He has even gotten used to being denounced as a rapist on fliers and in a rally in the university’s quadrangle. Though his name is not widely known beyond the Morningside Heights campus, Mr. Nungesser is one of America’s most notorious college students. His reputation precedes him. His notoriety is the result of a campaign by Emma Sulkowicz, a fellow student who says Mr. Nungesser raped her in her dorm room two years ago. Columbia cleared him of responsibility in that case, as well as in two others that students brought against him. Outraged, Ms. Sulkowicz began carrying a 50-pound mattress wherever she went on campus, to suggest the painful burden she continues to bear....He plays the bullying card.
He says that he is innocent, and that the same university that found him “not responsible” has now abdicated its own responsibility, letting mob justice overrule its official procedures. The mattress project is not an act of free expression, he adds; it is an act of bullying, a very public, very personal and very painful attack designed to hound him out of Columbia. And it is being conducted with the university’s active support. “There is a member of the faculty that is supervising this,” he said. “This is part of her graduation requirement.”
২২ ডিসেম্বর, ২০১৪
It's his mattress too.
"He has gotten used to former friends crossing the street to avoid him."
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«সবচেয়ে পুরাতন ‹পুরাতন 245 এর 201 – থেকে 245While we are on the subject of rape, I think Family Guy trivializes rape, and is an apologist for a rape culture way more than conservatives.
He could have defended himself without using the "bully" framework.
Not within a University framework. In that context, he must speaketh the proper magic word, which is "bully". Speaketh the magic word, and one's complaint must be heard.
By crying "bully," he's using a word associated with the women who protect women
Not at all. Bullying is associated with students picking on other students, especially with the tolerance or forbearance of the school toward the bully. Which seems to be exactly what's happening here.
Avoiding "their" word might be preferable, however. He won the case. Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous. Set an example.
You could as easily ask that of her. The answer is obviously that the "traditional male" response would probably get him nothing but in further hot water.
I'm liking the idea floated above of a duel. Mensur. Both drink from the Soup Plate of Honor. And a Schmiss for both of them as a bonus. Perfect.
Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous.
Becaue not only do most women no longer appreciate chivalry, they often attack you for showing it.
Face, you feminists have managed to ruin a good thing, though you persist in trying to revive it since it benifits women.
Are we entering Vortex territory?
Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous. Set an example.
We're tired of being Charlie Brown trying to kick a football Lucy.
But..maybe "bullying" is wrong here. Maybe it's better referred to as sexual harassment.
By using the term "bully" he is guilty of cultural appropriation. This is all so simple.
The young lady in question has only herself to blame. Her claim is that she willingly went to bed with him, intended to have sex with him, but he then forced her against her will to have anal sex. If true, that's rape. If she had gone to the hospital/police immediately after, there would have been a rape kit and an investigation, and if there was forensic or other evidence supporting her claim (e.g., bruising), he would today be serving time upstate. She waited two years to complain to the school and by that time it was just she said/he said and they concluded she hadn't proven her case. The only lessons to be drawn from this sorry episode is that women who think they have been raped should immediately go the hospital/police, and that schools should have nothing to do with investigating or adjudicating such claims because they have zero expertise or ability to do so.
I like Tank's concept, but how about a sign with her picture, and the
slogan "would you fuck this with a toilet brush?"
"If she had gone to the hospital/police immediately after, there would have been a rape kit and an investigation"
How could she know that? Her MD parents? Besides..mom says her daughter "did what she had to do".
Ann Althouse said...Avoiding "their" word might be preferable, however. He won the case. Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous. Set an example.
Speaking of tradition, people have been speaking ill of one another for time immemorial. That's all this woman is doing. Why doesn't that make her look bad?
Haven't you answered your own question? Why doesn't it make her look bad? Because the currency now is victimhood--that's what the Media cares about that's what the Left and self-styled Feminists persist in using as the framework for understanding any conflicts, and that's what anyone has to make use of, at least in part, to be heard at all. Being gracious and chivalrous didn't get him anywhere with the Media. She is speaking ill of him, yes, but that's certainly not "all" she is doing. She's speaking ill of him in a way that makes him a symbol for a larger movement and a target for the ire of Feminism.
Look at the Slate article (link: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/12/22/paul_nungesser_meet_the_accused_columbia_student_at_the_center_of_emma_sulkowicz.html) that's priding itself on being as sympathetic to Nungesser as possible. " As Sulkowitz has emerged as a symbol of disenfranchised survivors, Nungesser has come to symbolize all the entitled young men who take what they want and never pay the consequences. That’s not quite fair." See, it's not quite fair. If he doesn't play the bully card, does the NYT interview him at all? How would he defend himself at all if his dispassionate rational defense of himself is immediately dismissed (self-interested, privileged, white cis-gender biased, etc)?
Suck it up, be a man, be above it? It's some big damn coincidence that sex roles and traditional gender stereotypes should only be followed when doing so is against a man's interest, isn't it?
Paco's comment at 12/22/14, 8:03 AM, quoting another commenter elsewhere really says it all.
Remember these people are very, very young, and frankly, very, very stupid about very complex relationships.
Many young women can't make a distinction between "giving in" for the sake of their relationships and "giving up" possibly to save their own lives. One is part of the complexities of human pair-bonding. The other is rape.
Professor Althouse wants this poor dumb young man to be "the bigger person," to show some "chivalry." I don't think he has it in him. Might be a bit much to expect anyway when you carry the Scarlett Letter "R", even after acquittal.
"He plays the bullying card."
And she plays the victim card. She's a victim of her own bad judgement. She laid down for a guy she really, really didn't want. And now, like Atlas with the world on his shoulders, she carries her mattress as her metaphorical burden. Boo hoo.
Just an article from a different perspective:
http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/columbia-u-rape-accuser-emma-sulkowicz-performs-mattress-piece-theater-to-demand-bureaucratic-lynching/
But did Emma go to the police? The student-run, independent news site BWOG interviewed Emma about it. She told BWOG:
…afterbeing mishandled by them as well, I just didn’t feel safe or comfortable talking to them anymore, and they passed the case on to the district attorney’s office, who contacted me and said it would take up to nine months or a year for it to go to court.
By then I would have graduated, and if I sit around waiting for that, I’ll be missing out on other opportunities like creating this piece, or doing other work, it’ll just be a waste of my time.’ In short, she has been unable to work with the NYPD.
Things to do, places to go..mattress to carry.
I like the idea that rape accusers self-identify by carrying mattresses. It makes them easier to avoid. I hope the idea catches on.
Douglas:
His choice of rectal ingress may have motivated her identification with a mattress metaphor. He did not perceive or treat her as a woman, but as an object with an orifice that would hold his penis. It could have been any object, human, animal, or inanimate, that would provide the anticipated sensory feedback. He chose her and she feels degraded. A mattress used, despoiled, and disposed.
I wonder if they address human psychology in sexual education courses. Human beings have learned to control their baser appetites with a productive outcome. The most expensive education system in the world rarely fails to betray its pupils. When coupled with a libertine culture, a dysfunctional convergence is inevitable.
There are actual rape victims out there, and this stunt with the mattress--for college credit, no less--makes light of what they go through. But I suppose as long as she's on the right "team" then it's all right and good.
The recent flurry of rape accusers (Mattress Girl, UVA's Jackie, Lena Dunham) has me wondering if they were all put up to it by a shadowy cabal dedicated to proving that there are a lot more false rape accusers out there than people realize. Surely, if you were trying to actually prove that actual rapes were more common, you'd find better examples than these?
Instead we have a bunch of women who never reported their rapes, or never went forward with criminal prosecutions, and whose stories fail to hold up to the most basic scrutiny. What is this serving?
I can't tell if Althouse is serious. I think she's trolling. She can't be serious.
Doesn't she realize that "rationally citing that win" isn't possible when the whole point of the art installation is to make college disciplinary procedures even less fair to the accused? Apparently the fact that an accused was cleared is evidence to feminists that the system doesn't work. The purpose of the process is to convict, by golly.
This is Star Chamber thinking. Queen of Hearts stuff. Kangaroo courts. Whatever. The point is, modern feminism cannot be reasoned with. If this man tried to be gracious and confident while citing his win, he would be accused of countless microaggression and revictimizations and so forth. His male thinking reeking of patriarchy. Can't he just grovel and beg Columbia to expel him?
By then I would have graduated, and if I sit around waiting for that, I’ll be missing out on other opportunities like creating this piece
What a weird comment. So, fake art is more important than prosecuting a supposed rapist?
This is why people don't find some of these accusations credible.
Out of all the outrage in the story, the use of the term bullying is an issue?
Man, I guess I am insensitive. At least when used in the context of this joint.
Sounds like n.n. was there at the scene...should have stopped this assault.
I still think the central metaphor is debasing the currency. In that vein Prof A's comment that he could have eschewed victimhood, rationally cited the facts, etc, is a bit like telling someone "you could have paid your bills in pre-debased currency, since the face value is the same." It's true, but why would you expect anyone to act that way?
walter:
Not at all. The events were reported. The rest is inference. Normal human beings do not tolerate degradation. This is neither corroboration of the events nor testimony.
Why did the mattress cross the road?
I suggest two possibilities. One, to exploit the morally ambiguous rape loophole, that rationalizes commission of premeditated abortion. Two, in order to shame an occupant that defiled, despoiled, and discarded it. Since the complaint is about rectal ingress, the latter is most likely the effect, and motivated the unusual response.
If you don't report a rape within two weeks, it never happened. If you report within that timeframe, and it takes six years to catch the rapist, that's fine - send him up the river if he's found guilty. But reporting has to happen sooner. If I call my insurance company and tell them I totaled my car back on Memorial Day, I think they'd probably laugh at me.
The only exception to the above would be if you were in a coma, or had a TBI and couldn't remember for a time what happened. But if you're otherwise healthy, and this wasn't some exceedingly violent event that put you in the hospital and unable to report for yourself, two weeks should be the limit.
so from what I have gathered here and in comments elsewhere. He dated 2 of the girls for awhile. Somehow they compared notes and decided to file charges.
I think he's guilty of poor form looks like he tried or went anal on both of them without asking if it was ok in an otherwise normal relationship. Basically he pulled what Kobi Bryant did with the hotel employee in Colorado but in this case he was dating the girls.
You have a son going off to college next year, what kind of advice are you giving him? Stay away from the girls at the college altogether possibly? Look for a girlfriend off campus or at the nearby Junior College perhaps?
A friend of mine, his son was sent a nude selfie unsolicited. The son fowarded it to a few friends. He was then expelled. Nothing happened to the girl who sent the nude pic, somehow she became the victim.
"You have a son going off to college next year, what kind of advice are you giving him?"
I don't have a son, so my advice is worth what you're paying for it, but I'd say for any kid old enough to have a cell phone or Internet presence to never upload, create or send anything they don't want to have to explain in a deposition someday. Get a nude selfie? Don't forward it--even if you thought you got permission you may be dealing with a photo of an underaged girl, or maybe the person who sent it to you wasn't who they claimed to be. Keep it all vanilla online, always. Anything risque you want to do needs to be analog.
As for dating, well saying not to stick it in crazy is easier said than done--not much you can do there but hope to impart judgment and experience before they go out in the world. There are predators of both genders, and a long trail of lives in their wakes. You're rolling the dice every time, and hopefully will spot trouble before you get into it.
Herb:
Avoid "friends with benefits", and don't engage in fetish behaviors. A moment of pleasure and experimentation is an invitation to a lifetime of pain and discomfort. And it is clearly not limited to STDs or Obama's "burden", as both the "mattress" and its second occupant have learned.
If photos etc made "after the fact" are rendered irrelevant, there is very little to protect someone from a false accusation. Is he legally prohibited from leaking them if he has something? And..I would like to know how the three women managed to find each other's stories.
You can talk about conduct and avoiding "fetish" activities..but..
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/13-women-who-lied-about-being-raped-and-why-they-did-it/#comment-1737297692
walter:
Life is an exercise in risk management. We lack the skill to perfectly infer intention, let alone to divine the future. The best we can do is to mitigate risk.
Men and women need a "traditional" perspective of relationships, including dating, courting, and commitment. Otherwise, they are playing Russian roulette. If that's your choice, then good luck. The probability of suffering pain and discomfort is indirectly proportionate to the separation from a known reference in time and knowledge.
Incidentally, this is the same error function that establishes the limits of the scientific domain, but substitute accuracy for "pain and discomfort", and space for "knowledge".
"Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous. Set an example."
To the shrieking harpy stumbling around behind him dragging a mattress.
Riiiiiiiiiight...
I do feel sorry for the young woman, to a point. She can never let go of this position now, and it will define and haunt her for the rest of her life, because she is plainly unwilling to face and admit her own poor conduct.
Giving the mother's gallows sympathy for the alleged rapist, will she be sending him a holiday card? "So sorry we could not arrange a swifter punishment. Best wishes for 2015."
n.n.
Life has always been Russian roulette..even under traditional terms...in some ways..moreso.
walter:
Life is a chaotic process that begins with conception and ends with death. This is not quite Russian roulette. In between the first source and final sink, it is characterized by semi-stable states with indefinite periods. This is where it becomes an exercise in risk management. With the passage of time, there are emergent, reproducible patterns. With increasing knowledge, our skill to forecast patterns improves.
n.n. I feel, though you refer to Russian roulette, you are viewing human interactions through a prism of a linear equation. I don't sense it working out as such. societal norms have always evolved..often for the better. Maybe more productive to identify errant elements and reign them in or re-direct but still within some semblance of current culture.
Just to clarify, if the other women were to testify that the accused had done the same thing to them ( that is, if they were to testify that he physically forced them against their will to have anal sex after they had gotten into bed with him expecting just to have regular sex), that would not be hearsay. Hearsay is an out-of-court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted; in the hypothetical case, the women would be testifying in court about what happened to them, and they would be available for cross-examination, so that would not be hearsay. Moreover, in a federal trial such evidence would be admissible under FRE 413(a): "In a criminal case in which a defendant is accused of a sexual assault, the court may admit evidence that the defendant committed any other sexual assault." I do not know what the rule would be in a NY criminal case.
@n.n Please stop pushing your morality agenda. Apparently you'd love to see coed dorms abolished, and now you have a reason.
Brando was right; there is something shadowy going on. Please don't be a part of it.
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