Two villagers said quietly that they had seen the flash of a rocket in the sky around the time the plane went down. Victor, who said he was too afraid to give his last name, said that he had been in his garden at the time and that he had seen “the light coming from a rocket.”
He said it had come from the direction of Snizhne, a city where the Ukrainian military has been bombing rebel positions frequently for more than a week. “It was a rocket, I’m sure of it,” he said....
Four rebels in fatigues were wandering through the ruins, looking through people’s belongings and riffling through guidebooks and bags.
When asked who was responsible for the crash, they looked incredulous and said that it had of course been the Ukrainian military.
“This wasn’t ours,” said a rebel who identified himself only as Alexei, standing looking at an overhead bin in the grass with a rifle over his shoulder. “Why would we do this? We’re not animals.”
July 18, 2014
"As rescue teams slowly converged on the grisly scene of the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jet, the Russian Defense Ministry on Friday denied any involvement..."
"... in the missile strike that Ukrainian officials said ripped the Boeing 777 from the sky on Thursday, and many began questioning why the airline had chosen to fly a civilian jet over a combat zone."
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39 comments:
0Bummer will stop at nothing to distract us from Benghazi.
In similar fashion, my dog denied having anything to do with my house slippers' destruction. He blamed the cat.
Hey who cares....The president managed to grab a photo op and a burger, and attend two fund raisers, so the day was at least a success for the United States.
We can't even find the truth about Lois Lerner's emails. Why would anyone think to learn the truth about this? I strongly suspect it was a mistaken ID shooting. It may be a pivotal incident in the nasty war in Ukraine.
"When asked who was responsible for the crash, they looked incredulous and said that it had of course been the Ukrainian military."
The only other planes brought down in this area have been Ukrainian military aircraft. Most have been brought down at low altitude by shoulder launched missiles but there is a credible claim that some were shot-down by Russian fighter jets.
So, where does that leave us? Ukrainian forces shoot down the airliner with a long-range missile, thinking it was a Russian military jet? Or Russians/rebels in the border region just shooting at whatever moves?
It is hard to see how anybody could rationally benefit from shooting down a plane cruising at 32 Thousand feet.
"“Why would we do this? We’re not animals."
1. I recall Russia initially denying Korean Air 007 back in the 80s too.
2. The quoted rebel's a bit too loose with that "we". Even if this Alexei is honorable and horrified at the act, there's no proof that anyone else among the rebels there are the same.
Can you imagine what the world would be like if Obama hadn't increased its tranquility?
Obama's performance with respect to his comments yesterday was horrible, maybe the worst so far. This is what you get with a president who can only speak according to his script on the teleprompter. Another display of a man with no leadership skills and who should never have achieved election to this office. Go to YouTube and look at Reagan's speech to the nation after KAL007 was shot down. As Daniel Hannan pointed out yesterday, we have lost a lot in this country when it comes to leadership. Obviously, Putin nor his surrogates in Ukraine have anyhthing to fear from this president.
"We are not animals."
I remember that line from a movie.
Said by the animal.
"Why would we do this? We’re not animals.”
The evidence says you are.
Nobody cares when a plane goes down over Africa, so this proves everyone here is a racist. Sure, there were a bunch of white guys on board who were part of a group trying to cure a disease that is rampant among Africans, and sure your concern is amplified by the fact this looks very much like a spark to the powderkeg, but that's not going to stop me from using it as a soapbox and fling the shit about keeping the black man down! /MCrack
That out the way...
We'll never know. CIA posing as Ukrainians posing as Russians posing as rebels, or any permutation of the above, or some other permutation, or no permutation at all - just one giant mistake. I do find it very interesting that flights were still going anywhere near the area.
Apparently the Pro-Russian forces tweeted, then erased, damning statements regarding who did this. On the internet, though, everything is screengrabbed.
Link.
“Why would we do this? We’re not animals.”
Maybe stop rifling through the possessions of the dead passengers and somebody'll believe you.
"We're not animals," as he picks through the debris to steal.
There was some retired general on the radio this morning who had spoken to someone who spent time with the rebels and said they are usually drunk by 9am if they aren't already from the night before. He thinks they did it, it was an "accident" because they are careless, but they were definitely shown how to use the equipment by Russians.
"We'll never know."
Of course we know.
MadisonMan: "Apparently the Pro-Russian forces tweeted, then erased, damning statements regarding who did this. On the internet, though, everything is screengrabbed"
This does appear to be the case with the rebels assuming this was a Ukrainian military aircraft while ignoring the flight path/profile that indicates a commercial flights.
Since the rebels haven't been in a position until relatively recently to command/direct air defense assets it's very likely they are just very inexperienced and made an obvious mistake.
Of course, with 23 Americans killed it was important for garage to waste no time making light of it and attempting, once again, to minimize the extent to which obama's boyfriend in the Kremlin has been empowered by obama's post-election "flexibility". Putin is, I'm sure, quite pleased with how things are proceeding while obama gathers up cheeseburgers and selfies.
People need to stop being in denial about war zones. Russia and Ukraine are at war. Airliners should not fly over war zones. It's the 21st century and heavy surface to air missiles are commonly available.
Who did it is important, but the decision to fly a plane over the Ukraine-Russia border was negligent. No airliner should have been there.
It seems to me that the most likely scenario is akin to the USS Vicennes shootdown of Iran Air 655. An airliner was flying in the same area as enemy military aircraft during hostilities. Too little care was taken to properly identify the airliner. Military forces are not hooked into the civilian air control systems and want to believe the worst.
Don't fly airliners over active hostilities.
A smarter move would have been to shoot down the airliner into the Black Sea. Less mess and increased possibility of losing the black boxes.
Claim that the airliner was off course and not sending the correct squawk ID.
Then after a suitable time, say 8 years, send checks out to the survivor's families.
By that time people will have forgotten you have never apologized or admitted responsibility.
Some precedent for handling it that way.
-john
Yeah, that was Iran Air 655. It's appropriate to talk about that.
Why didn't Ukraine close the area to airline traffic? Why didn't Russia war airlines about rebel SAMs?
Hold both governments to account for lying about the war both deny is happening.
#findthetruth
There, that should do it.
...and why didn't the US gov't issue an advisory about rebels with SAMs? It seems to be that admitting that there is a war going on is politically inconvenient for our government, even if it costs lives.
The "rebels" got one or more missile launchers from the Russian military. They did not get access to Russia's air traffic control system. Result: One Malaysian airliner down.
Reagan's address about KAL 007.
One thing is for sure. It was either the Russians or the Ukranians.
It happens in a hostile zone with forces on hair trigger alert. The USA shot down an Iranian passenger air liner that way.
Sure, as with the USS Vincennes, the rebels screwed up...it happens.
There is no such thing as "innocent civilians" in war, because there is also no such thing as any asset targeted - military people or things - are "guilty of something". War is reduced to what actions are done with respect to valid and not valid targets.
And war is never "perfect" so targets are misidentified A LOT!!
Or non-combatants just happen to be to close to a valid military target in war and become "collatteral damage".
What is a root cause of this, among other root causes like Russia giving rebels sophisticated air defense systems because the Ukraine was using a sophisticated air force against them....is the blithe silly bliss of the "international air community" that they can fly through war zones with zero risk.
That is incredibly stupid, because it assumes that infallible IFF (ID friend or foe) technology and perfect command and control systems exist in all military forces.
That is not true even of Americans at war. The Vincennes is not the only case. We hose down Brit APCs with 20mm fire in the Gulf War, we fire on the Canadian Princess Priscilla light infantry in Afghanistan or Pat Tillman.
Given that, American neocons and warhawks cannot expect a higher standard in target discernment from ethnic Russian rebels being strafed bombed and seeing air supplied reinforcemnts coming into the war zone from the Ukraine AF.
Lesson learned?? Stay the fuck out of war zones.
The airline shouldn't have been flying over Ukraine.
“Why would we do this? We’re not animals.”
Some of you are not animals. A significant percentage are. (Check out the photos of the two bodyguards who accompany your "self proclaimed" governor.)
Your opponents do not think that they are animals. Nor do the Russians.
But somebody is. They may be animal stupid or animal brutal but definitely animal.
In fact all humans are animals. The human animal. The human animal is capable of restraint of its most murderous instincts. Sometimes.
.and why didn't the US gov't issue an advisory about rebels with SAMs? It seems to be that admitting that there is a war going on is politically inconvenient for our government, even if it costs lives.
This is an excellent question, worthy of being asked the Press Secretary so he can avoid answering it.
Is there good intel about this case in the halls of US Agencies?
" john said...
A smarter move would have been to shoot down the airliner into the Black Sea. Less mess and increased possibility of losing the black boxes."
Except it was not flying anywhere near the Black Sea.
It seems to me that people off the street aren't going to be able to operate a sophisticated missile radar and launch system.
mccullough said...
The airline shouldn't have been flying over Ukraine.
Regardless. The responsibility rests with the finger on the trigger.
MadisonMan said...
.and why didn't the US gov't issue an advisory about rebels with SAMs? It seems to be that admitting that there is a war going on is politically inconvenient for our government, even if it costs lives.
Probably because it isn't our war. The pilot can divert in any direction he chooses.
As someone who is retired USAF, I think it's important to remember the following things.
First, in order to do this, you need a sophisticated missile system, A SA-11/17 is four telephone-pole sized rockets on a tracked carrier with an integrated radar system (or radar carried on a second vehicle). Nothing smaller or less complex can do the job, certainly not a hand-held SAM.
Second, both the Ukraine and Russia have the SA-11, and most young men would have at least theoretically been eligible for conscription and training in both countries. If the rebels have a SA-11, either they looted it from a Ukrainian army base, or got it from the Russians (with or without Putin's blessing).
Third, both the regular units involved would have procedures in place to avoid shooting down a civilian airliner. Coming from Poland as it did, it would have been in radio contact with Ukranian air traffic, who would have been monitoring it and giving directions to avoid military aircraft and restricted airspace. Likewise, Russian ATC would be monitoring this and preparing for a hand-off for it to continue the flight to Asia. Add in it transmitting a civilian IFF code (which by regulation it cannot fly without having operational), and the chance for misidentification is low. Standard procedure would be to scramble a fighter aircraft to get a look at what it is before taking hostile action if there's a question.
As for the rebels, they would lack this, and would be the likely candidates for opening fire. That said, the people who gave them military weapons (and the SA-11 is as much a military weapon as a tank is) are directly responsible for the war crime that occurred. And yes, as per the Geneva Conventions, this is a war crime unless some evidence comes to light that would indicate otherwise (IE Ukranian military aircraft flying alongside and the missile was fired at it).
One last point. The Black Boxes right now are important, but peripheral to the investigation. Unless they reveal the plane disregarding air traffic instructions, they are just going to show catastrophic damage and breakup at cruising altitude. The really damning information is already out there (rebels photographed with SA-11 launcher, rebel communication after the crash, missile plume from rebel territory).
Putin is not even denying that the rebels did it. He is basically saying that the Ukrainians drove them to it.
The most important to remember is that Russia is not our geopolitical foe.
And if you think otherwise, then you are in disagreement with obama.
And that makes you a racist.
John Lynch said...
...and why didn't the US gov't issue an advisory about rebels with SAMs? It seems to be that admitting that there is a war going on is politically inconvenient for our government, even if it costs lives.
7/18/14, 12:13 PM
This would be an advisory on a route that goes from Western Europe to Asia over the Eurasian land mass and does not come close to the US at all...
That said, this is the first time that we have had irregular forces using no-joke military mobile SAM launchers against civil aviation in the First World. It's very alarming and it would be a good idea int he abstract to have all the responsible parties that supplied and used this tried, convicted and hanged for 295 counts of murder to send a message. Practically, however...
I read about an event at a Nazi death camp. A Jewish woman got off the train and spoke to the first Nazi officer she saw. “The Poles say you are going to kill us here.” He replied, “Madam, we are not barbarians.” Satisfied, she went on to the showers.
We are not animals?
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