"I am a mess if I have to say goodbye to my dog for longer than five days. I don't know how I would deal with kissing my children as I left for work. I know there are women who are able to do that. I don't know if I could."
From "25 Famous Women on Childlessness." Interesting to read the whole collection, because so many of them, like the one above, express the old-fashioned belief — not straight out, but implicitly — that a woman must choose between a career and motherhood.
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How come you never see magazine articles with those questions asked to men?
Yeah, MadisonMan, good question.
My life would be so much smaller without my kids. They add much more than they get from me.
I thought the whole point of accumulating a surplus of material wealth, was to have something to leave one's heirs.
"How come you never see magazine articles with those questions asked to men?"
You realize you're channeling Zoe Deschanel?
None of their answers masked their regret.
I had read this a couple of days ago. All of the answers seemed either regretful or defensive, sometimes a bit of both.
I think most childless men would feel the same, though with less intensity.
I can't help feeling sorry for people without children. The feeling I got seeing the births of my daughters is something I wish everyone could experience.
I agree with the women who say that unless you want a child with thunderbolt clarity, don't. The rewards are immeasurable but so is the commitment. And yes, mothers bear the brunt of child rearing beginning immediately with morning sickness. And mothers' careers become less of a priority.
A New Yorker cartoon not so long ago depicted a woman at a cocktail party saying to a very pregnant woman:
"Have you and Tim picked out a name for the career obstacle yet?"
She was speaking to the mother-to-be. Not the father-to-be.
If you don't have kids, or grandkids, you can always have surrogate kids.
Biology is not uber alles IMO.
I know plenty of people who, when I look at them, seem completely exhausted by their kids. Be careful what you wish for.
The ladies who say that they feel everyone's children belong to them really creep me out. Ensign Lefler, why do you have to be this way?
Biology is uber alles. Anything else is ultimately vanity.
Reproduction is job #1.
The triumph of operant conditioning. The drive to reproduce is expressive in every cell of every life form, down to the molecular level. Life exists to make copies of itself.
These women probably believe that they are the apotheosis of creation. That is the underlying belief behind humanism and atheism. The second law of thermodynamics (entropy never decreases) would beg to differ, but that is another discussion.
If I were a financial advisor, I would recommend that investors with long horizons put some assets into anything cat-related.
People who don't have children tend to be defensive and for some maybe regretful about it because people are expected to have children.
Diane Sawyer didn't make the list. I think some men do get ask about it, I remember reading about Paul Hornung trying to explain why he never wanted children.
The most interesting quotes in that article:
13. "Nowadays, why get married? Nobody else does.” —Liza Minnelli, Access Hollywood Live, April 2012
19. "It's unconscionable to breed, with the number of children who are starving to death in impoverished countries." —Ashley Judd, Sunday Mail and her memoir, All That Is Bitter and Sweet, 2006 and 2011
"How come you never see magazine articles with those questions asked to men?"
Males exist to work, not think.
Well, that's mostly crap, but 95% of everything is crap.
What I find most interesting is that the prevailing model of motherhood they're reacting to is, as one says, "all day every day for 18 years." Which is crap.
The humbling lesson of parenting is that, within broad parameters, the kids will be just fine regardless of what you do. Of course, people don't usually realize that until the second kid.
Ashley Judd sounds like a miserable person. Thank goodness she's taken herself out of the gene pool.
I can't help feeling sorry for people without children. The feeling I got seeing the births of my daughters is something I wish everyone could experience.
Biology is uber alles. Anything else is ultimately vanity.
Reproduction is job #1.
The underlying premise is that everyone is wired the same. Exposed to the same stimuli, they would all react the same.
Nope.
It's hard to tell with some of these quotes if the women are telling the truth. That is, some of it sounds as though it is meant to sound regretful or wistful, but covers up the cold heart of a celebrity who cares more about her physical appearance than caring for a child.
Raising kids to the utmost of your abilities is a huge commitment. I appreciate that some people recognize they'd rather commit to other things. Better than committing to everything and doing it all halfway.
Of course, better they not have kids than those celebrities of the past who had kids because it was expected of them and then neglected the kids or left them to the nannies. Lucille Ball's daughter talked about being raised by the nanny.
It seems obvious that making people feel obligated to have children is bad for society. Raising children well is one good contribution to the world, but there are other good contributions to be made.
Related: I don't know why having a stay at home dad isn't more popular among career driven women who want children.
I liked Condoleeza Rice's answer:
I at some very deep level believe that things are going to work out as they're supposed to. The key is to be open to that and to appreciate the life that you've been given.
Too many of these women are actors - kind of ruined the article for me. Acting seems like a terribly competitive, harsh career path. It attracts self-absorbed people that need lots of focus on themselves. Forget sacrificing parenthood, don't many in in Hollywood sacrifice their own souls to get the fame they want? Please, Ann, actors get way too much attention for their opinions already.
Maybe men don't get asked that question because it's harder for the interviewer to be sure the man doesn't already have a child.
It's psychological aberration which can be tolerated in a closed, minority population. Unfortunately, there is evidence that choosing abortion, contraception, and "asexuality", is a progressive condition. Fortunately, we have a large [illegal] alien population, which is displacing and replacing the defective population. Now, if they will only assimilate the local standards. Otherwise, it will be a contentious future for surviving Americans.
Liza Minelli probably would not have been the best mother in the world, and it's just as well she chose not to. But you could say the same thing about Judy Garland. A lot of the people who shouldn't have kids have produced some successful albeit unhappy offspring.
I sometimes question the wisdom of having children, like the other morning when she got up first and decided to make breakfast for everybody, took a chicken breast out of the freezer and, thinking it was bread, tried to stuff it in the toaster, realized it wouldn't work and threw it in the garbage (it was going to be that night's dinner). Then she sucked her thumb and touched who knows how many things in my kitchen so that I woke up to a big cleaning job and 36 hours of concern about whether her lingering thumb sucking habit just gave her salmonella.
Other times the wisdom is obvious, like the other morning when she got up first and decided to make breakfast for everybody. I came down stairs to find her lunch box (because she didn't know where we keep the dishes) in front of my chair at the breakfast table, a handful of cereal and a granola bar sitting inside, and her standing next too it with a big smile, totally proud of herself for making breakfast for daddy.
"Ashley Judd sounds like a miserable person. Thank goodness she's taken herself out of the gene pool."
Boy, did that stand out for me in that article. Notice that none of the women was asked if she had had an abortion.
As for men being asked, how about asking the NFL and NBA ? Just kidding.
I have five kids and am still paying for the education of two of them at the age of 77. I wouldn't have it any other way. They have been all over the world with me.
A few thoughts come to mind.
Quoth Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations."
The stunning levels of self-absorption.
The mind-blowing amounts of spiritual shallowness
I'm glad people like this don't have children.
A few thoughts come to mind.
"Quoth Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations."
The stunning levels of self-absorption.
The mind-blowing amounts of spiritual shallowness
I'm glad people like this don't have children."
What do you think is the correct answer?
It seems to me that questioning why they haven't had children would cause those women to be a little self-centered as they tried to defend themselves.
What surprises me more are actresses who have [non-adopted] kids but I don't recall ever seeing them pregnant despite them working a fairly busy schedule. Then to find out they have several kids!
Then you have those like Phoebe Cates who became full-time moms (it helped that a) she'd already made a bit of money and b) was married to a guy who made even more.)
I think the more interesting (and taboo) question is to ask mothers if they would have done it differently. I am childless by choice and obviously it is a deliberate well thought out decision. On the other hand, how many unplanned and ill conceived pregnancies are there in this world and how many unhappy children are brought to life?
As my husband would say this life is not bad.. you choose to live your life the way you see fit. When the world population as a whole declines and majority women are refusing to bear children, then we might want to ask why. Right now, it is one more societal pressure off the women to do what pleases them. And, women like Althouse may feel like superwomen for having done both and scoff at women who can't do both forgetting that career is not the only consideration for some women.
I thought the old 6 to 12 children per mother standard
is gone in a compromise at 1to 2 children per mother.
No children is missing out.
Modern people are notoriously incapable of multitasking effectively. Their daily regiment of indulging ego and body is a full time job. Unfortunately, our society has chosen to normalize this perspective.
"Let them go, Michael. Your ego will surely survive, and one day, they might thank you for giving them the greatest gift of all: the gift of self independence.
Wouldn't you want that for them, before you and your assets one day leave this world?"
How odd.
I would happily "let them go," but they need help with school loans and getting careers on track. The older three are fine. The youngest is 24 and out of college one year. She has a good job but life for kids is harder due to inflation and other factors that have sharply deteriorated since I left home at 18.
Would you prefer to be left on your own at 24 ? I had no choice but things were easier then. For one example, medical school tuition was $1200/ year. Now it is $50,000. And it's not all inflation.
The only regret I have about my children is that they keep getting older and bigger.
Can't they stop growing and be little forever?
I can't imagine a life without children. It's like living in darkness and one day the sun comes up and it's the first time you've ever seen it. Beautiful.
Having children is like that. Life just isn't worth living without them. They bring such a joy to ones life, it's hard to fathom.
I have a suspicion though on how it all happens.
C.S. Lewis wrote loving someone isn't the same as liking someone. You can dislike those you love. It doesn't take sitting around on the couch trying to generate positive feelings. That's not love. Love is actual acts of kindness towards others. He postulates that if you love (Verb) someone, eventually you'll start to like them. If you mistreat people, you'll hate them.
Well, our children demand our love. They are complete and total selfish beings for the first years of their life. You have to do everything for them. Feed them, hold them, cloth them, provide shelter for them, clean them, etc, etc, etc.
And it's this care that we give to them which is love. And because of all the love we pour into them, we end up liking them and having intense feelings for them.
If we did the same for our fellow human beings the world would be a better place.
Other times the wisdom is obvious, like the other morning when she got up first and decided to make breakfast for everybody. I came down stairs to find her lunch box (because she didn't know where we keep the dishes) in front of my chair at the breakfast table, a handful of cereal and a granola bar sitting inside, and her standing next too it with a big smile, totally proud of herself for making breakfast for daddy.
This is the shit dads live for.
Children are the best blessing we get in this short life, if only for 20+ years before they become independent adult friends.
I recall the worst one of God's Curses in Deuteronomy says, " You shall have children, but not enjoy them."
It would be interesting to see too, how many of those who are rejecting the idea of "having it all" are children from divorced homes, whose family lives were sacrificed for mother (or father's) career goals.
I am one such.
I think most people are some mix of being driven to have and raise children and being driven to achieve in other ways. Even if a person is strongly driven to both, that person must make choices, and I don't think it's true, as some might, that such a person will necessarily be inclined toward the "have it all" route. That person might decide to strive for excellence in one area while setting the other, in some measure, aside. Give up one thing in service to the other thing for a time.
Of course we now live much easier and longer lives than our ancestors, so I wonder if the next cultural experiment might be doing the parenting first and then the careering for people who choose to stay at home. The first experiment was to do the careering first, but that doesn't seem to have worked out very well, and that order is illogical given biological reality. We'll see how these later career starters face their own challenges, and there will be many, in time to come.
Traditionalguy said...
I recall the worst one of God's Curses in Deuteronomy says, " You shall have children, but not enjoy them."
Yeah, pretty sure back in those days children became adults around the age of twelve or so. What does this guy Deuteronomy say about teenagers? And what kind of name is that anyway? They call him "Dude" for short?
"I can't imagine a life without children. It's like living in darkness and one day the sun comes up and it's the first time you've ever seen it."
What he said. But I have to say, I was 50 when my first child was born, and I am afraid I would have been a pretty lousy father when I was younger. So, I can understand a woman's not wanting to have children when she doesn't feel ready. The problem is, biology says she is ready. And biology has been pondering the issue a lot longer than she has.
@ Full Moon...That curse was in Deuteronomy 28:41 which is the Fifth Book of Moses named for containing Moses spoken words from three of his final speeches.
Deuteronomy is said to contain the strongest scriptures written down, and is used by those in the spiritual warfare area when needing an authoritative quote of God's truth to defeat a spiritual foe.
But I wouldn't read it for fun. It is as serious a book as it gets.
Blogger traditionalguy said...
@ Full Moon...That curse was in Deuteronomy 28:41 which is the Fifth Book of Moses named for containing Moses spoken words from three of his final speeches.
Deuteronomy is said to contain the strongest scriptures written down, and is used by those in the spiritual warfare area when needing an authoritative quote of God's truth to defeat a spiritual foe.
But I wouldn't read it for fun. It is as serious a book as it gets.
Out of respect I will not ask if it has pictures.
I will go back to a previous thread and bother "Brian".
Apologies and thanks for the info
pm317 said, "I am childless by choice and obviously it is a deliberate well thought out decision. On the other hand, how many unplanned and ill conceived pregnancies are there in this world and how many unhappy children are brought to life?"
Your choice is not obviously deliberately well thought-out to me. Did you think it out?
Your question about unhappy children betrays sad bias. How many potentially happy children and adults have been killed in the wombs?
I think you are focused on the society at large, not on the individual. Not a bad focus, but a socialist one.
If you don't care about individuals, say so forthrightly. "I don't give a crap about babies!" That would be an honest rallying cry.
1) if they sound defensive it's because the question is asked as though they have to have a reason not to have a child vs I don't want to or mind your business buster.
2) they ask George Clooney all the time. He says no. My bet is he will be 80 and get some 30 year old pregnant.
3) Career is an easy excuse because these people are very successful. Oprah prefers the office over everything else (you don't get her kind of success with out living there) , but it is easier to say that than I have no maternal feelings (the horror!) or need (selfish!).
4) those people who say they feel sorry for other people who don't have children are bullshit. It is more like you want to feel validated somehow and it's phony. I have never found people who say such things to be actually content. When they are not posting such nonsense about how blessed they are online they are bitching.
5) if you had to listen to the girl 3 doors down screaming all day the last 3 years you wouldn't have children either. Oy. When she's happy she's screaming ...and unhappy which is often...blood curdling shrieks (she has lovely patient parents...I could never handle that. I would have given her away). She is in curdling mode and I want to smother her. I also feel sorry for the kid next door whose parents viciously fight all the time. Perhaps they should not have reproduced?
Catherine, your poll of humanity seems to be limited to you.
Your choice is not obviously deliberately well thought-out to me.
Who are you? What do I care what you think (about my choice or how I arrived at it)?
pm317, you should not care about my opinion, but you said something: "I am childless by choice and obviously it is a deliberate well thought out decision."
That is not obvious at all. Maybe it is to you, and maybe you can give reasons. That would not surprise me, but without such reason or argument, your words are meaningless claptrap.
And then you go on about unwanted children. Really, that's a tell.
"those people who say they feel sorry for other people who don't have children are bullshit. It is more like you want to feel validated somehow and it's phony."
Well, maybe. I don't generally feel sorry for people who don't have children, I just feel very glad that I do have children. Even when they are annoying me. But sometimes I see the look a childless, older woman gets, when she looks at my children, and I do feel sorry for her. Deeply sorry, if you'll pardon the expression. I wish that I could do something to ease that pain.
Lotta judgy people in this thread. Some might not realize it. But you know, here's a hint: Don't say stuff like: "If you're not living your life in exactly the way I'm living mine, then your life is not worth living."
That's really quite rude and narrow-minded. Your way is not the only way. Who's being self-centered here?
It's unconscionable to breed, with the number of children who are starving to death in impoverished countries.
Celebrity self-approbation.
We can be thankful for Ashley Judd non-reproductive status. The gene pool is more sound without her contribution.
Bob Ellison - I feel really sorry for you...what is bothering you about the posts that oppose your view? Can you offer valid reasons? They must be well thought out. They don't sound so well thought out to me. I am not sure that having children was right for you...sorry.
I feel really sorry for you....
PS - you have children/I have children - fabulous. Don't judge those who do not. It is none of your business. Seriously. If they don't want to, why should they? Even Althouse. Even it if sounds like they chose career over children, it means they didn't want them. So what?
"I believe the children who are already here are really mine, too."
Can't say I'm too excited about my children belonging to Ashley Judd. But she's a celebrity, so I guess I need to be resigned to the fact that it's not really up to me.
Can't say I'm too excited about my children belonging to Ashley Judd. But she's a celebrity, so I guess I need to be resigned to the fact that it's not really up to me.
Put Ashley's nonsense to the test. Send her the orthodontist's bill.
I can't imagine my life without my kids ... they are grown and now I can't imagine my life without my grandkids.
The best pic I've taken recently that best illustrates why we do this kid-stuff is this ...
How could anyone see that and not want it for themself?
BTW -- the choice to not have children is both modern and easy
The Government makes sure that you are taken care of in your old age by Other.People's.Children.
So why have any yourself?
Darleen - Good for you. Saw the pic. Why? Because they don't.
Frankly, you could do that pic as an uncle or grandpa or friend.
Surely we can at least give the women who have never married such as Condoleezza Rice a pass for not having children.
I became a great great uncle for the third time just this evening.
A lot of these women are lesbians, so now lesbian couples are required to have children too?
@Bob Elison..
I left out the words "for me" or "on my part" as in "obviously it is a deliberate well thought out decision for me (or on my part)" for my life. I am childless by choice -- 'by choice' means that I have thought it through seriously, deliberately and take responsibility for it. Maybe now you will stop harassing me.
Interesting.
Children are the future. Basically what they are saying is "We need no future".
Very lefty, and more's the pity, very much of the West for them.
Not having children is not a moral failure. Fighting those who say it is amounts only to the straw man du jour.
Old-fashioned is not the same thing as unwise.
Freeman Hunt said...
Related: I don't know why having a stay at home dad isn't more popular among career driven women who want children.
****
I'm surprised no one has tried to answer this yet. Easy. To most people, including the career driven woman, a stay at home dad is seen as a freeloader. A married male's job, even in today's "enlightened" society, is supposed to be providing financially for his family. The enlightened may speak in public about how they admire stay at home dads. I have never heard anyone in private express anything but disdain for them.
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