२६ जून, २०१४
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
A quote by Voltaire, in the second-highest rated comment at a Daily Mail article titled: "Hollywood suicide: He is the Brit who conquered Tinsletown. Now Gary Oldman faces ostracism after a spectacularly obscene and non-PC rant against the movie elite."
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Jews and Blacks, Blacks and Jews:
God, I love white people,….
Funny, they never seem to describe Sarah Silverman or Gilbert Gottfried (to pick two names out of the hat) as "spectacularly obscene" comedians.
Also, if IIRC, most of the really objectionable stuff was a) in the form of hypotheticals b)sounded like it belonged in Sunday School compared to, say, 2 Live Crew.
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
- Voltaire
The signs used to say "No Blacks, No Jews, No Dogs."
Oh my God - Meade - HIDE YOUR DOGS!!!!
...and gays.
It was a rant against PC in a company town rather than against Jews and Gays.
The usual victims attacked him for his support of free speech...
Boy! No kidding!
I didn't read the interview, but I understand that the rant was quite inclusive. He said "fuck the Pope" and dumped on the LBGT community. By directing his apology strictly at. Jews, he was thus, in effect, making an anti-Semitic statement........,I put Vanessa Redgrave in the same class as Jane Fonda. Whatever their artistic talents, they're both jerks when it come to politics. One notes, however, that Redgrave's idiocy caused her far more professional harm than that of Fonda.
I knew it:
Here come all the creeps to defend the creep.
Meanwhile, Oldman's apologizing and Two Live Crew (southcentralpa) won their court case for obscenity.
Maybe white people should just shut-the-fuck-up for a change? For a change. That would be a change.
Stop commenting on any race but your own. And then, try being critical, instead of fawning. On your race. Yeah, the whole race. Act like they're blacks or Jews and really go at it. Pick on the big and small. Just because.
It just dawned on me that whites hardly ever do that - actually go at themselves as they do others - they're OBSESSED with doing others. I mean, how can a white girl put a fucking braid out the side of her cornfield of a head and nobody comments on how dorky she looks? How?
Because she's not black.
That's your problem,...
SJ,
"...and gays."
Oh please:
Gays want civil rights and the entire country lines up to help.
Blacks want their civil rights and the gay community and everyone else says to get in line.
Blacks were proud before Gays were but - except to admit they're copying us - the PRIDE parade never ran through my neighborhood showing support for shit,...
I thought it was a great interview- he is not a bigot- he is just a very candid and smart guy. He had nothing to apologize for. Though I think he was misquoted- it is more likely he really said Hollywood is run by a bunch of Jewish queens.
Voltaire is a dead white guy. What could he possibly know about a vibrant society like ours?
Crack - maybe it is all the black haters and false leaders of the black community (Sharpton, et al) that are trying to tear this country apart by charging everyone with racism and turning everything into a racial conflict, while simultaneously turning a blind eye to black racism (against gays, against whites, against hispanics, against asians, against blacks that are not 'black enough', etc.) that need to STFU.
Crack: "Stop commenting on any race but your own."
Wow.
This may be the first time in memory that someone actually buys a copy of Playboy to read the interview.
Stop commenting on any race but your own
With regards to Crack.. the phrase "Physician, heal thyself" comes to mind. Maybe he could try taking his own advice for a change.
Crack - I would appreciate it if you would stop commenting on any race other than your own. Maybe black people should shut the fuck up for a change. Sounds nice, doesn't it?
At a great distance in time, I read the original of Eric Berne's Games People Play.
One of them was The Problem, I forget the chapter title. I bet "Yes But."
Somebody at a party has a problem. You suggest solution 1, solution 2, solution 3, and each has something wrong with it.
The right move, says Berne, is say, "That's a tough problem you have there," and go looking for a game of Rape-o, the come-hither get-away-from-me lady, another chapter.
This might be the race conversation solution.
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
Clearly, then, the country is not run by white people.
"Maybe black people should shut the fuck up for a change."
No.
Thomas Sowell, for instance, is intelligent and thoughtful and civilized. Racist and deranged POS's like Crack are not exactly everybody, you know.
I think that its important how a person chooses their words. Much of what Gary Oldman said could have been phrased differently, and would have be less charged.
I'm jewish, and so I take anti-semetic comments seriously. Speech informs our actions. When famous people make anti-semetic comments with impunity, regular people say, well if that guy said it, it must be okay.
Mel Gibson said the jews are responsible for all the world's problems. Being drunk loosens you up, it doesn't invent ideas you never had before. If Gary Oldman wants to say that Gibson's merits as an actor are great enough that we should ignore his anti-semetic thoughts and words, he could say that without saying the town is run by jews. There are people who are not jewish who also found Gibson's words offensive.
Crack wrote:
Stop commenting on any race but your own. And then, try being critical, instead of fawning. On your race. Yeah, the whole race. Act like they're blacks or Jews and really go at it. Pick on the big and small. Just because.
words to live by. And whites should live by that rule provided blacks also live by that rule. Particularly one black who participates on Althouse a lot.
Crack, take your own advice and stop commenting on any race but your own.
The very fact that Oldman was forced to apologize proves that he was correct. Jews do run Hollywood, for better or worse.
Crack wrote:
"Gays want civil rights and the entire country lines up to help."
What? Certainly not when it comes to marriage.
"Blacks want their civil rights and the gay community and everyone else says to get in line."
blacks already got their civil rights. Segregation is already over. That's it. You don't get more than inclusion.
If Gary Oldman wants to say that Gibson's merits as an actor are great enough that we should ignore his anti-semetic thoughts and words, he could say that without saying the town is run by jews.
If I worked for a firm where the partners were mostly women and I made misogynistic remarks that lead to my discipline or termination, I think people would rightfully say that even though my remarks were wrong on their face, that I probably was punished more severely because they were directed at the same group as the people who sign my paycheck. That’s not an uncontroversial conclusion and I think that’s what Oldman’s point was when he said that Gibson in essence was biting the hand that fed him.
Adina, how is what Gibson said about Jews different than what the left (or Cedarford) say about zionists? Zionists is a stand in for Jews. Jew countrolled media, Jew controlled foreign policy. Gibson was indelicate because he was drunk, but such criticisms are not exactly uncommon.
If we want to ostracize Gibson for that, there's a whole class of people who should join him.
One Jew's take on the question of if the Jew's run Hollywood.
Listen to the lefts critique Christians or southerners. They are characterized as dumb, backward, stupid, evil, inbred, and any other combination. So, if we're going to penalize people for hate speech,....
Certain targets are off limits, but certain other targets are a ok. Islam. Hate speech. Christianity. Free speech.
Criticizing. Blacks. Hate speech. Criticizing white men. Taught at every womyn's studies course in America.
"Choose your words more carefully?"
Oh please, it was an interview with Playboy for God's sake. Let's not make a big deal out of this.
Answer these questions honestly:
Do Jewish people dominate Hollywood exec ranks? Do blacks dominate NBA player ranks? Do white men and Hispanic men dominate MLB pitching ranks?
Am I being racist or insensitive by making these plain as day observations?
Robert Downey Jr. made a very public call for Hollywood to forgive Mel Gibson. That's a beautiful speech.
@Adina:
I think that point is not to agree with Gibson (I hope), but to point out that inveighing against some groups will cause a collective shrug (i.e. whites) and against others will cause a nuclear explosion. While I don't agree that Jews run Hollywood, there are certainly a lot of powerful and influential Jews in the entertainment industry. Jews are certainly not an oppressed minority in tinseltown, and yet SOME Jews have a cringe-inducing habit of acting like they are.
Or to put it another way, I think that Mel Gibson's sins are a lot less serious than those of Jane Fonda, Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. A lot of "creative people" say a lot of very dumb, even hateful, things, and yet we still enjoy their artistic product, but when the person in question is an open Christian or a conservative, they suddenly lose that benefit of the doubt.
Blacks want their civil rights and the gay community and everyone else says to get in line
Yeah fuck them....I mean it's not like we fought a civil war, and passed three Amendments to protect Blacks.....
"Black people should shut the fuck up for a change." Maybe I wasn't clear...My point being that it is a terrible thing to say. No matter what group you say it about. I don't even wish Crack would shut up - it's enlightening to hear such a one sided viewpoint.
spectacularly obscene
Apparently some headline writer owns stock in Playboy.
I'm jewish, and so I take anti-semetic[sic] comments seriously.
Exactly which comments were anti-Semitic?
I read the interview, and thought Oldman really had no idea how much he stepped in it, saying these things on the record.
He's frustrated with PC and hypocrisy, but the real problem is that, for some sins, no forgiveness is possible in our culture now. Unwed mother? No problem. Drug or alcohol dependency? Infinite forgiveness. Bad childhood? Lifetime pass for behaving badly. But if you mouth off against certain groups, you instantly become a pariah, and there is (apparently) no coming back from it.
People are generally a mixed bag of good and bad, and sometimes the bad things come to the surface. I agree with Oldman that someone popping off when they're drunk or angry shouldn't be a career-ending event. Of course, if the career is littered with racist, misogynist, etc behavior, how was that person able to build a career in the public space in the first place?
AustinRoth,
"Crack - maybe it is all the white people trying to point at one man (like Sharpton) to distract from the crimes of an entire white SOCIETY, ever thought about that?"
Yes.
Blogger madAsHell said...
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
- Voltaire
6/26/14, 8:42 AM
-----------------------------
Every time this quote pops up I remind myself that Voltaire was an effete fop who wouldn't fight anybody over anything.
Blogger Darury,
"With regards to Crack.. the phrase "Physician, heal thyself" comes to mind. Maybe he could try taking his own advice for a change."
That wouldn't be changing the history of the country, now would it? Which explains why whites HATE the history being uncovered now, doesn't it?
Whites letting blacks speak - without white input - THAT would be different,...
lb,
"Crack - I would appreciate it if you would stop commenting on any race other than your own. Maybe black people should shut the fuck up for a change. Sounds nice, doesn't it?"
If we brutally, and ruthlessly, and bloodily, ran this rape-crazy country for 400 years, yeah, it would sound like a breath of fresh air.
Of course, if you're from the Nazi culture that prospers from brainwashing 400 years of awful things out of your recollection of American history (bring the kids!) it all probably strikes you as terribly unfair and horribly cruel. So you blame blacks - just like the forefathers you now admit were evil racists. But you want to be seen as different. As you do the same things. In the same way. For the same reasons.
Not going to happen.
Oh well - study history and you'll feel better:
That's what blacks do before we make a move,...
Adina,
"Mel Gibson said the jews are responsible for all the world's problems. Being drunk loosens you up, it doesn't invent ideas you never had before."
And these guys don't see anything wrong with those ideas. They want to defend them. And be seen as good people.
As the old saying goes, "Two out of three ain't bad,…"
pst314,
"Thomas Sowell, for instance, is intelligent and thoughtful and civilized. Racist and deranged POS's like Crack are not exactly everybody, you know."
And we all know what white's have done to blacks who don't talk like Uncle Tom, so,….
Don't you guys LOVE the historical record?
You should probably encounter it more often:
It would make what you say more plausible and coherent,...
Adina said...
I think that its important how a person chooses their words. Much of what Gary Oldman said could have been phrased differently, and would have be less charged.
I'm jewish, and so I take anti-semetic comments seriously. Speech informs our actions. When famous people make anti-semetic comments with impunity, regular people say, well if that guy said it, it must be okay.
Mel Gibson said the jews are responsible for all the world's problems. Being drunk loosens you up, it doesn't invent ideas you never had before. If Gary Oldman wants to say that Gibson's merits as an actor are great enough that we should ignore his anti-semetic thoughts and words, he could say that without saying the town is run by jews. There are people who are not jewish who also found Gibson's words offensive.
When you're afraid to speak because you're afraid you're words might not be taken the right way, you're already being censored.
Gary Oldman can say whatever he likes.
Mel Gibson can say what ever he likes
Crack MC can say whatever he likes.
Your free to say whatever you like.
I'm free to ignore, ridicule, or engage as I like.
But I am not free to prevent them from speaking.
Crack,
"Jews and Blacks, Blacks and Jews:"
"God, I love white people,…."
Not sure what the first line is supposed to mean. Are you by chance remarking on how much hostility there is in the black community toward Jews, despite the strong representation of Jews among white civil rights activists in the 1960s?
The most baldly anti-Semitic statements I've ever personally heard came from a fellow soldier, who is black, when we were first working together. When I asked him as casually as I could what he meant, he elaborated colorfully and in great detail. It just didn't occur to him that I might be Jewish. We later became friends.
Oldman thinks Gibson is not a bad guy, despite having made stupid and offensive remarks. I know my friend is not, though his were worse.
Mornin' Crack,
See your up to your racist bullshit early today.
About that non-existent knockout game thingy you were spouting off about on another thread...
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/06/25/baltimore-city-mayor-speaks-out-against-knockout-game/
"Here come all the creeps to defend the creep.
Meanwhile, Oldman's apologizing and Two Live Crew (southcentralpa) won their court case for obscenity.
Maybe white people should just shut-the-fuck-up for a change? For a change. That would be a change."
A great example of the divide between us.
I believe creeps like you, Crack, don't need to shut up. Want to keep speaking your lunatic rants? I fully support you in your efforts to convince us to give you a hand out. Keep on keeping on. Even though I think you're a racist creep, I'll be right beside you defending your right to blather on.
Whereas you want us to shut up.
I think it's clear who has the better argument.
Jews have disproportionate power and influence over the entertainment media. Say it and they will call it a lie and try to blacklist the critic from working in Hollywood, employment in TV industry, employment in the music industry.
There is a double whammy in that half these jewish Moguls are strident gay queens....so making fun of gays or talking about the gay gestapo in entertainment is deeply offensive to the powerful Jews as well.
Someone moted that Jane Fonda's career never suffered like the informal Mel Gibson blacklist or decades of Vanessa Redgrave shunned from casting for the choicest roles because she spoke up for Palestinians and called noisy in your face Jewish protestors of that in London - "Zionist Hooligans". But not Jane Fonda. As Jane just collaborated with the enemy in wartime....and did nothing serious that hurt her standing with the Jews in charge - like saying Jews owned and controlled most film theater distribution channels and could bury a movie made abroad by foreigners that didn't kow-tow to the Hollywood Jews. (Had she said that in the 60s, no one would have known about Fonda except as a pretty daughter that made Barefoot in the Park, and Barbarella before strangely moving to France to have kids and make obscure French films)
Former CNN anchorman Rick Sanchez destroyed his career by saying Jews make all the hiring decisions at CNN news and jewish producers decide which news stories get airtime. (Sanchez was also dumb as a rock on many other issues). So the clueless guy is now out of broadcasting.
BTW - that Voltaire quote from madasHell is a phony. " "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
- Voltaire It actually was invented by a wealthy late 19th century society matron who 'channeled' at a seance what Voltaire MIGHT have said if he was still alive and friends with rich Philadelphia women into poetry meetings and spiritualism.
Voltaire also said that you can't reason anyone out of a belief they haven't been reasoned into. And he coined the phrase "invincible stupidity." It's almost as if he had foreseen the coming of Uncle Crack.
Adina said...I'm jewish, and so I take anti-semetic comments seriously. Speech informs our actions. When famous people make anti-semetic comments with impunity, regular people say, well if that guy said it, it must be okay.
That's especially important to keep in mind right now, when anti-Semitism is on the rise in the West once again, especially in Europe.
I believe creeps like you, Crack,
Take it easy on him. He can't even get an afirmative action hire.
The problem with statement like Oldman's that Hollywood is a "town run by Jews" is that it reinforces the idea that Jews are a controlling conspiracy involved in evil machinations.
Here's a 1999 statement by the Anti-Defamation League that spells this out:
While statistics and studies on the subject are not readily available, the Anti-Defamation League believes that the recitation of numbers and percentages is not the answer to the false charges of Jewish "control" of the motion picture industry, or, indeed, of similar accusations involving the media, banking, finance and other businesses. Reliance on statistics alone plays into the hands of anti-Semites. Generally, Jews involve themselves in non-religious and non-political activity as individuals, not as Jews. ADL takes the position that the number of Jews involved in a particular field bears no relationship to "Jewish power" or "Jewish control" of that industry. ADL does not accept the notion that Jews in any field act in concert with other Jews similarly situated simply because they happen to be Jewish. To believe otherwise is to accept a conspiracy theory that is the anti-Semites' stock-in-trade and relegates Jews to a kind of second-class citizenship.
Joan said: I read the interview, and thought Oldman really had no idea how much he stepped in it, saying these things on the record.
I thought I read an excerpt where Oldman says to the interviewer that he/she will have to redact half the words he spoke or else it would get Oldman into trouble. I got the impression that Oldman realized exactly what he said and exactly how it was going to be received and began to panic before the interview was even over.
This just in: America's Jews successfully identify 10 out of every 3 actual anti-semites... and Crack identifies 10 million out of every three actual racist.
Details at 6.
Lydia said...
That's especially important to keep in mind right now, when anti-Semitism is on the rise in the West once again, especially in Europe.
The irony is ... the anti-Semitic attackers are also Semites:
"The wave of anti-Semitic violence continues to rock French Jewry, as a gang of 20 attackers on Monday reportedly assaulted visibly Jewish students wearing kippot (yarmulkes) at a local library in the capital city of Paris.
The assailants, described by reports as being of North African descent and therefore likely Muslim immigrants, approached the Jewish students from two directions in the library, pouncing on them and beating them until they were bloody."
I'm a member of one of a different group that Muslims say should all be killed.
@eric Yes, that was the point I was going for, if I didn't quite get there: it's only "spectacularly obscene" when it's not PC.
Don't believe me, try and put "Piss Mandela" into the Whitney Biennial and see what happens ...
It is a fact that people who happen to be Jewish are disproportionately represented in positions of power in Hollywood--Jews have been pioneers in starting the big studios since the early days of film and have a rich history in all areas of entertainment.
But there's a difference between noting that fact and going another step by implying that "Jews" are some united group running Hollywood for some nefarious purposes, as some (like Mel Gibson) have suggested. It's wrong, but it's also offensive in the context of a long history of Jew-bashing both worldwide and in this country. A key tenet of antisemitism has been this idea of secret Jewish conspiracies and "unfair" levels of Jewish power. Not just nonsense, but nonsense that often became the catalyst for discrimination and worse.
It's understandable for Jews to be sensitive to this sort of thing, and when people opine about Jews in positions of power they ought to consider this context. You may not actually be antisemitic, but you can certainly sound antisemitic.
And for what it's worth, I'd rather not see the Gibsons or Oldmans of the world shunned for comments that are either a poor choice of words or just plain offensive (in Gibson's case). Better to point out the ridiculousness of what they're saying and expose them for what they are. Besides, if every Hollywood actor were blacklisted for saying something stupid, we'd have something like three working actors left and it'd be hard to film a movie that way unless we use a lot of CGI.
As a group Black Americans hold some really odd, conspiratorial views. The government killed MLK, the government purposely started AIDS to kill black people, etc.
I'd ask Mr. Emcee to comment, but I am not certain that he is a Black person.
Brando: It is a fact that people who happen to be Jewish are disproportionately represented in positions of power in Hollywood...
I think this is what is meant when people say "X run Y", for any given group X and industry or institution Y.
...--Jews have been pioneers in starting the big studios since the early days of film and have a rich history in all areas of entertainment.
Sure. As a group they have talent, brains, a good work ethic. And, like everybody else in the world, practice a good deal of networking and nepotism among themselves. Maybe if the "Hollywood elite" types weren't hypocritically in the forefront of screeching at other groups with "rich histories" about their "privilege" and "exclusionary bigotry" and "lack of diversity", nobody would be getting annoyed with them.
But there's a difference between noting that fact and going another step by implying that "Jews" are some united group running Hollywood for some nefarious purposes, as some (like Mel Gibson) have suggested.
I agree. All this crap about group X using their invisible powers and connections to exploit everybody else, keep them down, and enrich themselves really has no place in an intelligent society. Anybody making such nonsensical but potentially violence-inciting claims about any group should be hauled up and bullied into abject groveling apologies.
It's wrong, but it's also offensive in the context of a long history of Jew-bashing both worldwide and in this country.
There is no more a "long history of Jew-bashing in this country" than there is a long history of bashing any other newcomer group. Everybody took their lumps. The notion that the United States is some rabidly anti-Semitic nation where the gentile populace must constantly be censored and harangued about their inherent evilitude (lest they go nuts and launch pogroms, or something) is irritating, insulting, and hysterical. It is crazy talk equal to that of the craziest internet conspiracy-theorist drooling on about the Joooooos. And at least they have the excuse of being stupid.
...it's understandable for Jews to be sensitive to this sort of thing,...
We're all sensitive people, Brando. I don't have any respect for people demanding one-way deference.
...and when people opine about Jews in positions of power they ought to consider this context.
Nope, sorry, "Jews in power" aren't any more deserving of protection from any kind of criticism than any other group, any more than they get a special pass to criticize that isn't granted to other groups. Good grief, listen to what you're saying here.
You may not actually be antisemitic, but you can certainly sound antisemitic.
At least you didn't type "antisemetic", I'll give you that.
Wait. Playboy has interviews?!?!?!
I was only offended in the interview by his dissing The Fifth Element.
Crack:
So every white person who lives in American is a racist? Is that your schtick? Because we are in the north - which fought to abolish slavery - does that count? Are my forefathers who fought against the south racist? Just wondering where you draw the line since I never personally owned slaves nor supported slave ownership. I'm not sure if you're supposed to be a caricature of an "angry black man" or if you are just pulling our leg, or both, or neither. You can't possibly be as silly as you sound.
lb said...
"Crack:
So every white person who lives in American is a racist? Is that your schtick? Because we are in the north - which fought to abolish slavery - does that count? Are my forefathers who fought against the south racist? Just wondering where you draw the line since I never personally owned slaves nor supported slave ownership. I'm not sure if you're supposed to be a caricature of an "angry black man" or if you are just pulling our leg, or both, or neither. You can't possibly be as silly as you sound."
Ugh, new guy.
Re: "long history of Jew-bashing in this country"
True in a vacuum, I suppose, but viewed in the context of the larger world, the USA is a better place to be Jewish than any other country not named "Israel". And safer than Israel. The US has been so welcoming to the Jews (among other groups) that US Jews are in danger of disappearing via assimilation and apathy.
Nothing wrong with calling out racist or boorish behavior, but let's not even pretend that Jews in the USA face even a tiny fraction of the discrimination faced by Christians and other religious minorities in the Islamic world, or even Jews in the immigrant-heavy towns of Europe.
So Crack,
How is it that you're not in touch with American history? It was black Africans enslaving other Africans and selling them to slave traders; those who were sold in the US first became indentured servants for a period of 7 years until one man, who had an indentured servant, sued the servant and his new master as he didn't want to let go. Because the man suing and his servant were both black, the court allowed chattel slavery for the first time. The first American slaveholder was a black man, nJohnson. Welcome to slavery. Perpetrated by blacks on blacks.
Eventually the ruling was expanded to allow all to enslave blacks; however, had Mr. Johnson been satisfied that his indentured servant had worked out his servitude, the course of this country would've been different.
Instead, Whitey takes the rap for a black man's crime.
"Maybe white people should just shut-the-fuck-up for a change? For a change. That would be a change.
Stop commenting on any race but your own."
Crack, if whites decide to ignore the blacks, what would happen to you?
Does playboy pay well for their interviews? Also, were hit comments part of a larger interview/commentary and the media simply ripped out the juicy bits, which obviously make it look worse than it is?
Are Jewish people 'over represented' in Hollywood? And does it matter?
Wait. Playboy has interviews?!?!?!
“Yeah it’s so you have something to do after you get done . . .reading the articles” – Bud Bundy.
If the incessant socialist whiners and fascist bigots simply shut up for one month there would be nothing for the media to publish. Well, maybe one edition a month would cover the rest.
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