to me was his revelation about his childhood and how he used participation in the super-manly decathlon to compensate for his confused inner feelings. As he is getting a gold medal hung on his neck, he pointed out to Ms. Sawyer and we the viewer could see, there is the look of fear in his eyes and face. Like a graduate who cries at the loss of the school experience while celebrating their achievement, Jenner was acutely aware -- and it is obvious in his tortured visage for a few seconds -- that having achieved the specific performance goal he set for himself he has no idea what will come next and he is afraid to face the future.
That touched me.
For the first time I actually understood, when Bruce said it, that sexual orientation and gender have nothing to do with each other. He has always been attracted to women and still is. And he has always felt like a woman at least in part. That was interesting to me. Foreign to my experience, but something I came to understand watching the interview, which Ms. Sawyer did a fine job conducting and enhancing with family and friends chiming in (but noticeably not including Kardashians).
I recommend watching the special if you have any interest. Perhaps, as Bruce says, it is his destiny to reach people who need to hear his message or want to. I didn't even want to see the special, yet I learned something new and it informed how I see people different from me.
Jenner is not a joke. He's not a cartoon. He's a person who has been very confused and confounded by his feelings and pretty much kept his faith and dignity intact while dealing with it. Not explicitly stated but implied in the program was the desire he had to NOT be on the Kardashian crazy train as that show became more popular and their lives became ever more crazy. But then he might have a new "reality" show of his own, so I'm not exactly confident I read that part correctly.
As an atheist, I don't believe in an Independent And Immortal Soul.
But the term is a useful enough metaphor for "the enduring self, especially the non-conscious part" that I don't much care about people using it, so long as they avoid the metaphysical bits.
And while he is using a God metaphor, it's not the relevant part.
@Deirdre Mundy,
Putting on a furry suit and growling a lot wouldn't actually give you access to the internal life and states of a wookie. You'd just be a man who wanted to dress up as a wookie and who imagined that dressing as a wookie was enough to MAKE you a wookie."
The analogy works even better when putting on combat infantryman's uniform. Or a fireman's. There are plenty more examples if you wish to find them.
Mike said everything I thought while watching the interview. It was moving.
His story about "little Bruce," was just a way of explaining that he has been given so much, but everyone has things they need to overcome. No one is perfect.
For those who think his transition is about money, watch the interview and see how he is harassed and ridiculed by paparazzi and comedy shows. He talked about suicide.
I wish him the best.
Some comedian used to do a bit where he'd pretend he was God amusing Himself by creating animals like the platypus.
Okay, now get this. It's warm-blooded, like a mammal . . . BUT IT HAS A BILL LIKE A DUCK AND IT LAYS EGGS!!!!
I don't recall it being especially funny.
Can we even have agreement that we have souls? Then how do we have male or female souls?
If Bruce had a sex change in his 20's before he went to the Olympics would feminists be ok if he won all his events as a woman?
The elephant in the room of course is that you can't actually change sex. Your chromosomes are the same until you die. If he was caught in a fire and all that was left was his charred remains, they'd look at his DIN and say "male chromosomes". Because all he had done was plastic surgery.
The other elephant in the room is the degree to which doctors are screwing with peoples health to make them appear like women. When WOMEN took estrogen there was a potential for cancer.guys with low t usually have high estrogen because it converts to estrogen in their bodies. ANd that's why you get guys who are in the dumps with man boobs who are moody and depressed.
It may be why he looks like he's crying in the interview. Because he's jacked up on female hormones
That's dangerous for women AND men. ANd it doesn't seem like the docs really know what theyre' doing.
If he does go through with it, hes probably going to lose sex drive, and if he ever has a second thought, hes going to have mangled genitals.
Shouldn't we be telling people suffering from dysphoria that its ok that their body is male? That would be a gender classification. .
Sigivald:
Perhaps an independent and immortal coherent mass of energy that persists past the degradation and dissipation of our corporal body. This would be the source of our consciousness expressed through our biological system, notably the brain. It wasn't long ago that we perceived and classified electromagnetic energy as a media for signal propagation.
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