The specific subject that prompted Obama to disparage his own bullshitting skills was same sex marriage, which — to get elected in 2008 — Obama claimed to oppose based on religion.
Axelrod writes that he knew Obama was in favor of same-sex marriages during the first presidential campaign, even as Obama publicly said he only supported civil unions, not full marriages. Axelrod also admits to counseling Obama to conceal that position for political reasons. “Opposition to gay marriage was particularly strong in the black church, and as he ran for higher office, he grudgingly accepted the counsel of more pragmatic folks like me, and modified his position to support civil unions rather than marriage, which he would term a ‘sacred union,’ ” Axelrod writes [in "Believer: My Forty Years in Politics"].
What Obama said was: "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman... Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix." I knew at the time he was lying, didn't you? I don't need an Axelrod book to say so. When Obama made that statement — at the Saddleback Presidential Forum, August 16, 2008 —
I was live-blogging:
7:25: Define marriage. It's "the union of a man and a woman," and for him as a Christian, it's "sacred" and "God's in the mix." How about a constitutional amendment saying that? No. The tradition has been to leave this to state law. He admits that there is a concern about same-sex marriage, which he doesn't support, but he likes civil unions. He seems a little robotic intoning this position. I'm sure in his heart he supports full rights for gay people, but obviously, at this point, he can't say it.
And
here's something I blogged right after the election in November 2008 (when some people were saying it wasn't fair that Obama's bullshit was used in robo-calls to prompt Californians to vote for Prop 8, which put the ban on gay marriage into the California constitution):
So Obama was instrumental in getting Prop 8 passed. What do you think of that? Some Obama supporters say it wasn't fair to use Obama like that. After all, Obama also said Prop 8 was "divisive and discriminatory." But that's absurd. Obama had to know that his words would be used by opponents of same-sex marriage. He himself is an opponent of same-sex marriage... except to the extent that he isn't, and I certainly think in his heart he's not, but that in his head he knew he had to say he was to get elected.
I don't blame him for this dishonesty. I think it's like the dishonesty of professing a belief in God if you don't have it. You're not going to get elected without that dishonesty, so we can just forget about all the good people who don't lie about such things. They're not going to make it to the presidency. Not in the near future anyway. But you can't have it both ways. You're responsible for the position you avow, and the Prop 8 proponents did nothing wrong using his voice like that.
पोस्ट्स
९८ टिप्पण्या:
Of course he was lying. His lips were moving.
Everyone knew he was bullshitting.
The specifics of Obama having lied on this point aren't really even particularly interesting to write about, since it was pretty clear to everyone at the time and since then.
But the fact that we accept politicians lying, continually, is pretty sad.
I once theorized that this was driving the rise of the hardliners on either side: you know where they stand. Pragmatists, you can't tell if you're the sucker or if the other guy is.
And -- by the way -- do you believe that Obama is a Christian, in any conventional sense? I'm not saying he's a Muslim, but his view of the world seems to pretty much treat all religions as basically the same, all telling you to be a Good Person and God Loves You.
I've never forgiven you for voting for this man and helping to foist him on us. I'm not sure we'll recover from his brand of 'audacity'.
Obama the opportunistic boyfriend. I wonder if this post should have a "rape" tag. Or if the girlfriend was equally inebriated when the consensus was consummated.
And -- by the way -- do you believe that Obama is a Christian, in any conventional sense?
He's is in the 'black liberation theology' sense, which is to say that he uses the structure of christianity to push his 'social justice', but has no real heart for christ.
Politicians lied about their opposition to same-sex marriage in order to get elected, and the courts imposed it by fiat.
All to defy the democratic majority.
What's not to love about same-sex marriage?
But the fact that we accept politicians lying, continually, is pretty sad.
It's a reflection on Gotcha Politics and soundbite campaigns.
"I'm just not very good at bullshitting.""
Which is exactly what a bullshitter would want you to believe.
So what will Obama say now? Is this something that he will dispute?
We've had Hillary, quoted in Defense Secretary Bob Gates' book, saying that her Iraq war votes were just for the sake of politics, right?
There's little reason to believe any of these people with regard to any "moderate" campaign promises. If they had their way, they'd be every bit as leftist as conservative pundits warn us.
Professor Althouse, are you sorry for having voted for Obama?
Wait a minute... weren't we all just talking about what a liar Axelrod is, for what he said about Mitt's concession phone call?
Believe nothing he says, and you'll be right more often than wrong.
I for one have a hard time believing that Obama would ever concede he's not good at something.
you know, I think he's right. He's not good at bullshitting. What that means is that he actually believes the crazy shit he says. Like "Randomly shoot some folks in a deli". He actually thinks he is telling the truth at all times and that he has the smart take.
Consider what that means for this country. Try not to kill yourself through drinking after.
I knew at the time he was lying, didn't you?
Yes, OTOH I agree with EDH, enlightened creatures such as university professors might be delighted that the rubes were fooled, but one would think that a Con Law professor would be at least mildly disturbed that gay marriage was foisted on the public through deception, obfuscation, and judicial fiat.
"I don't blame him for this dishonesty. I think it's like the dishonesty of professing a belief in God if you don't have it."
I am remembering, now, that I skipped reading that post, beyond a cursory skim, the one or ones that discussed the 'professing belief dishonestly' proposition. Honestly, because it seemed to me, at a superficial read, that AA was defending the notion that we can virtuously participate in civic life without any regard for Truth, or even truth: which in my world implicates one in grave immorality. Lying in extreme circumstances, e.g to save a child's life, while being a violation of the divine law may well be very little sinful: but accepting lying as a given of political life just isn't anything I care to countenance. On the other hand, if the only practical choice for a given office is between two proven liars, I expect that the moralists will allow one to vote for the liar who is none the less most committed to advancing the common good in spite of her immorality. But the more rigorous might well counsel leaving the election's outcome to the designs of the Eye of Providence and abstaining from voting for either candidate.
"I knew at the time he was lying, didn't you?"
I figured he was lying and I could not believe that anyone believed him. So, if everybody knows you are lying, what is the point?
"I'm too honest for this stuff--I can barely lie about it, but I'll try!"
Progressives let Democrats off the hook whenever they say something slightly conservative, on the safe assumption the Democrat is lying. They do not let Republicans off the hook since they assume that they are telling the truth.
Here's why this matters even though everyone believed he was full of it back then--by letting this go public, Obama is showing that he really doesn't care if half the country knows he lied to them to trick them into voting for him, and the supporters of gay marriage were tossed under the bus in 2008. He is truly done trying to be president, and is now a pure, petulant child. Complete disgrace.
He seems to have made remarkable progress regarding his bullshitting skills.
Not everyone knew he was lying. Religous blacks who were deeply uncomfortable with SSM likely believed him. Certain groups of liberalish Catholics probably believed him. Given that EVERYTHING this Admin does is poll-tested to the smallest degree, it's very likely that this lie delivered some important votes in key states.
And yes, of course I knew he was lying - of course, unlike most of the American electorate I have the background in history and politics to decode what he's really saying and to understand the importance of his various past associates (Khalidi, Ayers, Frank Davis, Rev Wright, etc.). It was all there for anyone paying attention but there was also a thin patina of deniability that spokesliars like Axelrod could use to spin on TV.
What's really revealing is that Obama now sees himself as so invincible that he's given David "Flopsweat" Axelrod permission to reveal this BSing to sell his slimy little book. That shows an incredible degree of arrogance on Obama's part - usually successful conmen don't like to let the marks know just how badly they've been had, just in case they have to pull another con.
He is also very good at Treason.
2008/2012 Conservative: "I don't believe obama when he says he supports traditional marriage."
2008/2012 Lefty: "Racist!"
2015 Lefty: Everyone knows obama was bullshitting in 2008/2012.
It's one thing to lie to the electorate about one's belief in that SSM isn't really marriage, but it's quite another to wrap that belief in such religious language, when it's clear to your conscience that you don't believe it. There's lots of ways Obama could have not supported SSM without quoting "chapter & verse" --- e.g. just like the House, Senate, & President Clinton did when they signed DOMA into law.
That Obama essentially "swore on the Bible" & lied like a motherfucker about it for political gain is despicable.
But then, who was he targeting with this lie? Black Christians, who are so used & lied to by their leadership that this probably isn't even a drop in the bucket.
Anyone stupid enough to have believed that Obama genuinely "opposed" same-sex marriage during his '08 and '12 campaigns is too stupid to have any business voting.
For that matter, any one stupid enough to have voted for Obama based on his claims to want to improve life for the middle class is too stupid to have any business voting.
We are well and truly screwed.
"I’m just not very good at bullshitting," Obama bullshitted to David Axelrod.
------------
Classic Obama, the con man.
Prop 8 was supported by majority blacks. If he had not bullshitted about God and sanctity of the union, blah, blah, I wonder what percentage of Black votes he would have got.
I don't blame him for this dishonesty.
Yeah, because you were invested in that goal. What about every other issue where he may have been dishonest? It is not even a question. We know he has been that (Exhibit A Gruber told us, for instance). How is it all working out for you?
"I don't blame him for this dishonesty."
What would be an example of Presidential candidate dishonesty that would not be acceptable?
"I knew at the time he was lying, didn't you?"
He was always lying.. did you know?
It appears not too many people are alarmed by a "law professor" exhibiting such a cynical [and dangerous] view of the Truth. As somebody else says, it's Potemkin Villages all the way down.
So.....does anyone believe him now when he says he has Israel's back?
You're a fool if you do!
I have no problem with saying he is the most disgusting President in my lifetime. (I actually have a hard time when I am typing putting a capital "p" on the word president when I talk about him.)
Jack Wayne: "It appears not too many people are alarmed by a "law professor" exhibiting such a cynical [and dangerous] view of the Truth. As somebody else says, it's Potemkin Villages all the way down."
Before you climb on your high horse you would be wise to remember that the Crusaders constructed many a potemkin village on their way to the Holy lands.
Marriage is not the union of a man and a woman.
It's the ways it works and fails.
They're married.
That does not refer to a ceremony.
The sexual difference is vital.
They fit together as a man and a woman, or fail to.
"I certainly think in his heart he's not, but that in his head he knew he had to say he was to get elected. I don't blame him for this dishonesty. I think it's like the dishonesty of professing a belief in God if you don't have it."
Was this just a case of situational ethics, not blaming the guy because you agreed with what was in his "heart" (are you sure he had has one?), one flexible pragmatists winking at another, or do you think it is right in principle for politicians to lie in this way? Or is there a metaprinciple at work -- dishonesty in the service of Progressive causes is OK?
"I'm just not very good at bullshitting." Barry even bullshits his humblebrag.
"Professor Althouse, are you sorry for having voted for Obama?"
Voting against McCain means never having to say you're sorry.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Groucho Marx
I don't believe Obama has any religious affiliation either.
More agnostic-which is cool
Althouse on bald-faced lying on one of the most important social issues of the day: "I don't blame him for this dishonesty."
In other news, Democrats perfect new vaginally-operated voting machine!
Althouse logic: "Sure, it was rape. Actually, it was mass rape. A lot of people were victimized. But if I orgasmed, personally, it doesn't really count, right?"
The trick is sincerity. Once you can fake that part, you've got it made.
Nice to know that Althouse has no problem with a liar deceiving people when she agrees with the result. That's just typical of unprincipled democrat party progressives. Outright lies like "You can keep your doctor" are acceptable because they serve the agenda. Other lies like, "it was the result of a Youtube video" are okay too, because, hey, we all know the guy is a liar. At least he didn't say "Binders full of women". THAT would be grounds for outrage.
He isn't good at bullshitting. He doesn't know anything. Everything he says is wrong.
Honestly, because it seemed to me, at a superficial read, that AA was defending the notion that we can virtuously participate in civic life without any regard for Truth, or even truth: which in my world implicates one in grave immorality.
Apparently, some people believe that lying about things like sex, or faith, is just the egg that needs to be broke to make the omelet.
NBC suspends Williams for 6 months without pay. Can we the citizens of America suspend Obama?
Was he lying? That phrase "for me as a Christian" was a significant caveat. It wasn't that we knew he was lying, it was that we knew what he meant.
How can we know that he does not still favor civil unions? In France, the civil ceremony and the religious ceremony are separate. Maybe that's his underlying position.
Ann Althouse says she has supported gay marriage for as long as he has known about the idea, but voted for Mitt Romney who said he didn't. Was that a lie?
Why should we believe he was making a crass political calculation then, as opposed to making one now?
He's black and at least nominally Christian; he was raised in Muslim and Christian households. Those all point to "not in favor of gay marriage". He's never taken a stand for gay rights that wasn't supported by a majority of the electorate. His position on gay marriage has always mirrored that of potential voters.
It's hard to see how Williams can survive on a mere $6.5M for 6 months of "reporting".
I've always said that Obama's true gift is that while everyone knows he's a liar, a majority of the people credits him for telling the good kind of lie.
Speaks ill of our majority, that does.
He is a blow with the wind kind of guy.
Captain Bullshit laying out yet more bullshit. It's what he does. It's who he is.
I thought it was part of his campaign plan for people to think he was lying so that every person who voted for him thought that the things he said that they didn't agree with were just things he had to say so those other people would vote for him.
Then they got to be a little sad, because you just can't be honest and win a campaign, but at least Barack understood them, so it was all going to be okay.
He told us he was a liar when he promised to enable skyrocketing electricity costs no matter what he might say later. That issue directly concerns far more folks directly.
Keep in mind, he lied a second time by telling us he "evolved" on gay marriage. He may not be good at it..but folks wanna eat it up.
That's easy, Bob. Pro abortion.
Politics is the art of the possible, and lying is one technique of that art.
Yep, and President Obama isn't talking like Christ when it comes to the Islamic State and Islamists.
What he means is that he isn't very good at telling lies he doesn't believe. But he is remarkably adept at telling all the lies he does believe.
This is the legacy of Bill Clinton.
In order to make Clinton look not so bad, they media and Democrats (But I repeat myself) had to convince all of us that all politicians lie. Which means, when he looked in the camera and lied so boldly to all of us, well, it wasn't so bad. Because everyone does it.
They also said all Presidents cheat on their spouses. Once again, to lesson the blow to Bill Clinton.
And now we have to live with that legacy. It's ok that Obama is a liar, because all politicians are liars. Remember? Bush lied people died!
See? Bush too was a liar. Right?
Barack Obama is a very secretive person, as you would expect from someone who grew up as different and an outsider in his own family.
But after 6 years of continual campaigning a pattern builds up from his actions regardless of his statements for immediate expediency.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive," etc.
The black churches were a big part of the Prop 8 coalition. Obama had a big influence on them. So what was unfair again ?
Obama told Newsweek reporter Richard Wolff, "You know, I actually believe my own bullshit."
Anyone with critical thinking skills could see right through him.
Harry Frankfurt: On Bullshit
Normally a debate between Axelrod and O'Reilly would not be a fair fight, but Axelrod was handicapped by being obliged to defend the indefensible, and O'Reilly was advantaged by rightful indignation, however wrongheaded his arguments were.
Drago is all over this. I have nothing to add, but hear, hear.
People like me who were invested in 2008 Democratic primary watched in disbelief when Obama got a pass on lie after lie from the media, plagiarism, and other things that would have killed other people's candidacy.
Where were you all in Democratic Primary 2008? The Dem party Rules and Bylaws Committee even stole delegates from Hillary and gave it to this nincompoop to prop him up. Where were you all when that happened?
Just imagine.
Obama has no courage of his convictions.
Sneer an snicker about social conservatives, at least their principles are more important than that getting elected.
Everyone mouths the platitudes about 'character matters. But in the end Democrats always abandon everything for the end result. Always.
This Brian Williams thing is a sweet comeuppance and Hillary supporters will wait for the day that happens to all Obama minions. In fact, that is the biggest struggle that is going on right now in the Dem party. They need the next administration not to go digging around for dirt and corruption. Even making a course correction will require exposing the ills of Obama administration. If the dirt does get to the top, a lot of Obama minions will lose their jobs and credibility (as if they had any) and run out of the town.
I'm just not very good at bullshitting.
And we're supposed to believe this?
"I'm just not very good at bullshitting."
The Obama quote that I remember is that he believes his own bullshit.
I don't think he's cynical in the manner of Bill Clinton. Clinton had a reputation as a liar, which makes him a very bad liar.
Obama's a very good liar. Part of it is that he's rarely challenged by the media. And he doesn't challenge himself. He's a conflict avoider, that's one of the most obvious things about him. I think he lives in a bubble of delusions as opposed to a cynical liar in the Clinton mold.
Clinton, for instance, cheats on his wife. I doubt very much Obama has ever cheated on his wife. I would be very surprised. Clinton lied all the time, which makes him a bad liar. Obama gets away with his lies by telling the truth as often as possible. He might be unaware that he's lying, which seems weird. But he does that by pushing reality and truth out of his mind, not thinking about what he said. His actions do not match his words. He's very post-modern in his attitudes, which is to say, he's a very dangerous liar. Clinton is like a liar in the middle ages. He knows it's bad and he enjoys it. Obama denies that he's bad and refuses to see any badness in his own behavior.
Bill Clinton was competent.
Obama really thought that he was creating a red line. And he thought Isis was the jayvee team. He thinks Obamacare is working fine.
If gay people want to celebrate somebody, it should be Joe Biden, who forced his hand. Joe Biden pushed him, confronted him with his dishonesty. I don't think Obama is comfortable with the idea that he's a liar. Like most of us, he rejects that label. He wants to be honest and true. That's why it's so important for the media to confront Obama with the truth, and why he is so desperate to avoid any confrontations. He is wrong on so many things!
Of course a big problem is our media is just as delusional and dishonest as Obama. When given the opportunity to confront him, they abandon their role and prop up his fantasies.
Bill Clinton was competent.
Newt Gingrich was competent. Bill Clinton was a nihilist who had a Republican Congress.
Although I grant you that nihilist is preferable to any number of bad ideologies.
Obama is a fucking incompetent person who has not accomplished anything in his life and if it was not for the delusions and incompetence of others, he wouldn't be where he is today. Who cares what he is like. It is irrelevant. It is what others did with him that is the most troubling. Even the smarter Althouse got taken for a ride. Of course, she does not ever have to buy Obamacare. Maybe this net neutrality business will catch her.
Ooooo.. nihilist! big word..
What do you call it when you forgive one candidate all his lies? Cruel neutrality!
"I'm just not very good at bullshitting."
The classic non deprecating self deprecation. This is absolutely in character for a narcissist.
The Bill Clinton tangent is indicative of the deeper issue with the progressive electorate. Both Clinton and Obama are fundamentally dishonest people. They are also absolutely transparent about this dishonesty. Everyone knows Clinton is a bald faced liar. Even Obama supporters know he is lying when he says things like you can keep your plan and keep your doctor.
He has been caught lying repeatedly and progressives still support him. It is because the progressive movement itself is fundamentally dishonest. Progressives are inherently dishonest people. They claim to care about poor people and the only way they help poor people is to take away their economic and social freedom. They claim to want to improve education and they set up a system that perfectly segregates people by socio-economic status and make it mandatory. Racism in America today clearly comes from the left but they can't say two words without crying racism! Eugenics is alive and well in planned parenthood.
The nation lost its collective mind when Obama was running and first elected.
I mean, this was an obvious lie because he'd already written out his true stance on a campaign questionnaire. But like so many things, we looked the other way because that's what we did in the Early Obama Era.
At least we aren't crazy senseless about him anymore. I can't understand how he was reelected. But we aren't blinded by him anymore.
And funny for Althouse to find this forgivable, when Romney was supposed to be responsible for someone somewhere doing something that seemed racist to Althouse. That was too ugly.
Liberal Guilt.
"He might be unaware that he's lying, which seems weird. But he does that by pushing reality and truth out of his mind, not thinking about what he said."
See Frankfurter, Harry. Though treating Barry's BS as BS in the proper philosophical sense is giving him too much credit.
AA's stance is puzzling, assuming that she doesn't simply approve of lying for a cause she likes. She doesn't care for BS in general. She appears to oppose lying at least in some cases. Yet she doesn't blame Barry for lying. She is quick to spot inconsistency in others and presumably can recognize it in her own position. What's the unexamined assumption that accounts for the inconsistency here? What kinds of lies and BS pass muster?
I wonder if Althouse has the same opinion regarding perjury. How else can a plaintiff or a defendant win if they can't lie under oath?
What's interesting is for how many people Obama's lying on this point was encouraging. You can see them saying to themselves all politicians lie! They do it to get elected, because they have to fool some people into voting for them. Look! Obama has just lied about SSM. That must be to fool the rednecks and bigots into voting for him. Which means...I am among the demographic to whom he does NOT need to lie to get elected. He's going to tell ME the truth, because he only needs to lie to people who are not like me. Yay!
Do you teach your students that lying and deception is preferable to going about changing hearts and minds in an intelligent and honest fashion?
Ethics. Have you heard of the concept? I would be very concerned if my kid were to ever take a class you were teaching.
And we wonder why lawyers have the reputation of being slimey weasels.
pm317, I don't understand something. You bash obama at every turn for legitimate reasons and you also slam the obamabots for being buttlicking drones who thinks he can do no wrong.
But -
Hillary's platform was identical to Obama's.
She has a longer history of lies, deceptions, and graft.
She was fired for unethical behavior.
She covered for her molesting rapist husband and attacked his victims for years.
She started the lie about the video, to cover for arming al Qaeda and denying her own ambassador standard security...and ignored the pleas for help from Benghazi. That horrific save-her-own-ass-don't-give-a-shit event is not just Obama's doing.
Not to mention her foundation raking in millions from terror sponsoring, misogynist, regimes. Or how Huma's family belong to the muslim brotherhood -- the same MB whose goal is a global caliphate, ISIS, hezbollah, al qaeda, being their foot soldiers.
Hillary IS Obama's twin in all ways and connections. You hate him but seem so willing to forgive and forget her
crlmes and corruption. Was she done dirty regarding the primary.... Considering the dirty things she has done politically to others, what she did to a little girl, and what she did to her ambassador and 3 others in Benghazi...the primary was small potatoes political play.
So how are you any different than the obamabots?
"Bullshat", you mean. Don't ever miss the opportunity to conjugate that verb correctly.
@Annie,
Hillary was not Obama's twin in 2008.. What the party did to her was abominable. You don't know what happened in Dem primary 2008. If you did, you wouldn't be so confused. And you have a different bias towards her than I do. Since 2008, lot of things have happened and I am no longer enthusiastic about Hillary now. But I was then and what did they to her to prop this nincompoop is beyond despicable.
"Hillary was not Obama's twin in 2008.. What the party did to her was abominable."
You mean where the party enforced its own delegate rules, and because she had no plan to compete in many states she let Obama outdo her in the delegate counts?
Face it--her team screwed up bad. They were so sure of her inevitability (hell, it was her only selling point!) that they didn't really have a plan B if Obama wasn't knocked out by Super Tuesday. They failed to seriously compete in the post-Iowa caucuses, and it didn't help that she was a poor campaigner. They have especially no excuse considering they were from Bill's old machine.
Obama may be a lying trickster, but for Hillary to blame anyone but herself for grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory in 2008 is ludicrous.
I think his lie helped him among black churchgoers--they probably would have voted for him anyway (discomfort over gay marriage likely wouldn't make them avoid voting for the first black president) but mouthing the "right" words about gay marriage would have taken that issue off the table. The gay groups were used to being sold down the river by Democrats, and it wasn't like McCain was saying anything better for them.
As a supporter of SSM, I find all of this abominable--it's one thing when someone like George Bush opposes it because of his personal beliefs, however I may disagree with them. It's quite another when someone like Obama fails to speak up when it may have shown some bravery. It demonstrates his poor character. And going public with it now, while it doesn't surprise me, just shows how little he cares what people think anymore. This is not an honest and sincere man--this is a cowardly, craven politician who now lacks what even cowardly, craven politicians usual have--some concern for what the people think.
I thought Bush was lying about being a "compassionate" conservative and that he would really be a conservative.
So, I tricked myself into voting for him the first time.
Dopey Tank.
I don't think he was in favor of gay marriage, I think Axelrod is lying about lying.
Back in 2007, President Obama sponsored a bill as Senator Obama cited as "Responsible Fatherhood and Healthy Families Act of 2007"
In the first section of the bill highlights as its goal as "Healthy marriage promotion and responsible fatherhood program.
I don't get it. By Obama's actions he was clearly not in favor of gay marriage at all. In fact he sponsored a bill very bluntly stating the purpose of marriage was child centered and not adult center.
Now his former political consultant is attempting to rewrite his record, stating that really his support of marriage and even this bill you co-sponsored was a complete farce to get the public to like Obama at the time.
Honesty goes a long way, even with people you disagree with because you can trust them on things when you find common ground.
But this week Presidents Day is coming up, and my children read books about President Washington, who couldn't tell a lie and President 'Honest Abe' Lincoln.
With the exemption of issues around national security, no the President can NOT lie.
Maybe if you are in disagreement with the majority of people on an issue that they consider to be important, you should just accept the fact that you are not going to be their leader.
Lying to get a position of power over people isn't justified because you really want the position.
Nobody 'deserves' to be the President. Even if you can excuse the lies in and of themselves, the entitlement inherent in such an action is precisely the opposite of what the continuation of the republic requires.
Does anyone believe Bush really believed in the need for a constitutional amendment defining marriage? Really?
Perhaps. That's not quite as bad a meal as what Obama did: a flip,flop,flip covered with layers of dishonesty.
And his appeals to his Christian beliefs was just appalling.
Did I think he was lying? In part. I didn't think he believed laws limiting the recognition of marriage to opposite sex couples were unconstitutional.
I'd like to know when he evolved on this matter?
"Does anyone believe Bush really believed in the need for a constitutional amendment defining marriage? Really?"
I don't know about whether Bush really believed in the amendment--that may have been a tactical bit of bullshittery--but on the core issue I believe Bush was a marriage traditionalist. If he wasn't--if he shared his wife's opinion on that matter, but adopted his public position just for votes--it would be as bad as what Obama did.
The thing to remember with Obama is that he has never taken a brave position--that is, one that can be defended solely on principle, where he would have to stick his neck out. Wherever he did something unpopular, it was because he believed it would be popular with a key constituency, or would become popular in the long run.
See Frankfurter, Harry.
I thought you had conflated Felix Frankfurter and Harry Blackmun. So I was really confused about who I should see! But it turns out there's a philosopher named Harry Frankfurt. I am sure that's who you're talking about, because he's the author of On Bullshit.
If they ever make the movie, On Bullshit, I nominate Leonard Nimoy to play Wittgenstein.
Voting against McCain means never having to say you're sorry.
He had the good sense to want to avoid talking to Leslie Knope so there's that.
this is pretty good...
It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false.
That's Bill Clinton. I think Clinton often knows that he is lying. His perjury, for instance. Pretending to inhale. Clinton often seems like a big slob. But he's quite careful in his lies. His lies are calculated. He knows they are lies. Bill Clinton cares very much what other people think of him. He knows when he's lying. He knows when he's telling the truth. There's a lot of awareness in Bill Clinton.
Now Frankfurt describes a bullshitter.
For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.
That seems to me to be Obama's m.o. He's got an ideology, a bunch of ideas, but he has no real interest in the actual reality of the world. Imagine releasing a healthcare website that did not work. Did you not notice that your main program was not working? Is it not important that it works, and works right?
Frankfurt mentions caring quite a bit in his essay. Do you care? If you put your heart and soul into something, you still might fail. It still might suck. You actually need talent. But caring about what you are doing, that is fundamental to success. If you don't care, you are lost.
It didn't matter to him. I think that was the moment that shocked people, that finally woke up the media. He didn't care about Obamacare.
In order to make Clinton look not so bad, they media and Democrats (But I repeat myself) had to convince all of us that all politicians lie.
If you think the belief that all politicians lie was invented by the media to defend Bill Clinton, you've off by a few thousand years.
You knew he was lying to you but you voted for him anyway? Professor, you should ashamed. I know, you don't care because you got what you wanted politically. But at what cost to our country? If he was willing to lie about this, didn't you consider the fact that he's probably lying about all sorts of other things as well? Should a serial liar be elected president? NO.
Politicians who lie this way should not be elected. Obama told all sorts of other fibs on the campaign trail and hasn't stopped lying since he took office.
The type of leaders we elect should, first of all, possess the type of high character fitting for the position, separate and apart from their views on specific political issues. If candidates cannot past that threshold test, the rest is irrelevant.
It's why CHARACTER MATTERS and Obama was unfit to be elected in 2008 and why he's still unfit to hold that office today. He's a man of low character willing to lie cheat, steal and bully to gain some partisan edge. People who willfully vote for him knowing that about him did our country a great disservice.
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