ADDED: I think Oliver wants Scots to vote "no" on independence, but he lays out the reasons for their grievance with the relationship with England and gets the audience identifying with them to the point where they burst into a huge cheer with a big Scottish flag unfurls (at 14:52). The emotions of nationalism are strange and powerful. With the right manipulation, an audience that doesn't even possess that nationality can feel the nationalism of others.
AND: Why do flags have such a powerful effect on the human mind? I'd like to see some serious research on this subject? Did you know that the study of flags is called "vexillology"? Here's the flag of the International Federation of Vexillological Associations:
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John Oliver's face is just so punchable.
So, so punchable.
I just saw that!
My ancestors came over from Scotland in the 1770's so I have an emotional reaction to this: I want an independent Scotland, a tshirt with a plaid unicorn and a scottish flag, and a big glass of whiskey on Thursday. And to revert to the original, Scottish spelling of my last name, just for kicks.
That guy is an idiot. Proud of it too because he knows he doesn't have to think as long as his politics are correct.
The vote ought not to work on a simple majority. You can't undo it.
Very entertaining.
Loved David Cameron's parliamentary reply: "Ask a stupid question..."
And most jaw-dropping factoid: that the independence campaign was 80% funded by a pair of Scottish lottery winners. If true, that's stunning.
Holy Shyte! The 'Better Together' lady ad is astonishing for it's :
A) Blatant sexism
B) Surprising honesty
Being ignorant of the importance of Scotland/England relationship, I was pleased to ask a middle aged , first generation America/ Scot what the repercussions of succession would be.
He said, "Well first of all, they would lose an army".
Only later did I wonder if Scotland would lose the English army. or would England lose Scottish soldiers.
Sometimes ignorance is bliss, other times it is embarrassing.
Could only get to the halfway mark.
Neither clever or funny.
Somewhere in German courses turned up a poem with the proud line written to people back home, "I carry the flag!"
Ich fahre die Fahne, is what I remember. It may not be right. It would have stuck because of the nice use of fahre, travel.
Sheldon Cooper Presents Fun with Flags
http://bigbangtheory.wikia.com/wiki/Sheldon_Cooper_Presents:_Fun_with_Flags
I can't watch this until I get home, but John Oliver has done some brilliant work, his report on Net Neutrality was classic.
Flags, or banners, are signals used in battle. The King's flag must never be lost in battle. Of course our National Anthem is a war ballad about one battle flag.
Scotsmen wearing a kilt is a sight to see. The men in shorts rule has met its match in Scotland. The true Scotsman's thighs are twice as thick as a skinny Englishmen's, and never look like a boy's.
But blowing the bagpipes does sort of look childish.
If this goes through, which I doubt, there's going to have to be a very messy divorce settlement. The Scottish get to keep whisky, golf, and the Bay City Rollers, and the English get to keep hearty breakfasts, gin, and tea. But the real fight will be over who gets to keep James Bond.
And what will we call the remainder of Britain? Would it still be "Great Britain" without Scotland? Could it call itself "United Kingdom" even though it would no longer keep the Scottish crown? For that matter, do the Scots then set up their own monarchy or be a republic?
And how is citizenship determined? Are all residents of Scotland and England--regardless of their place of birth--considered citizens of the country they're resident of? Would either country offer a "right of return" like Israel has?
For those of us who are neither Scottish or British, there are several reasons to be concerned about an independent Scotland. The UK has been the US' most reliable ally, cooperating with America on a a whole host of issues. The UK and American navies help keep the shipping lanes open and free. Both countries have been a force behind the world's gradual move towards freer trade and lower tariffs. Both countries have worked to isolate Iran, North Korea, and Russia.
Will a smaller UK be able to continue with these efforts? The Scots have already indicated they will get rid of any nuclear weapons. Will they maintain a military? If so, will it be allied with the UK and the US or go its own way? The UK has a number of treaty obligations with numerous other nations. Scotland isn't a part to those treaties. Will Scotland claim the right to reject those obligations or will it assume them?
Independence seems to create lots of opportunities for mischief and little potential for upside as far as other countries are concerned.
@Shanna,
Hate to throw water on your parade, but the modern "Scottish" Gaelic is Irish Gaelic and not Scottish at all.
Furthermore, the modern short Scottish kilt, the "Philibeg," was invented by an English ironworks owner around 1720, so that his Scottish employees would not get tangled up in their clothing and hurt themselves in the smelter.
And the Scottish tartans assigned to clans only date from the 1820's and is mostly a bogus nationalistic PR production.
And the northern islands (and maybe the western too) want no part of this and threaten to secede from Scotland and seek re-admission to the United Kingdom as "overseas territories" if this nonsense passes.
If so, they would presumably take their territorial waters and oil production with them, and the U.K. would still have the Scapa Flow nuclear arsenal.
Here is to a labor free England!
Why is Cameron fighting this? I could easily see him being like the Republican party here though... They have no wish for smaller government either.
DKWalser said...
For those of us who are neither Scottish or British, there are several reasons to be concerned about an independent Scotland. The UK has been the US' most reliable ally, cooperating with America on a a whole host of issues.
If you look at the last 100 years, the Aussies have been even better friends than the Brits. Americans fought alongside Aussies in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf Wars and in Afghanistan. Like the Brits, the Aussies are damned good soldiers, too.
Who gets to keep Sean Connery? Will there be a custody battle?
And will they have to re-name Scotland Yard?
When a comment is removed by an author, it would add so much flavor if the message read,
"This comment has been suddenly removed by the author."
It sounds so much more dramatic that way.
FullMoon said...
Sometimes ignorance is bliss...
24/7 man, 24/7
It's turtles all the way down.
Why do flags have such a powerful effect on the human mind?
That's a total mystery to me. I don't find flags stirring or compelling in the least. I find the undue reverence given them by many to be baffling.
The best I can guess is that people invest flags--meaningless rectangles or triangles of patterned cloth--with all the feelings they feel toward that which the flags represent...country, family, favorite sports team, whatever.
This is idolatry.
Cookie, you were just born 200 years too late!
Make that 250.
@Shanna,
Hate to throw water on your parade, but the modern "Scottish" Gaelic is Irish Gaelic and not Scottish at all.
Did I say anything about Gaelic? Or kilts (although you are only talking about the "modern" kilt - quick research says the general idea dates back further and even the modern quilt may not be so easily traced as that)?
As for tartan: "Early Romans talked of the Celtic tribes wearing bright striped clothing - there was no word at that time for chequered. One of the earliest examples of tartan found in Scotland dates back to the 3rd century AD, where a small sample of woollen check known as the Falkirk tartan (now in the National Museum of Scotland) was found."
I am also part Irish. So, save your bubble bursting for someone else. I notice you said nothing about whiskey :)
"I'd be very worried if I saw a man singing the national anthem and waving the flag, sir. It's really a thing foreigners do."
"Really? Why?"
"We don't need to show we're patriotic, sir... We don't have to make a fuss about being the best. We just know."
From The Night Watch by the most beloved living Englishman (citation needed), Terry Pratchett
Wow do I dislike John Oliver. Part of the sneering-is-thinking crowd. Even worse than Stewart.
"Cookie, you were just born 200 years too late!"
I don't understand your joke.
That's a total mystery to me. I don't find flags stirring or compelling in the least. I find the undue reverence given them by many to be baffling.
And there's your Chomskyoid left in a nutshell: making big plans for people they don't even understand.
"That's a total mystery to me. I don't find flags stirring or compelling in the least. I find the undue reverence given them by many to be baffling."
Flags are like any other symbol--they will mean different things to different people. And there's a fine line between "worshipping the flag" and "accepting the flag as a symbol of things you love and admire."
Stylistically, some flags are just plain cool. Look at the flag of Mozambique--an AK-47 right there on the flag! Then there's Libya, which is plain green--they're not trying at all! It's like when they sent the Libyan Betsy Ross to sew it she realized she only had green yarn and said "screw it."
Britain's is nice, though it'll be weird if they have to lose the Scottish St. Andrew's cross. The Scottish flag--a simply "X"--would be pretty neat though. I'd suggest putting a bottle of whisky right in the middle of the design.
The Italian flag seems sort of warm and inviting (mostly because I associate it with pizza places) but it's basically a takeoff on the French flag. And there's a whole lot of countries that seem to have copied one another (Australia/New Zealand, the Scandanavian countries, every country that tried three horizontal or vertical stripes) and then there's Nepal, just trying to be different.
Some flags really are stylishly designed. I think the union jack is one of those.
Not boring like all those two or three colors in a line flags.
The United Kingdom has a number of Constitutional problems, and one stems from the devolved parliaments in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. That leaves the Westminster parliament as both the lawmaking body for England, and for the United Kingdom as a whole.
That structure can't help but promote a feeling of political inequality among the countries that make up the United Kingdom, even though the other 3 countries do send representatives to Westminster.
Let's say that Scotland does vote for independence and withdraws its representatives from Westminster. There might still be an opportunity to negotiate a written Constitution that preserves the United Kingdom as a federal system.
Cookie, you would have had a marvelous time in Paris, Berlin, or St. Petersburg in the middle to late 18th century!
Wow do I dislike John Oliver. Part of the sneering-is-thinking crowd. Even worse than Stewart.
Ditto, I’m starting to think that people who enjoy John Oliver or Jon Stewart are like people who think that sniffing glue makes them smarter when in reality they’re actually dumber than when they started.
"Chequered plaid had been woven for centuries by a thriving industry - but its colourful 'setts' or patterns had been loosely associated with regions, and had not been used by ordinary folk. The most famous of the setts, the black and green tartan of the Campbells, which would be given to the Black Watch, had been known in the trade as 'Kidd No. 155' after a Caribbean planter who ordered it for his slaves.Yet the Highlands regiments and the gathering of 1822 combined to establish the custom of linking each sett with one paticular clan name. They were greatly assisted by the later publication of a finely illustrated but spurious work, the Vestiarium Scoticum (1842), written by two charlatan brothers, the self-styled Sobieski-Stuarts, who held romantic court on the island of Eileann Aigas near Inverness."
(From Norman Davies: Europe - A History, 1996.)
The Scots were not alone about this sort of thing. Inventing national histories and traditions were all the rage in 19th century Europe.
Various standards and pennants had, of course, been used since forever, but the first national flag is the Danish "Dannebrog" which legend says fell from the sky during a battle in Estonia in 1219 and led the Danes to victory.
Unit cohesion is a strong force in desperate battles. The flags and shoulder patches carry a reminder of a tradition of men who died for one another in battles past.
The Scots' klan tartan colors have a similar purpose. The symbols also help men remember group success in battles past.
All this talk of Scottish independence is making me thirsty. As an American with no dog in this fight except a desire to visit there someday and hoping I wouldn't have to change currency between the two countries, I shall celebrate whatever the results of the referendum are with single malt Scotch whisky.
This comment suddenly removed by author, ruefully
"...turning the place into a subarctic Venezuela"
Brando,
Actually, Libya has gone back to its pre-Gaddafi flag.
"Actually, Libya has gone back to its pre-Gaddafi flag."
I'm guessing the need for a new flag was their main reason for revolt!
Wow do I dislike John Oliver. Part of the sneering-is-thinking crowd.
This is now the third "rant" by Oliver I have seen. The others equally praised.
I find him neither funny nor insightful.
One would think that a deadly combination, but it doesn't seem to bother liberals.
"Cookie, you would have had a marvelous time in Paris, Berlin, or St. Petersburg in the middle to late 18th century!"
I still don't understand your joke.
No joke, Cookie. You would have had a marvelous time - provided you had the money or the right introductions, of course.
"This is now the third "rant" by Oliver I have seen. The others equally praised.
I find him neither funny nor insightful."
You're underestimating the power of the English accent. Among American goobers, anything said with an English accent sounds several degrees smarter than it deserves.
N.B.--doesn't work with cockney or midlands brogue.
This donnybrook has been brewing for quite some time. The Scots have even clandestinely trained an astronaut corps for their anticipated space force.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khrpy4V0-U4
A view from the bottom of the Scottish heap (Audio portion NSFW).
Oliver, like his predecessor, oscillates between mildly amusing and outright offensive. That's their range.
You're underestimating the power of the English accent. Among American goobers, anything said with an English accent sounds several degrees smarter than it deserves.
Heh, kind of reminds me of this
Your problem, Cook, and I mean this no more unkindly than I must, is that you love nothing, revere nothing, stand for nothing. You are all opposition to all that you know. In reality you are a nihilist and to be pitied, except that you will keep opening your mouth.
Richard Sharpe: Rise up? Do you really believe men will fight and die for a rag on a pole?
Major Hogan: You do, Richard, you do.
Robert Cook said...
"Why do flags have such a powerful effect on the human mind?
That's a total mystery to me. I don't find flags stirring or compelling in the least. "
"Every Who down in Whoville liked Christmas a lot,
But the Grinch, who lived just north of Whoville, did not.
The Grinch hated Christmas — the whole Christmas season.
Oh, please don't ask why, no one quite knows the reason.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small."
Swallowed the haggis with no problem and choked on the whisky.
"Why do flags have such a powerful effect on the human mind?"
A lot of my favorite art is fiber based: flags, tapestries, quilts, rugs. I get the idolatry complaint, but I think there is a primal beauty in fabric that is independent of that.
Why do flags have such a powerful effect? Could ask the same of the cross, Mecca, monuments, etc. They are all symbols. In the case of national flags, it is group / national pride. Most people that care about that type of thing (myself included) invest in their national flag all of the pride they feel for their country. To them (me) it is the symbol of all that is good about their country. Those that desecrate their nation's flag feel no honor for their country and for what their country stands for / aspires to be.
I give it six months before Scotland comes shuffling back. A black eye, broke, and pregnant begging mum to allowed to come back.
I vote for scotch breakfast tea. Real tea. For real men. In skirts.
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