We are in a conservative Islamic country, so we need to be careful. There's no holding hands in public -- this is a Malay Islamic monarchy. We just have to follow one rule: Don't put it out there. It may sound hypocritical from me, but I'm a Muslim. I respect the new law and I support it. Because what I'm doing now, as a gay, it's not right for me to do. It's against the religion. But I have to, because it just came to me. I believe I will go to hell. Sometimes I want to change to be straight -- I've tried -- but I can't. Most of the people I have dated are married people with kids. We have this secret. What to do?"I believe I will go to hell. Really?
११ जून, २०१४
"Inside Grindr, Bruneians are careful and choosy. Sometimes people make private parties..."
"... mostly gay artists and celebrities in Brunei do that."
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Really?
Why is that hard to believe? If you do something that you believe is morally very wrong, in a religion that is not big on forgiveness, why would you not believe that?
Set aside your personal views ( and your imagination of my personal views ) on the moral difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.
Would you find it hard to believe that a Muslim pedophile would think they were going to hell?
I believe I will go to hell. Really?
Yep, he does. Sunni orthodoxy believes that God has pre-ordained the order of all things in creation, including who will be saved & who will be damned.
Straight line Calvinists believe much the same thing --- "predestination for the elect & the reprobate" --- which is why grown men in Calvinist congregations who had not yet had a "salvific experience" would cry out in in despair "How, then, can I be saved?"
Why would you think that the default setting for humanity is to think that they are good, and worthy of Heaven. You really are a 1960's New Jersey lapsed Protestant.
Children of a lesser god.
I think more protests at the Beverly Hills Hotel should make it OK for this guy to come out. Not to leave out hashtags, of course.
She's asking if he really believes, because she thinks that people always act rationally on their real beliefs. Against all evidence, as far as I can see,
"Yep, he does. Sunni orthodoxy believes that God has pre-ordained the order of all things in creation, including who will be saved & who will be damned."
That's the official belief that someone who must profess the religion professes. There's so much coercion there that I look to what he does and don't accept the profession of belief as true belief.
To my eye, it looks silly to say "Sunni orthodoxy believes."
The "orthodoxy" is nothing capable of belief. It may be a set of beliefs, but it takes a human mind to actually believe. Now, it might be that actually believing the required beliefs is not one of the requirements, but just outwardly saying and never denying that you have the beliefs and not doing any of the forbidden actions is the entirety of what the "orthodoxy" requires.
If so, the human mind is negated, and believing -- real beliefs by human beings -- doesn't matter.
That may work very well to keep order and stability in a society, and in our own society, we do not value the interior of our own mind enough, even though we are free to think for ourselves and to notice the reality or unreality of what we say we believe.
Professor, do you or do you not believe in sin? This is the question you avoid with all your sophism. If there is such a thing as good and evil, then the discussion is much more straightforward. Is what you are doing right now sinful or righteous? If it is sinful, God, through all religions, calls on you to change yourself.
The 60's American hippies, like you, wanted and still want the world to change to fit them when it is so clear that people are called to change themselves for the better by God. Hence the pathologies of your generation, abortion, hedonism, narcissism, hubris and, of course, the $18 trillion in debt you are perfectly ok with making other generations pay for. Thanks for taking the wealthiest nation in history and making it the poorest. Hippies rock! Not.
@Prof Althouse,
There's so much coercion there that I look to what he does and don't accept the profession of belief as true belief.
You use the term "coercion", but that word implies far to much of an "outside" external influence on personal behavior.
A Muslim who lives in an observant Muslim culture just sees it as the societal matrix that he inhabits & that inhabits him. There's no "standing outside" of it & looking in. That's a western Enlightenment view, that somehow there's an Archimedean point of rationality where one stands to take in the view. He can't imagine what life would be sundered from family, faith, & country, and his personal happiness is a small price to pay to remain in that matrix, a matrix which he has been told, over & over since the day he was born, is the Will o0f God made manifest on Earth.
"You really are a 1960's New Jersey lapsed Protestant."
Yep.
And one for whom a few years of living in Brunei, or South Sudan, or even Kunming or the Faroe Islands, would do a world of good in providing a somewhat broader base from which to view the world.
[How in the world did my previous attempt read "rule" instead of "view"??? Much as I'd like to blame that on autocorrect...]
I was in the UK for the last few weeks and there has been a political storm there over hardline Islamists possibly taking over some of the government schools in Birmingham. I read a column by a "liberal" Muslim woman about the issue. She told of getting a letter from a gay teenager who was put in an Islamic school there who was terrified of being found out. You see, being gay is a "white people's disease" and no true Muslim can be gay.
A bit of a Muslim Huck Finn.
I was hanging out once with several friends who are openly gay, and one of them told this risque' joke about our relatively conservative southern city:
What does every gay young man in [city] know? The feeling of a wedding band pressing on the back of his neck.
I suspect it will always be thus. Even in the most open and tolerant of societies, there will always be some level of pressure to live the traditional life, and for some, living that traditional life will require that they find alternative avenues to satisfy their sexual desires. In a highly controlled society such as most Islamic states (and many areas in our own country until relatively recently), the alternative avenues must be hidden with even greater care, due to the greater risks of being caught practicing those alternative practices.
There are times when I read something you've written, and I hear Christian Slater as JD in "Heathers" saying "I'm just feeling a little superior right now ..."
Well that poor gay Orthodox Sunni better think Althouse's way or "else".
Of else what?
One's deeply held personal beliefs are just that--one's personal beliefs.
Are those beliefs rational? Would you say that a person who deeply believed in Obama as a "lightworker" in 2009 was rational?
If I don't believe in catastrophic man caused globale warming or whatever, am I a "science denier". Some would call me that, and they believe in their "science" just as much as this gay Muslim believes he's going to Hell. Why will you respect the one and deny the other?
My heart goes out to this man.
My impression is that a lot of "Christians" don't really believe in Hell. And you can make a decent argument about the saving power of Jesus to shut the door on Hell even for sinners (I initially mistyped it as "simmers", which may mean something!).
In the Baptismal Covenant in the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer we say that, "with God's help", "whenever [we] fall into sin, [we will] repent and return to the Lord". I find that "whenever" very comforting.
It seems that Islam doesn't have any equivalent salvic doctrine. So what is the Muslim who commits (what he/she regards as) a sin to do? If he/she were to stop, repent, and never "sin" again, could he/she get into Paradise? I don't know. I suppose if you believe that you're already damned, you might just decide to go ahead and have a good time while you can.
Or maybe you figure that if you become a suicide bomber, all will be forgiven. I don't know. Maybe some commenter can educate me.
that story made me horny.
now i am looking for flights to brunei.
thanks
tits
there is a straight grinder now. some chick at the park was telling me about it.
us gays always start fads that straighties copy
We have much to learn from our non-white, non-western non-Christian betters.
Ignorance is Bliss,
"Why is that hard to believe? If you do something that you believe is morally very wrong, in a religion that is not big on forgiveness, why would you not believe that?"
Um, because you're supposed to be an adult, and if that's true, then the whole red-guy-with-the-horns-and-a-tail kinda sinks the whole project, don't cha think?
This attitude is typical of people in islam, who don't follow every koranic fanaticism & medieval edict. It's not just confined to those who are gay. Same thing applies to many, many others in the islamic world.
@Ann: I have no belief in hell, but I do understand that many things I like to do and am passionate about may carry negative consequences.
If I enjoy base jumping or shooting heroin, I believe, if I am thinking clearly, that these activities may well kill me no matter how enjoyable I find them to do and no matter how boring I find less extreme activities.
Why is that so hard to understand? If hell is real, going there is a consequence of some behaviors.
I think the trouble is that you find it difficult to fathom my saying "you're going to hell" is not a statement of hatred or disgust for you, rather than a description of how I believe the universe to work--much like I might say "You'll break your neck on that skateboard."
This poor man is not hating and judging himself--he believes that the laws of nature will provide an undesirable consequence for his behavior just as much as jumping off a bridge does.
@titus,
I'm sure no one will miss the politicians who can't make the Boston Pride Parade due to the state's Democratic convention.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/06/10/democrats-uproar-worcester-convention-conflicts-with-boston-pride-parade/aJIK2qJrJwdxIGORWXjsBL/story.html
I believe on Hell, but there is the reality there only may be a few people there.
God is a merciful and forgiving God, but then again I believe in Purgatory. A state of condition, in which imperfections/evil is purified before going to Heaven.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
Titus said...
that story made me horny.
now i am looking for flights to brunei.
Write when you find work.
@Renee I believe on Hell, but there is the reality there only may be a few people there.
I had a theology professor way back when who opined that "The Son of God does not die in vain!" He explained that what is impossible for man (salvation) is possible for God, and that at the moment of a person's death, who can know what the creator of the universe - who created everything out an overflow of love - do to save that soul?
God respects free will, of course, and if an individual still rejects salvation, the disaster of hell follows. Better to practice repentance and obedience your entire life and be ready to answer the call of the Master immediately, than to dally with deadly habits and affection for sinful deeds.
@gerry
We don't know who is in Hell. We're not the judging. Just saying the reality, there could be a few or billions.
IMO, hell is the total absence of God, heaven the total unity. I don't/can't understand exactly what that means, but I understand enough to realize that God is love and to be totally separated from love is despair and pain.
The eternal question, does God send people to hell finds an answer; people choose to be with or not to be with God.
I've had hobbies & recreations where one did not ask if it was gonna hurt, just a question of when and how much. I didn't think of it as choosing to hurt, but really... I was a child in the 60's "if it feels good, do it" - ignore, forget, or rationalize the price. But there is a price.
Part of the price for accepting Islaam is accepting their view on homosexuality, conversion to another religion, the role of women, etc. I'm tempted to call it "intolerance," but my bandwidth of the word doesn't include execution.
CStanley: She's asking if he really believes, because she thinks that people always act rationally on their real beliefs. Against all evidence, as far as I can see.
A law professor don't need no steenkin' evidence from relevant fields of inquiry into how human minds actually work, I guess. Her incuriosity in these matters is curious.
YoungHegelian: That's a western Enlightenment view, that somehow there's an Archimedean point of rationality where one stands to take in the view. He can't imagine what life would be sundered from family, faith, & country, and his personal happiness is a small price to pay to remain in that matrix, a matrix which he has been told, over & over since the day he was born, is the Will o0f God made manifest on Earth.
But in Althouse's case the "western Englightenment view" (a 21st century American academics version of this view, anyway) is a matrix itself. Her absolute inability to even imagine an interior life different from her own is on display throughout this and related threads, and particularly comically in her response @3:52 about "Sunni orthodoxy". I don't think she's being disingenuous in trying to make it a quibble about semantics. She can think about these things in the terms that keep her own matrix together, or not at all.
Many people do things that they know are wrong. It says something for their intellectual integrity to recognize that, instead of deciding that anything that they do must be okay.
A lot of now ex-Catholics in my family were inculcated with the hell belief at such a young age that they still are affected by the residue in real, quantifiable ways, so yeah, I believe this guy.
It's perfectly possible to live one way, yet still hold that belief on a deep level and not be able to totally expunge it from your psyche.
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