It is the 70th anniversary of D-Day, and as the world leaders gather...
The leaders gathered as the crisis in eastern Ukraine, the worst conflict between Russia and the West since the Cold War, cast a long shadow. Obama was scheduled to attend a luncheon with the Russian president later Friday, although there were no plans for the two to meet directly..... we're prodded to think that the odd person out is Vladimir Putin, but I would think the out-of-place personage would be Angela Merkel, representing Germany. Obama intoned:
“Here, we don’t just commemorate victory, as proud of that victory as we are; we don’t just honor sacrifice, as grateful as the world is; we come to remember why America and our allies gave so much for the survival of liberty at its moment of maximum peril...."Merkel wasn't there to celebrate victory.
ADDED: Historical photographs.
AND: "Experience D-Day like your grandparents did, if they weren't in the military on June 6, 1944. Archive.org has the the complete D-Day broadcast from CBS radio."
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७९ टिप्पण्या:
Merkel wasn't there to celebrate victory.
It's possible that she could have been. Possibly grateful that she didn't have to grow up in a Germany or Festung Europa where the Third Reich had not been overthrown.
D-Day was also the opening shots of the Cold War.
Nice photo op for the President in the wake of Benghazi, the VA mess and Bergdahl. Optics...
Not sure how Merkel being at D-Day is any different than a Southerner learning the Gettysburg Address.
-XC
I'm with Scott M, but will extend it. If the Landings had failed, the link up between the Russians and the West would have been in Paris, not on the Elbe.
The world today would be different if all of Germany had been a Russian province.
BTW: Angela is an East German. She understands the Russians.
Here’s to Absent Companions!
No story of D-Day is complete without telling of the speech Eisenhower didn’t give:
‘Our landings in the Cherbourg-Haver area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops.
‘My decision to attack at this time and place was based upon the best information available.
‘The troops, the air, and the navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone.’
June 5, 1944
Would it be that our leaders today were as honest and direct as Marshall, Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton.
Ann: great observation about Merkel. I wonder if she felt awkward. But that would require some honesty about history; that her countrymen enslaved a continent and ours died to redeem it. The incongruity of her presence at the commemoration --supposedly of history "as it truly happened"-- is mind-warping. It reminds us that the event is an almost bloodless abstraction, a post-historical photo op with cocktails to follow. Those who fought their way ashore that day are now almost all gone; and the politicians will convert it to their own use. So, sure, Angela: welcome.
Ten years ago, there was a bit of a stir when Germany showed up at the D-Day commemorations. I'll just repeat what I said back then:
Lately, we've been hearing from the Germans that WWII was the fault of some external force called 'The Nazis' that appeared out of nowhere and oppressed them as much as they oppressed anyone else, and that they were as much the victims as anyone else was.
The disadvantage of this is that when a people denies its own history, especially a horrible history like the history of Germany from 1933-1945, it lays the groundwork for a repeat of that history.
The advantage is that there's one more country that Americans can strut around in, telling the natives, "You know, we saved your asses from the Nazis."
I did a quick click through and saw that same list of dignitaries. If complete, it is rather strange. Where's Harper? Or is the queen doing double duty for Canada as well as the UK. Where's Hollande? Rusia represented, but not the French?
Maybe it's time for another Molotov-Ribbentrop luncheon.
Lest we forget...
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1960/11/first-wave-at-omaha-beach/303365/
Possibly grateful that she didn't have to grow up in a Germany or Festung Europa where the Third Reich had not been overthrown.
There was a very interesting show called 'secrets of the dead' on PBS a couple weeks ago. British intelligence during WWII was putting generals in a nice country house that was completely bugged and then listening to what they said to each other. Many of the generals were lamenting war crimes they had seen or Hitler's crazyness.
I'd say Obama was out of place, not Merkel.
I could have done with a D-Day remembrance that didn't include Obama.
Going to my granddad's where we will sit on the porch, and not talk about D-Day....
".... we're prodded to think that the odd person out is Vladimir Putin"
He's probably casing the joint.
Or is the queen doing double duty for Canada as well as the UK.
The Queen is Canada's Head of State
Before and after photos from Life Magazine
D-Day broadcast
There is something odd, and a little obscene, about Obama and D-Day. It's hard to describe it but he doesn't fit. He doesn't like us very much.
Would it be that our leaders today were as honest and direct as Marshall, Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton.
When we look back on this period, we may come to the conclusion that the world was a comfortable enough place that they risked electing somebody like Obama (no allusion here to his half black status). Wasn't there a quote about liberal Democrats from Patton?
No Telling of D-Day is complete without "The Boys from Bedford"
A Co, 116th inf, 29th Division, Virginia National Guard
They landed right on target: Dog Green Beach at the right of the landings, in the first wave. The problem was that everybody else had drifted left and they were alone.
Those horrific scenes from "Saving Private Ryan"? Those Rangers landed in wave 5 on that same beach after the first 4 waves had soaked up casualties. A relatively easy landing...
casualties? A Co, 116th was down to 4% strength after 10 minutes. 96% killed or wounded. about 192 of 200 men...
Nearly all the losses from a few small towns in Virginia. The good and bad of territorial recruiting is tight cohesion, and losses.
Here's to the Boys from Bedford!!
Most veterans of that war I grew up around would not say they are proud of victory, but grateful for it. It's a very different perspective that demonstrates humility and sacrifice, something our president is completely unfamiliar with.
At this time of year, it should also be remembered that Rome was liberated on June 5, 1944. That was a long, hard slog through Africa, Sicily, and then through Italy.
"intone"
transitive verb (1) to utter in musical or prolonged tones : recite in singing tones or in a monotone
intransitive verb (2) to utter something in singing tones or in monotone
I like the usage herein
I happened to see drone boy* for about a minute, and he was pushing big government based on the GI bill created the "greatest middle class the world has ever known." or something like that. The man can't help it.
* Double meaning. He drones on and on in the most boring manner, and he kills combatants and unlucky people with drones. Pick your interpretation.
Do the Germans disassociate themselves from the Nazis? Probably a good thing that they did so, so quickly after WWII ended - we take it for granted that, after the surrender, everyone, well, surrendered, but weren't there fears of continued opposition from underground forces?
For that matter, in the leaflet-droppings, it seems to me that we promoted the idea that the allied troops were coming to liberate the ordinary Germans from the Nazis.
And, regardless of whether Germans think of Nazis as some kind of alien force, it's nonetheless clear to every German that the success of the Allied troops, and, specifically, the invasion from the West, was a good thing. (The Russians, on the other hand? My husband's grandmother told stories.)
"I'd say Obama was out of place, not Merkel."
Truly. In terms of any kind of meaningful understanding and appreciation of the event. Obama may as well have been on the golf course.
Do the Germans disassociate themselves from the Nazis? Probably a good thing that they did so, so quickly after WWII ended - we take it for granted that, after the surrender, everyone, well, surrendered, but weren't there fears of continued opposition from underground forces?
It's an interesting topic, to be sure. My brother married a women in the early 90's (remember what was happening then for context) who grew up in East Germany. In the west, the implication is that Germans must bear their grandfather's shame, even though it's verboton to talk about it. In the east, though, the communists told them that they were victims every bit as much as everyone else; that they didn't have to bear their grandfather's shame.
This is why a lot of the more strident skinhead and nationalist movements originate in the eastern end of unified Germany. Or so I'm led to believe.
One of my uncles was a platoon commander in the 116th/29. Survived the beach (technically second wave, but landed at a spot the first wave missed); KIA June 14th.
Its a shame that Obama is president of only the democrats and not the whole country. I just presume this is just a photo op for him to shore up his sagging poll numbers. Maybe he can ride around in a tank Ala Dukakis to help seal the deal he is a rough, tough ,warrior!
Lately, we've been hearing from the Germans that WWII was the fault of some external force called 'The Nazis' that appeared out of nowhere and oppressed them as much as they oppressed anyone else, and that they were as much the victims as anyone else was.
Can you provide a link to the "Germans" that you heard this from. My experience is that Germany, more than any other of the participants of WWII accepts and acknowledges responsibility for their crimes.
...we're prodded to think that the odd person out is Vladimir Putin
Hardly. The 2 and 1/2 year siege of Leningrad by Germany, alone cost the lives of almost 2 million Russians.
Here's what surprised me about D-Day, from reading Stephen Ambrose's book. Omaha Beach and its horrific losses, for various reasons, was the outlier. The landings, in general, in the big picture, went according to plan.
The Drill SGT @ 7:58,
That was my point. I didn't think it needed elaboration. Still Harper's presence would have been nice considering Canada's D-day contribution, and that not every Canadian is exactly thrilled to have Elizabeth as monarch.
There is something odd, and a little obscene, about Obama and D-Day. It's hard to describe it but he doesn't fit. He doesn't like us very much.
It's your ODS dude.
Vladimir Putin can perhaps instute a remembrance of the Hitler-Stalin Pact which opened WW2 and ultimately gave Russia all those goodies (including Koningsbergen). Germany paid and Russia gained.
(The Russians, on the other hand? My husband's grandmother told stories.)
Dave Carlin has an interesting podcast series called 'ghosts of the ostfront' about the Russian/German part of the war. Terrible stuff, on both sides.
exhelodrvr1 said...
One of my uncles was a platoon commander in the 116th/29. Survived the beach (technically second wave, but landed at a spot the first wave missed); KIA June 14th.
Being a vet yourself, you might have seen the Army Mil History Green Book Series, and the
Volume: "Cross Channel Attack"
It's free, but the maps alone are things of beauty. Look at Map plate XI in the back. It shows the assigned beaches of all the companies that made the landings on Omaha and where they actually landed. Then look at the index for your uncle's name. He might be there. I suspect that your uncle was with B, C or D Co.
If I had close family of a D-Day Vet, I'd blow that Map Plate up and hang make framed copies for all your uncles kin...
And drink a toast every June 6th...
PS and Map XVII shows where the 116th was when you uncle died fighting toward St Lo
I don't know if it makes it more or less appropriate for Putin that some of the forces defending the beach (or, more specifically, the area behind Utah beach) were Osttruppen; Ex-Soviets (some POWs, some volunteers from the occupied territories) that decided to join up with the Germans to fight the Communists.
One has to be able to separate the complicity of the German and Soviet governments in starting the war from the respect due to their troops that died in the war.
Owen,
"Ann: great observation about Merkel. I wonder if she felt awkward. But that would require some honesty about history; that her countrymen enslaved a continent and ours died to redeem it."
Wow. Just Wow. Amazing. Breath-taking. Impervious.
Weird how Americans obsess about D-Day and Nazi Germany and forget about our War against Japan. the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbor - Dec 1941 - passed almost without notice in Dec 2011, as did Guadalcanal, Midway, and Coral Sea in 2012, and Tarawa in 2013. More Americans died in the battle for Saipan than on D-Day - yet its completely forgotten.
For that matter, in the leaflet-droppings, it seems to me that we promoted the idea that the allied troops were coming to liberate the ordinary Germans from the Nazis.
No, Eisenhower, in his instructions to Allied troops as they entered Germany, was very explicit that they were there as conquerors, not as liberators.
The Drill Sgt,
Thanks - I have seen those. I spent some time at the Natl Archives several years ago researching his company. Really fascinating, and something I would strongly recommend to anyone who is interested in what their relatives did if they served in the military. The most interesting thing I found out is that we had always been told that he came ashore on the second day - in fact it was the second wave (which was really the first wave in his case, since the first wave missed that section of the beach). Not sure if that was a misunderstanding just on my mom's part, or if her parents also weren't aware of that. He was in H company.
"There is something odd, and a little obscene, about Obama and D-Day. It's hard to describe it but he doesn't fit. He doesn't like us very much."
Now what would make you say that? What could it be about that time that makes him stand out - and even seem "obscene" - to the setting?
It's fun to hear whites talk,….
Canada is there.. PM Stephen Harper, He laid a wreath at a cemetery, and will join the other leaders at Sword Beach.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/harper-begins-d-day-sojourn-in-normandy-will-meet-vets-at-juno-beach/article19039624/
This is an excerpt from a letter he wrote home from England, in March, 1944
"Soon... I do not know how soon.. I shall have to demonstrate not only how much or how well I have learned the art of killing, but how well I have taught that abominable art to others"
"I know what's ahead. It won't be another pleasure trip, but though it may cost me my life, I wouldn't want to miss it!"
"Should I be among the many who inevitably must fall, remember that I didn't go without realizing the possibility that I might lose my life. Remember, too, that I give my life willingly, that I do so out of love for my country and all its people....even the traitors and selfish slackers".
"If I should die on the battlefield, I beg you to leave my body there. Some day our government may provide you the opportunity to visit my grave. If so, avail yourself of that opportunity."
He is buried at the American cemetery in Normandy, France.
More like Obama's "America Derangement Syndrome"
Queen Elizabeth is the only one of the assembled officials and heads of state who actually served in World War II (truck driver and mechanic in the Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service). She is a great person.
Thanks for adding the links, Professor!
St. Lo wasn't the only French town leveled in the breakout from Normandy. Caen was bombed to rubble, and then rubbled some more by British & Canadian artillery.
As you can see at the link, the inhabitants weren't too thrilled to be "martyred" pour la liberation de la France. It's a little late now to second guess the commanders in the field, who, after all, always cleared these massive assaults on major towns with the Free French.
The Free French knew that if France was to be free again, French civilians would be killed in the process. A noble thought, but one that no doubt was of little comfort to the residents of Caen caught in the bombing.
St. Lo & Caen were examples of "collateral damage" by the Allies. For the Germans, sometimes the damage wasn't "collateral". Sometimes it was outright massacre.
Angela Merkel is the most comfortable and least threatening leader in Germany's history. The good thing you can say about the Germans is that they have learned from history. The Russians not so much.
He was in H company.
looks like he landed on Dog White then if it was empty of Wave 1
He is buried at the American cemetery in Normandy, France.
No more beautiful place on earth. Overlooking the beach, with grass mowed like a putting green and crosses line it with precision.
Factiod. Officers are over represented in the cemetery. Beyond the fact that they died at a higher rate in combat. Enlisted men's families tended to bring their sons home. Officers families tended to leave them amongst the men they died leading.
ChrisRet @ 10:37
Thanks. Good to know.
President Obama's presence at the event is appropriate because he is the President of the United States, others' opinions notwithstanding. Nothing obscene or out-of-place about it.
DrMaturin, I stand corrected. I remember a museum exhibit talking about the "liberation" of Augsburg, but I pulled out a book on the bookshelf and the actual leaflets were quite different than I had remembered, e.g., paraphrased, Allied troops are just outside your city. All German troops must leave the city and you must display white flags on all buildings in the city. "Spare your old city and its inhabitants from the rain of steel, which threatens to annihilate Augsburg!"
It's fun to hear whites talk,….
Educate yourself on what Hitler's plans were for what he called the 'mudpeople' of Africa before dumping any more of your racist crap on a D-Day thread.
The good thing you can say about the Germans is that they have learned from history. The Russians not so much.
It's easier to learn from history when you lose.
Say what we will about these German and Russian leaders, but they are leaders who will never even think of denying the truth that the massive Holocaust of rounding up, transporting and poison gassing Europe's Jews was carried out by Hitler's men in 1943, 1944, and 1945 even at the great expense to the War Effort for fear they would lose the war before they could exterminate all Jews.
It takes Obama's best friends, the Iranians Muslims, to follow down that path again as fast as they can get their Nukes ready.
Death to America has a ring to it. That is where the Jews not in Israel live today. But the Germans and Russians will never support that like Obama's best friends in Iran are doing.
"The good and bad of territorial recruiting is tight cohesion, and losses."
- True that. See the Royal Newfoundland Regiment and Beaumont Hamel in WW II.
-Omaha was an outlier - the geography is practically impossible for the attacker. It's a (very) bloody miracle that the Yanks made it off that beach at all. My gut instinct is that the Omaha assault was not supposed to succeed but rather to occupy the attention of Omaha's German defenders to keep them from putting flanking fire into the two adjescent beaches, and then Omaha would be taken from behind.
On the other hand, once off Omaha and Utah, the Americans were in good ground whereas the Brits and Canadians had some very nasty geography behind their beaches.
There is something odd, and a little obscene, about Obama and D-Day. It's hard to describe it but he doesn't fit.
If he'd been Commander in Chief back then instead of sending a squad to retrieve Private Ryan he'd have offered the Germans five SS colonels in exchange.
It's a little late now to second guess the commanders in the field, who, after all, always cleared these massive assaults on major towns with the Free French.
That would be Montgomery. And why is it a little now to second guess Monty? My grandfather is still second guessing Montgomery over Operation Market Garden.
There is something odd, and a little obscene, about Obama and D-Day. It's hard to describe it but he doesn't fit. He doesn't like us very much.
Garage: "It's your ODS dude."
It's my CIB, bitch.
It's my CIB, bitch.
Ohh burn! Somebody call me a doctor.
Can you provide a link to the "Germans" that you heard this [Germany was a victim of outside 'Nazis'] from.
"Germans [were liberated] from the Nazi Tyranny"
-Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, 2004
"[T]he meaning of D-day [is] the liberation from National Socialism, which was not only the liberation of Europe but also the liberation of Germany"
-Also Gerhard Schroeder, 2004
As I said, this became a popular meme among Germans in 2004, and I still see it occasionally today.
FYI GM,
CIB normally is Combat Infantryman's Badge
CIB normally is Combat Infantryman's Badge
Ah. Don't normally hear a decorated vet talk like that. I know my dad killed a shitload of Germans, he was the navigator on the B-17 responsible getting them where they needed to go. But he never boasted or bragged. He would barely talk about it. Most of what I know about his time in the service is from mom who told me years later.
The Drill SGT said...
He is buried at the American cemetery in Normandy, France.
No more beautiful place on earth. Overlooking the beach, with grass mowed like a putting green and crosses line it with precision.
Normandy looks a lot like SE Wisconsin . A lot of little two lane blacktops crisscrossing the landscape.Sometimes at the cross roads there's just a cafe with a gas station. Maybe a rooming house on another corner or just some old house or a barn. But in the middle of the intersection is always a garden. Well tended with lots of flowers. The road widens so that you can drive around it.In the middle of the garden is always a monument. In English,"Dedicated to the Allies that died........."Sometimes it's a unit. 101 or the 82 or some British or Canadian or other infantry unit. Sometimes it's the names of the men that died. Sometimes the words are outlined in gold, but more often not. "Dedicated to the Allied soldiers that died to liberate this town"
Just a crossroad in an area of France that looks a lot like Wisconsin.
Queen Elizabeth is there with O P M (funny how that worked out)and thinking, these world leaders, these children, know nothing of war.
Ohh burn! Somebody call me a doctor.
How about if we call you an a**hole instead?
Hey Democrats! How about next time you nominate someone for president you pick a person with enough discernment not to chew gum or take selfies at memorial services? Would you mind doing that for the rest of us?
What's really ironic is that had the invasion failed, or never been attempted, the war's outcome would have been the same. Nazi Germany would have gone down to defeat, though it might have taken a year or so longer depending on bomb production.
Peter
Russia would have overrun all of Germany, Denmark and possibly Holland. France would have easily capitulated to Socialism. Spain would have, too, turning the Mediterranean into a Soviet lake. There would have been no free world foothold in Europe during the Cold War. Russian submarines would have had vastly more basing options and much more range. The West would have had much fewer options in terms of nuclear deterrence as we would have had to rely on submarines and ICBMs entirely, with no medium or short-range rapid-attack option.
What's really ironic is that had the invasion failed, or never been attempted, the war's outcome would have been the same. Nazi Germany would have gone down to defeat, though it might have taken a year or so longer depending on bomb production.
Peter
Except that it would gave been the russians liberating Paris, not the FF 2nd Armored Div
" But he never boasted or bragged. He would barely talk about it. Most of what I know about his time in the service is from mom who told me years later."
My dad was a radio man on a B-17. He told only one story, he was in Africa and flew over the scene of a battle that had taken place days earlier, I think it was El Alamein, but i am not sure, and he said he could smell the rotting dead from 5000 ft.
He also never got into an airplane for the rest of his life, even though my mother flew home to Europe many times. She was a war bride.
One theory to at least partially explain why the US and the USSR never directly tangled after WWII is that the Soviet gerontocracy had all too painful memories of the destruction caused by the war and thus, ultimately, were risk averse.
Today 70 years later who among the world's leaders has a living memory of war's horrors?
My grandfather was also a radioman and photographer on B-17s and occasionally B-24s.
He was on the Regensburg mission, Aug 17, 1943. The worst single day in the history of US military aviation.
He had to switch birds at the last minute because of an Oxygen shortage on his normal plane. He saw his crew, flying right next to him in the Dear Mom, under Capt. Nayovitz, shot out of the sky, along with over 600 other men that day.
He got a direct commission after that battle, when he got back from Africa.
He talked about it the rest of his life. Almost every day, and had nightmares his whole life about it.
He'd also talk very happily about the leadership of BG Fredrick Castle, whom he knew well.
My mother was a teenager in occupied Holland. She never talked about the war very much, except for feeling terrible when an allied plane would get shot down, but we were sort of surprised when she mentioned that she still has nightmares in her eighties.
Hey, Garage!
Better put some ice on that.
;-)
(There, I said something liberal.)
Why a doctor, GM? I'm sure plenty of people here are happy to piss on you till you go out.
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