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১৪৮টি মন্তব্য:
Me, I would bring up the KKK Grand Wizard Robert Byrd. Case closed.
Why not Al Sharpton?
Except it really wasn't what it appeared to be, maybe.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/12/david_duke_adviser_kenny_knigh.html
If Obama got a pass, we'd not still be hearing about Wright.
He didn't speak to a "racist group".
He spoke in the same building, to a different group, earlier on the same day.
This is not even guilt-by-association; it's guilt-by-unintentional-proximity.
Newt may not have realized that the story was a lie. Leave it to Meet the Press to spread it around.
I guess the clip was from CBS but they were also talking about it on MTP. Democrats are huffing and puffing trying to inflate that balloon.
With all of the stuff going on in this world, Schieffer deems it necessary to fling this nonsense out there.
Do they wonder why we despise them?
It turns out that he may not have spoken in front of group after all.
But Newt is right to invoke Jeremiah Wright.
This all goes back to when Obama was elected. Republicans brought up Obamas 20+ long association with a preacher who spells America as "Amerikkka" and says "God damn America". He then got his political start in the house of a guy who bombed the capitol, and who helped him write his autobiography.
But libs and dems said at the time that associations don't matter. Suddenly though they do again. Even when it turns out there isn't even an association.
So, if he was associated with David Duke would that matter? I would think so. If he said it was innocent mistake we could view his argument and see if it has merit. But we would certainly say that assoicating with white supremacists on its face would constitute grounds to question whether he was suited for political life. No respecting republican would want to associate with a white supremacist.
And many republicans were not willing to sweep it under the rug either. THey bought that it might be a mistake but still thought that there was no reason to defend him since dems would be going after him and they didn't want to be associated with someone who MIGHT be a white supremacist.
Only if that's bad, associating with a domestic terrorist or radical preacher that hates Amerikkka are even worse. And those connections weren't simply speaking at one event, but long associations.
So, Newt is exactly right to make the comparison. Yet again, the libs are revealed to be complete and utter hypocrites who have no moral bone in their body. And most have no problem wih Obama associating with Wright OR Ayers because, frankly, most of them think that AMerica is Amerikkka.
Associations are only bad when the republicans have them. Even though they don't, apparently, actually have them.
Rolling Stone will soon report that Scalise was standing on top of a dog when he spoke.
He's not a racist. Politicians speak to all manner of folk.
If it's in fact a false story we need to have the guy who tried passing it off as real give a serious mea culpa and be forced to step down for such a blatant attempt at character assassination.
Ifit was in error, it's not an excuse is it?
Did those who were pushing the story accept that Scalise may have not known he was in fact speaking in front of such a group?
Scalise was forced to apologize for a speech he apparently never even gave.
This "reporter" should be held accountable for a story he did in fact write.
I yearn for the good old days, when the white racists were Democrats, not just the black racists.
Except that I thought the "Steve Scalise spoke to a David Duke-related group" had been debunked. I guess there's no such thing as debunking false reports when it comes to Republican lawmakers and UVa fraternities.
"Scalise didn't speak to EURO, he spoke to the Jefferson Heights Civic Association who had their event at the same hotel two and a half hours before the EURO event even began."
And Trayon Martin wasn't a little kid shot while out for some skittles and the Gentle Giant wasn't Gentle or executed by a "racist" cop.
Its now got to point where the Liberal MSM just makes shit up, and no one cares.
Why is a journalist asking the question? Scalise did not speak before the group.
What about the history Scalise has generated in 12 years of life as an elected representative? Lots of racist remarks? No?
Oh. Sharpton has visited the White House how many times?
But remember, Big Media does not have an agenda. Schifer does not have an agenda.
This must come under the Democrat core principle of "facts or not as important as the seriousness of the allegation."
Schiffer is making the point the even if Scalise is not a racist, isn't it something that Scalise is required to address over and over again? After all, wasn't it Scalise who described Obama as 'for a Negro he seems articulate(doesn't lapse into hood speak more than 6 times a day) clean and articulate'. So just because Scalise has NEVER done or said anything racist, he must pay penance.
And the UNVA Frat Rape along with Lena Durham's (or whatever the fuck her name is) Oberlin Republican Rapist didn't exist.
But liberals are still acting like they did.
We also have Robert Byrd in congress. He was head kleagle in the KKK for years. Yet he died a venerated senator. How many dems supported his re-electoin for decades as a senator.
I'm assuming his views on race moderated over time and that the dems are not just kkk supporters. But if they could support Byrd, then we should at least see if Scalise is a white racist before we peg him as one simply because he spoke at a single meeting about a non racial issue.
I was willing to throw him overboard for the sake of unity, but now that it's revealed that he didnt' even make the speech in front of the group, I'm not going to assist in his false execution
In other news, Edward Brooke who was Senator from Massachussetts from 1967-1979 died yesterday.
He was the first black man elected to the Senate, ever. He was one of only 2 in the 20th century.
Given that he was black and from the democrat state of Mass, you can guess his party.
Many people would guess wrong. The first elected black senator was a Republican.
John Henry
Whenever the liberals want to protect Obama they accuse some Republican of racism or anti-whateverism.
And Republicans always fall for it.
Big Mike-
The relevant quote is:
" . . . after it was reported that Scalise once spoke before a white supremacist group."
CBS is not claiming that Scalise spoke before a white supremacist group, they are merely observing, using the passive voice, that it had been reported that Scalise once spoke before a white supremacist group.
The media does this shit ALL OF THE TIME, and always in a way that makes the GOP look bad.
I think people are just fucking with the progs now. This is sort of like the Palin dog story.
Put the story out there, let all good progs get their panties in a twist then:
ZAP!!!
Show them how foolish they are.
Including, apparently, Newt Gingrich.
John Henry
Except, we are now learning that he actually didn't address a White supremacist group.
Give the MSM a break...they thought Emily Litella was a How to video......
Bu bu but what about ________ ??!?!?!!!
The pattern is that the media will make some wild, improbable claim based on weak evidence (like the Bush TANG 'expose'), the story is thoroughly debunked, yet democrats and liberals will continue to act as though the story is the gospel truth.
I think that most of these stories begin with outfits like Media Matters for America (run by the insane paranoic David Brock). I'd bet a dollar that nearly every journalist is on MMA's email list.
The journalists are ideologically aligned with MMA, so they do not apply scrutiny to MMA's claims.
I have also seen it where they claim that Scalise is still guilty because he knows the guy who rented the room that was used for both events.
There are people who make a living helping to organize events for whatever clients they can find. I do not know if this guy is one of them, but it does seem to get a little out there if a politician should be required to resign because he knows a guy who once provided a service for an unsavory client, even though the service itself was quite innocuous.
If this is going to be the rule, what are we going to do for politicians after they all have resigned? After all, we do need somebody to serve in these positions; it says so right in the Constitution!
garage mahal wrote:
Bu bu but what about ________ ??!?!?!!!
Yes, but what about?
So, apparently associations matter. In this case there was no association, and it was a left wing hatchet job. But your'e right associations matter. So what about Ayers, what about Wright? Hmmmmm?
Two wrongs make a right? Or in this case, a Wright.
Associations are only bad when the republicans have them
It seems that roughly half the population believes as such while the other half thinks that associations are only bad when democrats have them.
Fuck all of you assholes. This is just another example of how evil and hypocritical you partisans pricks really are.
Al Sharpton is the black David Duke, except with a higher body count. The President seems able to get away with associating with him as well as taking advice from him. Fuck racist leftist double standards.
Garage, if in fact he didn't speak to this group, then how about some commentary on the left wing hatchet job that appears to have taken place. Cat got your tongue?
madisonfella: "Two wrongs make a right?"
What was the "wrong" that Scalise committed again?
Take your time with this. I know it's a struggle for you.
Except, we are now learning that he actually didn't address a White supremacist group
And Trayon Martin wasn't even carrying Skittles! And the police in Ferguson never had any racial problems in the past!! And Obama was born in Kenya!!!
Yeah, we can "learn" a lot from Fox News.
Anyways, tell me again how you don't talk about "first world problems" I still remember how you scolded folks for discussing such things.
madisonfella: "Fuck all of you assholes."
Powerful.
Compelling.
Persuasive.
Illuminating.
madisonfella wrote:
It seems that roughly half the population believes as such while the other half thinks that associations are only bad when democrats have them.
Fuck all of you assholes. This is just another example of how evil and hypocritical you partisans pricks really are.
I don't want to hear liberals lecture republicans on associations suddenly mattering again.
madisonfella: "And Trayon Martin wasn't even carrying Skittles! And the police in Ferguson never had any racial problems in the past!! And Obama was born in Kenya!!"
Ah, I see you've jumped immediately to the "everything else and the kitchen sink" tactic to avoid addressing the reality that you've fallen for another leftwing political hoax.
I don't blame you. If you didn't double/triple down on the lie you'd have to admit it was all BS.
Curious Drago said: What was the "wrong" that Scalise committed again?"
"associating with David Duke is grossly unwise" -Greta Van Susteren
If Scalise didn't speak to the group, then why did he apologize for speaking to the group?
Take your time, think about it for a bit, and then come back with one of your usual retorts where you call me a girl.
jr565: "Garage, if in fact he didn't speak to this group, then how about some commentary on the left wing hatchet job that appears to have taken place. Cat got your tongue?"
Garage and madisonfella didn't realize until just now that this story has been debunked.
They still think that Rather's forged TANG documents were actually real instead of just fake but accurate.
"And Trayon Martin wasn't even carrying Skittles! And the police in Ferguson never had any racial problems in the past!! And Obama was born in Kenya!!!
Yeah, we can "learn" a lot from Fox News."
None of this was reported as fact by Fox.
You believe your own lies, Madisonfella.
madisonfella wrote:
"associating with David Duke is grossly unwise" -Greta Van Susteren
If Scalise didn't speak to the group, then why did he apologize for speaking to the group?
Take your time, think about it for a bit, and then come back with one of your usual retorts where you call me a girl.
quite simply because he didn't speak to the group. Someone then brought up that he spoke in front of a group he never heard of 12 years prior which he doesn't have records of, and he says "I don't really have a recollection of this but if I did I apologize".
He apologized for something becadause he's going by the idea that those telling the story are being truthful and he generally doesn't know.
And he doesn't know because it never happened.
So, how about apologies from your side for getting the facts wrong?
madisonfella: "If Scalise didn't speak to the group, then why did he apologize for speaking to the group?"
He made a mistake. It's now been established that he spoke to a civic group hours prior to the Duke group meeting at the same venue.
Now explain to us all how obama spent 20 years in Rev Wright's church but never heard anything negative spouted by Wright.
Tuesday afternoon, House Majority Whip Steve Scalise, R-Louisiana, issued a statement apologizing for his appearance twelve years ago at a white supremacist event
If he didn't appear at the event, then why did he apologize for his appearance?
House Speaker John Boehner released a statement supporting Scalise. "More than a decade ago, Representative Scalise made an error in judgment, and he was right to acknowledge it was wrong and inappropriate
If he didn't speak at the event, then what "error in judgement" is Boehner referring to? What exactly did Scalise do that was wrong and inappropriate?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/scalise-apologizes-for-appearance-at-2002-white-supremacist-event/
To me, the salient point here is that Scalise, when confronted with evidence that he'd spoken to EURO, immediately apologized. Later information that he never spoke to EURO at all is fatally damaged by Scalise's (as he thought) immediate, forthright admission of wrongdoing. That the thing never actually happened, and that therefore he has nothing whatsoever to apologize for, simply didn't occur to the dude. Too late; damage already done. But obviously the guy has no recollection of the event whatsoever. Why should he?
I would love to know exactly how this (whatever it is!) came to light 12-plus years after the fact. Is it just that if you sic enough college-student "researchers" on every prominent Republican, stuff will inevitably turn up?
Of course, Scalise spoke before a racist group meeting. Two-and-a-half hours before a racist group meeting. -CP
I love how madisonfella uses Greta Van Sustren's comment instead of the actual quote from Scalise to undermine Scalise.
Gee madisonfella, you didn't even use the word "alleged" for your accusation.
You simply bought it hook, line and sinker.
'cuz "republican".
There must be some common MSM style guide prescribing that any white interest group be described as "supremacist", regardless of stated aims, though non-white interest groups must never be described as such, regardless of stated aims. Politicians may speak to non-white racist and supremacist groups without fear of censure.
But I don't really have much sympathy for politicians who won't push back and ask why it's worse to be associated with marginalized white racists who don't get any tax money, than with big league influential non-white racists who openly vilify, while extorting millions from, whites.
madisonfella: "If he didn't speak at the event, then what "error in judgement" is Boehner referring to? What exactly did Scalise do that was wrong and inappropriate?"
Asked and answered.
jr565 at 4:27 already addressed this.
Is this the part where you and garage keep "forgetting" that this story has been debunked?
Garage and madisonfella didn't realize until just now that this story has been debunked
Does Scalise know you have debunked it? Because he still says he was there and made the speech:
"In a statement released Tuesday afternoon, Scalise called his appearance before the European-American Unity and Rights Organization (EURO) — an extremist group founded by former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke — a “mistake I regret” and added that he rejected the organization’s racist ideology."
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/steve-scalise-white-supremacy-group-reaction-113872.html#ixzz3NtWowlP2
It would be helpful if madisonfella and garage would let us know what the latest leftist rule for conservatives/republicans is for use of venues by less savory types.
Is the rule 24 hours? More? Less? And why?
If Scalise didn't speak to the group, then why did he apologize for speaking to the group?
Because we now live in a world in which people are expected to respond instantly to questions about what they may have done or who they may have spoken to 12 years ago and anyone who doesn't have instantaneous total recall risks being accused of "lying" if anything they say turns out to be incorrect. So Scalise said he didn't remember speaking to them (and all of the facts indicate he spoke to a different group two and a hours earlier at the same hotel) but to cover his bases said that if he had spoken to them it would have been an error in judgment and that he didn't agree with their views.
Anyways, tell me again how you don't talk about "first world problems" I still remember how you scolded folks for discussing such things.
Just in case I'm the first to tell you (which I seriously doubt):
1) You are not nearly as funny as you think you are.
2) Constantly repeating something that might be called clever once is merely irritating when repeated.
By the way, Lefty lying and MSM rolling over for it is hardly a first world problem. It is the first tactic in your playbook all over the world.
Dumping Scalise would offend all Neo-nazis, and Neo-nazis are an important GOP constituency, especially in the South.
Boehner had no choice but to stick with him.
I'd add that the This Week roundtable was hopeless on this. Van Susteren and Tavis Smiley both opined that the GOP should've instantly ditched Scalise from his, what? No. 3 spot in the Party, that a mere apology didn't cut it. Sheesh, the man doesn't even know what he's supposed to have done, but groveling isn't sufficient for whatever-it-is; he must lose his job as well.
Not that I'm terribly worried about the man's prospects, but eventually there really be more people beneath the bus than on it.
Thorley, your response is pointless as garage and madisonfella are incapable of moving off their initial lefty talking points.
Again, there is no question that madisonfella and garage still believe Bush was AWOL from his Air National Guard unit, that GHWBush hopped an SR-71 to collude with the Iranians to hold Americans hostage until after Reagan was elected, etc.
It is funny how the extremists are shouting at the top of their lungs that this entire incident has been "debunked" while the man involved as well as his allies are repeatedly apologizing for making the speech to this racist group.
Next up: Drago will tell us that there is nothing at all racist with David Duke and his group.
madisonfella he said he didn't know it was a racial group that backed David Duke. And that's because who he spoke with was in fact in error.
He's apologizing for a mistake that didn't in fact happen. Because some liberal reporter dredged up some obscure meeting he attended and insinuated that he spoke before a group that backs David Duke.
If you are put in the situation you will apologize for it. Simply because a reporter is presenting you with 'facts" that you can't verify but which he is saying are true.
That Scalise immediately felt regret at the possibility that he spoke to white supremacists doesn't mean he did anything wrong. Sounds to me like Scalise, like lots of state legislators, was sort of careless about his schedule and did not know all the groups he was speaking to on the campaign trail.
"Next up: Drago will tell us that there is nothing at all racist with David Duke and his group."
Sure there is. But it has nothing to do with Scalise.
bbkingfish: "Dumping Scalise would offend all Neo-nazis, and Neo-nazis are an important GOP constituency, especially in the South"
Clearly.
No question.
Especially given the status of Nikki Haley, Tim Scott and Jindal.
Those republican southern neo-nazi's are so clever they are electing republicans of color!
It's positively diabolical!
Great analysis bbkingfish! I'll bet you get rave reviews at the local coffee house!
Keep up the solid work.
"we need to have the guy who tried passing it off as real give a serious mea culpa and be forced to step down for such a blatant attempt at character assassination."
What you mean "we" white man ?
Are you serious ?
madisonfella,
It is funny how the extremists are shouting at the top of their lungs that this entire incident has been "debunked" while the man involved as well as his allies are repeatedly apologizing for making the speech to this racist group.
Yes, it is funny, in the tragicomic sense. The man was so desperate to give no hint of anything but immediate self-abasement that he apologized for something that didn't happen, and now he's unhappily pinned himself to the story even as the story itself has completely fallen apart. Don't tell me you can't see this scenario unfolding.
madisonfella: "Next up: Drago will tell us that there is nothing at all racist with David Duke and his group."
We get it madisonfella. When your assertions are shown to be BS just keep lobbing new stuff out there.
Something is bound to stick!
MDT: "Yes, it is funny, in the tragicomic sense. The man was so desperate to give no hint of anything but immediate self-abasement that he apologized for something that didn't happen, and now he's unhappily pinned himself to the story even as the story itself has completely fallen apart"
Precisely.
The fact that a republican who is experienced with Washington could fall so easily into the msm trap set for him is all the evidence I would need to say he is certainly too naive to have any leadership role.
there is no question that madisonfella and garage still believe Bush was AWOL from his Air National Guard unit, that GHWBush hopped an SR-71 to collude with the Iranians to hold Americans hostage until after Reagan was elected, etc.
I never said nor implied any such thing. Making up lies seems to be a habit of yours.
Everybody on TV and the blogs have their stomachs full and their brains on vacation.
Krauthammer & Co. also asked "why did he apologize then?"
Simply because he got hit with something from 12 years ago, and he probably had a note that he was at that hotel and spoke to somebody that day, though he could not remember exactly who. So he said so and added that if it was David Duke's meeting, he would apologize, but if so he had not known it at the time, or he would not have spoken there.
Boehner & Co. have gone from that and assumed that it happened, but it was just a careless mistake.
(This is a busy time for the leadership, but they really need to do better than that for Mr. Scalise, now that we know what happened.)
"And Trayon Martin wasn't even carrying Skittles!"
Skittles are an ingredient in "Purple Drank" also known as "Lean" as it was also called. He asked the clerk in the 7/11 for cough syrup but it was kept behind the counter because so many black kids were using it.
The video from the surveillance camera was edited by ABC.
for madisonfella:
"According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which classifies EURO as a white nationalist group, the organization was founded by former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke.
In an interview with the New Orleans Times-Picayune, Scalise, whose position makes him the third highest-ranking Republican in the House, said that at the time of his speech, he had no idea the group was associated with Duke, and had he known, he never would have appeared before them.
Scalise said that at the time, he was campaigning against the Stelly tax plan, which increased income tax in Louisiana.
He told the Times-Picayune:
"I don't have any records from back in 2002, but when people called and asked me to speak to groups, I went and spoke to groups. It was myself and [former state Sen.] James David Cain who were opposed to the Stelly tax plan
"I was the only legislator from the New Orleans area who was opposed to the plan publicly, so I was asked to speak all around the New Orleans region. I would go and speak about how this tax plan was bad."
At the time, Scalise said, he didn't have a scheduler or the benefit of Google.
He went on:
"If I knew today what they were about, I wouldn't go. My staff, they are able to vet organizations. We turn down requests from organizations we don't approve of.
"Now, I still go speak to people who don't think like me. I'll go speak to liberal groups a lot. But a group like this? I would not go to speak to. They don't share my values.
"You can talk to [New Orleans U.S. Rep.] Cedric Richmond. ... He knows what kind of person I am.
"It's insulting and offensive for anybody to insinuate that I would affiliate with a group like that."
http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/npr/373955103/rep-steve-scalise-i-went-and-spoke-to-any-group-that-called
See, madisonfella, he doesn't know the organization. And he has no record of speaking to it. He is going by the assumption that he did because the media just jumped out and said they have proof that he did.
And he's saying that he was speaking to tons of groups and wouldn't have spoken to them if he knew they were associated with Duke.
In the interim , what has he done suggesting that he is some white Supremacist?
madisonfella: "I never said nor implied any such thing. Making up lies seems to be a habit of yours"
Madisonfella takes time out from making up lies to accuse others of making up lies.
tsk tsk.
The "it has been debunked" claim has been debunked.
"Scalise on Monday told NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune that he didn't realize he was speaking a conference of white nationalists, and that his staff hadn't vetted EURO as he -- a state representative at the time - spoke around the state against a tax proposal in the Louisiana Legislature.
"One of the many groups that I spoke to regarding this critical legislation was a group whose views I wholeheartedly condemn," Scalise said in his Tuesday statement, referring to Duke's group."
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/12/steve_scalise_apologizes_gets.html
He admits he did speak to the group, but he blames his staff for not vetting the group.
Boehner & Co. have gone from that and assumed that it happened
Which is one of the biggest reasons some of us on the Right have a problem with Boehner. He's scared of the media and cozy with Washington D.C..
Madisonfella takes time out from making up lies to accuse others of making up lies
You've been forced to believe that I am lying.
Do you have sort of links to back up these claims you're make about me or are you just lobbing new stuff out there and hoping that something is bound to stick?
I do not agree that Al Sharpton is "the Black David Duke."
As far as I know, David Duke has not caused any actual damage beyond making a spectacle of himself with odious statements. He is a nobody.
Al Sharpton, I think is "the Black George Wallace." He does not himself believe what he says, but goes on with purely for money and power.
And people are not only getting hurt, but also getting killed brcause of his actions.
And he gets invited to White House black-tie dinners with a bimbo on his arm.
@madisonfella:
You keep quoting stories from before the incident was debunked as proof that the story wasn't debunked.
How about you try quoting a story that was written after the incident was debunked?
Then you can tell us how giving a speech in front of a group of strangers who happen to be racist is worse than attending the church of a racist preacher every Sunday for years.
madisonfella: "You've been forced to believe that I am lying"
Oh, you're back to that are you?
I would have thought you would have learned your lesson from before regarding that particular rhetorical tactic.
Of course, it is possible that you are not the same person posting as madisonfella as last time.
Shift work, is it?
Gahrie: "@madisonfella:
You keep quoting stories from before the incident was debunked as proof that the story wasn't debunked"
Yep.
Expect more of that.
I would have thought you would have learned your lesson from before regarding that particular rhetorical tactic.
LOL!! You STILL didn't read the link from where I lifted that phrase, did you?
And you really think you taught me some sort of "lesson" over that? Really full of yourself, aren't you?
And Barbara Lee (D) Berkeley spoke before a Communist group--easy enough to do in Berkeley. She probably also spoke to a Black Panther group--easy enough to do in Berkeley or in adjacent Oakland. They are her constituents after all.
And aside from Robert Byrd, liberal icon Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black was in the Klan in his early days. And in those early days the hotbed of Klan activity was in Indiana. So I suspect some 1920's era Indiana Senators were either "active under the white sheets" or sure as shootin' had spoken to Klan groups.
The point is--who cares? This Scalise kerfuffle is just so much more liberal crapola. As for Scalise "apologizing" for speaking to his constituents at some meeting 12 years or so ago, he was responding to a sort of "when did you stop beating your wife" question.
madisonfella: "LOL!! You STILL didn't read the link from where I lifted that phrase, did you?"
What link?
Are you imagining things again?
You do that alot.
How about you try quoting a story that was written after the incident was debunked?
If the incident is ever debunked, then I shall be happy to do so. Unfortunate for you, one report from one conservative newspaper does not a debunking make.
Especially when the man himself says he did speak in front of the group and is apologizing for doing so.
madisonfella, perhaps your "link" is next to all the "simple easy questions" garage was demanding answers to related to Ferguson that he, well, "forgot" to actually ask.
madisonfella wrote:
He admits he did speak to the group, but he blames his staff for not vetting the group.
and he further says he didn't have good records from 2002 and spoke to lots of groups about tax proposals. So he's assuming that he spoke to the group because the reporter said he did. And he doesn't have records from then to disprove.
What link?
The link that Althouse provided in the original blog post where I first used that phrase. You attacked me in that thread as well and it was pointed out that obviously you didn't read the link.
Speaking of attacking me, can't help but notice you have very little to say about the issue and instead prefer to to talk about the people who are talking about the issues. Seems to be a pattern for you and sure hope you aren't expecting me to pay any rent for living in your head all this time.
madisonfella,
He admits he did speak to the group, but he blames his staff for not vetting the group.
Oh, please. He has no memory of the incident whatsoever. People told him, confidently, that he spoke to a David Duke front organization, so naturally he believes them. What else can he say but that he's very, very sorry? Even if it didn't actually, y'know, happen or anything. For all he knows, the Jefferson Heights Civic Association is just as bad.
madisonfella: "Do you have sort of links to back up these claims you're make about me.."
You could start by posting links to fox news stories that assert what you claim they asserted.
madisonfella (@4:19pm): "And Trayon Martin wasn't even carrying Skittles! And the police in Ferguson never had any racial problems in the past!! And Obama was born in Kenya!!!
Yeah, we can "learn" a lot from Fox News."
We'll wait.
madisonfella: "Speaking of attacking me, can't help but notice you have very little to say about the issue and instead prefer to to talk about the people who are talking about the issues."
What remains to be said?
There is no point in my reiterating what MDT and jr565 and others have already posted which provide Scalise's actual quotes and context which shows you are full of beans.
You've already made it plain that short of a NYT editorial taking it all back you won't believe/accept any contradictory information.
Yours is a doctrinaire position and not one you can be "reasoned" out of.
So why try?
Fuck all of you assholes. This is just another example of how evil and hypocritical you partisans pricks really are.
Folks, let's not feed the trolls. Let him wither away, alone and embittered in a cold, dark room.
From your link madisoncreep:
"on December 30, 2014 at 9:00 PM, updated December 31, 2014 at 1:43 AM"
The day the story broke"
"By Robert Costa December 30, 2014 "
The debunking was the next day:
What a liar you are madisoncreep.
Again according to the corrupt liberal mind, the facts are wrong but the story is correct.
Folks, let's not feed the trolls. Let him wither away, alone and embittered in a cold, dark room
You're right. I need to just ignore Curious Drago in Vermont, no matter what name he logs in under or what kind of total bullshit he makes up about other people. He has made it very clear that he is only here to attack others while offering nothing else to the discussion.
Thanks for the reminder. I'll try and keep your advice in mind from here on out.
It was shopped to the press by Gilda Lerner Reed:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/steve-scalise-white-nationalist-speech-backstory
Gilda is a dem operative who tried to save Landrieu's campaign before she was trounced thoroughly in the last election. So, it's not like she's exactly non partisan here.
""It's he-said, she-said. That's why the story has never been reported," Gilda, a said. "Everybody down here, everybody in this district ... they know that there are ties. It's no secret. In fact that wins you more votes. That's what (Scalise) ran on."
I wonder who the she is. Is she Gilda perhaps? is that what she said. And everybody knows. so then how about some corroborating proof about what everyone knows?
"The source told them a photograph of Scalise appearing at an event hosted by the European-American Unity and Rights Organization existed."
Oh, so there's a photo? How come no one has brought the photo forward? Who is this source?
Then there's this tidbit:
There was more damning information against Scalise, Robert (her son and campaign manager) said, but his mother refused to go negative or use any of it in their campaign. "I desperately wanted to use it," Robert, who was her campaign manager, told TPM.
The state and national Democratic parties didn't heavily invest in the race, and Scalise beat Gilda, 75 percent to 23 percent, in the May 3, 2008, election."
So there was proof that he was at this meeting but she refused to use it, even though she was in an election with Scalise and he trounced her 75 to 23 percent.
And then there's this:
"From their accounts to TPM, Robert shared the general information — that Scalise had spoken at the event of the Duke-backed group — but could not offer any more substantive evidence. The source apparently deleted the implicating photograph or otherwise could not recover it. White never spoke directly with the source; the Reeds served as a go-between.
So theres a photograph that no one can produce and they never even spoke to the source.
Beucase there's no there there.
Red state puts it this way:
Source: I got a good one on a Republican Congressman!
Blogger: I’m always up for that. What do you have?
S: Turns out he was at a white power convention!
B: Ooh.
S: Yeah, I know, right?
B: Tell me you have video.
S: …Umm. No.
B: Dude! You gotta have a camera at these things! Everybody has them.
S: Well, it was from 2002.
B: OK, fair enough. What did the transcript of his speech say?
S: …There isn’t a transcript.
B: He gave a speech and there was no transcript? Wait, was he even a Congressman then?
S: State legislator.
B: OK, we can still work with it. But he was a speaker, right?
S: Yeah!
B: Was he on the program?
S: —
B: There’s going to be a program. :sigh: Is there at least a photo?
S: Well, no.
B: So how do you know that he was at this thing?
S: A guy told us! He said he had a photo. He never gave it to us.
B: Okaaay… How do I get in touch with this guy?
S: You can’t."
That is the basis of the report. We don't know he was there, we don't know what he said, the guy who does know wont speak to the blogger and has a photo that he wont produce. And the person telling the blogger this is the guy who ran against Scalise.
Ok then.
It would be fascinating to find out the origins of this story. Twelve years pass, the guy runs for senator, wins, and suddenly this story appears.
Who started spreading the lie? Where did they get their information from?
This is what made Rather a laughing stock from the fallout of the TANG story. The Rather/Mapes story started with a guy with a personal grudge against Bush. This guy claimed the juicy paperwork was given to him by a person whose name he didn't know, and the doc transfer was unwittnessed. He later said he had burned the original Bush TANG docs.
Red flags all over the place, but Rather and Mapes were driven by ideological hatred of Bush. They stopped being journalists and started being Democrat operatives.
madisonfella: "He has made it very clear that he is only here to attack others while offering nothing else to the discussion."
I'll take that as an admission on your part that you were lying about Fox News regarding your false assertions re: skittles, Ferguson and Obama.
Otherwise you would have produced the links to prove your assertions.
Since you have now been shown to be a liar in this very thread, I am not required to provide any further examples of your lying to validate my observation of you as a liar.
Terry,
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/steve-scalise-white-nationalist-speech-backstory
That's who passed the story off. Gilda Reed and her Son.
Terry: " He later said he had burned the original Bush TANG docs.
Red flags all over the place, but Rather and Mapes were driven by ideological hatred of Bush. They stopped being journalists and started being Democrat operatives."
At this point, given what we know, there is no reason to believe that Rather and Mapes did not explicitly solicit the production of these forgeries.
And to think that this effort, if launched just a few election cycles prior to 2004 would have "worked" in that it could not have been debunked quickly enough to mitigate potential electoral disaster.
"Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich defends House Majority Whip Steve Scalise after it was reported that Scalise once spoke before a white supremacist group."
This was the sub-head. That is an awful lot of weight for the passive voice to carry. This is CBS news. Don't they have editors?
Maybe CBS can make up for it with headline -- every bit as true as the Scalise headline:
"Hillary silent after it was reported that Bill Clinton visited island where under age girl sex slaves serviced powerful politicians".
Check your f*cking facts media. If the sole basis is a guy who says he was there but wont reveal himself or the photo and the blogger only hears about it 2nd hand 12 years after the fact, from the person who ran against him, who herself never spoke with the source, MAYBE YOU SHOULD WAIT A BIT ON PRINTING IT TILL YOU CORROBORATE.
jr565: "...MAYBE YOU SHOULD WAIT A BIT ON PRINTING IT TILL YOU CORROBORATE."
There's alot of madisonfella's working in the msm so no real need to check the validity of this type of claim.
It's not even necessary to offer up an "allegedly".
The story was, in fact, "too good to check".
Drago-
Maybe Rather and Mapes had certain knowledge that the docs were forgeries, maybe not. I've always had fun imagining the blood draining from Rather's face when Burkett told him that he had burned the originals. When ace reporter -- and Texan! -- Rather heard that single, daming admission, he must have instantly realized that he had been played.
Terry: "When ace reporter -- and Texan! -- Rather heard that single, daming admission, he must have instantly realized that he had been played."
There is no way Rather didn't already know that.
No way possible.
He had been around far too long and done far to much to not have had the ducks for this one lined up early on. He let Mapes take the big fall but he knew the truth early on.
Rather also knew that if his little ploy proved successful it wouldn't matter if the blowback hit after the election. His elevation to iconic lefty reporter would have been assured.
In fact, given garage's and madisonfella's example, if Rather had taken down Bush with a lie that would only have made the lefty base love him that much more.
" if launched just a few election cycles prior to 2004"
Linda Sanchez (her maiden name) was elected to the former district of Bob Dornan in 1997 with about 400 vote margin, most of which was voting by illegals who had come into the district in the 90s. The Republican committee complained and was caused of racism.
The 46th had always had a Democratic tilt, but became even more Democratic after the 1990 census when it received a considerably larger number of Hispanics than had previously been in the district. Sanchez won by 984 votes, and Dornan contested the election, alleging that many votes were cast by people who were not American citizens. A Congressional investigation found evidence that 624 votes were indeed cast by non-citizens. An additional 124 votes had already been thrown out by California officials. These votes were not enough to throw Sanchez's victory into doubt
Senator Coleman MN could not be reached for comment about vote fraud.
For the leftist hacks and appoligists cranking the stupid meter past ten to spin this. Pinning their hopes on the on the spot apology by Scalise, on something that happened 12+ years ago.
Ponder
Why did President Obama fire Shirley Sherrod?
If the leftist didn't have double standards they would have none at all.
madisonfella has clearly taken a short break for some feverish google-ing in order to find the snippets she needs to buttress her claims regarding skittles, Ferguson and Obama that she claimed Fox News had made.
They aren't there of course, so an out of context Soros-funded Media Matters snippet or two will most certainly have to do.
I'll take that as an admission on your part that you were lying about Fox News regarding your false assertions re: skittles, Ferguson and Obama.
You've been forced to believe that I asserted anything of the sort. You really should learn to read better.
And I am STILL waiting for a link where I made any sort of comments regarding Dan Rather and Bush. Based on the rules you try to impose upon others, failure to produce means you were lying about it.
madisonfella (@6pm): "You've been forced to believe that I asserted anything of the sort. You really should learn to read better"
madionfella (@4:19pm): "And Trayon Martin wasn't even carrying Skittles! And the police in Ferguson never had any racial problems in the past!! And Obama was born in Kenya!!!
Yeah, we can "learn" a lot from Fox News."
I guess you just "forgot" that you posted that.
Now that you have been reminded, feel free to post the links from Fox News that support your silly claims.
madisonfella has clearly taken a short break
Can't stop obsessing about me, can you? It's really funny how you are constantly trying to drive out any dissenting voice from this echo chamber, yet you whine and complain when five minutes goes by and you don't have a whipping boy to take out all of your frustrations on.
You're a sick weirdo, no matter what name you are logging in under. And I really should take Big Mike's advice.
First, it was people for the abortion of unwanted animals, and parading cuts of women to establish equivalence. Then, it was Democrats, and their various race, gender, orientation, and class factions casting false aspersions, again.
Are we in a fundraising period, or is this another media propagated distraction?
Where in the world is Obama, what foreign leaders is he assassinating, what regimes is he changing, and how many more trillions will he spend before breaking the American and dependent economies?
Al Sharpton is far worse than Wright. He's not just a vicious bigot but also a criminal, indirectly caused death and destruction, and never held an actual job. Obama should not get a pass for elevating that guy.
Though the real distinction to me is "meeting" with someone versus tacitly endorsing them. I have no problem with a politician just meeting with David Duke (or Sharpton) but am more interested in why they met, and what was discussed. Not every meeting is an endorsement, though it is a recognition of that persons importance for better or worse.
madisonfella (@6:07pm): "blah blah blah"
It would simply be easier for you to admit that "Fox News" did not claim that Martin did not buy skittles, that racism was never an issue in the Ferguson PD and that Obama was born in Kenya.
n.n.: "Are we in a fundraising period, or is this another media propagated distraction?"
Why can't it be both?
In addition to battlespace prep for the Dems in 2016.
madisonfella: "Can't stop obsessing about me, can you?"
I "obsess" about you in the same way that I "obsess" about someone asserting that 2+2=47.
I'm probably going to make it a point to note how incorrect that assertion happens to be.
I guess you just "forgot" that you posted that
Guess you forgot how to read, because nowhere in that comment did I say Fox News reported such things rather people have learned such views from them.
Case in point: You've never actually said you're a sicko weirdo who obsess over other people and make up lies about them, tho we can learn that about you from what you say.
And again, going by the rules you try to impose upon others, you've admitted you're a liar. Own it.
For the love of God, can we get some intelligent, honest liberals on this site!? I am so tired of the unending, willfully lies regurgitated by the likes of madisonfella (er, Inga) and Garage. Surely there are some out there who are not transparent hacks, right?
LOL
It's come to this:
madisonfella: "Guess you forgot how to read, because nowhere in that comment did I say Fox News reported such things rather people have learned such views from them."
Yes.
She actually wrote that.
I have no problem with a politician just meeting with David Duke
I don't think anyone is saying Scalise actually met with David Duke.
Kind of expected someone else to point out this mistake after he bragged about his self-imposed role on this blog but it looks like He-With-Many-Names is too busy with childish taunts (like calling me a girl) and is going to turn a blind eye to that comment.
madisonfella,
"Guess you forgot how to read, because nowhere in that comment did I say Fox News reported such things rather people have learned such views from them."
Oooo...kay. "People" have "learned" things from Fox, which has never "reported" any of the things "learned." Please, madisonfella, explain how such learning is supposed to take place. How do they do it? How do they (Fox) get people to believe things that Fox never itself presents, even by accident?
Is it patented, this formula? Because if it isn't, I'd sure like to use it myself. We've an underfunded orchestra here, and a formula that makes people mindlessly shell out for whatever you like would be kind of handy.
madisonfella,
[B]ut it looks like He-With-Many-Names is too busy with childish taunts (like calling me a girl) and is going to turn a blind eye to that comment.
You are "madisonfella," and despite the gendering of "fella," there's no particular reason to think you're of one gender more than another. But it's interesting that you think "calling [you] a girl" is a slur.
As a matter of fact, Drago didn't call you a girl; s/he (see? not so difficult) called you a person of feminine gender. If you think that's an insult, so be it.
Please, madisonfella, explain how such learning is supposed to take place
If you read what I actually wrote, rather than what Curious Drago selectively quoted, it is quite obvious how such things can happen.
This might help clear up your confusion:
In one study, researchers asked panelists where they obtained their televised news about national and international affairs. Roughly one-quarter of respondents indicated that they received their information from Fox News. At the time of the study, questions of Obama’s birth were being raised. When asked if they believed Obama was born in the United States, only 21 percent of Fox viewers said that Obama was American born. The authors of the study, Michael Tesler and David O. Sears, wrote, “[T]he reinforcing and/or persuasive role of oppositional media outlets like Fox News and conservative talk radio could make it increasingly difficult to disabuse the sizable minority of individuals disposed to accepting invalid assertions designed to paint Obama as the ‘other.’” In the face of such evidence, many Fox apologists, commentators, and guests often defended the views of Birthers and Tea Party activists. While frequent Fox talking head Ann Coulter claimed that that no one on Fox ever mentioned “Birtherism,” research indicates that not only did Fox News mention it; they ramped up coverage of the Birthers leading up to the April 2011 release of the “long form” birth certificate. Moreover, at least 85 percent (forty-four out of fifty-two) of false claims about Obama’s birth went unchallenged on Fox News. Fox segments repeated that Obama never produced a birth certificate, that Obama’s grandmother said he was born in Kenya, and that Obama spent $2 million in legal funds blocking the release of his birth certificate.
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/17/fox_news_divisive_race_strategy_how_oreilly_hannity_and_coulter_intentionally_tore_america_apart/
In regards to your orchestra, you can easily paint the picture that your group is in need of additional funding (cutting back programs, laying off paid employees, raising prices, etc) without actually issuing a press release that says "We need more money and we need it now"
You are "madisonfella," and despite the gendering of "fella," there's no particular reason to think you're of one gender more than another.
I've repeatedly told Drago (and his many names) that I'm a guy.
And yes, it is obvious he is trying to put me down by constantly calling me Inga, or Penguin, or Shortbus, or the other little nicknames he has for me. You think he is doing so out of kindness?
Salon quotes "one study" with no link and absolutely no information about sample size or selection methods, and that proves . . . nothing whatsoever, though madisonfella seems to think we'll be impressed.
The second sentence of the Salon article begins "A common ploy is the insinuation that the 'mainstream' news establishment is in fact biased in favor of liberal ideological framings of issues". Does Salon - or madisonfella - know just how lopsided the political leanings of "mainstream" news employees are? Do they care? That the "mainstream" media leans way left is a simple fact, and it is hardly a "ploy" to point that out, or insinuate it. The Salon article is simply worthless as evidence of anything worth knowing.
madisonfella: "I've repeatedly told Drago (and his many names) that I'm a guy."
You have never told me you were a guy.
Ever.
Feel free to post a link to any comment in any thread where I was participating that you told me that.
madisonfella continues: "And yes, it is obvious he is trying to put me down by constantly calling me Inga, or Penguin, or Shortbus, or the other little nicknames he has for me. You think he is doing so out of kindness?"
I am not the one who calls you Inga, or Penguin or Shortbus.
Feel free to post any links to any threads where I am participating where I did so.
We'll wait.
Inga you fat old cunt, shut the fuck up.
It is one of the great mysteries of the existence of a God that Stuart Scott is dead and worthless gutter trash like you still alive. I hope the obesity and alcohol related health ailments come swiftly for you. This blog and the world will be a much better place for it.
What is amusing hearing madisonfella complain about non-actions on my part (sound familiar?) is that madisonfella ROUTINELY lumps my name in with Tim in Vermont and Curious George amongst others.
So, to summarize: madisonfella falsely accuses me of doing that which he/she does routinely.
Now that sounds very familiar.
It's almost as though madisonfellas media consumption has led her/him to believe that it is ok to believe things about me which are demonstrably false.
Ooooph!
Isn't that the very point madisonfella was attempting to make re: Fox News?
Why yes, yes it was.
Gee, it's almost like madisonfella is taking every single one of his/her psychoses/neuroses and projecting them onto others.
I actually think Scalise should resign his office in shame.
Not because he actually met with some unapproved group that some find offensive.
No. Because if this were a story about a tea party, conservative Republican, he would be the first to call for their resignation. He and Boehner and their ilk would see an opportunity to destroy a political for and they would join with the liberal Demicrats called journalists to help destroy this individual. All the while pretending to be hurt and sad about it.
Screw these guys.
I take it back.
I did refer to madisonfella as madisonfella/Inga in a thread last June AFTER madisonfella accused me of being a Birkel sockpuppet.
So there.
Madisonfella,
Please stop before you have a breakdown. I don't agree with your politics, but I don't want to view an on-line meltdown. I see enough of that in my practice.
@Drago, why are you feeding the troll? Do you think it cares about facts and reason? It's only trying to keep you from analyzing facts and exercising your reasoning ability.
Don't let it succeed.
Francisco D: "Please stop before you have a breakdown. I don't agree with your politics, but I don't want to view an on-line meltdown. I see enough of that in my practice"
Francisco, are you a practicing psychiatrist or psychologist?
If so, what are you thoughts regarding madisonfella's post at 7:08pm? I'd be interested in your take.
Big Mike: "@Drago, why are you feeding the troll? Do you think it cares about facts and reason? It's only trying to keep you from analyzing facts and exercising your reasoning ability"
There's nothing left to analyze in this circumstance.
We have a political hit with zero (perhaps negative) evidence and Scalise's reaction and subsequent comments have been fully explored.
It's all very straightforward at this point.
This thread is a good illustration of why we need to bring back dueling. It's obvious that garage and madisonfella are enthusiastically bearing false witness against an innocent man. In the old days there would be a nontrivial chance that someone with integrity would call them out on their lies, and put their lives on the line.
There was logic to that arrangement. Good people are often willing to put their lives on the line for the truth; few people were willing to risk their lives for a lie. And so they were careful about saying such things.
It would be a better world if craven little cowardly curs like garage and madisonfella got to cringe in fright whenever better men... men with integrity... walked into the room
I can't believe that this thread is still going on !
Madisoncreep (notice no implied gender ?) let it go !
Please ! Think of the electrons and pixels that are dying because you won't shut the fuck up !
"This thread is a good illustration of why we need to bring back dueling. It's obvious that garage and madisonfella are enthusiastically bearing false witness against an innocent man. "
My one comment 5 hours ago warrants a duel?
garage: "My one comment 5 hours ago warrants a duel?"
Two ways to go with this garage.
1) Mark it up as a superior "quality vs quantity" ratio type of remark.
2) Harrumph a little bit and say "you and what army?"
Scalise didn't speak to EURO, he spoke to the Jefferson Heights Civic Association who had their event at the same hotel two and a half hours before the EURO event even began."
[EURO] Ideology
"The statement of principles sets out eight main goals for the organization, which are as follows:
- Equal rights for White Americans, particularly through an end to affirmative action.
- An end to desegregation busing, which they blame for declining educational standards, increased racial tension, and the wasting of public money.
- Welfare reform that would see welfare recipients made to work for their money, and the encouragement of family planning.
- Tougher sentencing for violent crime, alongside the repealing of hate crime legislation.
- Very strict limitations on immigration.
- An end to media portrayal of whites as oppressors.
- The preservation of white heritage.
- A demand for excellence in all things."
Oh, the horror.
But nothing in common with, or similar to the rantings of that delusional scumbag Wright.
It seems like EURO is less racist than the NAACP.
I find myself in agreement with Jason.
We definitely ought to bring back dueling.
Their is a problem, however. The reason two people would duel, is because they wanted to protect their honor.
The people Jason wants to see duel, have no honor. And they would never consent to a duel.
The people Jason wants to see duel, have no honor. And they would never consent to a duel
But that sort would be socially shunned, and seen as cads and cowards.
Eric wrote:
"It seems like EURO is less racist than the NAACP."
I notice that too, Eric. White supremacy is all about racial grievance, just like mainstream Democrat politics.
"If only dem Jews wasn't plotting against us white folks, I'd have me a big house and a union job paying me $100k/year for sitting around doin' nothing much. They owes it it to me 'cuz I'm white.
Who invented the automobile? White man. Who put a man on the Moon? Wasn't no colored guy. It was white guys,like me."
When you get that deep in the madness, everyone who is white and who is not a obviously a Jew is either a secret Jew or is controlled by Jewish advisers. Scooter Libby, for example, is supposed by white supremacists to be Dick Cheney's Jewish controller.
But that sort would be socially shunned, and seen as cads and cowards.
Bingo.
When you get that deep in the madness, everyone who is white and who is not a obviously a Jew is either a secret Jew or is controlled by Jewish advisers. Scooter Libby, for example, is supposed by white supremacists to be Dick Cheney's Jewish controller.
This particular madness - imagining a Zionist operative under every rock, controlling the President and Vice President and bankers and the media - is far more common and accepted on the left - where it is now mainstream received Progressive wisdom - than it ever was on the right.
"I don't think anyone is saying Scalise actually met with David Duke."
I think it was Duke himself who said he met with Scalise and other GOP politicians--not that Duke is particularly credible. But people meet with noxious characters all the time for various reasons--it's what goes on at the meeting that matters.
If for example Obama met with Sharpton to say "knock off this crap and go get a job for once in your worthless life" then I'd applaud Obama for recognizing that he doesn't need "street cred" from Sharpton. But if he's treating Sharpton like some special representative of "Black America" then shame on him for that.
Drago,
I am a practicing psychologist, at least for a couple more years.
Madisonfella cites Salon which lead me to believe that it is an example of "confirmation bias." Many lefties read only the sources that confirm their views and none that challenge them. I doubt very much if he has watched Fox News for more than a few minutes in his life.
My one comment 5 hours ago warrants a duel?
First they try to shout us down. Then they call us ugly names and make up lies about what we've said and things we've done. No surprise that they also wish physical harm and death upon us - they are psychotic, pure and simple.
They really can't tolerate any sort of dissent from anybody. Go With The Group is their motto and they will wish harm any who dare to think outside of their echo chamber.
Many lefties read only the sources that confirm their views and none that challenge them. I doubt very much if he has watched Fox News for more than a few minutes in his life.
You've been forced to believe I'm a lefty. Given my opinions on the second amendment and abortion that is a very foolish belief for you to hold.
And who watches TV news anymore?
Igv cites a New Orleans newspaper which lead me to believe that it is an example of "confirmation bias." Many righties read only the sources that confirm their views and none that challenge them. I doubt very much if he has watched anything but Fox News for more than a few minutes in his life.
"I should know - I'm a medical doctor."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUNdYoy1AUM
This site is hosed up. Are you saying that scalise is ok because of Byrd? Or Wright? He voted against MLK day, said he agrees with duke but is more electable we scramble, and did speak to this group althoughthe civic association is a reasonable cover, it isn't true. We should not have allowed this known bigot to represent us. We look like idiots or worse.
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