Jackie Williams, 47, said Myers was his nephew... “My nephew was coming out of a store from purchasing a sandwich. Security was supposedly searching for someone else. They Tased him... I don’t know how this happened, but they went off and shot him 16 times. That’s outright murder.”...
An attorney, Jerryl Christmas, suggested, "There is no epidemic of black officers shooting white kids, but there is an epidemic of white officers shooting black kids." He said police are too quick to resort to deadly force....
October 9, 2014
"He had a sandwich in his hand, and they thought it was a gun. It’s like Michael Brown all over again."
Said a young woman who said she is the cousin of the teenager who was shot to death by a St. Louis police officer last night, touching off new protests. The 18-year-old, Vonderrit Myers Jr., had a gun, the police say, and he not only charged at the officer, he shot at the officer at least 3 times and was trying to keep firing, but the gun jammed. The cop shot 17 times.
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122 comments:
Let's not wait until the facts come out. Instead, let's hear why we're a racist country and how this cop, whom we do not know, is a racist.
This story mentions that a gun was recovered, but not much else.
CNN presents a completely different story. "Off-duty Cop Shoots, Kills Man who Fired at Him." http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/09/us/st-louis-officer-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 They present it as clear that he did shoot.
An earlier story said that there were bullets recovered as well, though I'm not sure whether that is still out there, and the officer's story is that he was very certain that the dead fellow did have a gun and did fire.
Either way, if he did fire and/or was holding the gun, that should be easy to confirm (fingerprints, residue). I would not assume that this is a case of racist police brutality quite yet. Relatives are hardly trustworthy here.
How about this time everyone wait until the facts come out before we decide the guy who was shot was a thug who deserved it or the cop is a racist who cold-bloodedly executed someone for his blackness?
No, can't do that--there's some rabble to rouse!
It should be relatively easy to investigate--if the cops say he had a gun and it was discharged, there should be a gun at the scene and casings from the gun. At this point, intelligent people would call for nothing more than a full investigation. If this turns out to be a tragic misunderstanding, then explore whether police procedures should be changed.
But you start marching in with Al Sharpton and you're going to get the same mess he's brought us for the past three decades.
He said police are too quick to resort to deadly force....
I used to believe this was wrong until I saw the video of the cop shooting the Black kid who was reaching into his truck to get his id like the cop ordered him to do.
"If I had a son he would......"
St. Louis Cardinal fans were chanting "Pant up, don't loot" last night at the game.
Want to see what Detroit was like 25 years ago? Go to St. Louis. Southwest is much cheaper than time travel.
The best thing by far that I've ever read about St. Louis is the Radley Balko piece in the Washington Post last month. It's long but very good.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/
My husband grew up in North County, just outside of Ferguson. The WaPo piece follows the 25-year conversation he and I have been having about St. Louis so closely it's creepy.
We have the races of the parties involved.
Nothing else matters. By tonight, there will a dozen witness who saw the whole thing.
There he was, doing nothing at all, and the cop drove up,started screaming, and shot him for no reason at all.
Anybody who has been in elementary school will recognize this story...
It's an mid-term election year where it looks like the Democrats may lose & lose big.
Our first black president's second term looks more like an episode of the Keystone Cops every day.
The Vice-President says at a public forum to a predominantly black audience "The Republicans want to put y'all back in chains!"
The "activism" over this death & Michael Brown's is much more than simply black grass roots frustration with the police. This is a "get-out-the-vote" push by another name.
Think I'm cynical? If I'm cynical, then show me the national stories on Al Sharpton showing up at one of the many shootings of a young black man by a young black man. I mean, where's the rabble to rouse by pointing out black on black murder?
Let's jump to conclusions because- Racists
How can you guys call for calm and orderly investigation when there are innocent taco bells and gas stations ripe for the looting!?!
Three times he shot the sandwich at the cop. I wonder what kind of sandwich it was.
It was probably a submarine sandwich. They can fire off dozens of rounds with one press of the trigger.
Whoever gets the story out first wins. An untrue account will get the same number of hits as a true account. The web has turned every shooting into high tech gossip like we used to have at the back fence when we didn't know diddly about the facts.
Wait so the story is so different on the cops side that they are suggesting he fired at them and the family is suggesting he only had a sandwich?
I would think, ultimately if the perp were firing a gun it would be easy to prove.
How about this, sometimes cops are to quick to fire, sometimes they do have justification.
This officer was never given a chance by the thug who set up an ambush of the cops.
http://nypost.com/2014/07/13/cop-shot-dead-trying-to-stop-armed-robbery-at-walgreens/
They are waiting for any excuse to riot in St Louis, may as well face that now. The place will go up in flames eventually.
not enough information. no comment.
however, see eric (first comment)
I'm done with this.
Seems like that was a loaded ham sandwich.
"I used to believe this was wrong until I saw the video of the cop shooting the Black kid who was reaching into his truck to get his id like the cop ordered him to do."
Things like that certainly happen--whether it's cops going against procedure or procedures themselves that need to change. Which could be the case here, depending on what a full investigation turns up.
The morons rioting are doing nothing except convincing the general public that we need tougher cops, not more careful cops. What a contrast from the protesters in Hong Kong who actually clean up after their protests.
A few more details including about the gun allegedly used by Myers:
“Authorities found the Ruger, which appeared to have jammed after firing at least three rounds, at the scene, police said. Three bullets that had been fired toward the officer were also recovered. One bullet was found in a vehicle behind the officer. Trajectories showed they had been fired downhill at the officer, police said.
Police said the Ruger had been reported stolen on Sept. 26.”
And
“Court records show that Myers was scheduled to stand trial in November for unlawful use of a weapon and resisting arrest. This summer, Myers was a passenger in a car involved in a high-speed car chase in St. Louis, officials say. The car crashed just after midnight on June 27 in the 1100 block of South Grand Boulevard. Myers got out of the car, and a police officer yelled at him to stop. Instead, Myers ran off and tossed a gun into a sewage drain. Police caught him nearby and recovered the gun, a loaded .380-caliber pistol.
Myers was jailed for a few days. Then, in early July, Myers was released on bail after posting $1,000 cash bond. His bail originally was set at $30,000 by Judge Rex Burlison but was dropped to $10,000 after Judge Theresa Counts Burke agreed with a defense motion that it was excessive. Burke allowed Myers to post 10 percent of that in cash. A second judge upheld that bond amount later.
On July 8, as a condition of bail, Myers was activated on electronic monitoring for house arrest, court records say. He could leave his home in the 4200 block of Castleman Avenue for work, school, court appearances, meetings with attorneys and meetings with the private monitoring firm.”
The sandwich was apparently loaded and went off as it was pointed at the cop. But, hey, racism.
I would pull back police entirely from these areas and let them work it out themselves. You cannot win.
All this talk about a sandwich is making me think about a grilled cheese or maybe a BLT. Maybe something on pumpernickel would be fitting? Wait, pastrami is always good.
Cops sometime do the wrong thing. Young men wearing ankle bracelets for gun possession are also known to do the wrong thing. It should be easy to document the officer's charge that the young man had discharged a weapon.....My prejudice is to believe the cop, but, if the evidence says otherwise, then I'll be more believing of the protesters.......Whatever the evidence shows, the protesters will think the cops are wrong. Everyone is prejudiced but some people are more prejudiced than others.
I see we have entered "The Moderation Zone." Hmmmmm.
Thorley Winston:
The evidence and circumstance indicate that Myers, like Brown, overreacted due to his history or recent criminal activity, and forced a confrontation.
The only remaining question is if the officer could control the situation, and Myers, without resorting to the use of deadly force.
I live in St. Louis, and I would say that there's something about this shooting that doesn't seem quite right.
The policeman was off duty working "department approved" private security. Officer approached a group of black males, (unclear at this time why) one decided to run away, was chased by unnamed/race not known officer, gunfight ensues, cop discharges weapon 16 times, black man dead.
So here's my problem, the role of a police officer changes when he goes from "public servant" to "hired gun".
I've done quite a bit of street photography, and have in fact ran from security guards who thought it was within their power to stop/detain me.
I also support the right to keep and bear arms, which according to the story is what the black dead man was doing.
Now supposing I'm that black man, and im a carrying a gun, and am being chased down by a policeman, I know that if he catches me I'm going to be on the receiving end of a legal, and possibly physical beat down, yes, I might decide to protect myself.
Now you may argue that the black man didn't know the policeman was working as private security, but the policeman most certainly did. This doesn't look like a policeman going above and beyond the call of duty, rather it seems like he was exceeding the limits of what he was being paid to do. Who will pay for the defense of, and assume the liability for damage of this officer? The Business who was paying him at the time, or or the taxpayer through the police dep.?
Of course this assumes the facts are correct up to this point as presented by the local news media.
What's wrong Crack?
Until the facts come out, and by "Facts" I mean the racial identities of those involved and their relative aggrievedness factors, we can't know what happened.
Oh wait, we know that? Case closed, hang him.
I thought district attorneys were supposed to indict sandwiches, not have cops shoot them.
Michael: "I would pull back police entirely from these areas and let them work it out themselves. You cannot win."
No, you cannot win.
But we cannot give up on those who need protection in those communities lest we wind up with additional crack-beloved "We Don't Need Whitey" Detroits all over the country.
Tank said...
I see we have entered "The Moderation Zone." Hmmmmm.
More like "The Meade-ration Zone".
The police must have wanted his sandwich, so they ate the evidence and gave him their throw down. That's a fair trade.
Jesse Jackson can't catch a break.Attempts to score on Ebola, now Sharpie might beat him to St.Louis. Should Jesse abandon the heartbroken Ebola mother and take a chance on upping the ante, or stick with the hand he has dealt himself?
Oh, let me be the first"Why didn't the cop shoot to just wound him, like on TV? Boy was just starting to get his life together, gonna cut a record and start college in a couple of weeks."
Tari - thank you for posting that link. That was a fascinating and heart-breaking article.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, Crackie, you walking, talking validation of stereotypes.
"Of course this assumes the facts are correct up to this point as presented by the local news media."
You probably have the facts right, even though you have the facts wrong.
If its anything like it is here in Seattle, the police are routinely hired by private business to act as security.
They are still police officers. They wear their uniform. They are on duty, as police officers, but they are receiving overtime pay rates.
This is a scam run by a lot of police. Or maybe it's not a scam, just how business is done. But when private events wish for extra police coverage, the police say, "Sorry, we don't have the funds for that." and the business says, "I'll reimburse you."
A lot of times it's just traffic control.
But they don't stop being police officers. This isn't another job they've applied for an received. They are being paid by the city for police work.
Drago:
No, I think it would be better for everyone in our rainbow society if each little enclave policed itself: the Thais can have Thai police, the Somalis Somali police and so forth on down the line.
They all have their precious unique "cultures" and their own mores which cannot be understood by outsiders.
They can design their own uniforms. Can can even arm their police if they have the nerve.
I think the goose has finally had enough with the pot shots.
I don't know why they were tolerated as long as they were.
"But they don't stop being police officers. This isn't another job they've applied for an received. They are being paid by the city for police work."
Yeah, I read that story to mean the officer had been moonlighting as security, but when he saw suspicious behavior (three guys running from him for some reason) his duty as a police officer (which doesn't end when they're off the clock) required him to stop them.
Now, as an officer maybe he had reasonable suspicion to stop them, and maybe he didn't--which is what an investigation can uncover. But the fact that he was off-duty isn't relevant.
Yeah, that system already exists. It's called sovereign nations. So unless you're Basque or Tibetan, there's a place you can go (hint: likely not located on the Mississippi River) where you can be governed by people who look and behave just like you.
Didn't they use the sandwich bit in the movie "Casino"? Mob guy gets shot by the cops because it's dark and he's carrying a sub wrapped in tin foil?
It won't be long before law enforcement will be ordered never to fire until fired upon. Maybe as a parting edict by Holder. The police unions are going to go berserk.
From law enforcement to peacekeeping.
If only St Louis could replicate the peace and harmony they have right across the river in East St Louis.
Re: What Levi said about police acting as private security.
Several years ago in my town, the apartment complex in which I lived contracted with the local police department to provide security. The twist was that their role could change at any time.
When the police came onto apartment property, it was very confusing to know in what capacity they were acting.
Fortunately, our new police chief put an end to ALL private deals, though I don't know if it applies to individual officers moonlighting.
My view is that officers should be allowed to moonlight as long as they are out-of-uniform, do not use departmental firearms, abide by all rules and laws concerning private security and cannot go back on duty in the blink of an eye.
>> and cannot go back on duty in the blink of an eye.
Not really possible if they have jurisdiction.
If your off-duty security guard cop sees a carjacking across the street from your apartment complex, he/she has to respond.
A private security guard does not. There's no real way to be both.
In North Carolina yesterday, the police broke into a house where the black foster child of a white family was seen by a neighbor. They tased him rather than killing him but what the fuck?
If you go back and look at the video of the guy with the knife who was shot and killed in St. Louis shortly after the Mike Brown killing, you will see that killing the guy was utterly unnecessary.
In this case, the suspect may or may not have fired on police. But according to police he fired 3 shots from longer range and then his gun jammed. The police officer then fired 17 times at a suspect who was not firing back.
I understand that police have to protect themselves but they can do so without trying to kill every suspect who they believe has threatened them.
Julie C said...
Tari - thank you for posting that link. That was a fascinating and heart-breaking article.
Article:
"[Bolden] A couple of those fines were for speeding,
one was for failure to wear her seatbelt
and most of the rest were for what defense attorneys in the St. Louis area have come to call “poverty violations” —
driving with a suspended license,
expired plates,
expired registration and a
failure to provide proof of insurance."
Which of those laws should be eliminated or not enforced?
- speed limits?
- seatbelt requirement?
- driver's license?
- car registration and plates?
- insurance requirement?
When I'm King I'll raise the speed limits and eliminate the seatbelt and insurance requirements. How about you?
"[Bolden] fell behind in her paralegal studies (after getting arrested for failure-to-appear)."
So, after some studying to be a paralegal, she didn't even understand the most basic aspects of the court system. I predict she'll end up working for the government as a wise non-latina.
"Stories like Bolden’s abound across the St. Louis area."
Life's tough. It's tougher if you're stupid and kinda sleazy.
The Crack Emcee said he is done with this. Thanks.
One of the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians is self-control. There must be many people in Ferguson and St. Louis who are angry but don't try to get even with society by methods that ruin even more lives. We won't see them on the news but I am grateful for their actions.
In my family there are people who need protection--mentally handicapped, elderly--things like that. They would not know how to take care of themselves in a riot. There must be weak people in these neighborhoods, too. I hope their networks of protectors are active today.
Ferd - maybe read the article through to the end. It's long but I know you can do it!
So far as I've read the cops saw the guy (18 ain't no kid, he can join the USMC at that age) ran like he was trying to keep something from falling out of his waistband. Cop thought it was a gun.
Caught up with him and in a struggle the shooter pulled a gun and fired several times. But his aim was far worse than his anger and he missed.
Cop pulled his own gun and yep, 17 shots, and hit him a few times (folks.. spray and pray does not work all that well.)
Anyway, they recovered the gun the shooter had.
We will see what facts come out and what facts people like Sharpston decide they want to believe or not.
>>> But according to police he fired 3 shots from longer range and then his gun jammed. The police officer then fired 17 times at a suspect who was not firing back.
Are you seriously suggesting that someone who fires 3 times at a police officer should now be deemed no longer a threat, since he has stopped firing?
How on earth is any police officer supposed to know WHY the guy stopped shooting?
Is he supposed to call time out while they review in the instant replay booth in New York?
Go out and get shot at a few times, an let me know if you still have the same opinion. Assuming you don't meet somebody who knows how to clear a jam quickly....
"he Crack Emcee said he is done with this. Thanks. "
My guess is that he is done expending his energy on those who mock and insult him. Why bother. There is an endless supply of biting flies.
From the WaPo story
"So I’m late a lot. And when I’m late, I speed. But I’m still a human being.”
That was Bolden’s second arrest. In 2009 she was arrested in the town of Bel-Ridge for a warrant on a speeding ticket."
So, knows what happens when you speed, she knows you get arrested if you don't pay. She knows she has four active warrants. But, she STILL thinks speeding is the right answer when she's late. Which she is a lot. Sorry, lady, here's your citation.
To me, what's MUCH WORSE is you have all these tiny towns where the prosecutor in one town is the judge in another tiny town, that pays him with ticket revenue.
That's built in conflict of interest and corruption.
"My guess is that he is done expending his energy on those who mock and insult him. "
Well, Crack never shied away from mockery and insults himself, did he?
Good riddance to bad rubbish if he really is gone.
Anyway, they recovered the gun the shooter had.
Only one? Given the history of that police force, figured at least 7 or 8 guns would have been "found" on the scene.
I'm guessing that they will never find the sandwich.
"Anyway, they recovered the gun the shooter had.
Only one? Given the history of that police force, figured at least 7 or 8 guns would have been "found" on the scene."
See? You can't win. Much better to let our various cultures police themselves. We already have no-go zones but the police have to go into them. Have the no-go areas truly no-go and let the good citizens of those areas police themselves. The police in those communities will carry guns at the pleasure of the community.
Only one? Given the history of that police force, figured at least 7 or 8 guns would have been "found" on the scene.
I don't think that it is as easy as it used to be to plant a gun on someone the police have just shot. There would be GSR on the decedent, and likely the last prints on the gun, if he shot it. That is hard to fake at the last minute, and given how high profile these shootings have become, foolish. If the cops shot someone with a sandwich that they thought was a gun, then you have possible police overreaction, and an excessive force/wrongful death law suit. If the cops instead plant the gun, and are caught at it, it is much worse, both for the city, and for them personally.
Right now, I am willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt, given that they are likely to be caught if the gun was planted, or not shot. It doesn't hurt matters that the decedent had already been arrested for illegal possession of a firearm, and this would likely be another the same, and probably be a violation of his bail.
...he shot at the officer at least 3 times and was trying to keep firing, but the gun jammed. The cop shot 17 times.
This will reawaken the whole automatic v. revolver barroom debate. "Yeah, revolvers don't jam, but they don't hold 17 either."
Listen and watch as a DA justifies an unarmed white age 20 get shot to death by police earlier this year in Utah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw1DSiJ5hEc#t=61
Levi Starks said...Now supposing I'm that black man, and im a carrying a gun, and am being chased down by a policeman, I know that if he catches me I'm going to be on the receiving end of a legal, and possibly physical beat down, yes, I might decide to protect myself.
Uh, what? The news reports say the cop was in uniform. I could understand an objection if this was some guy in street clothes chasing someone down, right, you could argue that you didn't know or believe it was a cop and you were in fear for your life and trying to defend yourself--that could be a reasonable belief and you might have an argument. But since self defense is usually based on a reasonable person standard the arguement that "I was being chased by the cops and didn't want to get arrested/manhandled" will always fail. A desire not to be arrested (or tackled when fleeing, etc) is not a reasonable basis for self defense. Unless you're arguing that the cop in question was acting wildly and/or in an unreasonably dangerous manner not related to his duties as a law enforcement officer I don't think your particular line of reasoning holds any water.
As an aside I am a bit tired of being on the side of defending the conduct of law enforcement officials generally, being of a libretarian-conservative bent as as I am. Cops do a lot wrong every day, guys, please pick better martyrs!
madisonfella said...Only one? Given the history of that police force, figured at least 7 or 8 guns would have been "found" on the scene.
Yeah, they probably faked the bullets they recovered (that the dead guy w/a record fired-allegedly!) and their shell casings and GSR too. Tricky damn police, to do all that when there could be witnesses, you know?
Let's see, fake a struggle with a dude who's just eatin' a sandwhich (probably a gentle giant), make him run away, chase him, pull out your plant gun, fire it 3 times behind yourself/in your direction relative to him, empty a mag at him (killing him obviously, no witness there), plant the gun on him--somehow getting his fingerprints/DNA on the gun plus getting the residue on him, then call it in; all while ensuring that none of that was caught on any security cameras or cell phones that might be pointed your way.
Occamm's razor, totally; that is how it must have happened. Why even wait for all the surely-to-be corrupt investigation? Maybe Eric Holder can fly in and sort it all out.
"I used to believe this was wrong until I saw the video of the cop shooting the Black kid who was reaching into his truck to get his id like the cop ordered him to do."
I think what happened here was that the kid got a little too cooperative and dived - not just "reached" - into his car to get his I.D., and the cop was overly jumpy and thought he was going for a gun.
When I first came to this country, I was early on told to move slowly and deliberately and keep my hands in plain sight when pulled over, just in case the cop was of the nervous type.
Cops do a lot wrong every day, guys, please pick better martyrs!
My minor run-ins with cops have not left me thrilled with their behavior, either. But, then, you read stuff like this, and it's tough not to have some sympathy for them. I mean, here's a clown who not only would disarm them in the face of armed criminals, but this councilman talks about "getting rid of guns in the district" when the Supreme Court has already ruled DC's gun restrictions unconstitutional.
"Laws? We don't give a shit about the laws."
I'm curious as to how many times the officer hit the suspect. 17 shots fired.. how many hit? The range had to be very close.
It's not a revolver .vs. semi-automatic but skill .vs. time to practice (or will to practice.)
The punks gun no doubt was poorly made to jam on him (but that's fine with me.)
"I'm done with this."
Yeah. It's too complicated, isn't it? Or… too simple… the wrong way.
If lefties can believe that fire can't make steel bendable, to the amazement of blacksmiths everywhere.
If lefties can believe that a typewriter from the '70s can format a document that by happenstance, fits perfectly with an overlay of the same document produced by MS word,
A lefty will believe that the police could pull off such a con, and did!
We won't know how much racism was involved until the racial identities become known.
Was the cop Hispanic, white, white-Hispanic, black or other?
Was the victim a Hispanic, black, black-hispanic, white-black, or other?
Only white cop and black victim is MSM newsworthy.
Its a good thing the NYT created the Hispanic-white = white formula, so if the cop turns out to be at least 1/2 white they can still make the shooting a nation-wide story
>>The punks gun no doubt was poorly made to jam on him (but that's fine with me.)
I read it was a Ruger, which is a reputable make. I'd blame the maintenance, not the make...
A dirty Colt Gold cup with ancient corroded ammo might jam, too...
"The best thing by far that I've ever read about St. Louis is the Radley Balko piece in the Washington Post last month. It's long but very good."
I read it and it is infuriating. The problem is that blacks have taken these self destructive methods to protest. The Watts Riots in 1965 were in response to a traffic violation arrest. Maybe that was a bad arrest but it burned down Watts and it never recovered.
Trayvon Martin was a druggie who was heading for the thug life. To make him a hero is self destructive.
The black inner cities, and even the suburbs, are so violent that sympathy gets thin on the ground. They always seem to focus on some thug like Michael Brown and make outrageous demands.
Martin Luther King had the right idea. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been teaching all the wrong lessons.
What's the point of a high capacity magazine if you shoot all your bullets at one target as fast as you can pull the trigger?
Cops have also been known to carry "throw aways," which is cheap untraceable pistol that can conveniently transform a case of panic into a " heroic officer defeats arm maniac" front page story.
The cop fired 17 times? He ought to go to jail just for that even if the deceased was guilty of shooting at him. How many people were around there ? Firing that many shots and mostly missing could have endangered a lot of people. It looks like the cops on that force need a lot more training in shooting and when to shoot and when not to shoot.
At least after the 17 shoot weapon ran out of shells the police officer did not use a Choke Hold on the still breathing body. Good to see their training is finally kicking in.
Maybe there are worse police forces than St Louis County.
The witnesses -- members of a local gang that the authorities say has infiltrated the police department in this and other towns -- said that 17 students from a local teachers college were apprehended by police officers, turned over to the gang, taken high up on this hill, killed and buried.
They are among 43 students reported missing after a confrontation Sept. 26 with the local police, leaving a series of pressing questions unanswered. Where are the other students? Why would the police want them killed? And if many of these bodies are not those of missing students, whose are they?
Life in Mexico.
That Wapo article was eye opening. I'm less sympathetic to the first "victim" in the story, but I'm not sure if a police force is needed if all they're doing is writing up ticky tack tickets all day.
When we moved to our current state, we were surprised at how many cops there were out with a radar gun. I guess the cops back home had a lot more real crime to deal with--speeding (or broken tail lights, or failing to use a turn signal) wasn't priority #1. Here, I've been stopped for "following too closely." I'm sure the guy was hoping to find something so he could write me up, but I held my tongue and off I went without a citation.
madisonfella said...
What a sheltered life the suburbs must be. Because cops plant shit on people all the time in the city.
Yeah, urban Madison, tell us Atlanta people how things go down in a real city! I'm not disputing cops plant things. I remember Kathryn Johnson. I'm not claiming cops are usually honest. The reported facts so far, though, make a simple "planted gun on an unarmed innocent" seem like a difficult sell, though. I understand the belief that many cops carry throwaway pistols to plant. In this case, though, it has been reported that the recovered pistol was fired at least 3 times and 3 bullets were recovered from the area behind where the cop was when the cop fired.
I've seen the movie Training Day, madisonf, I don't automatically believe cops, and I have not made my mind up in this particular case. I do not, however, see much reason to assume the cop is lying, that there is a coverup, nor that the gun was planted--not yet, and not from what's been reported so far.
EDH:
Gill is belaboring the point. The video does not demonstrate probable cause nor does it establish that the suspect posed a threat to the officer or public. The officer shot him proactively.
It's peculiar what does and does not make national headlines and invite presidential intervention. This is the story that people complaining about government's excessive use of force should have elevated to national attention for public scrutiny.
Still, if not for the double-standards, it is better that this incident was handled locally. America already has one foot in the grave with the weight of class diversity.
It could have been a Ham and Wesson sandwich.
Pettifogger said...
Three times he shot the sandwich at the cop. I wonder what kind of sandwich it was.
I think body cams for police officers will be mandatory/ubiquitous in the near future.
I admit that I look forward to the innovation as an improvement.
I will be glad to see the level of trust the community has in its police force reestablished/improved.
Gateway Pundit has the dead guy's rap sheet, includingk an indictment for felonious assault with a firearm due for trial Nov. 21. he was wearing an ankle monitor when shot.
The easiest way to make a semi-auto jam is to bend the ears on the magazine just a little the wrong way.
Read that Balko link to learn more about STL than you will find in one place elsewhere. It's a crooked ass game taken to new heights. I've long been wary of even passing through. Radley explains much about how it's played and how it got that way. This particular case isn't typical, but it's a mistake in STL to accept uncritically any official account.
On the other hand, if the sandwich was bitten into the shape of a gun I take it all back.
Big city police are trained, whether officially or unofficially, that once they start shooting they should keep firing until they are all but out of ammunition.
That's a problem, but I'd suggest the problem is not murder of the suspect but reckless endangerment of bystanders.
The reckless endangerment charge holds up whether or not the suspect deserved the first several shots.
17 rounds? It sounds like he dumped the entire magazine. I can't believe it took 17 rounds to eliminate the threat.
The shots were fired after or during the struggle. If it was the latter, then it would explain the large number of rounds discharged.
>>Big city police are trained, whether officially or unofficially, that once they start shooting they should keep firing until they are all but out of ammunition.
Bullshit.
"The reckless endangerment charge holds up whether or not the suspect deserved the first several shots."
The important thing here is to overcome the cop's right to self defense.
Fernandinande,
Balko explains that, as you drive through St. Louis county, you will pass through 10 or 15 municipalities all on 1 road. All those towns can give you a ticket for the same busted tail light - and they'e likely to, since their main goal is to raise money for their town, not to keep the peace, protect people, etc. He goes into that in detail as well, later in the article.
The other kicker is, as you drive down these main roads through the county, the speed limit changes each time the town changes. So 1 long street = 25MPH, 40, 35, 25, 30 - and so on until your head spins. 4 points on your license in MO and you lose it, and in the county tickets add up fast. My in laws thought nothing of hiring attorneys for my husband and his older brother, just so they could keep their licenses and drive themselves the 45 minutes each way to high school each day. They were not tickets for driving recklessly, endangering others, etc; they were just part of life in St. Louis.
DanTheMan,
What kind of Ruger? The LCP, LC9, or the larger autos?
The polymer Rugers don't impress me as they are just ripoffs of Kel-Tecs.
St. Louis Cardinal fans were chanting "Pant up, don't loot" last night at the game.
Bullshit.
The officer who fired the shots is reportedly an ex-Marine with several decorations for valor during service in Iraq. The man who got shot was wearing an ankle monitor for a previous arrest for gun possession.......As noted we all have prejudices, but given the records of these two men why wouldn't you believe the officer's story.
Radley Balko has a point, as far as it goes. However people who must drive in North St. Louis County simply pay attention and drive the speed limit - and hire a lawyer to plead a ticket down so it doesn't go on your driving record as a moving violation.
Farther south in the county the municipalities are larger, the tax base is stronger and we don't put up with that BS.
We just have to live with a black man who came into our Council meetings, kill two policemen, the City Manager, the Mayor and half the Councilmen. I knew each of them personally.
Because he was annoyed that we ticketed his construction trucks for parking in front of his house at night, which none of us is permitted to do either.
If you hold Rugers thug style with the weapon in a horizontal position you are going to get a jam. Gravity never rests. You should learn to hold and shoot pistols the right way, the way they are designed and not the way they are held by bad dudes in action movies. If the designers thought it a good idea to have spent shells eject from the top of the pistol they would have designed them that way.
There's an epidemic of white cops shooting black kids?
If so there is a mega epidemic of black kids killing black kids.
That lawyer should be disbarred for push race hate of white cops.
I have my Concealed Carry License and carry a Glock 19 with a 17 round mag and and extra mag with 10. If I ever have to use it I will fire it until it is empty. I am a 5 ft. tall woman, they would never expect it. I am also a better shot than my husband.
I think what happened here was that the kid got a little too cooperative and dived - not just "reached" - into his car to get his I.D., and the cop was overly jumpy and thought he was going for a gun.
http://youtu.be/vtx1tYc7PxI
disgusting.
17 shots is what it takes to get a zombie down, what the hell did this cop think?
Sounds more like someone playing a video game than dealing with other human beings.
Mark is always quick with a judgement, not even from the sidelines, because at least then he would have some facts, but from a dark room where he depends on his ideology for the evidence he needs.
I guess what Mark wants is a new law like the California consent law to cover these cases and "create evidence where there is none."
Isn't there some new ISIS horror you need to be apologizing for?
We had hoped to stop the zombies with that Voter ID law, Mark, but as you cheerfully note, it has been stayed, so I guess you prefer bullets. Ok here.
What a sheltered life the suburbs must be. Because cops plant shit on people all the time in the city.
So, again, places dominated by Progressives are shitholes that ignore law.
Progressive-led placed have massive issues with rape and, apparently, cops planting evidence.
Progressivism doesn't have a lot of success stories.
I've heard it said the Israelis invented the canted presentation because their policy is to carry in Condition Three and that makes for ultimate speed while charging the piece; but somehow I don't like the story, because I suspect the Israelis wouldn't get themselves into a jam voluntarily when they have so many offered to them free.
abby,
Bad bad bad idea. Your approach makes it more likely that you will miss with at least some of your shots.
Aim, fire for effect, and when you see the effect, stop shooting.
Your bad guy may have an angry friend nearby.
If containing and killing blacks, oh not in a splashy KKK way but steadily and in large volumes, is the Progressive plan, as Margaret Sanger and Woodrow Wilson may serve to show has been the deep history of it, then Prog-run cities are smash hits. They have trained blacks to run into the muzzles of guns and demand to be killed. We have inner cities peopled by Luca Brasis.
Would this be an effective defense strategy:
Your Honor, I was afraid for my life! So I shot him until I wasn't afraid any more.
@Gahrie,
TThis cop indeed was exceptionally, and you may well judge unreasonably, jumpy, but my comment stands, even here in relatively peaceful Albuquerque.
If you need to go back in the car for your ID, tell the cop and get his OK first.
And I am about as "white" looking as anyone can be.
They should be able to jail attorneys for purposefully lying about fact in a crime investigation.
>>They should be able to jail attorneys for purposefully lying about fact in a crime investigation.
I remember my first traffic court case.... the judge swore us all in, officers and defendants, as a group.
I noticed that none of the lawyers present raised their hands or took the oath.
:)
Bravely Ran Away
The Crack Emcee:"I'm done with this."
Of course you are. How can push your "systemic racism" crap in the shadow of a thug who starting shooting at a cop?
You would lose whatever respect people still have for you.
Fen,
"Bravely Ran Away"
From what I can tell - based on how whites here "debate" me - that's their favorite tactic.
Bravely.
"How can push your "systemic racism" crap in the shadow of a thug who starting shooting at a cop?"
Easy - remind you police are overseers and slave catchers, who blacks have little reason to trust or respect, and I'm fine with whatever blacks have to do to escape them - including trying to restrict THEIR freedom by killing them.
If whites won't deal with the "systematic racism" within white supremacy, then we have to - and, by definition, that's a dangerous business - so it's really that simple.
"You would lose whatever respect people still have for you."
Those would be "white" people - who routinely regard blacks as "thugs" and (for centuries) worse - so no matter:
As long as you refuse, to see us as "people," then enjoy the chaos white supremacy has created:
I try, but - as you saw yesterday - it can be hard when a true American dies,...
Fen said...Of course you are. How can push your "systemic racism" crap in the shadow of a thug who starting shooting at a cop?
Easy - remind you police are overseers and slave catchers, who blacks have little reason to trust or respect, and I'm fine with whatever blacks have to do to escape them - including trying to restrict THEIR freedom by killing them.
Asked and answered. Pro cop killing, pro rape--can't say such charming individuals hide their true colors.
>>Easy - remind you police are overseers and slave catchers
I must have been absent the days they taught that at the academy.
>>I'm fine with whatever blacks have to do to escape them - including trying to restrict THEIR freedom by killing them.
Finally! Crack says killing white cops is OK, as long as you are black.
Thanks for making your position clear.
man Crack, you had me at "I'm done with this." Why did you have to go and spoil it?
HoodlumDoodlum,
"Asked and answered."
That was the request.
"Pro cop killing, pro rape--can't say such charming individuals hide their true colors."
Notice:
You didn't mention white supremacy's influence in your recap - the true evil stalking our culture - instead, relying on it's RESULTS to justify more-of-the-same:
No mention of the police's ugly history, of being white supremacy's butt boys, depriving blacks of centuries of freedom - why? Because, only by leaving that history out, can you pretend to justify the police's actions - and pretend black's are wrong.
And pro-rape? After all the centuries of whites raping black women? Running well into the 20th century?
If you're going to insist on pretending reality isn't what it is - as a white guy - I'd leave any mention of rape out of the assessment of what's-what:
There simply aren't enough women to even those scales,...
”Black Teens Are 21 Times More Likely to Be Killed by Cops Than Whites”
You didn't mention white supremacy's influence in your recap - the true evil stalking our culture - instead, relying on it's RESULTS to justify more-of-the-same
Ok. Because of white supremacy Crack is pro cop killing. Because of white supremacy Crack is pro rape as long as the victim is white. Does that make it better?
Gotta say, if that's the position MLK took I really must misunderstand him, just like Crack says.
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