After blogging this morning about the impending oral argument — here — I listened to it — here — all the way to the end where the state asks the court to reinstate the law today, and I look and see that, in fact, has already happened.
The MJS reports that the court issued an order allowing Wisconsin to enforce the law for the upcoming elections. The court noted the way the Wisconsin Supreme Court's decision "reduces the likelihood of irreparable injury, and... changes the balance of equities and thus the propriety of federal injunctive relief, and... the state's probability of success on the merits."
The judges on the panel were former Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice Diane Sykes along with Frank Easterbrook and John Tinder. At the oral argument today, they were quite skeptical of the power of the district judge to reject the importance of preventing in-person voter fraud.
In the 2008 case upholding the Indiana voter ID law, Crawford, the U.S. Supreme Court had accepted that the state had an important interest in preventing fraud and in promoting public confidence. In the current case, the district judge, Lynn Adelman, held a trial and listened to an expert witness who opined that it's unlikely that anyone would engage in this kind of fraud. Those who are challenging the Wisconsin law want the appeals court to defer to his factfinding, but Sykes and Easterbrook resisted the notion that hearing opinion witnesses could enable a trial judge to supersede the opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.
Go to 43:15 in the audio for this discussion. Sykes says she's not sure that Adelman's findings were "classic factual findings," and Judge Easterbrook then says:
"Judge Sykes just asked a question that bugged me, and maybe we should discuss it more completely, but some of what's going on here seems to be: The Supreme Court said particular things in Crawford. The district judge then holds a trial and says: I find this a fact: that the Supreme Court of the United States is wrong and I enjoin this statute. Is that a proper relation between the Supreme Court and what the Constitution calls 'the inferior courts'?"The lawyer tried to say the district judge wasn't calling the Supreme Court wrong in finding a state interest, but was finding as a fact that the state has no interest, but that's exactly what was bugging Judge Easterbrook. He said:
"Right: The district judge takes testimony from people who disagree with the Supreme Court and says: I credit their testimony, and I therefore find that there isn't an important interest in deterring fraud and public confidence isn't something we should worry about and so on...."The panel is not inclined to defer to Judge Adelman just because he held a trial and found facts. These are not "classic factual findings," and Crawford will dictate the outcome, I predict.
पोस्ट्स
२२८ टिप्पण्या:
228 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»And nobody anywhere will suffer for this decision.
[Lefty Logic]
That thing that can be proven never to have happened because nobody has ever been caught (except the few who have been) that would be impossible to catch without voter ID laws will happen less frequently now.
[/Lefty Logic]
YES. Sorry, Garage, one and done like the rest of us.
ID law should ultimately be nationwide. That ID's are difficult to come by is baloney.
"See, whatever happens can be said to have happened for the reason you've already reasoned is the reason for whatever happens to have happened."
Who will Republicans blame now when they lose an election?
Ever notice how the Lefties never mention the horrors of voter suppression in Indiana [voter ID, 2008] or Georgia [voter ID, 2012}? could be related to the fact that minority turnout has gone up in both states?
Nothing like voter suppression to motivate minorities to get out and vote. Trying to deny an American's right to vote is a huge mistake.
Ha!
Madison Man:
"Who will Republicans blame now when they lose an election?"
Well, there are still bogus prosecutions drummed up for partisan motives, such as John Doe, illegal use of IRS to impede voters, and false memes perpetuated by the media with party bylines.
I will give you credit and assume that you support free elections, rghts?
Agreed, Unknown.
That's why it's important to make sure every person votes once and only once, allowing each person to exercise their civic duty as they will.
It's a good thing nobody is trying to stop deny a person's legitimate (They are who they say they are and can prove it.) vote.
MadisonMan,
A very fair point. But it has not been tried before. Let's give it a try and see what happens.
I predict that the squeals (and subsequent lawsuits) we hear in November will begin to reveal the depth of the actual problem.
The dark night of facisim falls on Wisconsin. Just kidding. Voter ID laws have worked well here in Indiana.
"MadisonMan said...
Who will Republicans blame now when they lose an election?"
What WI election did Republicans blame voter fraud on losing?
When I see evidence from you, or any other taking your position, on how picture ID requirements are unfair in ANY other facet of modern life, then I'll believe you are concerned with voter suppression. Or other than their voting your way do you otherwise actually hate blacks, the poor, and the elderly?
I confess to being mystified by this controversy. I have voted in Missouri for 12 years now and have not heard a yelp about their requirements to show that you are who you are.
Because of my mystificaion, I can only suppose that opposition is based on preserving the opportunity for fraud.
So now all you whiners (and you know who you are), get off your computers, stop planning to move votes in your car trunks to help Al Franken the day after the election, stop bitchin about Scott Walker... Find some voters without an ID and hook them up. Take them where they need to go, help them do what they need to do. Just do it.
I very seriously doubt Al Franken (and his agents) will fail to find a whole bunch of ballots in the trunk of some car if that becomes necessary for a victory in Minnesota.
Will districts in Philadelphia still have more than 100% participation if they have Voter ID laws? Yes. Yes they will.
I'm not sure why MadisonMan thinks Voter ID will solve blatant cheating in machine towns.
40,000 people are registered to vote in both Maryland and Virginia. That is just one place where a search was done. The only safeguard against these people voting twice is to require a state issued ID.
But I bet not one of them has ever voted twice, not one.
Look at the things that brought us Obamacare.
Ted Stevens gets maliciously prosecuted on a bogus indictment brought days before the election by the Holder "Justice" Department.
Al Franken finds 200 votes in the trunk of a car.
Ted Kennedy's democratically elected replacement is never allowed to vote on the ACA.
If you want to make an omelette, ya gotta break some eggs.
It was made clear, long ago, this was a partisan play to limit Democrat turnout. Note the talk of "Lefties" and "minorities" - the targeted constituencies - leaving the merits of (silly whites) wasting our time trying to prevent a non-existent problem.
Whites love them some alternative medicine-type thinking that way. I watch the news or whatever and none of it matters, but whites are all whipped up in a frenzy, with DRUDGE putting links in different colors and whatnot. You'll have a new "concern" tomorrow, just as irrelevant, it'll be gone in a week, too.
Ferguson, Missouri is still up in arms - wha? Forgot about that did you? No longer important to the white gaze? Darren Wilson's luck just ran out with two new witnesses - I thought you cared?
Y'all can stare at blinking lights forever, though,...
Voter ID is a good thing, as long as the required ID is free of charge to everyone in the state. If it was in effect at the time, this law might have prevented that one asshole from voting five times (that we know of) for Scott Walker during the recall elections.
The biggest problem with the current system is that it is too easy for a paper document to be lost, misplaced, or stolen. If you are mugged the night before an election, the thief not only stole your money and credit cards, but also most likely stole your vote as well.
We'll be seeing a big push for microchips implanted under the skin as the official identification of the country, which will solve that dilemma as well as other problems (like illegal immigration and underage drinking) associated with fake identification.
MILWAUKEE (AP) - The district attorney is investigating a report that scores of college students may have cast more than one presidential ballot.
The Marquette Tribune, Marquette University's student newspaper, surveyed 1,000 students and said it found that 174 admitted voting more than once. The newspaper conducted the survey after state Republicans on Friday alleged voting irregularities, including claims that students at Marquette and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee voted more than once.
"It was made clear, long ago, this was a partisan play to limit Democrat turnout."
Made clear by Democrats… to fire up the base.
It's turtles all the way down.
I love how the theoretical problem of a mugging victim on election eve outweighs the loss of franchise for all of the legal votes that are cancelled.
Tell us again about the reparations, Crack...
I love how the theoretical problem of a mugging victim on election eve outweighs the loss of franchise for all of the legal votes that are cancelled
Of course you love it. You're the only one saying such a thing.
Whatever, you implied it.
I am sure that we don't need any checks to make sure these guys don't vote
Ann Althouse,
"Made clear by Democrats… to fire up the base.
It's turtles all the way down."
If you mean The Daily Show, then, O.K., but if you mean the racist they exposed saying that very thing, then I don't get your point.
This was just more racism at work under the heading of "something important"
tim in vermont,
"Tell us again about ending slavery/Jim Crow/defeating the KKK/stopping lynching/ending unfair housing policies/instituting laws to protect my black ass from you/having a black president/reparations, Crack..."
FIFY
Whatever, you implied it
Like, gag me with a spoon, I totally did not imply anything of the sort.
tim in vermont,
"Tell us again about ending slavery/Jim Crow/defeating the KKK/stopping lynching/ending unfair housing policies/instituting laws to protect my black ass from you/having a black president/reparations, Crack..."
It's hard to believe, after perusing that list, that you could doubt it's going it to happen - or that whites can ever claim to be a good/fair/generous/whatever people.
Farrakhan liked to call you devils.
Malcolm, too.
I see where it comes from.
Now go listen to "I Am The Walrus" and THEN come back to deny everything,...
or that whites can ever claim to be a good/fair/generous/whatever people.
Hey Emcee, I'm saying this in a jovial and upbeat tone of voice so please take it as such. Try to keep in mind that just because most of the assholes are white doesn't mean that most whites are assholes.
Madisonfella,
I think about it with every stupid utterance - but we're talking to THE white assholes, so pleaze judge accordingly.
No madisonfella, you didn't imply it, you said it. Period.
7 weeks before an election. Going to be complete chaos. Thank, partisan hack Republican judges. They seem to be everywhere these days.
Just curious, garage and crack, if this is such a concern to your black and Democrat demographics, why didn't your leadership start working on getting everyone ID cards months ago, when you knew that this would be a possibility?
That's rhetorical, of course, because I know that the answer is that you don't really care about individual blacks being able to vote. You just want to use this as an excuse to fire up the base against the Republicans, or to try and justify your tirades against the whites.
You can thank Leftie Adelman not the 7th Circuit for the short notice. Adelman decided his opinion supersedes the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States. What a Leftist tool Adelman is.
In Kenya, the US pays to help Kenyans get a National ID card.
In the US, having an ID is racist? I get the politics, but I don't get how that is really a substantive argument unless it's really a partisan ploy to establish oneself as a partisan for personal gain.
Take the Democrat/Republican element out, no one would have an issue with having an ID. It's all about power. And people like to abuse the poor to keep their own power. Both sides do it. Look at one's situation, look who is in local power. They are the ones who are keeping the status quo, even if they use arguments about other valid ethical issues.
They lie by telling the truth. They keep their power by inciting anger and point that anger always elsewhere. The anger might even be justified, but it's used as a tool by those who who are evil, of every skin color.
Colonialism is wrong, locally and globally. Zimbabwe had a colonial history. The British instituted racist policies. Colonial power ended. Now, it's Mugabe who is feeding of the flesh and souls of the people.
But in Kenya, which has a strengthening economy, they need IDs to vote.
The most important function of a citizen in a Democracy is to vote. If the vote is falsified, or there is fraud, or anything else happens to destroy the integrity of the process, it completely undermines our Democracy.
If, for example, Obama's election wasn't legit, then how could we possibly follow him or accept him as our Representative to the world?
Protecting our voting process is the first job of our politicians.
Three Republican judges just happened to get "picked" to hear arguments. How convient. They didn't even consider merits of the case or the confusion it would cause so close to an election. Just "lol yeah why isn't this law in place lol".
>>Farrakhan liked to call you devils.
Farrakhan also believes aliens are orbiting the earth in a giant spaceship called "The Mother Wheel", ready to kill all the white people, but will spare the black Muslims.
White people, he believes, were invented by an evil black Doctor, 6000 years ago.
So, the fact that a lunatic believes what you believe hardly strengthens your arguments.
"That's rhetorical, of course, because I know that the answer is that you don't really care about individual blacks being able to vote. You just want to use this as an excuse to fire up the base against the Republicans, or to try and justify your tirades against the whites."
You give them too much credit. This is about the insatiable, grasping Democratic political machine encountering obstacles to vote fraud. Nothing else.
whoa, wisconsin turns from blue to red in two years.
It is funny how the people who complain about having to produce an ID for voting can quickly produce one if they need to have alcohol, whether in a bar or at a liquor store.
Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID? Or is their claim purely theoretical?
"garage mahal said...
...or the confusion it would cause so close to an election..."
So we can add "too stupid to learn a new task in 7 weeks" to the list of things Democrats think blacks and the elderly are.
Got it.
If a person must have standing to bring a lawsuit to court, Challenges to Voter ID laws raise a catch 22.
If a person is denied the ability to vote because they dont have an ID, they clearly have the time and ability to bring a lawsuit, a much more involved process that getting an ID. So How can they claim too high of burden to vote, yet bringing suit is well within their constraints of time, ability, and, desire?
No one has ever explained why minorities suffer a greater burden to attain ID. What about their protected minority status is too great of burden, that Whites don't suffer from?
"Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID?"
Bea Bookler, 94, was born one year before the ratification of the 19th Amendment, guaranteeing American women the right to vote.
Today, she seldom leaves her room at the Devon Senior Living Center. She spends her days reading and watching television.The only times she goes out anymore are on rare and special occasions, when her daughter will take her out for lunch. Also, she goes out twice a year to the election polls, which are next door to her home. Bookler is unsteady and shakes during her testimony and says it's just too hard to get around anymore.
Over the years, she has lost her Social Security card and her birth and marriage certificates. While she could sign a form attesting that she has no identification and be granted a special ID used solely for voting, it would still take a trip to PennDOT, something she is physically unable to do.
"It's too hard," she said. "You can see I'm not exactly mobile. I get dizzy and shaky."
http://www.aclupa.blogspot.com/2012/07/voter-id-trial-day-4-real-people-real.html
madson - why doesn't someone drive her there, or set up an appointment for them to come out to where she lives?
Dont need an ID to vote absentee. Just an address. I get about 6 applications mailed to the my house to sign and send in to get an absentee ballot by return mail. Explain again why ID is a burden? When applications for absentee ballots flood your mail box, and if they dont, you can use your Obama phone to call and get on mailed to you.
hmmm?
But an Address can be tied to a live person.
hmmmm?
"Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID?"
Viviette Applewhite is 93-year-old and has voted in nearly every election for the last 60 years. She marched with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in Georgia. She has tried for years to obtain photo ID to no avail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6oetIv0tec
"Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID?"
Despite being a veteran, Larry Butler was unable to obtain the ID required to vote in South Carolina.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ5cKz-bTCA
My apologies to Larrie for misspelling his name.
So the Democrats are saying that due to no one being caught cheating then no cheating was happening even though there was no way to catch the cheaters!
Well we will see where this merry-go-round stops.
"ID law should ultimately be nationwide. That ID's are difficult to come by is baloney."
100 percent right khesanh0802.
"Who will Republicans blame now when they lose an election?"
Hahaha.. MadisonMan, it's the Democrats that will lose. They are the experts of 'the Chicago Way'. Dead people vote all the time in Chicago, and we know who comes from there, right?
Democrats must be allowed to walk the elderly into the voting booth, without photo ID, to help them vote. Right "madisonfella"?
Because you care so much.
Leftists are losing this argument. Watch the EPIC FLAIL!! (Spelled as intended.)
You can always cast a provisional ballot. It is only counted in close elections and the ballot can be verified.
http://gab.wi.gov/clerks/provisional-ballot
But addressing objections is not really what is wanted is it? Dividing and demonizing is the only goal. Painting minorities has hapless dolts that require someone else to watch over them, is just continuation of Democrats condescending and pandering.
"Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID?"
Dorothy Cooper is 96 but she can remember only one election when she's been eligible to vote but hasn't.
The retired domestic worker was born in a small North Georgia town before women had the right to vote. She began casting ballots in her 20s after moving to Chattanooga for work. She missed voting for John F. Kennedy in 1960 because a move to Nashville prevented her from registering in time.
So when she learned last month at a community meeting that under a new state law she'd need a photo ID to vote next year, she talked with a volunteer about how to get to a state Driver Service Center to get her free ID. But when she got there Monday with an envelope full of documents, a clerk denied her request.
That morning, Cooper slipped a rent receipt, a copy of her lease, her voter registration card and her birth certificate into a Manila envelope. Typewritten on the birth certificate was her maiden name, Dorothy Alexander.
"But I didn't have my marriage certificate," Cooper said Tuesday afternoon, and that was the reason the clerk said she was denied a free voter ID at the Cherokee Boulevard Driver Service Center.
http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/oct/05/marriage-certificate-required-bureaucrat-tells/
"Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID?"
At 76, years old, Bettye Jones never imagined she could be denied her right to vote. Active in the Civil Rights movement, she held meetings in her home in support of voting rights. But now, because of Wisconsin's voter ID law, Jones is uncertain as to whether she will ever be able to cast a ballot again.
Jones was born at home in Tennessee during a time when African Americans in the South were denied hospital care. No birth certificate was filed and no evidence exists that she was born. Until now, it never presented a problem. Jones has a current Ohio driver's license and has dutifully voted since 1959. But when she moved to Wisconsin last year, she found she could not get the ID required by the state's new voting law because she could not prove she had ever been born.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judith-browne-dianis/bloody-sunday-then-and-no_b_1324148.html
We need to make it easier to get an ID. If someone is unable to make it, there should be people who make home visits.
Census workers can do it. We can do it for IDs.
This is also not a permanent problem. We need to make sure those on the edges are able to get an ID in the present, but then as people have one earlier in life, they don't need to be 93 and disabled without an ID.
This can easily be incorporated into one form or another of social services. I assume that those who cannot get an ID also are not working, so they're already connected to some social services.
Why don't they do that? Do they not want people to be able to have an ID? Why would that be?
Are people intentionally making barriers in bureaucracy in order to provide barriers to IDs?
Bureaucracy makes it difficult to get an ID, so we think that should open the door for someone to vote in someone else's name.
The argument is on a very binary level, where partisans can manipulate real people for their cause.
Everyone should be able to vote. Everyone should be able to have reasonable access to an ID.
Everyone, after all, should have access to medical care too. How do we know who is getting cared for?
Let's address the underlying issue, and take care of those stories where people can't get an ID.
Gaaaaa!
To be a citizen is to exhibit a little bit of responsibility to enjoy the fruits of our republic.
For the scumbags at the trough demanding the property and treasure if the people that create that wealth at the point of a gun , under the threat if of imprisonment , fines and levies to night want to participate in any way , well...go fuck your selves , you are demanding a civil war. You are beneath any courtesy or respect and must be destroyed.
Just sayin.
To not.
Gaaa !
Madisonfella, I fixed every one of your examples. They get to vote. Please explain the problem.
My wife, who is not "political", votes because she regards it as a civic duty. She's been voting since 1966. Every year since we've been married, she carefully checks her wallet, before we go to the polls, to be sure she has her ID with her. I say, You don't need an ID to vote [This upcoming election is the first one in which an ID will be required], and she says, That's crazy. How can they let you vote if you don't have an ID to prove that you're who you say you are?
Of course she's right. Why should anyone have to debate this? Of course you have to make sure that people who want to vote have an opportunity to get an ID, but to say that before you can impose an ID requirement you have to prove that lack of an ID requirement will result in fraud is absurd.
iowan2, according to your (broken but I figured it out) link nothing is fixed for the people mentioned earlier.
We need a more permanent form of ID. Paper is too fragile for such an important concept.
----Nothing like voter suppression to motivate minorities to get out and vote. Trying to deny an American's right to vote is a huge mistake.
I think minorities participate at higher levels because they know their vote is now underlain by fraud. Its not as much a rigged game so they need to vote where before it was perhaps a joke that someone else was voting for them.
Its great that minority vote totals to up, just like its great that the total of dead voters goes down with Voter ID.
----We'll be seeing a big push for microchips implanted under the skin as the official identification of the country,
Being at heart a fascist Madisonfella indulges is big brother fantasies.
Being at heart a fascist Madisonfella indulges is big brother fantasies
Better tighten that tin foil hat. Big Brother is probably shooting his secret mind control beams into your brain at this very moment.
No interest in helping people get an ID, just want to bitch about and put links on blogs.
No interest in helping people get an ID, just want to bitch about and put links on blogs.
---Better tighten that tin foil hat. Big Brother is probably shooting his secret mind control beams into your brain at this very moment.
Said the guy talking about microchips and who obviously more than casually identifies positively with predawn Swat raids of political opponents.
Who is bitching about anything Steve? A question was asked and it was answered with nary a negative word nor complaint.
And seeing how you've brought it up a couple different times now, exactly how many people have you helped get an ID lately?
Madisonfella said..
One Democratic lawmaker said Friday it appeared the decisions were based on politics, with the department targeting offices for closure in Democratic areas and expanding hours for those in Republican districts."
Whoa, you've sold me on your point of view. I mean really, this is an impartial finding of fact!
So these elderly people when they were spry never had a notion to get a photo id?
Do they survive on charity?
Or just call up for a mail in ballot?
They've never paid prop taxes, own nothing, only worked in the underground economy?
Seeing Red, my MiL is 85, doesn't drive, doesn't have a photo ID, and has never voted since she became a citizen in the early 60s.
She sees that as her problem to take care of if she changes her mind -- which means asking family to help her out.
Suffrage without accountability is a simple fraud. Even second and third-world nations make an effort to ensure the integrity of the democratic process. Some people seem all too eager to marginalize citizenship rights and privileges. And with nearly a $3 trillion welfare economy, there is no logical excuse for anyone to be indigent, homeless, or unidentified.
"ID law should ultimately be nationwide. That ID's are difficult to come by is baloney."
arent states voter id laws required to provide a FREE govt issued voter ID anyway?
I think it should be more difficult to vote, not less. If you don't care enough about the vote to work for it, then don't vote.
I also think certain groups of people should lose their right to vote, or not have it in the first place. Example, if you're too young you shouldn't vote. I'm ok with 17 being the age, and below.
If you've been convicted of a felony, you should lose your right to vote.
If you've got mental issues, like mental retardation, you shouldn't get to vote.
If you're suffering from dementia, you shouldn't get to vote.
The list goes on and on, but put me in the camp of people who thinks voting is so important in a Democracy it can't be wasted or treated frivolously.
"Tell us again about ending slavery/Jim Crow/defeating the KKK/stopping lynching/ending unfair housing policies/instituting laws to protect my black ass from you/having a black president/reparations, Crack..."
Hey! Crack admitted there has been progress in 400 years!
Has anybody seen statistics on how many people of voting age in each ethnic group lack drivers' licenses? Me neither.
Seems like an argument made in good faith would mention that somewhere.
Madisonfella, none of those people are in a unique situation, yet they are unique in not being able to get an ID (according to their claims). You assume the problem is as they say it is, but what of those many thousands with the same back story who do have their IDs?
exhelodrvr1,
"Just curious, garage and crack, if this is such a concern to your black and Democrat demographics, why didn't your leadership start working on getting everyone ID cards months ago, when you knew that this would be a possibility?"
We're expected to know the leadership of the Democrat Party? Right.
"That's rhetorical, of course, because I know that the answer is that you don't really care about individual blacks being able to vote."
No, there's no dedicated race man who's interested in blacks voting - excellent logic.
"You just want to use this as an excuse to fire up the base against the Republicans, or to try and justify your tirades against the whites."
A Republican interested in firing up the Democrat base? More delusional thinking.
You guys seriously can't grasp you've driven the Republican Party away from it's calling, can you? The party of Lincoln and his "black Republicans"? Can't you see you're the problem with your white racist shit we've been fighting for centuries?
You're what's wrong.
Nobody has to try and get blacks to realize that - you did it yourselves,...
Paddy O,
"In Kenya, the US pays to help Kenyans get a National ID card."
Which has to do with American history how?
"In the US, having an ID is racist? I get the politics, but I don't get how that is really a substantive argument unless it's really a partisan ploy to establish oneself as a partisan for personal gain."
That's because you're being ahistorical.
A country filled with imbeciles pretending we have no history is committing suicide,...
DanTheMan,
"The fact that a lunatic believes what you believe hardly strengthens your arguments."
White killers calling others lunatics is hilarious. Read the story of Claude Neal and tell me how crazy Farrakhan is by comparison.
Oh, so now I'm a white killer?
I've never killed anyone, but to raving lunatics like yourself, facts hardly matter.
madisonfella,
"Have the Democrats ever produced a real, live person who was actually unable to obtain a voter ID?"
While you're doing yeoman's work, why is that even relevant? As was pointed out in the The Daily Show segment, we're talking about 1 or 2 votes per election. Out of thousands, or millions. And these guys are acting like the world's coming to an end (Apocalyptic thinking). The ploy is as old as Jim Crow.
It's bullshit racist crap and nothing more,...
DanTheMan,
"Oh, so now I'm a white killer?
I've never killed anyone, but to raving lunatics like yourself, facts hardly matter."
I repeat:
Read the story of the white mob that killed Claude Neal and tell me how much of a "lunatic" Farrakhan is by comparison.
That's the "culture" you're defending,...
Our cut and paste race scholar turns to the ultimate authority, Jon Stewart. Beats reading an entire book. Yeoman's work, indeed.
I think the plan is for even stupid old white people to have to show ID before they vote at the polling place they have miraculously found their way to.
Paddy O,
"We need to make it easier to get an ID."
No, we need to suppress the vote before they can.
Aren't you paying attention?
I haven't read the Wisconsin law, but I think it applies to white people too. Possibly not, but I think we would have heard. Maybe from Jon Stewart.
Paddy O,
"Bureaucracy makes it difficult to get an ID, so we think that should open the door for someone to vote in someone else's name."
1 or 2 votes out of thousands or millions,...
The Democrats down here in Ga are under investigation for falsifying voter registrations. More than one or two.
Jon Stewart is your go to guy for statistics. If you are an idiot, Jon is your source of the news.
The Godfather,
"Of course she's right. Why should anyone have to debate this?"merican?
Because whites have a history of using this very ploy to suppress the vote during Jim Crow. Duh.
Don't any of you understand that? Haven't you looked at the history of this country, or do you just "think" about shit and declare it good?
This is a Jim Crow measure, revived to suppress the vote - how is suppressing the vote American?
Whites have suppressed driving in every state. I think. I would have to check with Jon Stewart but I think they have.
Only one or two whites out of millions would know that Jim Crow was not a brand of whiskey. Per Jon Stewart.
Jim Crow laws were not aimed at whites. Voter ID laws are aimed mainly at whites since they are the majority of voters, the majority of the population.
To equate the two you have to be an idiot.
Michael,
"Our cut and paste race scholar turns to the ultimate authority, Jon Stewart. Beats reading an entire book. Yeoman's work, indeed."
Dude, if you don't like the internet, leave. Cut and paste is what we do online. How many books on American history have you read in the last month - especially as pertains to blacks? None, I bet. I've read about seven. Currently, it's "American Nightmare: The History of Jim Crow" and "Autobiography Of A people: Three Centuries Of African American History Told By Those Who Lived It".
I don't read? How about you? Who's really the uninformed asshole here?
"I think the plan is for even stupid old white people to have to show ID before they vote at the polling place they have miraculously found their way to."
Yep - whites always think we'll do to them what they did to us.
Just sick puppies, white folks,...
Michael,
Sick puppies:
You declare I don't read and TO YOU that means I don't read.
Weird how the white mind "works"....
"I don't read? How about you? Who's really the uninformed asshole here?"
I own more books than you have opened. And have read many more than I own. And as to the latter question, why you are. Very clearly. You make it plain.
I seriously doubt you have read those books from front to back.
I donated about five hundred books by and about African Americans to Lemoyne-Owen College about forty years ago. I had read them.
Michael,
"I seriously doubt you have read those books from front to back."
And that makes it true!
The white mind at work,...
Michael ,
"I donated about five hundred books by and about African Americans to Lemoyne-Owen College about forty years ago. I had read them."
I seriously doubt you did that,...
"A country filled with imbeciles pretending we have no history is committing suicide,..." Common Corps AP History eliminates the pretense.
"Paper is too fragile for such an important concept."
Yes, but not nearly as fragile as an IRS hard drive. Funny, but when I began a job at Vanderbilt University in 1994, they insisted I show them my birth certificate (a copy of which I then had to obtain from the Commonwealth of Kentucky, a process itself requiring more than simply asking "please?"). Without proof I was legally entitled to work in the U.S., they assured me I would not be receiving a paycheck at the end of the month. I wonder if they're still oppressing people so at Vandy?
"Just sick puppies, white folks,..."
I've always enjoyed your comments, even lately. But statements such as this are plainly and objectively racist.
So we can add "too stupid to learn a new task in 7 weeks" to the list of things Democrats think blacks and the elderly are.
No, simpleton. It's because 53 days before an election clerks aren't going to be able to retool in time. They aren't trained for this. Voter are uninformed. There was a trial run in 2012 and it was a complete clusterfuck. Some rural DMVs are only open a few days from now until the election. These assholes make me physically ill.
Since the Europeans are superior to us in nearly every way, why not survey their election observers to see what they think about voter ID? After all, they live longer, have cheaper healthcare, shorter work weeks, more vacation, the trains run on time, etc. And who better than election observers to say what should or should not be allowed for an election? They are, after all, experts in the field. Surely they can help us sick puppies through our mess.
"There was a trial run in 2012 and it was a complete clusterfuck. Some rural DMVs are only open a few days from now until the election. These assholes make me physically ill."
I can see why. They had 2 years to straighten out problems they knew existed but failed to do so. It's almost as though they assumed all along that the courts would never actually make them do this. Which was a really stupid assumption.
"garage mahal said...
No, simpleton. It's because 53 days before an election clerks aren't going to be able to retool in time. They aren't trained for this. Voter are uninformed. There was a trial run in 2012 and it was a complete clusterfuck. Some rural DMVs are only open a few days from now until the election. These assholes make me physically ill."
LOL. Complete clusterfuck? I walked in. They asked for my photo ID. I gave it to them. They gave me my ballot. I voted.
Really. Not. That. Hard.
Of course, I'm white, not that old, and not poor.
What rural DMV's are open only a few days from now until the election? More importantly, what is a "few". Because the definition to those of us who are fluent in English is "a small number, a handful, one or two, a couple, two or three;"
Let's go with the largest number, a "handful", which would be "5". What DMV(s) is open only five times, or less, in the next six weeks?
hey had 2 years to straighten out problems they knew existed but failed to do so.
Who is "they"? The people that run this state?
>>"Just sick puppies, white folks,..."
This is Althouse's Affirmative Action Plan on display.
It's really bigotry, holding a black poster to a MUCH lower standard because he's black.
No white poster could say about blacks anything remotely like what Crack says about white people and not get banned.
"garage mahal" thinks government employees that "aren't trained for this" can fix the problem that "(v)oters are uninformed.
That is a wonderful encapsulation of the beliefs of Democrats overwhelming experience and common sense.*
And I'm guessing the answer is even more government.
*altogether uncommon, sadly
madisonfella said...
Ruthelle Frank, 84, of Brokaw, .... Under Wisconsin’s law, she is unable to obtain an ID needed to vote.
False!
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/05/381885/wisconsin-voter-id-law-may-force-84-year-old-woman-to-pay-200-to-get-a-voter-id/
++
"Though [Ruthelle] Frank never had a birth certificate, the state Register of Deeds in Madison has a record of her birth. It can generate a birth certificate for her — for a fee. Normally, the cost is $20.
“I look at that like paying a fee to vote,” Frank said.
And for Frank, that might not be the end of it. The attending physician at Frank’s birth misspelled her maiden name, which was Wedepohl. To get a birth certificate that has correct information, she will have to petition a court to amend the document — a weeks-long process that could cost $200 or more."
++
So her real, and solvable, problem is that a doctor screwed up.
What rural DMV's are open only a few days from now until the election?
I just picked one at random. Ft. Atkinson
Hours
Monday: Closed
Tuesday: Closed
Wednesday: Closed
Thursday: Special Rules - 2nd and 4th Thursday of the month 8:15 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
Friday: Closed
Saturday: Closed
Sunday: Closed
Open a total of 3 days before the election, 8:15-4:30 during week hours only.
1 or 2 votes out of thousands or millions,...
Or thousands out of millions. Without IDs, who knows. We can all use numbers to make us sound right, but it's not a fact.
The point is, we use numbers for reasons other than finding solutions that actually help people. We use numbers to secure power and dominance of those who are using us to secure their power and dominance. Yeah, blacks have been on the receiving end of evil in America. They should want protection from corruption precisely because of it. Those in power use corruption to make sure the powerless stay there, even as they keep the poor angry, always using them to make sure more corruption continues.
In Kenya, they require IDs. Why is that? Why can the US pay for 500,000 IDs there, but not help those here who can't get one? The US can, but there's another reason. There are people who don't want to know who is voting and how many times. And I'll guarantee there have been votes cast in the name of those who are black by someone other than that person.
Messing around with how votes are counted has historically been the way the poor are kept in their poverty. A person doesn't really count, someone else will vote for them, in their name. That's what voter ID prevents.
Racism is evil. There are historic and present evils that should be addressed. One of those has been how voting corruption is used by the very politicians who say they are the side of the poor. It happens all over the world. That's why all over the world, those who are finding their way out of corruption have Voter ID laws. Because corruption always hurts the poor the most, whether it's 1 vote, 10 votes, or 1100 votes.
And we simply have no idea how many votes such corruption steals.
garage mahal said...
There was a trial run in 2012 and it was a complete clusterfuck. "
This BTW is compete bullshit. This from the Wisconsin State Journal"
"Local election officials reported no problems enforcing the new law as people in about 520 of Wisconsin’s 1,850 cities, villages and towns voted on local races. In Dane County, they cast ballots in a judicial primary, while some also winnowed the candidates for two County Board seats and weighed in on a school referendum."
"The smooth start to the law was good news for many of the state’s clerks who worked to prepare voters for the changes."
Too bad. So sad.
Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/few-issues-reported-as-primary-election-day-provides-voter-id/article_e99451a0-5cf5-11e1-932f-001871e3ce6c.html#ixzz3DCg2mXKp"
"garage mahal said...
What rural DMV's are open only a few days from now until the election?
I just picked one at random. Ft. Atkinson
Hours
Monday: Closed
Tuesday: Closed
Wednesday: Closed
Thursday: Special Rules - 2nd and 4th Thursday of the month 8:15 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
Friday: Closed
Saturday: Closed
Sunday: Closed
Open a total of 3 days before the election, 8:15-4:30 during week hours only."
They can go to Watertown's, which is just a few minutes away, and is open 7 times before the election, or Madison East, which is open daily between now and then.
Next?
madisonfella said...
Carl Ellis, 52, is a U.S. Army veteran living in a homeless shelter in Milwaukee. His only photo ID is a veteran ID card, which is not accepted under the law.
False!
http://www.kenoshanews.com/news/veteran_says_getting_state_id_took_2_years_474154874.html
++
[Carl Ellis] said he didn’t have a driver’s license, attributing that to his alcoholism, and that while he had a Social Security number he didn’t have a Social Security card. He also didn’t have his Illinois birth certificate and couldn’t afford to pay $15 for a replacement.
Ellis said that when he tried to get a state ID from a Department of Motor Vehicles office in Milwaukee, he hoped his military ID and Social Security number would suffice. Instead, he was told he needed to get a birth certificate or driver’s license. Because of his alcoholism, he didn’t want to make the effort.
++
Correction, Watertown's DMV is open 15 times before the election, and on different days as Fort, so that provides 18 opportunities to get an ID. Now I doubt that there is much need, so lines will be short.
Here are Watertown's DMV hours:
Hours
Monday: 7:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.
Tuesday: Closed
Wednesday: 7:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.
Thursday: Closed
Friday: Closed
Saturday: Closed
Sunday: Closed
Which is fine if you have a car, are able to drive, and don't work. A "few minutes" = 29 min drive. Dane County is the only county in the state that I'm aware of that has a DMV open on weekends.
Here is a really crazy idea. Set up a booth at the polling place where people without picture ID can get picture ID. They would present the same documents they would have to produce at the DMV and they get an ID on the spot. Then they vote. The polling places are always open on voting days.
"It's turtles all the way down."
Except when it's psychotic black racists all the way down.
"Michael said...
Here is a really crazy idea. Set up a booth at the polling place where people without picture ID can get picture ID. They would present the same documents they would have to produce at the DMV and they get an ID on the spot. Then they vote. The polling places are always open on voting days."
There are thousands of polling places in WI...almost 200 alone in Milwaukee. Polls are open from 7AM to 8PM. So two shifts. The IDs are PHOTO IDs...those camera systems would be expensive, and need to be networked to the DMV system.
Not a solution.
Why are IDs tied to driving? That's the curious thing.
What makes the DMV the official arbiter of who someone is? What rule makes them the only source of an ID. Make an ID that is not coupled with driving privileges or interacting with them.
That seems like that's something state legislatures can do.
My mom can't drive, can't even walk, and she has an ID. If people care about people, they provide services. Why is it we can hear stories about people who don't have an ID, clearly someone knows who and where they are and spent time with them, but no one will take the same time to provide access to getting an ID?
There are clearly easy ways of addressing this so that the concerns of both sides are addressed. Making it difficult to get an ID is wrong. Allowing someone to vote without an ID is wrong.
Two wrongs makes good election fodder for corrupt politicians.
"garage mahal said...
Which is fine if you have a car, are able to drive, and don't work. A "few minutes" = 29 min drive. Dane County is the only county in the state that I'm aware of that has a DMV open on weekends."
If you work you have a photo ID. Unless you're illegal. But then again they can't vote...correction, they aren't supposed to vote.
You don't need a car or be able to drive, you need to be able to get a ride. Which would be true if the DMV was open every fucking moment of every day. You need to get there.
"Paddy O said...
Why are IDs tied to driving? That's the curious thing."
They aren't. DMV's are used because the vast majority of citizens do drive, so it's easy and cost effective to incorporate those facilities to the small amount of people who don't.
"They aren't. DMV's are used"
So, they aren't tied to DMVs, but they are tied to DMVs?
Passports are also IDs. But they are expensive.
The bureaucracy has an investment in both voter corruption and controlling ID access. That's a bad combination that both sides should agree on fixing. The only losers? Politicians and bureaucrats. Win, win, win for everyone else!
I just got a call from the Labor Temple asking if I wanted to volunteer to work for Mary Burke. I politely declined. Signing off, the woman said "Don't be afraid to vote".
Then, two minutes later she called again, not realizing she had just called me. I let her go through her speel, declined again, and then asked her what she meant by "Don't be afraid to vote". "Oh, I guess I won't add that anymore" was her response.
What in the hell was "Don't be afraid to vote" supposed to mean?
Curious George
For the five or six people who needed them? Statewide?
"Paddy O said...
"They aren't. DMV's are used"
So, they aren't tied to DMVs, but they are tied to DMVs?"
You said to driving. It isn't. Utilizing DMV's, which are necessary because people drive, is the most cost efficient way to provide not driving ID's.
You're an idiot. Seriously.
"You're an idiot. Seriously."
Really. That's where you go? That's sad. The internet makes me sad for people sometimes.
Department of Motor Vehicles. DMV. Driving.
Tied to driving. That's pretty much what the DMV does. Go to the place that regulates driving in order to be able to vote.
It's like getting your passport at the airport. No, not even that.
The funny, and sad, thing is that I entirely support IDs for voting. You get thrown off your little rhythm and then resort to childish name-calling. What a monkey.
garage mahal said...
Here are Watertown's DMV hours:
Hours
Monday: 7:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.
Tuesday: Closed
Wednesday: 7:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.
Thursday: Closed
Friday: Closed
Saturday: Closed
Sunday: Closed
Watertown has a population of approximately 24,000 people.
How many locations and available hours would be necessary to "properly" service this town and immediate surrounding area in Jefferson and Dodge counties with a population that small and still be as "efficient" as it might be to save the taxpayers money?
"is the most cost efficient way"
No, it's the laziest way. I'm not sure anyone would suggest a DMV is cost efficient.
We get passports other places. That's a form of ID as well. So, it's just the way things have been done, so that's the way things are?
Or wait, is this also just partisan stuff? Then use silly names that mean nothing just to add some sprinkles on top?
That doesn't really advance the conversation, though it does help a person to feel better about themselves, I suppose. It's okay, your argument is good, you get a gold star. Everyone's argument on this thread is good, gold stars for everyone.
Paddy O: "The funny, and sad, thing is that I entirely support IDs for voting. You get thrown off your little rhythm and then resort to childish name-calling."
You'd better watch yourself mister. I just finished watching The Quiet Man again and I'll not be having you besmirch the good name of (insert name of whomever here)!!!
Spits in hands and looks around anxiously....
Cast a provisional ballot.
Those provisional ballot will be counted if their numbers would alter the outcome of an election.
The problem is, those provisional ballots would then have names and addresses attached to them and the existence of those people would be easy to verify.
Very hard to rig an election if any interested parties could easily track down the small amount of provisional electors that would alter an outcome.
What makes DMV employees especially able to process IDs? Do they have FBI background training? Why can't that be done at a city hall? Or courthouse? Non-driving IDs. Takes a couple minutes and a surplus military camera. Most people drive, so the cost of providing non-driving IDs to those who need them would be pretty much hardly anything.
But no, we'd rather argue about mutually opposing issues instead of solving the problem, because solving a problem might mean someone we don't like benefits.
"Paddy O said...
"is the most cost efficient way"
No, it's the laziest way. I'm not sure anyone would suggest a DMV is cost efficient.
We get passports other places. That's a form of ID as well. So, it's just the way things have been done, so that's the way things are? "
Passports are Federal. And they take weeks to get. DMV's are already in place, have all the necessary staffing, equipment, and connections to state networks.
Again, you really are dumb.
"Michael said...
Curious George
For the five or six people who needed them? Statewide?"
I have no idea what you mean by this. Your idea was to have provide photo ID's at polling places.
Drago, heaven forbid that I would dare besmirch the good names of any of the fine ladies and gentleman hereabouts this decorous salon. Forgive, if you will, any perceived presumption on my part in case any of my utterances were untoward.
you work you have a photo ID
The I-9 form lists many more options for accepted ID (ironically enough, a voter's registration card is one of them) than what the Republicans decided are allowed to be accepted in Wisconsin.
This is why we need to go to one national ID, such as a microchip which is issued at birth and can not be removed from the citizen. As it has been repeatedly shown, it is far too easy to lose or misplace these vital documents that are required for living in our modern day society.
Paddy O said...
Drago, heaven forbid that I would dare besmirch the good names of any of the fine ladies and gentleman hereabouts this decorous salon. Forgive, if you will, any perceived presumption on my part in case any of my utterances were untoward
Well then, let's be hearing no more of that kind of talk, else you'll be speaking to the fists on one squire drago.
Now theres a good lad... and wheres me black and tan?
"Again, you really are dumb."
No. I just see that there are ways of addressing problems beyond the conventional impasses.
Concrete thinking can only think in binary terms so must defend those established positions, even to the point of being dismissive to any alternative solution. "People have never done such a thing," they say, "to propose something new is dumb, because the smart people have already thought of everything for us!"
----Tied to driving. That's pretty much what the DMV does. Go to the place that regulates driving in order to be able to vote. ---
Actually, the DMV pretty much focuses on identifying people not driving perse
Identifying if they have the skills and knowledge sure, but very importantly, whether they have the privilege of driving. Identifying criminal violators, identifying citizens sanctioned by courts. And the WI government LONG AGO set up the provision of ID cards for those who don't drive.
In business we call that kind of ability to focus on a function a "core competence"
So you denigrate the DMV as some kind of "driving office". That simply is denying reality.
And of course to support your position you must be in denial that drivers licenses are the universal governmental identity instrument. The only alternative is a passport. Does anybody really need to be reminded how many times a day one shows their drivers license to identify themselves?
Are you advocating that we establish a new agency just for identification cards?
But this all reminds me that under crooked Jim Doyle it was impossible to get an appointment for a driving test. I had to drive my son from Waukesha to Baraboo just to get an appointment. Now, knowing how manipulative and power-hungry liberals are, I wonder if Jim Doyle was trying to suppress the white vote by making getting drivers licenses hard to get?
Those provisional ballot will be counted if their numbers would alter the outcome of an election
They will not be counted at all unless the person returns within 5 days with the required paperwork or documents.
"And they take weeks to get."
It takes about 3-6 weeks to get a photo license in the State of California.
Raleigh, N.C. – House Speaker Thom Tillis (R-Mecklenburg) and Senate Leader Phil Berger (R-Rockingham) issued a joint statement Wednesday in response to more alarming evidence of voter error and fraud discovered by the North Carolina State Board of Elections.
Initial findings from the Board presented to the Joint Legislative Elections Oversight Committee today show:
765 voters with an exact match of first and last name, DOB and last four digits of SSN were registered in N.C. and another state and voted in N.C. and the other state in the 2012 general election.
35,750 voters with the same first and last name and DOB were registered in N.C. and another state and voted in both states in the 2012 general election.
155,692 voters with the same first and last name, DOB and last four digits of SSN were registered in N.C. and another state – and the latest date of registration or voter activity did not take place within N.C.
Additionally, during an audit of death records from the Department of Health and Human Services, the Board discovered:
50,000 new death records that had not previously been provided to the State Board of Elections.
13,416 deceased voters on the voter rolls in October 2013.
81 deceased voters that had voter activity after they died.
http://philberger.com/news/entry/tillis-berger-issue-joint-statement-on-newly-discovered-alarming-evidence-of-voter-error-and-fraud
madisonfella: "They will not be counted at all unless the person returns within 5 days with the required paperwork or documents."
Well, now you know how overseas military personnel feel about their ballots often not being counted at all or just set aside for some esoteric rule that should only apply within the states.
But hey, ever since 2000 we've seen precisely what the dems really think about those ballots.
And it "ain't" exactly "inclusive".
CINCINNATI - A long-time poll worker who admitted to illegal voting was sentenced to five years in prison Wednesday and received a rebuke from the judge, who cited her criminal past.
Melowese Richardson, 58, pleaded no contest to four counts of illegal voting in 2009, 2011 and 2012. One count charged her with voting for her sister, who is in a coma. Four other counts were dropped in exchange for Richardson's plea.
http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/melowese-richardson-former-poll-worker-to-be-sentenced-on-four-counts-of-voter-fraud
So you denigrate the DMV as some kind of "driving office". That simply is denying reality.
No, it's not denigrating. I have had good experiences at the DMV for the most part. I'm saying that if one argument against IDs is that some people have difficulty getting to a DMV, there are many other ways this can be accomplished.
We get all sorts of other legal documentation in civil buildings like courthouses and city and county government offices.
DMVs also have been known to abuse authority, like suspending licenses for people who have been found innocent of drunk driving, becoming their own court. So, they're not perfect. And they're also not uniquely capable. They are designed to deal with the use of motor vehicles, which are usually driven. Extra services may be offered but need not be limited to an agency whose primary mission is to show that people are capable of operating said motor vehicles.
Again, not because the DMV is evil, but because access to an ID should be more widely available, thus undercutting arguments against a national ID.
What's weird is that never, ever in my life have I heard people actually defending the DMV. Hooray for bureaucracy! is a weird conservative position to take. Unless it's just partisan for its own sake, then it makes sense.
And Unknown, read my first comment on this thread. I absolutely, entirely believe in the use of IDs for voting.
I just think that if someone can't get an ID, that's not an argument against using IDs for voting, I think that's an idea for expanding access to getting an ID, even if that means some people would lose out on spending their morning at a DMV office.
" Paddy O said...
"And they take weeks to get."
It takes about 3-6 weeks to get a photo license in the State of California."
You get them same visit in WI. At a DMV. I just got mine...15-20 minutes. Might take an hour if things are busy.
Mississippi NAACP leader sent to prison for 10 counts of voter fraud
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/29/mississippi-naacp-leader-sent-to-prison-for-10-counts-of-voter-fraud/#ixzz3DDPBg8qP
While NAACP President Benjamin Jealous lashed out at new state laws requiring photo ID for voting, an NAACP executive sits in prison, sentenced for carrying out a massive voter fraud scheme.
In a story ignored by the national media, in April a Tunica County, Miss., jury convicted NAACP official Lessadolla Sowers on 10 counts of fraudulently casting absentee ballots. Sowers is identified on an NAACP website as a member of the Tunica County NAACP Executive Committee.
Sowers received a five-year prison term for each of the 10 counts, but Circuit Court Judge Charles Webster permitted Sowers to serve those terms concurrently, according to the Tunica Times, the only media outlet to cover the sentencing.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/29/mississippi-naacp-leader-sent-to-prison-for-10-counts-of-voter-fraud/#ixzz3DDP7E2fk
now you know how overseas military personnel feel about their ballots often not being counted at all or just set aside for some esoteric rule that should only apply within the states.
Already know, first hand, how it feels to jump through hoops and fight state bureaucracy while trying to vote when stationed overseas. Which is why I wouldn't wish that mess on anyone, especially those without as many resources that were available to me at the time.
Former Cameron County Woman Convicted of Voter Fraud
BROWNSVILLE, TX—Sonia Leticia Solis, 55, has entered a plea of guilty to voting more than once in connection with the 2012 primary runoff election held in Cameron County on July 31, 2012, announced United States Attorney Kenneth Magidson.
The election included candidates running for the U.S. House of Representatives.
Solis resided in Brownsville during the election and obtained multiple mail-in ballots by forging applications on behalf of individuals she represented to be disabled.
U.S. District Judge Hilda Tagle, who accepted the guilty plea, has set sentencing for February 5, 2014, at which time Solis faces a possible federal prison sentence of up to five years and a maximum $10,000 fine.
This case was investigated by the FBI and is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorney Bill Hagen.
http://www.fbi.gov/sanantonio/press-releases/2013/former-cameron-county-woman-convicted-of-voter-fraud
Bullhead City woman convicted of voter fraud
They say that voter fraud is a myth; it doesn’t really happen. They say that voter fraud is a construct designed by conservatives to specifically support the voter identification laws and disenfranchise certain voters.
Carol Hannah of Bullhead City has been convicted of a Class 5 felony for voting twice in the 2010 General Election. Hannah voted in Mohave County, Arizona and Adams County, Colorado.
Voter registration records, compared through the Interstate Crosscheck Program, indicated Hannah, a registered republican, received an early ballot from Colorado at her Bullhead City mailing address and returned it to Adams County election officials on October 23, 2010. Shortly thereafter, Ms. Hannah voted at a polling place in Bullhead City on November 2, 2010; a violation of Arizona Revised Statutes § 16-1016(2) and 42 U.S.C. §1973i.
- See more at: http://www.arizonadailyindependent.com/2014/05/07/bullhead-city-woman-convicted-of-voter-fraud/#sthash.E8082Y4e.dpuf
Milwaukee man pleads guilty to five counts of voter fraud
A Milwaukee man pleaded guilty Monday to illegally voting five times last year in West Milwaukee, when in fact he did not have residency there.
Leonard K. Brown, 56, still faces a charge of voting twice in the November presidential election and making a false statement to an election official on election day. Those cases have been rescheduled for trial in January. His sentencing on the five convictions resulting from Monday's pleas will be scheduled sometime after that trial.
Brown was among 10 people charged in March with a variety of charges related to voter fraud. He is charged with voting twice in the Nov. 6 election — in person in Milwaukee on that date and by absentee ballot in West Milwaukee four days earlier.
The guilty pleas involved votes in West Milwaukee in five prior elections. Brown was convicted of five felonies and now is prohibited from voting until his civil rights are restored.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/milwaukee-man-pleads-guilty-to-five-counts-of-voter-fraud-b99119682z1-227686051.html
-----because access to an ID should be more widely available, thus undercutting arguments against a national ID.
because access to an ID should be more widely available so there is EVEN more opportunity to cheat.
http://www.quora.com/Drivers-Licenses/How-easy-is-it-to-create-a-fake-drivers-license
---Hooray for bureaucracy! is a weird conservative position to take. Unless it's just partisan for its own sake, then it makes sense.
Actually it was more like ""(slaps head) ..only a lefty could come up with the idea of yet another ponderous bureaucracy to handle identification processes with the attendant multiplication of ways to f' it up.""
Like "unknown" has just said, driver's licenses and other paper IDs are simply too easy to forge. We need to get in step with the modern era and start using the better tools that are now available.
One person-one permanent ID. Issued at birth or naturalization and can not be transferred, stolen, or removed. That would solve most of the problems that have been brought up so far.
You get them same visit in WI. At a DMV.
That's great! Which is why our own experiences of access are not necessarily universal to everyone. If a person doesn't have a car, getting a ride or riding a bus or such can take half a day or more. I've done that sort of thing, it's crazy how long simple tasks can take even if it goes fast once you are there.
I wish CA was more efficient. So, that's my experiences talking about the DMV, where I've waited 3 hours to get to a window.
Paddy is considered a lefty?!
Good God! Do any of you even know that that word means?
"yet another ponderous bureaucracy"
Now, here we're getting to some key issues. That's a great argument.
I suggest we don't add another ponderous bureaucracy, but instead add non-driving ID access to other established bureaucracies. If you have a driving license you would not be able to receive a non-driving ID, and that would allow local or state or county offices to provide access.
If I'm not mistaken, it has been a while, a person needs an ID for jury duty. So, a person without an ID can get ID through the courthouse. Give an extra duty to someone who may see 3 or 4 people a week for this short task.
Forging IDs definitely becomes an issue, but database and uniformity of production (we're mailed our licenses here in CA, so a different office could work with the same producer), would alleviate that. And, it's also a fact, that people have fake IDs already, so it's not like it would be a new problem with expanded access.
Again, require IDs, but make access easier to undercut any and all arguments against. The sanctity of the vote is worth a small increase of a budget item, if it would even take that.
"Paddy is considered a lefty?!"
I haven't been around a lot lately, so newer people, I guess. *Shrugs*
"That's great! Which is why our own experiences of access are not necessarily universal to everyone"
Many people are have no empathy whatsoever for anyone else at all. It isn't their fault, empathy is something you either have or you don't - it isn't a skill that can be taught. It isn't normally a problem, but it does make it difficult when those type of people are told that different people have different experiences. They simply can't imagine how things could be any different for anyone else, because they are unable to put themselves in anyone else's shoes.
Again, there is no shame in such a thing (Which, funny enough, the concept of "shame" also seems to befuddle those lacking in empathy) because it is something you are most likely born with.
---Forging IDs definitely becomes an issue, but database and uniformity of production (we're mailed our licenses here in CA, so a different office could work with the same producer), would alleviate that.
You simply do not understand managing complex processes.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- More Americans are being erroneously killed off by the Social Security Administration every day.
Of the approximately 2.8 million death reports the Social Security Administration receives per year, about 14,000 -- or one in every 200 deaths -- are incorrectly entered into its Death Master File, which contains the Social Security numbers, names, birth dates, death dates, zip codes and last-known residences of more than 87 million deceased Americans. That averages out to 38 life-altering mistakes a day.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/17/pf/social_security_deaths_mistakes/index.htm
Denied credit? Maybe you're dead
Rejected for a loan because your credit history was shut down? It might be because the credit bureaus think you're dead.
About 1,000 people per month get mistakenly declared dead by the Social Security Administration, according to government estimates. Many more get falsely reported as deceased by their bank or credit card issuer, or by one of the big three credit bureaus -- Experian, Equifax and TransUnion.
http://money.msn.com/credit-rating/denied-credit-maybe-youre-dead
"Paddy O said...
You get them same visit in WI. At a DMV.
That's great! Which is why our own experiences of access are not necessarily universal to everyone."
We are talking about WI photo ID.
Crimso,
"I've always enjoyed your comments, even lately. But statements such as this are plainly and objectively racist."
And you don't catch all the crap coming my way - outnumbering my comments? Why aren't you stepping up to them? How many blacks-are-stupid/inferior/deserving of less, etc. statements do you let slide by without comment, only to call me on "whites" being used for effect?
The hypocrisy is galling, as I have to defend against all comers, almost alone.
No one on Althouse EVER calls out the white racists - and I've been here to see it happen for years.
This new Jim Crow shit is wild,....
We are talking about WI photo ID.
Currently, some Wisconsin driver's can get their ID that same day. But as it was pointed out earlier, if one wants the "Real ID" that the Feds accept then it takes 3-4 weeks for the out-of-state company to mail it to you. However a receipt from the DMV will suffice for election purposes, even though there is no picture on it.
Again, this entire mess shows that we need to upgrade the way we issue and use IDs. It is silly that we continue to use a piece of paper, which can easily be lost or stolen, for such a vital part of our everyday life.
One person - One ID, for life. The future of our country depends on it.
Crimso,
"Since the Europeans are superior to us in nearly every way, why not survey their election observers to see what they think about voter ID? After all, they live longer, have cheaper healthcare, shorter work weeks, more vacation, the trains run on time, etc."
All lies - I lived there off and on for 20 years. Why lies? One example:
In France, they have a shorter work week - 35 hours - but no one said their job descriptions changed, too. So they're actually doing the same jobs, but with less time to accomplish anything, so they've ended up talking themselves into working harder.
The idealization of all things European, and the lies whites tell themselves to maintain the illusion, is disgusting,...
An id is necessary but insufficient to prove identity. This is where the law of large numbers comes into play. In order to reduce the risk of compromising systemic integrity, it is sufficient to reduce and graduate the problem set. This means accountability at incremental stages from local to state to federal levels.
That said, there are simpler, less obvious ways to sabotage a democratic process, than electoral fraud through corporal identity theft. Perhaps the concern is that focusing on corporal identity theft will protect other avenues to corrupt the democratic process.
"We are talking about WI photo ID."
Are we? Or are we talking about a national conversation, in which the national courts have weighed in, thus likely making it an issue for all states?
Like Gay marriage, state issues can also be national issues. So, we are talking about the bigger picture given the national audience of hereabouts.
Unless our hostess has declared otherwise, of course.
DanTheMan,
"This is Althouse's Affirmative Action Plan on display."
No one here ever mentions what all the blacks-are-thugs talk amounts to. You sure seem to know when someone talks about whites is racist, but let talk about blacks come up - which it does, often, and always accompanied by white racism - and y'all's go silent as as a secret fuck.
"It's really bigotry, holding a black poster to a MUCH lower standard because he's black."
No, it's MOCKERY, because you refuse to check yourselves - only others. King's "content of one's character" only seems to apply to blacks in white eyes. It's really only their racist shit continued.
"No white poster could say about blacks anything remotely like what Crack says about white people and not get banned."
Y'all do it EVERY DAY and you don't notice because it's so second nature for you to do so - and always in a cowardly manner.
It's like Ann's Democrats-lied-to-fire-up-the-base comment:
Caught her in a lie and, rather than admit she erred, she disappears, never to address it again.
Bravery, fairness, and ethics, to whites, appear to be very troubling things.
White racists speak - you see/hear nothing.
Let a black copy that behavior - RACIST!!
Y'all's really crazy and have been for centuries,...
pst314,
"Except when it's psychotic black racists all the way down."
It's mind-boggling:
Whites have not just been racist, but have set a new standard for the world in it - over 4 centuries. And now, after blacks have given everything to bring freedom and justice to this country, whites have the nerve to scream SOMEONE ELSE is racist?
While white supremacy may be waning, white's unchained hypocrisy and unearned arrogance are still undiminished, that's for sure,...
You simply do not understand managing complex processes.
I understand we need to manage them. I also understand that mid-20th century patterns of providing identification may not be effective in light of contemporary challenges.
I understand that my health care provided has access to all my medical records on the West Coast, so I can go into any office and show my card and they know who I am, what I've got, how I've been treated.
Complexity is not a barrier. We put a man on the moon 40+ years ago, provide IDs to 500,000 Kenyans, for goodness sakes. "But it's too hard!" is the argument both sides are using to keep the discussion at the status quo.
Screw complex, manage it. Is it difficult, okay. Will it take time, fine. Will it move us past the same boring argument we've been having for far too long? That seems worth it.
We manage all sorts of complexity these days. We even seem to manage storing an immense amount of data on every single person, until it becomes a partisan issue then hard drives fail willy-nilly.
When reparations come, it's going to blow white's minds not to be able to look down on us anymore.
I imagine suicides are going to go up dramatically,...
Did you know that Burbank airport has license plate scanners that scan every car and alert police if there is a potential problem.
I had stolen license plates about 10 years ago, which got sorted out, but it didn't get cleared in the system. So, I was pulled over at the airport, checked out.
A camera, at an airport, can have immediate access to my car's complete history. A police officer can look at my license or card, from his car, and find out my complete history.
Surely, having a city hall, police station, courthouse, etc. verify ID and process a card like, in association with the DMV even, would not be an undue burden on human ability to deal with a complex issue.
Birth certificate are processed elsewhere, as are passports, as are marriage certificates, etc. the stuff the DMV uses to verify. DMV is a middleman!
Poor Polly-Want-a-Cracker, oblivious to his own objective racism ("Weird how the white mind 'works'...."), plays the victim card and whines, "you don't catch all the crap coming my way - outnumbering my comments? Why aren't you stepping up to them? How many blacks-are-stupid/inferior/deserving of less, etc. statements do you let slide by without comment, only to call me on 'whites' being used for effect?"
Been an Althouse reader for a long time, and somehow I've missed all those objectively racists comments aimed at you, sir.
But even if so, two wrongs don't make a right. As long as you continue to employ your "all whites are the same" rhetoric, you are being as objectively racist as all those comments allegedly hurled your way.
That is, of course, your right. But the blatant hypocrisy of it calls into question everything else you assert.
Don't say these things to change your mind or make you different; do whatever you want. Just think it's useful to point some things out from time to time.
The Course in Miracles asserts that "attack is really just a call for love," so given the sheer ferocity and inventiveness with which you attack people on this thread I hope you find it soon.
And since you know neither my race, sex, age, veteran status, educational achievements, party affiliation, etc., if you respond ad hominem you are merely telling us more about yourself.
Marty Keller,
"Poor Polly-Want-a-Cracker, oblivious to his own objective racism,..."
Somebody missed this at 7:33 PM:
Madisonfella,
I think about it with every stupid utterance - but we're talking to THE white assholes, so pleaze judge accordingly.
So - in light of that, let's be reminded that it is not I who is unaware of the racism that takes place here, but my critics. And always has been. Especially the ones who are too lazy to read and comprehend a discussion, but will still throw charges of racism at blacks, after 4 centuries of whites engaging in it.
And victimization? The way whites squeal here about me?
You must be joking.
"Been an Althouse reader for a long time, and somehow I've missed all those objectively racists comments aimed at you, sir."
YeaH, JUST AS WHITES DIDN'T SEE THEIR OWN FOR 4 CENTURIES - you guys are GREAT judges of these things. Eagle eyed.
"But even if so, two wrongs don't make a right."
That "but even if so" says - even if we are racist to blacks, blacks can't be to us. Which is why I do it:
Fuck you.
"As long as you continue to employ your "all whites are the same" rhetoric, you are being as objectively racist as all those comments allegedly hurled your way."
Right - but which do whites choose to fight? Which is all whites see?
That which is directed at them - after their 4 centuries of not only engaging in it, but writing laws for it, building a culture around it, and killing people for it.
You poor ignorant monsters.
"That is, of course, your right. But the blatant hypocrisy of it calls into question everything else you assert."
No - that done to counter white supremacy is no crime. Only a white racist would think it is. To maintain white supremacy.
Fuck you.
"Don't say these things to change your mind or make you different; do whatever you want. Just think it's useful to point some things out from time to time."
And sound like a white supremacist fool.
"The Course in Miracles asserts that "attack is really just a call for love," so given the sheer ferocity and inventiveness with which you attack people on this thread I hope you find it soon."
NewAge claptrap - didn't i mention, above, that's what whites are into? At 6:49 PM I said:
"Whites love them some alternative medicine-type thinking,..."
AND HERE YOU ARE QUOTING MARIANNE WILLIAMSON!!!!
I know whites better than they know themselves,...
The biggest problem with the current system is that it is too easy for a paper document to be lost, misplaced, or stolen. If you are mugged the night before an election, the thief not only stole your money and credit cards, but also most likely stole your vote as well.
Truly a shame. We shouldn't ignore basic ballot integrity on such a rare occurence.
They didn't even consider merits of the case or the confusion it would cause so close to an election.
Dems fight and stall and then whine about something causing confusion before an election.
Over the years, she has lost her Social Security card and her birth and marriage certificates. While she could sign a form attesting that she has no identification and be granted a special ID used solely for voting, it would still take a trip to PennDOT, something she is physically unable to do.
"It's too hard," she said. "You can see I'm not exactly mobile. I get dizzy and shaky.
Her daughter cannot take her...why?
"Paddy O said...
"We are talking about WI photo ID."
Are we? Or are we talking about a national conversation, in which the national courts have weighed in, thus likely making it an issue for all states?"
No, we are talking about WI. This is specific to WI's law, and therefore WI solution.
You guys seriously can't grasp you've driven the Republican Party away from it's calling, can you? The party of Lincoln and his "black Republicans"? Can't you see you're the problem with your white racist shit we've been fighting for centuries?
You're what's wrong.
And look what I found:
Racism and the founding of the GOP: Abraham Lincoln, the Civil War and the real history of the Republican Party
Republicans hide behind "the party of Lincoln" to deflect racism charges. The party's history is more complicated
We shouldn't ignore basic ballot integrity on such a rare occurence
I am not saying ignore basic ballot integrity. My first comment in this thread is that Voter ID is a good thing.
I am saying we can not ignore basic ID integrity. The many examples provided have shown that our current system in properly identifying citizens is a mess and it needs to be fixed.
Are you for or against having integrity in the identification process?
Her daughter cannot take her...why?
You should read the link. That question is answered.
"No, we are talking about WI."
No, we're not just talking about WI.
Just as a Gay Marriage ruling in one state isn't just about that state. Oh, wait, did I say that before?
The ruling applies to Wisconsin Law, that's true. That being said, it can be an issue of partisan squabbling. Must be the DMV! We can't get to a DMV! When neither arguments are necessarily inherently true. So, both sides are playing games rather than really caring about voting.
And the issue extends broadly, as such rulings start to add up to the eventual Supreme Court decision.
And, when we all have self-driving cars, the DMV will be anachronistic, so we might as well start incorporating alternative identity establishing centers.
I can't understand Crack because I am white, so I love money more than my own children. I know this because he told me so.
Name the other western democracy where you are allowed to vote without ID.
tim in vermont,
"I can't understand Crack because I am white, so I love money more than my own children. I know this because he told me so."
No, whites love money more than OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN - Notice the attack on children coming across the border, or the bombing of four little black girls, or BARNEY being on TV.
Just brutal,...
tim in vermont,
"Name the other western democracy where you are allowed to vote without ID."
Name all the countries that whites have a long and clearly established history of actively devising ways to keep blacks from voting.
Name all the countries that whites have a long and clearly established history of actively devising ways to keep blacks from achieving justice.
Name all the countries that whites have a long and clearly established history of actively devising ways to keep blacks from doing anything the citizen of their own country should be able to do.
I'll give you South Africa as a freebie,...
Crack:
As a general rule, when I see someone write racist, sexist, elitist, whatever-ist comments, I ignore them. I assume they're too stupid to understand the problems with their thought processes, and you can't fix stupid (as opposed to ignorant). I'm not going to blow sunshine up your ass, but you're not stupid. And I do realize that you are greatly outnumbered in the comments here, and have been in that situation myself on other blogs. It can be very tiring, getting people to admit the errors in their reasoning. And it is usually futile, which is why I tend not to do it.
"Many people are have no empathy whatsoever for anyone else at all."
I have empathy for that poor woman in Michigan who sat dead for 6 years before anyone noticed. Happily, she did still manage to vote 2 years after she died.
>>Y'all do it EVERY DAY and you don't notice because it's so second nature for you to do so - and always in a cowardly manner.
It's like Ann's Democrats-lied-to-fire-up-the-base comment:
OK, so by Crack's standard, professor Althouse is a racist.
Because she's white.
You get them same visit in WI. At a DMV. I just got mine...15-20 minutes. Might take an hour if things are busy.
You actually get a piece of paper with the ID on it. The actual plastic ID shows up about 7-10 days later in the mail.
Don't go on the last day of the month. Trust me on this :)
(Which made me wonder: Will TSA take this?)
"All lies - I lived there off and on for 20 years."
I agree. But we hear this continuously nonetheless do we not? But my wondering wasn't so innocent. I recall seeing a news story some months back claiming that "European election monitors" are stunned that the U.S. does not have a universal requirement for voter ID. I don't recall where I saw it, nor the source (it may have been my monthly issue of "KKK This Week"). But I did check more recently to see how many European countries require picture ID to vote. It's a mix, IIRC. So the story was probably about the opinions of only certain election monitors. I still strongly suspect that there are election officials in other countries who think it unbelievably foolish to not make people identify themselves to vote, and wouldn't for one second believe assertions that efforts to institute laws to that effect here are all about racism and voter suppression.
"MadisonMan said...
You get them same visit in WI. At a DMV. I just got mine...15-20 minutes. Might take an hour if things are busy.
You actually get a piece of paper with the ID on it. The actual plastic ID shows up about 7-10 days later in the mail.
Don't go on the last day of the month. Trust me on this :)"
The paper has a photo, and acts as same until the plastic one arrives.
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