Iftikhar said:
Well, Chuck, I think it's important to keep in mind when you're talking about groups like ISIS, that we're not talking about the X Men or the Transformers here. We're not dealing with Wolverines or Optimus Primes. Essentially, we're dealing with loner idiots who are sitting in their tighty-whities, in their mother's basements, playing Call of Duty on their XBox Four, who are disenfranchised, disengaged from the rest of the community.Which I guess means: There is no role. These loners are loners. Picture them as stereotypical American idiots. They're not in the American/Canadian Muslim community in the first place, and if we saw them coming, we'd throw them out.
I mean, if you look at Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the shooter in Ottawa, he was actually thrown out of a mosque in British Columbia, similar to the Boston Marathon bombing suspects who were once thrown out of a Boston mosque. So in terms of community policing, the Muslim community in the United States and Canada has done a remarkable job....
Todd does not ask if perhaps there is something active the Muslim community might do to draw these loner-losers to the positive, constructive version of Islam. Todd just accepts Iftikar's distancing — "Well, I understand that" — and moves on to a different question, asking whether the problem is the responsibility of media:
So is this a media issue? Does it become the more attention attacks like this get, does it end up actually serving perversely to convince more of these mentally-deranged folks to say, "Hey, I'm going to use this perverted ideology as a way to get more attention for my attack"?Iftikar turns this question into another way to defend the reputation of his community from the criminals who operate under the same brand name:
Yeah, you know, whenever American Muslims or Arabs are impugned after an attack like this, it helps to serve the agenda of these organizations to say, "See, America is at war with Muslims." But the fact of the matter is that there are over seven million American Muslims that live here peacefully. Five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners, including this year's, Malala Yousafzai, are Muslims. And so, you know, sadly, when you look at the narrative media-wise in terms of listening to all of this negative, extremist, violent narratives that we're dealing with. And that's what we have to push back against.And that's all Iftikar is asked. He had his anodyne talking point, distancing himself and defending the reputation of his religious community — a community defined to exclude anyone who adopts a violent ideology. But why is there not also a proactive effort to win co-religionists away from their hateful interpretations? Perhaps he thinks it unwise or dangerous to allow anyone to see any reason to see those terrible people as anywhere nearly within the scope of things that are his problem.
American Muslims or Arabs are impugned after an attack like this, he says, stereotyping the rest of us as bigots who lump everyone together.
६४ टिप्पण्या:
I saw that interview. Hatchet-wielding muslims are just nerdy white losers in the basement.
Got it.
Five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners, including this year's, Malala Yousafzai, are Muslims.
So let's see:
2014. Muslims 1, Hindu's 1
2013: NGO
2012: NGO
2011: Muslim 1, Christian 2
2010: Chinese?
2009: Obama, Christian 1?
2008: Christian
2007: Christian
2006: NGO
so that is 2 Muslims of 12, not 5
want to go back 4 more?
2 Muslim, 1 NGO, 1 Christian
want to go back 4 more?
1 Muslim, 1 NGO, 2 Christian
Let those "Moderate Muslims" publicly condemn the teachings of the Koran and Hadith as often command the use of murder, genocide, rape, sexual "use" of very young girls, wife beating, use of torture, perpetual war against "unbelievers"
Etc. AND then publicly ink out of an Arabic edition of those sources the verses as require such act.
I think the reason that the mainstream Muslim community practices simple ostracism as opposed to going on the theological offensive against the extremists is because the mainstream Muslim community isn't really sure in its heart that if they engage the extremists in debate the moderates will come out ahead. Sunni history is not replete with examples of the moderates "winning out". Sunni "moderation" consists mostly of the authorities giving "vice & irreligion" a wink & a nod so that everyone can go about their business withou too much interference from the "virtue police".
Five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners, including this year's, Malala Yousafzai, are Muslims.
The narrative trumps the facts.
Iftikar knows that if he gets too visibly assimilationist there's a chance he will end up a dead Muslim. They know where he lives.
How about they stand up and condemn babarism? Publicly state they think women should be equal citizens. Publicly state they think the Burkha is a disgusting symbol of repression. Publicly denounce the stoning of adulterers.
While we are at it publicly denounce Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah.
Hell could freeze over and they could admit Israel has a right to exist. They could also admit that women and gay people are full citizens in Israel, while they are repressed and hunted minorities in muslim countries.
Could we get them to admit that Sharia Law is also disgusting and repressive?
How about those "asians" in Rotherdam? The problem highlighted there is we can't even get our progressives to denounce this crap. They supported it.
But why is there not also a proactive effort to win co-religionists away from their hateful interpretations?
Because there is a recognition that this is an impossible task, one that if attempted in the wrong place could see one sentenced to death for apostasy.
The writings of Islam support the hateful intepretations, and there is no supreme authority to disown them.
Islamophobia !
Nothing to see here. Move along.
The Muslim limo driver who left his family in Irvine to shoot up LAX in 2002 was just a mystery to the radical imams that run US mosques. Of course, the radical mosques are a right wing myth.
Of 8,600 mosques in U.S.-allied Jordan—most of them illegally built, 4,500 are led by preachers, or imams, who aren't appointed by the government, according to official figures.
Of course that is Jordan. Everybody know that US Mosques are "moderate", except this guy:
"Al Qaeda has taken advantage of state-supported proselytizing around the world," the Treasury Department's Assistant Secretary for Terrorist Financing, Juan Zarate, declared four years ago. Zarate's office has taken a leading role in designating terrorist financiers and is pressing the Saudi government to crack down on them, as well, according to The Washington Post, October 2, 2003. Zarate later moved to the White House where he serves as Deputy National Security Advisor for Combating Terrorism. American officials have described as a Wahhabism, known as an intolerant, ascetic movement, was developed by theologian Mohammed ibn Abd Wahhab in the 18th century to purge what he saw as corrupting influences and return Islam to its original orthodoxy.
Although Media Matters knows better.
King's Claim Is The Latest Example Of A 10-Year-Old, Unsubstantiated Smear. King's claim that "80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams" is the latest example of a smear that began in 1999. The claim, which is based on a single, unsubstantiated statement by California cleric Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, has been repeated by conservatives and anti-Islam activists for more than 10 years, despite a complete lack of evidence to back it up, and Kabbani's admission that his criteria for extremism was "a focus on the Palestinian struggle."
What do those US government people know ? That was Boooosh !
I guess he forgot to mention that it was Muslims who put that bullet in Malia's brain in the first place, the one that she survived to become a candidate for that peace prize. Funny, that. Maybe he was thinking, "Hey, without us she never would have made it to the big time, right?" He didn't mention why it might be that a mosque with a troubling congregant(?) such as he described would not be well advised to alert the authorities to his existence, and perhaps even monitor his activities. Just to demonstrate their own good faith, as it were.
No mention of the Blind Sheik. You know, the guy who ginned-up the '93 WTC Bombing! He also plotted to blow-up the UN, bridges, tunnels and buildings in NYC. He was also implicated in assassinating a Muslim Nobel Peace Prize winner. Mosque in NYC!
No mention of Al-Awlaki. You know the guy who ginned-up the 9/11 terrorists and (notorious tighty-whitey) Nidal Work Place Violence. You know the guy Obama droned because he was so dangerous! Mosque in Virginia.
Some of these mosques do foment terrorism beyond the tighty-whitey crowd.
Oh and by the way, the Boston Marathon tighty-whiteys' mosque did have terrorist ties. Mosque in Boston
When they toss someone out of the mosque because of their extreme views they should at least give the FBI a heads up.
So then Eric Rudolph wasn't a Christian terrorist?
MTP is just a platform for favored constituencies to broadcast their views.
If I told you Frank Silva Roque wore tighty-whities would that change your opinion?
Steve Uhr said...
"When they toss someone out of the mosque because of their extreme views they should at least give the FBI a heads up."
Two governments warned our government about the Boston bombers. If the Obama administration spent as much time looking for terrorists as they did persecuting his political opponents we would have caught them before the bombing.
They took a guy shouting "Allahu Akbar" at a military base and called it "workplace violence." Obama's political fortunes have been put ahead of soldiers and citizens for 6 years.
Progressives are a huge part of this problem also.
Message? WE CAIR
NOT
The guy touting the number of Muslim Peace Prizes misses the fact that Norway awards these to people preemptively and prematurely -- hoping to stave off wars. They are often wrong -- witness BHO.
"What's the role of the leadership in these Islamic communities to identify perhaps people that are joining, converting, but not for the right reasons?"
The right reasons? What exactly would the "right reasons" be for converting to Islam? A desire to kill people? A desire to buy women and rape them? A desire to bang your face in the dirt?
Do the Crips screen out punks who are trying to join for the "wrong reasons"?
Five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners, including this year's, Malala Yousafzai, are Muslims.
I didn't check the list, but I wonder if President Obama was counted in the five.
Gee, he was thrown out of "a" mosque. I'm sure there are more than enough (either formal with buildings and informal that meet in homes) that were welcoming.
Michael Ledeen disagrees
"It doesn’t really matter what you call them, because they’re figments of the “expert” imagination. The legend-mavens tell us that there are “normal” Americans (this part is very important) who somehow just go bad, and turn into murderous terrorists. There is no foreign input, no alien country or intelligence service, no global conspiracy. The terrorists are homegrown and they are on their own. Lone wolves.
...
There ARE homegrown terrorists, like the Unabomber, but these aren’t the people we’re talking about just now. Unabomber is a nut, but he’s a distinctly American nut, and definitely a lone wolf. The so-called lone wolves of recent days–the killer in Canada, the axeman in New York, and, we should add, the Oklahama City decapitator–aren’t loners, they’re members. They’ve been inspired by local or online jihadis.
Another thing. These jihadis often turn out to be converts, even “recent converts.”
Words like “convert” often slide past our active attention, but we should focus on them. The act of conversion requires the convert to join a religious community, and may require other actions. Converts to Islam, for example, are usually required to be circumcised, although I find that some online Muslim recruiting sites will tell you that you can avoid it if the thought is just too terrible. The sites do say that you can convert on your own; you don’t have to show up at a mosque to become a Muslim, all you have to do is swear an oath to Allah.
But then you’ve got to participate. And since the Koran is an Arabic text, you’d best learn some Arabic. The site will guide you to the local mosque where you can pursue your Islamic education.
The point being: converts are the opposite of lone wolves because they need help (do you think they circumcise themselves? Or study Arabic alone?). They are entering a new world–it’s why they are converting, after all–and it behooves us to take a careful look at the psychological dynamics of their transition.
So when an abortion doctor is killed, all christians and pro lifers are indicted in the media and by the left. When a kid shoots up a school the media and the left hold the NRA and law abiding gun owners responsible. When a muslim convert kills, at the prompting of an Islamic group, muslims can't be held responsible. Do I have that right?
"Five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners, including this year's, Malala Yousafzai, are Muslims."
Nice job of dodging why what Malala Yousafzai did as a Muslim was so extraordinary as to be worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize.
Out: They're the JV team!
In: They're not a team at all!
When a mass shouting happens by a non-Muslim, we have to ban all guns.
When a Muslim kills multiple people with a fire arm we have to be concerned about back lash, Islamophobia and protect Muslims.
And I say ckuf that.
Or, to perhaps identify these potential troublemakers, who might besmirch the name of Islam,to the authorities?
Like, our "authorities" would care.
"American Muslims or Arabs are impugned after an attack like this, he says, stereotyping the rest of us as bigots who lump everyone together."
Reminds me of that joke headline:
Muslims worried about backlash from tomorrow's bombing
Kelly and Phil - name the Christian faith (catholic episcopalian Lutheran, etc) who are today preaching to their congregants that infidels must die, sharia laws, etc.
Oh, you forgot Timothy McVeigh. Usually posts like yours like to pretend he's a Christian terrorist.
The foiled 2009 attack on nyc subways (guy planting knapsacks of explosives he put together in his flushing apt) was done with the help of an Imam. Then the Feds repaid him by deporting him for some chickenshit reason. They should have rewarded him.
"American Muslims or Arabs are impugned after an attack like this, he says, stereotyping the rest of us as bigots who lump everyone together."
If a "bigot" is someone who believes that people who voluntarily join terrorist organizations are terrorists, then yeah, I guess I am a bigot. Not sure what Arabs have to do with it, that's a race. There are Christian Arabs, you know.
"... the positive, constructive version of Islam...."
Hm-m-m. That would be the version that does not follow the Holy Koran, right?
Hands up everybody who's sick to death of the "sitting in his mother's basement" crap. It's time to start smashing people in the face whenever they use that line to avoid dealing with someone inconvenient.
"... the positive, constructive version of Islam...."
That leapt out at me too. I can't think of a single example. Unless we're patting them on the heads for not beheading folks. Once again the Left treats colored folks like retarded children.
It's absurd for non-Muslims to talk about what is heresy within Islam. For American legal purposes, there is no such thing as heresy. Everyone has a right to find and articulate his own idea of religion. There isn't one true Christianity, and we have a cultural truce about that. The same goes for whatever anyone wants to say Islam means to them. There's nothing, as far as I'm concerned, to say about what's correct and incorrect under the name Islam. We're all free to think whatever we want.
But when it comes to conduct, other interests predominate over religion. No one is entitled to commit acts of violence because they think their religion authorizes or requires it.
That's the American legal position which is good and stable. I like it.
impugn a whole community eh? kind of like when Gabby Giffords was shot, and it was the fault of everyone who believes in the 2nd Amendment.
Someone suggested to me that using the term "Lone Wolf" terrorist is kind of insulting to Lone Wolves, who are somewhat to be admired. He suggested "Rabid Dog" Terrorists.
Regards — Cliff
X-BOX FOUR?
This guy is full of shit.
Muslim run countries are fucked up places. Good to know that a handful of Muslims who appear on American media shows are the true exemplars of Islam.
"we're dealing with loner idiots who are...playing on their XBox."
Also, reading 'Inspire.' Just like 'Boy's Life,' with special emphasis on leveling up to martyrdom.
"Five of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners..."
Yassar Arafat was a Nobel Laureate.
I walk by that mosque in Cambride every day and think...they are fucking hot and need a blowjob.
All of the blather is excuse making for an actively violent religion.
Yes Mr. If Ticker--there is something your community could do with the nut cases in it. Staple their tighty whities to their mama's bed, so they don't leave the house.
El Cajon California was where some of the 9-11 attackers trained. There is a significant Arab Iraqi community in El Cajon--a suburb of San Diego. Several years ago I had occasion to attend the funeral of the husband of one of my cousins. The ceremony was held in a Methodist church in El Cajon. There are several religious facilities in the immediate neighborhood--maybe the city fathers zoned it for churches and such. I took a stroll after the ceremony and went by the local mosque. It was small and part of a larger building--obviously the congregation was still relatively small. The name of the mosque over the entrance door, 'Khalid, Sword of the Avenger".
Somehow I can't imagine a Catholic church building named after "Torquemada Burner of Heretics" or a Lutheran facility named "Martin Luther--he'll nail your Catholic priest's indulgence selling hide to the church door". And having attended a Lutheran funeral for a young lieutenant who died in Viet Nam, and watching his parents be told he would burn in hell for fighting in an unjust war (not much pastoral solace there for folks who'd lost their only son) I figure that the Lutherans have some heavy duty theology.
But "sword of the avenger" will do for a mosque. Lighten up fellows,.
My hubby in a combo of Hind/Brit which is really hot. A brownie with a brit accent-so surprising and intriguing.
But a muzzie terrorist with a brit accent drives me crazy. I want to do them as they make me wear a suicide vest and say Mohammed is great. The thought of that so unreligious act makes me blow a load in a second.
Not to mention arab men are so sexy-their eyes, mouth, beards, exoticsm, and instanity are do die for!!!!!!
I was in a bazaar in Kuwaitt and they are begging for my white, blonde, midwestern cock. I mean hello how hot is that?
Prof. Althouse writes:
"American Muslims or Arabs are impugned after an attack like this, he says," stereotyping the rest of us as bigots who lump everyone together.
Prof. Althouse, please explain the thinking that led to the meaning you claim to derive from Iftikhar's seeemingly straightforward statement? Specifically, how do you read his statement as implying anything at all about "the rest of us?"
Sorry, but it just ain't there.
Honestly Titus. Nobody really cares.
"So then Eric Rudolph wasn't a Christian terrorist?"
I don't know. I know he attacked an abortion clinic but have never read about his motives.
He says he is against abortion but I don't know of a church he attends.
Do you have more examples ?
Remember those nerdy white losers in London who chopped up that corporal on the sidewalk and then stood around shouting threats...?
"5 of the last 12 Nobel Prize Winners are Muslims"- I see this has become a progressive talking point. Isn't the prize they are winning most often the Peace prize, and the Muslims who are winning it are doing so by defying Islamic orthodoxy, and fighting against religious Muslims who are murdering women who try to vote or date outside their religion or throwing acid in the faces of little girls who try to go to school, "Including this years winner, Malala Yousafzai"...?
What annoys me more is that muslims never seems to be associated with the "muslim world", that for instance those who get money from Saudi Arabia aren't associated with that country's total lack of religious freedom. Things like that.
Achilles;
"Progressives are a huge part of this problem also."
"Progressives" are the problem. If so called feminists, the left, "progressives", people like that would use their "standards" on islam than islam wouldn't be that big a problem.
What annoys me more is that muslims never seems to be associated with the "muslim world", that for instance those who get money from Saudi Arabia aren't associated with that country's total lack of religious freedom. Things like that.
Achilles;
"Progressives are a huge part of this problem also."
"Progressives" are the problem. If so called feminists, the left, "progressives", people like that would use their "standards" on islam than islam wouldn't be that big a problem.
bbkingfish said...
Prof. Althouse writes:
"American Muslims or Arabs are impugned after an attack like this, he says," stereotyping the rest of us as bigots who lump everyone together.
Prof. Althouse, please explain the thinking that led to the meaning you claim to derive from Iftikhar's seeemingly straightforward statement? Specifically, how do you read his statement as implying anything at all about "the rest of us?"
Sorry, but it just ain't there.
She's saying that Iftikhar says all whites lump together all muslims after one muslim attacks. In other words, he's trying to carry home the idea that white Americans impugn the whole religion based on the actions of separate "loners".
And having attended a Lutheran funeral for a young lieutenant who died in Viet Nam, and watching his parents be told he would burn in hell for fighting in an unjust war (not much pastoral solace there for folks who'd lost their only son) I figure that the Lutherans have some heavy duty theology.
Do you remember which Synod that lutheran church belonged to? just curious.
I was in a bazaar in Kuwait
You must mean the mall. don't conjure up some Indiana Jones image. That's far from reality.
The problem for those of us without the sophisticated and nuanced view of Muslim vs. Nut with hatchet or shotgun yelling something that sounds Muslim as he hacks or blasts innocent bystanders is the lack of time to separate the two worldviews. And that leads us to the belief that they are all dangerous.
Shame on our adrenaline, I guess.
"You must mean the mall. don't conjure up some Indiana Jones image. That's far from reality."
I was in Egypt as recently as 2009 and while they had malls, there were also bazaars.
That is open air markets with booths that can and are taken down at the end of the day and put back up in the morning where a variety of goods are sold.
Of course I have also seen bazaars in Italy and Germany as well.
Is the idea of Arabs having a bazaar somehow racist? Why?
It is disturbing to me that MTP gets on the air and broadcasts this white wash which is factually untrue and there is no national-level response. Blogs, Fox and Rush don't get the coverage of MTP, and national media is consciously or unconsciously blind and uncaring about truth. Althouse is a nice way to kick back, but...
Is the idea of Arabs having a bazaar somehow racist? Why?
Kuwait is not Egypt. The distinction being that the market places have changed due to the great amount of oil money that has poured into Kuwait over the decades. Souq Sharq is no long an open air market, it's a shopping mall. just one example. UI was just wondering why Titus felt the need to National Geo it up. In the summer, Kuwaitis return to their nomadic roots by living in tents, away from their houses. They drive out tents on the outskirts of Kuwait City, complete with electric lights, concertina wire surrounding them to form a "compound".
Besides, bazaar is a persian word. It's souq in arab countries.
Five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners, including this year's, Malala Yousafzai, are Muslims."
I would be far more impressed if the 12 were awarded the prize for work in the hard sciences.
Proof that Muslims have clean underwear at all?
"The same goes for whatever anyone wants to say Islam means to them. There's nothing, as far as I'm concerned, to say about what's correct and incorrect under the name Islam. We're all free to think whatever we want."
For purposes of American jurisprudence, yes.
But as a practical matter, there is a core Islamic theology - and it's defined by a very specific legal code that's been in final, standardized form for about a thousand years.
That's why "Sunni" Saudi Arabia and "Shia" Iran - along with every other country actually governed by Islamic law - all practice some form of gender aparteid & forced veiling (purdah), concubinage, peadophelic marriage for girls, the criminalization of apostasy, blasphemy, open adultery, homosexuality, & proselytizing for a non-muslim faith. It's also why such countries treat non-muslims as second class citizens and preach that it is incumbent upon muslims to wage jihad until all the world submits to islam.
While many muslims may not wish to be governed by Islamic law, by in large, they still agree on the basic terms.
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