Althouse: "Many of my straight friends, even the most liberal, see this logic as warped."

February 20, 2015

"Many of my straight friends, even the most liberal, see this logic as warped."

"It’s one thing for them to admit that they would prefer their kids to be straight, something they’ll only begrudgingly confess. But wanting my daughter to be a lesbian? I might as well say I want her to grow up to be lactose intolerant."

70 comments:

Unknown said...: Choices:

1. Gay is something you can't help, in which case wanting someone to be orientated is dumb

2. Gay is a choice, in which case she should not be around kids given that she wants to impress her choice on them; 2/20/15, 4:57 PM
Michael said...: Excellent. Now it is a choice!!; 2/20/15, 4:57 PM
Michael K said...: I knew she was a nut.; 2/20/15, 5:03 PM
Meade said...: "Time will tell, but so far, it doesn’t look like my 6-year-old daughter is gay. In fact, she’s boy crazy."

Boy crazy seems like an oppressive label. Especially to stick on a 6 year-old.; 2/20/15, 5:10 PM
Revenant said...: "Want" in one hand and shit in the other, see which fills up first.; 2/20/15, 5:12 PM
damikesc said...: ...simple biology wants one's genetic code to continue on and multiply. Hoping that it doesn't happen for you is really, really fucking weird.

I wonder if the writer realizes that she is proving some of the concerns about gays "indoctrinating" kids to be true....; 2/20/15, 5:13 PM
buwaya said...: Gay is a reproductive handicap, though not, in some cases, such as this one, a complete bar. Still the odds of reproducing are massively reduced.
So, a bit like a mom with a hearing aid wishing her kid to be hard of hearing.; 2/20/15, 5:14 PM
Meade said...: "Tags: heteronormativity, homosexuality"

homonormativity; 2/20/15, 5:16 PM
MadisonMan said...: She sounds like someone who is trying to live life through a child.

I pity the child if that's the case. That's a tremendous burden for a child to bear.; 2/20/15, 5:20 PM
William said...: I wonder if dyslexic parents want their children to have dyslexia.; 2/20/15, 5:24 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Gay is a reproductive handicap, though not, in some cases, such as this one, a complete bar."

Not for a female. It's the opposite of a handicap. You won't get pregnant by accident, and you can get pregnant when you want to (assuming you are fertile). You can even select sperm based on the qualities you want in the next generation and are not limited to the sperm of the person you happen to have found to have sex with you.; 2/20/15, 5:25 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I wonder if dyslexic parents want their children to have dyslexia."

There are cases of deaf parents wanting deaf children, I believe.; 2/20/15, 5:26 PM
buwaya said...: As I understand it the fertility rate of lesbians is extremely low. This woman is an exception.
Handicaps aren't only physical.; 2/20/15, 5:34 PM
Ann Althouse said...: If you're thinking of the next generation, your grandchildren, you might be better off with a lesbian daughter. Compare the chances that she will bond with another woman and form a steady family with children who are well cared for with the chances that a heterosexual daughter will end up with with a good marriage to a man that produces children and that stays together to raise those grandchildren of yours well.; 2/20/15, 5:36 PM
buwaya said...: Yes there some deaf activists who want some very odd things.
I knew a fellow, classmate in my old MBA program, who was a deaf gay activist. Later he was on a tear about how surgery to cure deafness in babies was "genocide".; 2/20/15, 5:37 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "As I understand it the fertility rate of lesbians is extremely low."

Sources?; 2/20/15, 5:37 PM
traditionalguy said...: War on grandchildren! We will need to ask the Pope to settle this one.; 2/20/15, 5:37 PM
Kyzer SoSay said...: I'm straight and proud of it. And I want my child to grow up and be straight and proud of it.

If I were to publish that as an op-ed, the Gay Mafia would burn down my house, or hound my employer to fire me, or bully me on social media, or at the very least send me many nasty notes. OR at least they would if I were a semi-public figure as this author is.

But regardless, I want my kids to be straight. Don't you? Doesn't everyone?

What if the gay gene and HIV/AIDS evolved together? Population becomes too large, too concentrated, too "something", and suddenly a bunch of people are born who upon reaching sexual maturity, do not intend to engage in gene-passing, offspring producing coitus. And they might seduce others with the hint of perversion for a one-nighter or a fling, and eventually some of them end up with an incurable disease that kills them (obviously, pre-modern medicine). What if homosexuality and AIDS are natural population control? Who's to say they aren't?; 2/20/15, 5:40 PM
buwaya said...: I am an engineer and hence live by empiricism.
Life is playing the odds, betting according to how the dice are likely to come up. Grandchildren by way of lesbian daughters is way worse odds than the usual way.; 2/20/15, 5:40 PM
Meade said...: What you want to bet, if she could, she'd have vaccinated her baby girl against "boy craziness".; 2/20/15, 5:41 PM
Revenant said...: simple biology wants one's genetic code to continue on and multiply. Hoping that it doesn't happen for you is really, really fucking weird.

Simple biology also tells us that monogamy is a stupid idea for men.

So congrats, faithfully married men: you're really, really weird.; 2/20/15, 5:42 PM
Revenant said...: What if the gay gene and HIV/AIDS evolved together?

And here I was thinking that "Muslim terrorists just need economic opportunities" would be the dumbest idea I'd heard all week.; 2/20/15, 5:45 PM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Ann Althouse said...

If you're thinking of the next generation, your grandchildren, you might be better off with a lesbian daughter. Compare the chances that she will bond with another woman and form a steady family with children who are well cared for with the chances that a heterosexual daughter will end up with with a good marriage to a man that produces children and that stays together to raise those grandchildren of yours well.

You have statistical proof that same sex marriages are more enduring that traditional marriages? Please share....; 2/20/15, 5:46 PM
Christopher said...: Most studies have shown a higher rate of divorce among lesbians than straight couples or gay men.

The theory is that this is because women, more so than men, are more likely to seek divorce. Various surveys have shown roughly 60% of all divorces are actually initiated by the woman in straight relationships.

So actually if you wanted a stable family for your grandchildren then lesbians would probably be the least likely to stick together from a purely statistical point of view.; 2/20/15, 5:50 PM
buwaya said...: "Sources?"

Anecdotal.

This would be very difficult to survey I think. Anecdotal, even in SF schools the "two mommies" situation was very rare. In @ 20 years I knew of two-three cases, out of maybe 500 I would have known about.; 2/20/15, 5:50 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "You have statistical proof that same sex marriages are more enduring that traditional marriages? Please share...."

Well, let's assume they are not, and we are talking about your daughter. She could have chosen sperm for beauty, intelligence, demeanor, and health or made a grandchild out of that guy who loved her and left her.

Do you have a preference, grandchildren-wise?; 2/20/15, 5:56 PM
Christopher said...: Damn I wish we could edit on this.; 2/20/15, 5:57 PM
Christopher said...: That should be:

The theory is that this is because women are more likely to seek divorce.; 2/20/15, 5:58 PM
Meade said...: Why would lesbian marriages be any more stable than straight marriages? Call me old-fashioned but my preference is for my grandchildren to be raised by my virtuous daughter (their mother) and her future virtuous husband (their father) but if that doesn't work out, I'll graciously accept what I get. Any grandchild at all would be a gift and a blessing.; 2/20/15, 6:08 PM
Bob Boyd said...: "What you want to bet, if she could, she'd have vaccinated her baby girl against "boy craziness"."

Who wouldn't?; 2/20/15, 6:10 PM
Anonymous said...: damikesc said...
I wonder if the writer realizes that she is proving some of the concerns about gays "indoctrinating" kids to be true....

Good point...; 2/20/15, 6:20 PM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Ann Althouse said...

Well, let's assume they are not, and we are talking about your daughter. She could have chosen sperm for beauty, intelligence, demeanor, and health or made a grandchild out of that guy who loved her and left her.

Why assume they're not? You haven't proven that they are.

Also, you can't rule out that ol' love 'em and leave 'em Harry is incapable of producing an intelligent, beautiful, and healthy child.

Do you have a preference, grandchildren-wise?

I have no biological children, so no. I do have an LBGT step-daughter. I sincerely hope she finds a stable, lasting relationship in the future. But her orientation in no way guarantees that she has a better chance of that than anyone else.; 2/20/15, 6:28 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Well, and Lesbians apparently have an even worse success rate statistically raising children than single mothers, and we know how well that works - Paul Rahe today mentioned the unmentionable, that there is a decent chance that Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown would probably be alive today if they had grown up with a man in the house, very much preferably their biological father. With apparently 17% or so of Black teenagers living with both their biological parents, it is no surprise that the Black murder rate is so many times that of other races. And, this Lesbian wants that for her kid, and now grand-kids.; 2/20/15, 6:41 PM
Craig Howard said...: What a dope!

Last I knew, it WASN'T A CHOICE.

Liberals are dumb.; 2/20/15, 6:46 PM
chickelit said...: Ann Althouse said...
If you're thinking of the next generation, your grandchildren, you might be better off with a lesbian daughter.

There are two dubious assumptions undermining this. The first is that both partners in a lesbian marriage have babies (unusual?). Suppose your daughter is the one who doesn't bear the kids? It halves your chances. The second potential disadvantage is that lesbian marriages have kids at the same rate as straight marriages.

But given what's happened to marriage rates and fertility, we should all take what we get.; 2/20/15, 7:00 PM
Oso Negro said...: Of course this puts the lie to the entire perverse business of mainstreaming homosexuality. No one wants their kid to be a homosexual, except of course, article mom. One wonders how far LBGTQ totalitarianism will go. Will there one day be mandatory homosexual experience camps so that no one feels funny about same sex fucking? In a future where reproduction is more controlled, will parents be forbidden the abortion of homosexual children? Perhaps homosexuality will be mandatory in the future with mandatory separation of the sexes, or even the genocide of a sex. In all, it reminds me of why I prefer homosexuality safe, legal, and in the closet.; 2/20/15, 7:04 PM
Oso Negro said...: Althouse reveals her sentimental weak-mindedness on homosexuality once again.
78 percent of heterosexual women have children from their current
relationship compared with only 37 percent of lesbian women (Hen
ehan et al. 2007)

So maybe you should hope your daughter marries a straight man.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/samesex/files/Krivickas-Lofquist%20PAA%202011.pdf; 2/20/15, 7:09 PM
buwaya said...: 37% seems high.
Very tough to study this.
One has to go by the sort of survey thats very vulnerable to selection bias.
If it is going to be biased, its likely to be biased high, which I suspect is whats going on here.; 2/20/15, 7:19 PM
n.n said...: The daughter will become a womb bank for homosexual men and son will be a sperm depositor in homosexual women.

Oh, well. It's already been done. Follow the morally ambiguous, evolutionary hazardous, progressive road.; 2/20/15, 7:42 PM
~ Gordon Pasha said...: Question re lesbian fertility. Recent published medical survey done in London UK reached this conclusion:

There is a significantly higher prevalence of PCO and PCOS in lesbian compared with heterosexual women. Lesbian women with either PCO or PCOS had more pronounced hyperandrogenism than did heterosexual women with either PCO or PCOS.; 2/20/15, 7:45 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: You can even select sperm based on the qualities you want in the next generation and are not limited to the sperm of the person you happen to have found to have sex with you.

Limited to the sperm of men willing to sell their sperm.; 2/20/15, 7:52 PM
MadisonMan said...: Meade: You're old-fashioned.

(You're welcome); 2/20/15, 8:03 PM
n.n said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/15, 8:07 PM
n.n said...: Heather has X mommies, Y daddies, Z of indeterminate gender, and S of indeterminate species. There's some life form, somewhere, that exhibits this behavior. It's perfectly normal or should be. Principled equality, not selective exclusion.; 2/20/15, 8:14 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Well, let's assume they are not, and we are talking about your daughter. She could have chosen sperm for beauty, intelligence, demeanor, and health or made a grandchild out of that guy who loved her and left her.

Do you have a preference, grandchildren-wise?

Why push the hypothetical forward? If you're a woman who has had a kid via a marriage that didn't last forever, do you regret that your kids are as they are (the product of sperm from the guy you loved at the time) as opposed to the kid they could have been (the product of high-quality sperm you specially selected from all available donors)? What does homosexuality have to do with it, when (as far as I know) nothing other than $ stops any woman now from selecting the DNA of her choice from a sperm bank?

Do you regret that you didn't use a sperm bank to make your kid or kids? Imagine what could have been!; 2/20/15, 8:19 PM
Hagar said...: Somerset Maugham likened it to being born with a clubfoot.; 2/20/15, 8:32 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Kohn calls our culture homophobic even though she details how wonderful her liberal Park Slope bubble is, how great her own experiences growing up gay were, and how she isn't sure her daughter would face many problems if she (the daughter) grows up to be a lesbian. It seems obvious to me that American today is more gay-friendly now than at any other time in modern history. By what metric is Kohn judging us homophobic? What culture (now or in the past) does she consider NOT homophobic? Homosexuals are a small minority of the population and will continue to be so. Does that fact mean all cultures (with small minorities of homosexuals) will be considered homophobic (as the "norm" will always be heterosexual) to Kohn?; 2/20/15, 8:33 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: By the way, wasn't one of the arguments stupid bigots made against allowing homosexual teachers or Scoutmasters or the like that those people would (consciously or not) promote a gay lifestyle or evangelize their pro-gay views--or even encourage gayness in their students/impressionable young people? Doesn't Kohn's forthright admission of her own bias, feelings, and actions along those lines (with her daughter) kinda support those arguments?; 2/20/15, 8:43 PM
Fritz said...: Revenant said...
What if the gay gene and HIV/AIDS evolved together?

And here I was thinking that "Muslim terrorists just need economic opportunities" would be the dumbest idea I'd heard all week.

No, it was all that terrorists want is jobs.; 2/20/15, 8:44 PM
Fernandinande said...: AA: Not for a female. It's the opposite of a handicap.

In England:

Almost 350 lesbian couples underwent IVF treatment in the UK in 2009 – ...
IVF treatment resulted in the birth of 358 babies to lesbian couples over the past three years [2010] while the same treatment for single women led to 660 births."

There were 698,512 live births in England and Wales in 2013, a decrease of 4.3% from 729,674 in 2012.

So about 120 births to lesbians per year out of 700,00 total = 0.017%.; 2/20/15, 8:45 PM
Fernandinande said...: AA: If you're thinking of the next generation, your grandchildren, you might be better off with a lesbian daughter. Compare the chances that she will bond with another woman and form a steady family with children who are well cared for with the chances that a heterosexual daughter will end up with with a good marriage to a man that produces children and that stays together to raise those grandchildren of yours well.

OK.

A previous post shows the unlikelihood of lesbians having biological children.

Here are some divorce comparisons:

Why Do Lesbians Have Higher Divorce Rates than Everyone Else?"

62% of civil union dissolutions (i.e. divorces) in the UK are between women despite the fact that lesbian relationships only represent 44% of civil partnerships in that country.

Lesbian couples twice as likely as gay men to end civil partnership as 'divorces' up by 20%; 2/20/15, 8:54 PM
buwaya said...: That's not a fair comparison of just IVF births to all births. There are certainly a much larger proportion of more conventional fertilizations - natural sex, artificial insemination - that are much easier and cheaper than IVF. The fertility rate is doubtless much lower than for heterosexual women, but it is certainly not THAT low.
At a guess its somewhere between 5% and 25% of the normal rate, and that probably includes children from previous heterosexual marriages or liaisons.
An interesting paper in this, for some academic.; 2/20/15, 9:12 PM
Gahrie said...: If you're thinking of the next generation, your grandchildren, you might be better off with a lesbian daughter

Woman = good

man = bad; 2/20/15, 9:19 PM
Birches said...: When my daughter plays house with her stuffed koala bears as the mom and dad, we gently remind her that they could be a dad and dad. Sometimes she changes her narrative. Sometimes she doesn’t. It’s her choice.

Methinks Sally Kohn has another Alex P. Keaton on her hands.; 2/20/15, 9:27 PM
Lyle said...: Possibly getting pregnant is not a handicap. It's a design feature that is working as designed.; 2/20/15, 10:02 PM
CStanley said...: I'm gobsmacked by Professor Althouse's hypothetical.

Why wouldn't anyone prefer a daughter selecting the sperm of the man who deposits them himself within the context of a loving, committed relationship? The traits that made him do so are heritable as well, and far more important than the superficial traits you are asking about.; 2/20/15, 10:08 PM
Unknown said...: She went from wanting her daughter to be guy, to wanting her to be herself, and along the way she cast aspersions on those she's closest with. She's an ass.; 2/20/15, 10:08 PM
Bob R said...: Meh. This is not a big deal. I'm a lefthanded bass/guitar player. I wouldn't really wish it on anyone else. But I like swapping stories and instruments with other lefties. My daughter is also a guitarist, and sometimes I wish she were a lefty. (Then I come to my senses.) The lady writing the article thinks it would be cool to share similar experiences, but seems willing to take whatever nature throws at her. Good luck to her.; 2/20/15, 10:10 PM
Unknown said...: Althouse said: "There are cases of deaf parents wanting deaf children, I believe. "

Yes, their are deaf people diametrically opposed to cochlear implants. It's as thought they think they'll be the last of a dying breed...or something. I don't know.; 2/20/15, 10:11 PM
William said...: I believe most children want their parents to be as predictable and normal as is humanly possible. It's possible that in her neighborhood church goers are more unusual than cross dressers, but, as a general rule, no kid in middle school wants his father to wear high heels and lipstick on parent night.; 2/20/15, 11:01 PM
Pianoman said...: My wife has a cousin who has fully embraced "Deaf Culture". She started railing about it at our house once. First I'd ever heard of someone deliberately refusing to make their lives better.

Not allowing children to have such an implant is just insanity. Parents who do this crap are not only denying their children the ability to communicate verbally with others, but they are also denying them the joy of music. It's child abuse.

Imagine what it's like -- you're 21, deaf, and your parents tell you, "Yes, there was medical technology that could have restored your hearing as an infant. But we kept you deaf all your life so that you would fit into *OUR* tribe, and not be like all those *OTHER* losers."

Go listen to any three Beethoven symphonies, and then tell me that it's OK for parents to deny their children this technology.

(If you want to get good and angry, Google "deaf culture cochlear implant". Keep hot beverages out of your hands while reading, otherwise you might lose your monitor.); 2/20/15, 11:24 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: The sperm catalog is a catalog of ultimate splooge stooges isn't it?; 2/20/15, 11:34 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Like a roster of all-stars for splooge stoogery.; 2/20/15, 11:39 PM
Paul said...: If being homosexual was genetic.. then they would have bread themselves out of existence millenniums ago.

So what causes it? I think for some it's insecurity with the opposite sex, others loss of morals, and still others a massive craving for sex, any kind of sex. No doubt there are many reasons.

And sure parents don't what their children that way cause if they are.. no GRANDCHILDREN.

Simple, no?; 2/21/15, 12:13 AM
Jason said...: Why do lesbians have higher divorce rates than everyone else?

BECAUSE THEY'RE BATSHIT CRAZY!!

Not all of them, but enough of them. Don't believe me? Hang out with my old band that used to play lesbian bars all the time. Putting away gear in the parking lot. Watch the girls spilling out of the bar screaming at each other. The lesbian drama is off the charts!; 2/21/15, 12:45 AM
chickelit said...: Paul noted: If being homosexual was genetic... then they would have bread themselves out of existence millenniums ago.

Man cannot live by bred alone.; 2/21/15, 12:58 AM
chickelit said...: Freeman Hunt said...
The sperm catalog is a catalog of ultimate splooge stooges isn't it?

Seed catalogs are available online as well at most plant nurseries.; 2/21/15, 1:02 AM
chillblaine said...: compare the chances that she will bond with another woman and form a steady family with children who are well cared for with the chances that a heterosexual daughter will end up with with a good marriage to a man.

Wow. Well, Sally Kohn's daughter won't learn desirable heterosexual behaviors because her parents aren't modeling them.; 2/21/15, 8:08 AM
dbp said...: If I remember my ecology, fertility rate is defined by the number of offspring per female. If the replacement rate is 2 and some small fraction for a marriage containing only one woman, it would need to be 4 and change for a two woman marriage to have the same rate.; 2/21/15, 9:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Ann Althouse said...

Well, let's assume they are not, and we are talking about your daughter. She could have chosen sperm for beauty, intelligence, demeanor, and health or made a grandchild out of that guy who loved her and left her.

Do you have a preference, grandchildren-wise?

Let's fix that question for you:
1: Do I want my grandchildren raised by a mother and a father, female and male, learning from and experiencing the love of both? Or do I want them only drawing from the female side, never having the love of a father, never learning what a father can teach?

I want A, not B.

2: Do I want my grandchildren being sired by the best man my daughter can find? Or by the "best" person so desperate for money he became a sperm donor?

I'll go for A, not B.

3: What in the world makes you think lesbians are any good at picking out a good man to be a father?; 2/23/15, 2:43 PM